[Peace-discuss] [Peace] Adolph Reed says:

Sun Aug 2 15:38:10 UTC 2020

I'm not sure what to do with an alleged equivalence between a national
moral panic with a violent dimension, and Dem campaigns for Congress.
Except for the fact that any Dem candidate, whatever their attributes, will
have to bow to the cult leaders.

But I think at bottom, the problem is I'm David and not Bob, and I don't
see that changing anytime soon.

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 5:51 AM Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com> wrote:

> It's not true that you have no say in what happens in other Congressional
> districts, like in Massachusetts 1 where Alex Morse is running against
> Richard Neal, or in Missouri 1 where Cori Bush [also a Palestinian rights
> advocate] is running against William Lacy Clay. It's true that you don't
> have a vote there. But you could donate money and encourage others to do
> so. You could make phone calls and encourage others to do so. You could
> post about it on social media. You comment on events in Minneapolis, even
> though you don't have a vote in Minneapolis; why the double standard? I
> agree with you about the other stuff, the stupid violence at the protests,
> the ridiculous double standard about creating an exception for social
> distancing guidelines for politically correct protests. But none of that
> justifies your hostile obsession with BLM at the expense of all else.
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 12:06 PM David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Beyond having no say or influence whatsoever in districts in which
>> allegedly decent Dems might be up for election, I think it's also
>> worthwhile to point out that it is dangerous, and pretty scary in a
>> McCarthy/witch hunt "satanic ritual abuse in daycare centers kind of way
>> (1980s), when there is a general, elite consensus around ideas and analyses
>> that are false and dangerous. Like, when they pulled a charred body out of
>> a torched building in Minneapolis a few days ago. Or when two people died
>> as a result of the "Autonomous Zone" in Seattle. Or when there is a
>> resurgence in the pandemic partly related to demonstrations, obviously with
>> lethal consequences. Many ordinary people, unlike many educated people, can
>> probably see that it's outrageous for public health officials to make an
>> exception because "racism is a pandemic," while alleged Trump supporters
>> are vilified for wanting to open up businesses because they are going
>> broke, albeit that is a result of Trump's economic response to the
>> pandemic, albeit the Dems didn't propose and alternative that would have
>> taken care of basic needs until the virus could be suppressed.
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 10:54 AM Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I agree that the "abolition" thing is stupid. So what? Why focus on
>>> that? Why be provoked by that? There's so many other things to focus on
>>> which are so much more important.
>>>
>>> For example: in Massachusetts' First Congressional District, BernieBro
>>> Alex Morse is primarying PelosiBro Richard Neal, chair of the tax
>>> code-writing Ways and Means Committee. Alex Morse is a Jew who supports
>>> Palestinian rights, Medicare for All, Green New Deal. If we get him in
>>> Congress, it's a big deal. If we defeat Richard Neal, it's a big deal. If
>>> we defeat Richard Neal, it sets up a fight for the chair of the Ways and
>>> Means Committee, just like the defeat of Eliot Engel by Jamaal Bowman set
>>> up a fight for the chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee. Joaquin
>>> Castro is running for chair on a platform of ending wars, ending
>>> anti-civilian economic sanctions. This is world-historical, nothing like
>>> this ever happened before, and it wouldn't have happened if Jamaal Bowman
>>> hadn't defeated Eliot Engel.
>>>
>>> Why not focus on things that matter, instead of stupid things?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 11:41 AM David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Not letting go Bob, but thanks for the suggestion anyway. Whatever
>>>> progress might be made regarding the police, the underlying Woke/anarchist
>>>> demands for abolition are unhelpful. In any event, it's fanciful to think
>>>> of BLM as being anything but folded into the neoliberal Democratic Party.
>>>> Beyond that, BLM is part of the ongoing moral panic that we've experienced
>>>> since the election of Trump: Russiagate, #metoo, transgender, cancel
>>>> culture in general.
>>>>
>>>> *Aimee Terese:* I usually have a few different drums I’m beating at
>>>> any given time. I’ve been beating the anarcho-liberalism (Woke) drum for
>>>> quite some time. I think for a lot of people it started to make a bit more
>>>> sense this week as we see these complete wing-nut anarchists, and also the
>>>> Hillary voters all using the same hymn book at once. A lot of people are
>>>> having trouble making sense of that, and I think basically the constituency
>>>> of the Democratic Party at this point is split between PMC
>>>> (professional-managerial class) and then a lot of desperately poor people
>>>> of color. And so the anarchic discontent, regardless of the class content
>>>> of the proponents on the ground, that’s always going to line up behind the
>>>> PMC constituency of the Party because *anarchism is inherently
>>>> petty-bourgeois* in the way it operates.
>>>>
>>>> So that’s why you’re seeing all these rich liberals enjoy the chaos,
>>>> and ultimately—because the Democratic Party is in bed with Silicon Valley,
>>>> finance, and the Feds—they can reinvest in all sorts of surveillance
>>>> technology, an increasing mandate for the use of discretionary force by the
>>>> state. At the same time, the rich suburbanites can have their egos stroked
>>>> with this race-reductionist narrative, knowing that “it’s race not class,”
>>>> that they’re the good ones, the woke ones, and the NGO-industrial complex
>>>> will see another increase in jobs for activists, post-grads, organizers,
>>>> politicians, failed sons, all of that. None of this organizing takes on
>>>> Capital. It’s a self-reinforcing cycle that keeps most of the Democratic
>>>> coalition occupied. As long as they can keep workers divided along
>>>> nationalist ideological lines, then the repressive policing and violence
>>>> and brutality is going to keep happening. But they’ve managed to set up
>>>> this anarchic feedback loop where the more this happens the more this feeds
>>>> its own circular dynamic.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 8:21 AM Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Whether that's true or not, it's not an excuse for you to act in bad
>>>>> faith here.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm in substantial agreement with the Adolph Reed May 2018 critique.
>>>>> But you're invoking it now in a different context to paint "BLM," a diverse
>>>>> movement phenomenon, with too broad a brush. Yes, there is an element which
>>>>> is still like what Adolph Reed described in May 2018. But there are other
>>>>> elements which are not like that.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Police should stop killing unarmed black people" is a concrete
>>>>> demand. You can tell whether we're making progress on it or not. You can
>>>>> easily think of concrete reforms that would contribute to it, and some of
>>>>> these reforms are happening in different places. Banning chokeholds.
>>>>> Licensing cops so abuser cops can't hop from department to department like
>>>>> abuser priests. Mandatory webcams. Mandatory public reporting on use of
>>>>> force statistics. Ending qualified immunity. These things are happening in
>>>>> some states. If Biden wins and Dems take the Senate, there's going to be
>>>>> sweeping national reform.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just in the last week, there was a fight in the Democratic Platform
>>>>> committee over Medicare for All. BernieBros were pushing Medicare for All.
>>>>> BLM was on the side of the BernieBros, demanding that Democrats fight for
>>>>> Medicare for All. BLM has a race-and-class analysis of why we need Medicare
>>>>> for All. Black people are dying from Covid-19 at a higher rate, and it's
>>>>> not just poverty. It's poverty, but it's not just poverty. You control for
>>>>> class, they're still dying at a higher rate. A study just came out on this
>>>>> in the last week. Look it up. There are racial disparities in the health
>>>>> system which are not just class. That's a reason we need Medicare for All.
>>>>> BLM is good on this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jamaal Bowman is a BernieBro. Look it up. He's for Medicare for All,
>>>>> he's for Green New Deal, he's against the wars. In defeating Eliot Engel,
>>>>> he hammered Engel for voting to keep sending cluster bombs to Saudi Arabia.
>>>>>
>>>>> You're off the mark here, David. Use your talents and passion for
>>>>> something productive for justice. Let this go.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 10:41 PM David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> BLM is bad faith from the get-go, the Sanders fiasco. But that's just
>>>>>> the tip of the iceberg.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 9:21 PM Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You're throwing a lot of stuff together there. "BLM" got "under your
>>>>>>> skin," as it were, that much is clear. You cited Adolph Reed dishonestly
>>>>>>> out of context; let's put that act of bad faith to the side. Take your
>>>>>>> grievances against "BLM" one by one. Be honest about what's bothering you.
>>>>>>> Leave Adolph Reed out of it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 9:17 PM David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you look up Michael Tracey's article on Medium about the
>>>>>>>> destruction during and subsequent to "peaceful" protests, you'll see why I
>>>>>>>> oppose BLM in concrete terms. People have died needlessly whose lives were
>>>>>>>> no less valuable than George Floyd. Beyond that, BLM is a bourgeois/PMC
>>>>>>>> movement with no serious class agenda. Indeed it's anti-working class.
>>>>>>>> Moreover, the blatant hypocrisy of gatherings during a pandemic for BLM,
>>>>>>>> vs. harsh criticism of those violating stay-at-home orders for the wrong
>>>>>>>> reasons, Woke self-righteousness gone mad. BLM will end badly and
>>>>>>>> accomplish nothing, except make some rich and others destitute. Having
>>>>>>>> followed the 1619 Project closely, I'm no longer surprised by the
>>>>>>>> monumental arrogance of the current crop of race hustlers. They are all
>>>>>>>> right out of the Obama/Oprah playbook. Opportunists. Collective self-pity
>>>>>>>> by some hyper-priveleged people, acting as if nothing has changed since
>>>>>>>> 1950. And plenty of what can justifiably be called racism.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 7:33 PM Brussel, Morton K <
>>>>>>>> brussel at illinois.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just my 2¢ impressions:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The BLM “movement", which arouses such fervent antagonism by
>>>>>>>>> David, has had worthy manifestations throughout the country, and elsewhere.
>>>>>>>>> I have not seen the evidence that they were financed/supported by Soros
>>>>>>>>> and/or specific groups. There were all kinds of participants in the
>>>>>>>>> protests, aroused by the killing of George Floyd. David seems to relegate
>>>>>>>>> the protests to a false issue; i.e., by ignoring willfully  the crucial
>>>>>>>>> class and revolutionary issues. It’s as if the mass protests were bad,
>>>>>>>>> i.e., counterproductive. But they did reveal the pernicious actions of the
>>>>>>>>> present system and the Trump government, viz Portland. As Karen noted:* …Many
>>>>>>>>> of the people protesting BLM are not part of or members of [a] BLM
>>>>>>>>> organization, they are simply people opposing racism against African
>>>>>>>>> Americans.…*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From Adolph Reed, 2018? in his conclusion: … *that we recognize
>>>>>>>>> that race-reductionist politics is the left wing of neoliberalism and
>>>>>>>>> nothing more. It is openly antagonistic to the idea of a solidaristic left.*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *"Race-reductionist politics" *is simply a epithet: To whom are
>>>>>>>>> race issues reductionist to the exclusion of all else? Is it just
>>>>>>>>> that they are over emphasized by all who feel race issues merit emphasis
>>>>>>>>> and discussion?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Let’s not go overboard.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2020, at 3:11 PM, David Green via Peace-discuss <
>>>>>>>>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bob, I honestly don't think he'd change his general analysis in
>>>>>>>>> any significant way in response to the current situation. He's done lots of
>>>>>>>>> interviews that testify to that in recent weeks, see Jacobin Youtube
>>>>>>>>> channel. Nonsite republished an article of Reed's from 2016
>>>>>>>>> <https://nonsite.org/editorial/how-racial-disparity-does-not-help-make-sense-of-patterns-of-police-violence-2>,
>>>>>>>>> with a new introduction by his co-conspirator Cedric Johnson.
>>>>>>>>> <https://nonsite.org/editorial/the-triumph-of-black-lives-matter-and-neoliberal-redemption>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 11:01 AM Robert Naiman <
>>>>>>>>> naiman.uiuc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is a misleading citation of Adolph Reed. He wrote these
>>>>>>>>>> words in May 2018.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10624-017-9476-3
>>>>>>>>>> <https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10624-017-9476-3>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 6:13 PM David Green via Peace-discuss <
>>>>>>>>>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Neoliberal anarchism. You can read it on their website.
>>>>>>>>>>> Masquerading as "community".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 27, 2020, 5:09 PM Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I know, I understand. What is their stated view on the family?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 27, 2020, at 15:01, David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Reed speaks to a broad audience, admittedly intellectual, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> like Chomsky also to labor leaders.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In any event, I'm cutting BLM no slack. It's analysis is
>>>>>>>>>>>> preposterous, with no material component whatsoever. It's stated view on
>>>>>>>>>>>> the family is disgusting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 27, 2020, 3:42 PM Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I understand what you and Adolph Reed are saying, and it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> should be noted, Adolphe Reed is African American and likely targets
>>>>>>>>>>>>> African Americans when speaking.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me now express my simple interpretation and opinion:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> While we may not support the organization BLM given we know
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are funded by the DNC and Soros as they support neoliberalism, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their criticism of Bernie for his stand on decommodification of education,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc. was counterproductive to helping African Americans, as well as working
>>>>>>>>>>>>> class white Americans, nonetheless I don’t propose opposing them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many of the people protesting BLM are not part of or members
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the BLM organization, they are simply people opposing racism against
>>>>>>>>>>>>> African Americans, nothing wrong with that. Yes, when it first began those
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of us opposing our many wars in the Middle East, and the massacre of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> millions of Muslims, cried out “all lives matter,” meaning “what about the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> millions we are killing now elsewhere in the world who are also not white?”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Today by saying “Black Lives Matter,” it is now inclusive of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> indigenous peoples everywhere, as opposed to just white lives mattering.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are absolutely correct the many problems are a class
>>>>>>>>>>>>> issue, not a race issue, and by making it just about race, not to negate
>>>>>>>>>>>>> African Americans have been targeted and suffer worse due to conditions of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> poverty and racist policy’s,  continues to create division between the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> masses and becomes counterproductive as it ignores the cause, thus
>>>>>>>>>>>>> preventing solutions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Promoting people of color to positions of power initially was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought to be progressive, and it was as it provided opportunity to many,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but not enough, certainly not all, and it supports the power of the ruling
>>>>>>>>>>>>> class providing them with tokens of diversity, as we know, power and money
>>>>>>>>>>>>> corrupts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> One would think the Obama presidency with his failure to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> address the ills of African Americans, and working class, his expansion of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Bush wars from two to eight, bail out of the banks and wall street, as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> well as the implementation of the NDAA which now legitimizes the Trump
>>>>>>>>>>>>> administration bringing federal troops into cities across the nation to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> kidnap, incarcerate or just terrorize protestors, would make it clear
>>>>>>>>>>>>> neither Party has concern for the lives of working class Americans.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The lives of the majority of working class Americans, whatever
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their race, continue to deteriorate as we fight among ourselves. Therefore
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we must keep our focus at all times on our system of capitalism as the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> culprit in need of change.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 26, 2020, at 19:58, David Green via Peace <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Police violence correlates more with class than race. BLM is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in support of Democrats, who are equally if not more responsible for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> neoliberalism and accompanying state violence. Trump is used to justify BLM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> supported destruction in working class urban communities. We should oppose
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Trump and BLM.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 26, 2020, 9:52 PM John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 9:40 PM David Green <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> davidgreen50 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Corporate and foundation funded anti-racism, including BLM,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a bourgeois neoliberal project of the professional-managetial class,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including POC. It is fundamentally antagonistic to the working class. Thus,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we should oppose BLM, which I do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah.  So boiled down to its essence and attempting to put
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matters into plain English, demanding that the police treat Black people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same way they treat white people, and quit murdering unarmed Black
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people wantonly, is somehow antagonistic to the working class?  Asking for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a friend, if I had one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 26, 2020, 9:32 PM John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't understand a single sentence of that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 5:10 PM David Green via Peace <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> “Notwithstanding its performative evocations of the 1960s
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Black Power populist militancy, this antiracist politics is neither leftist
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in itself nor particularly compatible with a left politics as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conventionally understood. At this political juncture, it is, like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bourgeois feminism and other groupist tendencies, an oppositional epicycle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> within hegemonic neoliberalism, one might say a component of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> neoliberalism’s critical self-consciousness; it is thus in fact
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fundamentally *anti-leftist.* Black political elites’
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attacks on the Bernie Sanders 2016 presidential nomination campaign’s call
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for decommodified public higher education as frivolous, irresponsible, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even un-American underscores how deeply embedded this politics is within
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> neoliberalism.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/attachments/20200802/5c6e8655/attachment-0001.htm>