[Peace-discuss] Fear of FEC-less ads
Laurie Solomon
ls1000 at live.com
Sun Jan 24 15:27:44 CST 2010
> If the "serious proposal" succeeds, & a constitutional amendment declares
> that corporations are not persons, you're still going to have to invade
> some real person's First Amendment rights to prevent the broadcast of a
> film that's unpleasant about Hillary.
First, this is true; but we do it everyday. It is unavoidable and part of
the compromises that one must be willing to make and accept in order to have
a functioning society. Secondly, the implications of defining corporations
(actually any incorporated group or association - unions, civic
associations, as well as businesses) as persons extends far beyond First
Amendment rights or free speech. Can corporations in the form of their
representatives run for and hold public office, can corporate entities be
declared by the courts and insane or mentally challenged, can corporate
entities and their officers, shareholders, and employees be fined and jailed
for the same criminal and civil acts as you or I? Thirdly, corporations are
already considered a special class of person different from you or I when it
comes to the tax codes, to legal and civil liability regulations and codes,
to zoning regulations, and a number of other areas. Treating them as if
they were a different type of person than you or I raises the question of
discrimination and special treatment for one class of person over the other.
One can avoid these issues by not making corporate entities legal persons.
As for invading real person's rights or dealing with violations by real
persons, that can be handled by the traditional processes on an individual
basis as has been done in the past. At least in that way real individuals
can be held accountable for their actions - direct or indirect - on their
own behalf or on the behalf of corporate entities without being freed of
liability on the basis that the corporate person is liable not the real
people who are making the decisions and acting on behalf of the corporation.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at illinois.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 1:44 PM
To: "Stuart Levy" <slevy at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Cc: "Peace-discuss List" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Fear of FEC-less ads
> If the "serious proposal" succeeds, & a constitutional amendment declares
> that corporations are not persons, you're still going to have to invade
> some real person's First Amendment rights to prevent the broadcast of a
> film that's unpleasant about Hillary.
>
> It might be better to restrict corporations seriously by statute -
> national charters, limited time and purpose, strict fiduciary
> responsibility, etc.
>
>
> Stuart Levy wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 08:53:20AM -0600, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
>>> Not exactly a special case in a society in which the rich are getting
>>> richer at an accelerating pace, is it?
>>>
>>> Most of the money collected for political campaigns goes to buy
>>> advertising, mostly radio & TV. That was true even in the little Green
>>> party campaign for Congress that you and I were involved in some years
>>> ago.
>>>
>>>
>>> Why not reduce the effectiveness of money in politics by making (prime)
>>> air
>>> time - and other advertising outlets - free to candidates?
>>
>> For that matter, why not consider votes to be speech (after all, they're
>> expressions of opinion), and sell them on the open market?
>>
>> For those who haven't been watching Joe Futrelle's facebook threads, he
>> and
>> others have been bouncing around some ideas. Protected corporate speech
>> can
>> go far. How about a flag-burning company with toasted star-and-striped
>> marshmallows as its logo? Or, "corporate literature"... Wuthering Heinz,
>> or
>> All Quiet on the Best Western Front, or ... well, go and see:
>> http://www.facebook.com/joefutrelle
>>
>> More seriously there's a proposal from at least People for the American
>> Way for a constitutional amendment to declare that corporations are not
>> persons.
>>
>> This makes an even more compelling reason to do a performance of Gilbert
>> and
>> Sullivan's Utopia, Limited. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia,_Limited
>> Maybe at a People's Pot Luck, or an AWARE film event, or something. (I
>> heard
>> of this from Ron Szoke, who was listening to it one day. Favorite quote,
>> said
>> in horror: "He's no longer a person. He's a corporation, and so long as
>> he
>> sticks to his charter, we can't touch him!")
>>
>>
>> You can't revoke the charter of a person, but it should be possible to do
>> so
>> for a badly-behaving corporation.
>>
>>> John W. wrote:
>>>> On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 11:20 PM, C. G. Estabrook
>>>> <galliher at illinois.edu
>>>> <mailto:galliher at illinois.edu>> wrote: [I don't like this guy's
>>>> politics
>>>> much, but I think he may be right about why there has been so much
>>>> weeping and gnashing of teeth about the SC decision in Citizens United
>>>> v.
>>>> FEC. The one clear if perhaps questionable contribution of the
>>>> American
>>>> 20th c. to human civilization since the Neolithic was PR; the fear of
>>>> the
>>>> NYT editorialists et al. is that this SC decision in its madly
>>>> consequent
>>>> way may upset the apple cart. OTOH with Clement of Alexandria in the
>>>> 2nd
>>>> c. CE, I say, "Let a hundred flowers bloom; let a thousand schools of
>>>> thought contend." (I realize the image has been used by others.) --CGE]
>>>> That isn't what happens with PR, Carl. No flowers are blooming when
>>>> the
>>>> corporate PR machine spins out lie upon lie upon lie. To me this
>>>> decision equates "political speech" with "justice". In both cases, in
>>>> the United States at least, you're entitled to as much speech and as
>>>> much
>>>> "justice" as you can afford to pay for. Understanding Liberal Rage Over
>>>> Citizens United by Brian Garst On paper the Citizens United case has
>>>> all
>>>> the makings of a solid liberal issue. First Amendment protections,
>>>> considered sacrosanct by the left when a reporter is leaking classified
>>>> information, are strengthened for those speaking truth to power. Both
>>>> the ACLU and AFL-CIO support the decision. So why are prominent
>>>> liberals
>>>> speaking out so vehemently against it? It would be easy to chalk up
>>>> liberal outrage to a general hatred for all things corporate. But is
>>>> that enough to overcome what otherwise seems like a tailor-made liberal
>>>> issue? After all, the ACLU said “[the prohibition on corporate speech]
>>>> is
>>>> facially unconstitutional under the First Amendment because it permits
>>>> the suppression of core political speech.” Moreover, the corporate
>>>> gains,
>>>> which liberals might feel benefit the right, are offset by those of the
>>>> unions and other liberal issue groups that benefit from the ruling just
>>>> the same. The net political impact is thus neutral, suggesting that
>>>> their opposition isn’t political in nature. Neither is it based on the
>>>> merits. Rather, it is philosophical. Consider the following reactions
>>>> to
>>>> the decision from the left. The New York Times editorialized the
>>>> decision
>>>> as a “blow to democracy,” and a “disastrous 5-to-4 ruling” that “has
>>>> thrust politics back to the robber-baron era of the 19th century.”
>>>> Talk
>>>> about overwrought. President Obama decried the “stampede of special
>>>> interest money” that will somehow “[undermine] the influence of average
>>>> Americans.” Senator Patrick Leahy warned that the decision would
>>>> “change
>>>> the course of our democracy.” And the ever-contemptible Rep. Alan
>>>> Grayson must have been hyperventilating when he declared that “this is
>>>> the worst Supreme Court decision since the Dred Scott case. It leads us
>>>> all down the road to serfdom.” As if these politicians aren’t bad
>>>> enough,
>>>> the liberal blogosphere is even worse, as frantic left-wing bloggers
>>>> and
>>>> their readers have been busy declaring an end to democracy as we know
>>>> it
>>>> ever since the ruling came down. The apocalyptic – and not to mention
>>>> apoplectic – nature of their criticism suggests an answer as to why the
>>>> decision irks them so. Liberals think you are all idiots. American
>>>> voters are simply too stupid to filter so much information and then
>>>> reach
>>>> the right decision. And as they well know, the right decision is
>>>> unquestionably to adopt the liberal position. They, as the learned
>>>> among
>>>> us, know best and so ought to be the only ones allowed to tell you what
>>>> you should think and why you should think it. That way you don’t get
>>>> confused by all those other pesky views and opinions. One wonders how
>>>> we
>>>> ever survived as a nation before the great heroes John McCain and Russ
>>>> Feingold came along to save us from ourselves. At the heart of the
>>>> liberal philosophy of government is a belief that people are too stupid
>>>> to fend for themselves, manage their own affairs or vote for the right
>>>> candidates. Democracy itself will be destroyed because of a few extra
>>>> ads targeting voters before elections? Voters, it seems, just aren’t
>>>> sophisticated enough to handle that much information. Unfortunately for
>>>> the left, the Constitution recognizes rights that all citizens have,
>>>> regardless of how intelligent the editorial board of the New York Times
>>>> thinks a person from Kansas really is. It turns out that “make no law”
>>>> really means that “Congress shall make no law,” even if that law would
>>>> advance the liberal agenda.
>>>>
>>>> http://biggovernment.com/2010/01/23/understanding-liberal-rage-over-citizens-united/
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