[Dryerase] Madison Insurgent - Nov/Dec articles - story #3

[the madison insurgent]

The Zen of Zinn: an exclusive interview with the
historian
by Nathan Moore

He’s not a large man. Thin. Wispy gray hair. Lots of
wrinkles. He’s starting to look right grandfatherly
these days.
But while Howard Zinn may show some physical signs of
aging, he’s still sharp, still a strong voice for
democracy and freedom, still writing and lecturing.
Lately, Zinn has been talking a lot about the military
and United States expansionism. These are regular
themes in his writings, but now there’s the looming
question of Iraq to underscore his points. “Democracy
flies out the window as soon as war comes along,” said
Zinn during his October speech at the Orpheum Theatre
in Madison. “If you look at Congressional actions when
a president announces a war, you’ll find the troops
lining up behind the leader.”
The cover of Howard Zinn’s latest book is rather
disconcerting. A United States military plane drops a
score of bombs, destined for some unknown target. Set
against the hazy sky, the book’s title glares out in
red: Terrorism and War.
“The means of war have become so horrible that they
exceed any possible good that could come out of them,”
said Zinn. That is certainly the case now, with the
president outlining his “First Strike” doctrine and
hinting at the use of nuclear weapons. Zinn, quoting
his friend Kurt Vonnegut, said, “Only one country in
the history of the world has been crazy enough to drop
an atomic bomb and turn hundreds of thousands of
people into dust.”
Zinn touched on many subjects during his 60 minute
talk. Most of them were familiar themes from his most
famous work, A People’s History of the United States –
class conflict, oppression, (mis)education, democratic
struggles. “Democracy is the neglected history of our
country,” Zinn asserts. “Democracy has come alive in
this country only when people have rebelled against
the authorities.”
That is the main lesson to draw from Zinn. If we seek
liberation, real democracy, and the chance for
everyone to live flourishing lives, we’ll have to
rebel against authority, in all its forms.
The other important lesson Zinn brings us is his
optimism. There are, unfortunately, too many on the
left who become cynical, depressed, and fatalistic
about things going on all around. It’s easy to give
up. Zinn is hopeful, but in a quiet sort of way.
Radical change won’t happen automatically, but it can
happen, and there are steps we can take to help it
along. “You should not be discouraged by how small a
movement may seem at the beginning of something
critical,” he advised.
Following his lecture, I caught up with Zinn. The
interview was short – he’s a popular guy. It’s printed
here in its entirety.
Nathan Moore: You talked a lot this afternoon about
issues with Iraq right now and of war in general. If
you were going write an update of People’s History,
how would you write up the last couple years? Would
you include war and aggression? How would you approach
that?
Howard Zinn: Well, my history talks about war and
aggression all through American history, so I think I
would have to point out how we are really watching a
continuation of a long history of American expansion.
Except that today the justification for that expansion
is different than it was, say at the beginning of the
cold war, different than it was at the turn of the
century, different than it was in the middle of the
19th century. We’ve always had different rationales
for expansion. We had Manifest Destiny in the middle
of the 19th century. At the turn of the century, we
claimed we were liberating Cuba, saving the
Philippines from everybody else, Christianizing them.
And during the cold war: saving the world from
communism. And today, the rationale is terrorism, but
the common denominator to all of American policy
through its history is expansion of American military,
political, and economic power, first on this continent
and then in the world.
NM: I’d like to ask another question about People’s
History, and that’s about the final chapter in the
revised edition called the “Coming Revolt of the
Guards.” It’s an interesting phrase and an interesting
chapter. How do you foresee that revolt maybe
happening?
HZ: Well, I didn’t give a date, you remember.
[laughs.] I didn’t say when it would happen. But I
suggested that if there was going to be a radical
change in the United States, it would have to come
when the middle classes joined the working classes,
when all of that great Middle America – which so far
has been directed to be hostile to the poor, the
welfare people, people of color, the immigrants – when
that great part of Middle America realizes it has been
deceived, and that its interests are really the same
as the interests of working people. And that the tiny
elite that controls the country and monopolizes the
wealth of the country does not do any good for the
middle classes. And they will realize that they are
the guards of the system, that they are the buffer
between the poor and the rich. And my hope is that at
some point they will understand that, and then there
can be a united movement to really take back the
country from this power elite that now runs it.
NM: Here’s a question for you as someone who’s been
around universities for their career. What’s the role
of an academic in social change and social activism?
HZ: I think the role of academic, first of all should
be distinguished from the role that is usually
assigned to it, the usual orthodox view that the
academic prepares young people to become successful
members of the going society, to fit in with whatever
the society wants it to do. My notion of the role of
the academic is that the role of the academic is to
bring up a new generation of citizens who will look
critically at what is going on and who will become
agents for change. And therefore, in order to
accomplish this, the academic has to violate the
ordinary standards of classroom behavior and teach in
a different way, teach different curriculum, teach
different material, be unashamedly partisan in
representing certain values in the classroom. And also
at the same time, I think the academic must step
outside the classroom, must be active in the
community, must demonstrate to students that it’s not
enough to study the right things and think the right
thoughts, but that it’s important to act out the
beliefs that you develop as a citizen in this society.
So an academic should really have one foot in academia
and one foot in the real world outside.
NM: In the same vein, as far as talking about
universities, there’s a well-established trend in the
last decade or so of universities becoming more
bureaucratic, more profit-oriented, more prone to
stifle dissent. I know you’ve had issues like that
yourself at Boston University. What steps can we take
to counter that trend?
HZ: In order to change the university, you have to
organize. Students have to organize. Faculty have to
organize. The workers of the university have to
organize. You have to think in IWW terms – that is,
have all the people who work for the university decide
to run the university. People who work and study and
teach – they’re the ones who should make decisions for
the university. I think that should be the goal of
creating a real community of education, which would
end the control of education by absentee landlords,
you might say.
NM: One last question before you have to go. If you
could change one thing with a magic wand, what’s the
most pressing problem you would address?
HZ: I see the central problem as the distribution of
wealth and power. The central issue is using the
enormous wealth of the country for human needs. Taking
it away from the military, taking it away from the
super-rich, and using it for what people need.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com