[Peace-discuss] [Peace] Adolph Reed says:

Fri Jul 31 16:06:34 UTC 2020

Beyond having no say or influence whatsoever in districts in which
allegedly decent Dems might be up for election, I think it's also
worthwhile to point out that it is dangerous, and pretty scary in a
McCarthy/witch hunt "satanic ritual abuse in daycare centers kind of way
(1980s), when there is a general, elite consensus around ideas and analyses
that are false and dangerous. Like, when they pulled a charred body out of
a torched building in Minneapolis a few days ago. Or when two people died
as a result of the "Autonomous Zone" in Seattle. Or when there is a
resurgence in the pandemic partly related to demonstrations, obviously with
lethal consequences. Many ordinary people, unlike many educated people, can
probably see that it's outrageous for public health officials to make an
exception because "racism is a pandemic," while alleged Trump supporters
are vilified for wanting to open up businesses because they are going
broke, albeit that is a result of Trump's economic response to the
pandemic, albeit the Dems didn't propose and alternative that would have
taken care of basic needs until the virus could be suppressed.

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 10:54 AM Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I agree that the "abolition" thing is stupid. So what? Why focus on that?
> Why be provoked by that? There's so many other things to focus on which are
> so much more important.
>
> For example: in Massachusetts' First Congressional District, BernieBro
> Alex Morse is primarying PelosiBro Richard Neal, chair of the tax
> code-writing Ways and Means Committee. Alex Morse is a Jew who supports
> Palestinian rights, Medicare for All, Green New Deal. If we get him in
> Congress, it's a big deal. If we defeat Richard Neal, it's a big deal. If
> we defeat Richard Neal, it sets up a fight for the chair of the Ways and
> Means Committee, just like the defeat of Eliot Engel by Jamaal Bowman set
> up a fight for the chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee. Joaquin
> Castro is running for chair on a platform of ending wars, ending
> anti-civilian economic sanctions. This is world-historical, nothing like
> this ever happened before, and it wouldn't have happened if Jamaal Bowman
> hadn't defeated Eliot Engel.
>
> Why not focus on things that matter, instead of stupid things?
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 11:41 AM David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Not letting go Bob, but thanks for the suggestion anyway. Whatever
>> progress might be made regarding the police, the underlying Woke/anarchist
>> demands for abolition are unhelpful. In any event, it's fanciful to think
>> of BLM as being anything but folded into the neoliberal Democratic Party.
>> Beyond that, BLM is part of the ongoing moral panic that we've experienced
>> since the election of Trump: Russiagate, #metoo, transgender, cancel
>> culture in general.
>>
>> *Aimee Terese:* I usually have a few different drums I’m beating at any
>> given time. I’ve been beating the anarcho-liberalism (Woke) drum for quite
>> some time. I think for a lot of people it started to make a bit more sense
>> this week as we see these complete wing-nut anarchists, and also the
>> Hillary voters all using the same hymn book at once. A lot of people are
>> having trouble making sense of that, and I think basically the constituency
>> of the Democratic Party at this point is split between PMC
>> (professional-managerial class) and then a lot of desperately poor people
>> of color. And so the anarchic discontent, regardless of the class content
>> of the proponents on the ground, that’s always going to line up behind the
>> PMC constituency of the Party because *anarchism is inherently
>> petty-bourgeois* in the way it operates.
>>
>> So that’s why you’re seeing all these rich liberals enjoy the chaos, and
>> ultimately—because the Democratic Party is in bed with Silicon Valley,
>> finance, and the Feds—they can reinvest in all sorts of surveillance
>> technology, an increasing mandate for the use of discretionary force by the
>> state. At the same time, the rich suburbanites can have their egos stroked
>> with this race-reductionist narrative, knowing that “it’s race not class,”
>> that they’re the good ones, the woke ones, and the NGO-industrial complex
>> will see another increase in jobs for activists, post-grads, organizers,
>> politicians, failed sons, all of that. None of this organizing takes on
>> Capital. It’s a self-reinforcing cycle that keeps most of the Democratic
>> coalition occupied. As long as they can keep workers divided along
>> nationalist ideological lines, then the repressive policing and violence
>> and brutality is going to keep happening. But they’ve managed to set up
>> this anarchic feedback loop where the more this happens the more this feeds
>> its own circular dynamic.
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 8:21 AM Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Whether that's true or not, it's not an excuse for you to act in bad
>>> faith here.
>>>
>>> I'm in substantial agreement with the Adolph Reed May 2018 critique. But
>>> you're invoking it now in a different context to paint "BLM," a diverse
>>> movement phenomenon, with too broad a brush. Yes, there is an element which
>>> is still like what Adolph Reed described in May 2018. But there are other
>>> elements which are not like that.
>>>
>>> "Police should stop killing unarmed black people" is a concrete demand.
>>> You can tell whether we're making progress on it or not. You can easily
>>> think of concrete reforms that would contribute to it, and some of these
>>> reforms are happening in different places. Banning chokeholds. Licensing
>>> cops so abuser cops can't hop from department to department like abuser
>>> priests. Mandatory webcams. Mandatory public reporting on use of force
>>> statistics. Ending qualified immunity. These things are happening in some
>>> states. If Biden wins and Dems take the Senate, there's going to be
>>> sweeping national reform.
>>>
>>> Just in the last week, there was a fight in the Democratic Platform
>>> committee over Medicare for All. BernieBros were pushing Medicare for All.
>>> BLM was on the side of the BernieBros, demanding that Democrats fight for
>>> Medicare for All. BLM has a race-and-class analysis of why we need Medicare
>>> for All. Black people are dying from Covid-19 at a higher rate, and it's
>>> not just poverty. It's poverty, but it's not just poverty. You control for
>>> class, they're still dying at a higher rate. A study just came out on this
>>> in the last week. Look it up. There are racial disparities in the health
>>> system which are not just class. That's a reason we need Medicare for All.
>>> BLM is good on this.
>>>
>>> Jamaal Bowman is a BernieBro. Look it up. He's for Medicare for All,
>>> he's for Green New Deal, he's against the wars. In defeating Eliot Engel,
>>> he hammered Engel for voting to keep sending cluster bombs to Saudi Arabia.
>>>
>>> You're off the mark here, David. Use your talents and passion for
>>> something productive for justice. Let this go.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 10:41 PM David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> BLM is bad faith from the get-go, the Sanders fiasco. But that's just
>>>> the tip of the iceberg.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 9:21 PM Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You're throwing a lot of stuff together there. "BLM" got "under your
>>>>> skin," as it were, that much is clear. You cited Adolph Reed dishonestly
>>>>> out of context; let's put that act of bad faith to the side. Take your
>>>>> grievances against "BLM" one by one. Be honest about what's bothering you.
>>>>> Leave Adolph Reed out of it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 9:17 PM David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> If you look up Michael Tracey's article on Medium about the
>>>>>> destruction during and subsequent to "peaceful" protests, you'll see why I
>>>>>> oppose BLM in concrete terms. People have died needlessly whose lives were
>>>>>> no less valuable than George Floyd. Beyond that, BLM is a bourgeois/PMC
>>>>>> movement with no serious class agenda. Indeed it's anti-working class.
>>>>>> Moreover, the blatant hypocrisy of gatherings during a pandemic for BLM,
>>>>>> vs. harsh criticism of those violating stay-at-home orders for the wrong
>>>>>> reasons, Woke self-righteousness gone mad. BLM will end badly and
>>>>>> accomplish nothing, except make some rich and others destitute. Having
>>>>>> followed the 1619 Project closely, I'm no longer surprised by the
>>>>>> monumental arrogance of the current crop of race hustlers. They are all
>>>>>> right out of the Obama/Oprah playbook. Opportunists. Collective self-pity
>>>>>> by some hyper-priveleged people, acting as if nothing has changed since
>>>>>> 1950. And plenty of what can justifiably be called racism.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 7:33 PM Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just my 2¢ impressions:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The BLM “movement", which arouses such fervent antagonism by David,
>>>>>>> has had worthy manifestations throughout the country, and elsewhere. I have
>>>>>>> not seen the evidence that they were financed/supported by Soros and/or
>>>>>>> specific groups. There were all kinds of participants in the protests,
>>>>>>> aroused by the killing of George Floyd. David seems to relegate the
>>>>>>> protests to a false issue; i.e., by ignoring willfully  the crucial class
>>>>>>> and revolutionary issues. It’s as if the mass protests were bad, i.e.,
>>>>>>> counterproductive. But they did reveal the pernicious actions of the
>>>>>>> present system and the Trump government, viz Portland. As Karen noted:* …Many
>>>>>>> of the people protesting BLM are not part of or members of [a] BLM
>>>>>>> organization, they are simply people opposing racism against African
>>>>>>> Americans.…*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From Adolph Reed, 2018? in his conclusion: … *that we recognize
>>>>>>> that race-reductionist politics is the left wing of neoliberalism and
>>>>>>> nothing more. It is openly antagonistic to the idea of a solidaristic left.*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *"Race-reductionist politics" *is simply a epithet: To whom are
>>>>>>> race issues reductionist to the exclusion of all else? Is it just
>>>>>>> that they are over emphasized by all who feel race issues merit emphasis
>>>>>>> and discussion?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let’s not go overboard.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2020, at 3:11 PM, David Green via Peace-discuss <
>>>>>>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bob, I honestly don't think he'd change his general analysis in any
>>>>>>> significant way in response to the current situation. He's done lots of
>>>>>>> interviews that testify to that in recent weeks, see Jacobin Youtube
>>>>>>> channel. Nonsite republished an article of Reed's from 2016
>>>>>>> <https://nonsite.org/editorial/how-racial-disparity-does-not-help-make-sense-of-patterns-of-police-violence-2>,
>>>>>>> with a new introduction by his co-conspirator Cedric Johnson.
>>>>>>> <https://nonsite.org/editorial/the-triumph-of-black-lives-matter-and-neoliberal-redemption>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 11:01 AM Robert Naiman <
>>>>>>> naiman.uiuc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is a misleading citation of Adolph Reed. He wrote these words
>>>>>>>> in May 2018.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10624-017-9476-3
>>>>>>>> <https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10624-017-9476-3>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 6:13 PM David Green via Peace-discuss <
>>>>>>>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Neoliberal anarchism. You can read it on their website.
>>>>>>>>> Masquerading as "community".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 27, 2020, 5:09 PM Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I know, I understand. What is their stated view on the family?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 27, 2020, at 15:01, David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Reed speaks to a broad audience, admittedly intellectual, but
>>>>>>>>>> like Chomsky also to labor leaders.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In any event, I'm cutting BLM no slack. It's analysis is
>>>>>>>>>> preposterous, with no material component whatsoever. It's stated view on
>>>>>>>>>> the family is disgusting.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 27, 2020, 3:42 PM Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I understand what you and Adolph Reed are saying, and it should
>>>>>>>>>>> be noted, Adolphe Reed is African American and likely targets African
>>>>>>>>>>> Americans when speaking.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Let me now express my simple interpretation and opinion:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> While we may not support the organization BLM given we know they
>>>>>>>>>>> are funded by the DNC and Soros as they support neoliberalism, and their
>>>>>>>>>>> criticism of Bernie for his stand on decommodification of education, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>> was counterproductive to helping African Americans, as well as working
>>>>>>>>>>> class white Americans, nonetheless I don’t propose opposing them.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Many of the people protesting BLM are not part of or members of
>>>>>>>>>>> the BLM organization, they are simply people opposing racism against
>>>>>>>>>>> African Americans, nothing wrong with that. Yes, when it first began those
>>>>>>>>>>> of us opposing our many wars in the Middle East, and the massacre of
>>>>>>>>>>> millions of Muslims, cried out “all lives matter,” meaning “what about the
>>>>>>>>>>> millions we are killing now elsewhere in the world who are also not white?”
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Today by saying “Black Lives Matter,” it is now inclusive of
>>>>>>>>>>> indigenous peoples everywhere, as opposed to just white lives mattering.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You are absolutely correct the many problems are a class issue,
>>>>>>>>>>> not a race issue, and by making it just about race, not to negate African
>>>>>>>>>>> Americans have been targeted and suffer worse due to conditions of poverty
>>>>>>>>>>> and racist policy’s,  continues to create division between the masses and
>>>>>>>>>>> becomes counterproductive as it ignores the cause, thus preventing
>>>>>>>>>>> solutions.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Promoting people of color to positions of power initially was
>>>>>>>>>>> thought to be progressive, and it was as it provided opportunity to many,
>>>>>>>>>>> but not enough, certainly not all, and it supports the power of the ruling
>>>>>>>>>>> class providing them with tokens of diversity, as we know, power and money
>>>>>>>>>>> corrupts.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> One would think the Obama presidency with his failure to address
>>>>>>>>>>> the ills of African Americans, and working class, his expansion of the Bush
>>>>>>>>>>> wars from two to eight, bail out of the banks and wall street, as well as
>>>>>>>>>>> the implementation of the NDAA which now legitimizes the Trump
>>>>>>>>>>> administration bringing federal troops into cities across the nation to
>>>>>>>>>>> kidnap, incarcerate or just terrorize protestors, would make it clear
>>>>>>>>>>> neither Party has concern for the lives of working class Americans.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The lives of the majority of working class Americans, whatever
>>>>>>>>>>> their race, continue to deteriorate as we fight among ourselves. Therefore
>>>>>>>>>>> we must keep our focus at all times on our system of capitalism as the
>>>>>>>>>>> culprit in need of change.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 26, 2020, at 19:58, David Green via Peace <
>>>>>>>>>>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Police violence correlates more with class than race. BLM is in
>>>>>>>>>>> support of Democrats, who are equally if not more responsible for
>>>>>>>>>>> neoliberalism and accompanying state violence. Trump is used to justify BLM
>>>>>>>>>>> supported destruction in working class urban communities. We should oppose
>>>>>>>>>>> Trump and BLM.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 26, 2020, 9:52 PM John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 9:40 PM David Green <
>>>>>>>>>>>> davidgreen50 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Corporate and foundation funded anti-racism, including BLM, is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a bourgeois neoliberal project of the professional-managetial class,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> including POC. It is fundamentally antagonistic to the working class. Thus,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we should oppose BLM, which I do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah.  So boiled down to its essence and attempting to put
>>>>>>>>>>>> matters into plain English, demanding that the police treat Black people
>>>>>>>>>>>> the same way they treat white people, and quit murdering unarmed Black
>>>>>>>>>>>> people wantonly, is somehow antagonistic to the working class?  Asking for
>>>>>>>>>>>> a friend, if I had one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 26, 2020, 9:32 PM John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't understand a single sentence of that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 5:10 PM David Green via Peace <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> “Notwithstanding its performative evocations of the 1960s
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Black Power populist militancy, this antiracist politics is neither leftist
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in itself nor particularly compatible with a left politics as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conventionally understood. At this political juncture, it is, like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bourgeois feminism and other groupist tendencies, an oppositional epicycle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> within hegemonic neoliberalism, one might say a component of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> neoliberalism’s critical self-consciousness; it is thus in fact
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fundamentally *anti-leftist.* Black political elites’
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attacks on the Bernie Sanders 2016 presidential nomination campaign’s call
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for decommodified public higher education as frivolous, irresponsible, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even un-American underscores how deeply embedded this politics is within
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> neoliberalism.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Peace mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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