From jbn at forestfield.org  Tue Mar  1 00:10:16 2022
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 18:10:16 -0600
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Jimmy Dore is good on Ukraine war
Message-ID: <6a15dc5d-34ed-4b8a-0604-ba93623a20cd@forestfield.org>

Jimmy Dore is live now on multiple services:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=bbX_-QXnKDE
https://rumble.com/vw42fq-debunking-ukraine-war-lies-and-propaganda-snls-hypocritical-ukraine-tribute.html

Also look up Jimmy Dore on rokfin.com. Rokfin requires running Javascript, these 
other sources don't require running Javascript.

I'm sure the interview Jimmy Dore just ended with Aaron Mat? will show up on these 
same services once that interview is uploaded. That interview is highly recommended 
viewing.

Jimmy Dore is one of the few shows on social media getting Ukraine correct. So many 
shows on social media repeat what you can find on establishment media. This 
assessment includes Krystal Ball's new show (allegedly "independent media" if you 
take their funding drive seriously).

Appears to be related:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=5-UJ8S63Tsw -- (1h 33m 58s) "Ukraine on Fire" by Oliver 
Stone. I haven't had a chance to preview all of this.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=pKcmNGvaDUs -- (1h 33m 47s) "Ukraine on Fire" by Oliver 
Stone. I haven't had a chance to preview all of this.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=cJd3Y94etd4 -- (53m 59s) Oliver Stone & Abby Martin: Down 
the JFK Rabbit Hole. I highly recommend this interview.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=JAEybTns0Lg -- (1h 54m 24s) Ukraine: Questions for the US 
Anti-War Movement w/ Abby Martin & Brian Becker.  I haven't had a chance to preview 
all of this.

-J

From jbn at forestfield.org  Wed Mar  2 23:26:58 2022
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 17:26:58 -0600
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Jimmy Dore is good on Ukraine war
In-Reply-To: <6a15dc5d-34ed-4b8a-0604-ba93623a20cd@forestfield.org>
References: <6a15dc5d-34ed-4b8a-0604-ba93623a20cd@forestfield.org>
Message-ID: <9164c4e6-621f-7c02-a9cf-09fffd4aac83@forestfield.org>

Jimmy Dore is live now:
https://rumble.com/vwa69w-yes-those-are-neo-nazis-were-supporting-in-ukraine-state-of-the-union-recap.html
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Ooiwkkq1Qy4
And check out rokfin.com for that feed as well. Rumble.com is the home of the show 
now; all of the segments (including the segments YouTube won't carry) show up on 
Rumble.com.

I wrote:
> Jimmy Dore is live now on multiple services:

Here are some good segments, segments that aired when I wrote the above:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Ask36zoSbgE -- Political Cartoonists Who Get Ukraine RIGHT
https://youtube.com/watch?v=UHixjW8f3_8 -- Condoleezza Rice Admits She?s A War 
Criminal During Ukraine Interview
https://youtube.com/watch?v=5OXilsNv3dc -- Pro-War Media Caught Pushing Fake Ukraine 
Stories
https://youtube.com/watch?v=VOUIMVTAKmQ -- Ukraine Conflict Centered Around Gas 
Pipeline ? Of Course!

and a great background on the Ukraine war (which the US fomented and is working with 
Nazis to keep going):

https://youtube.com/watch?v=mffCvWZujWA -- What the Media Is HIDING About Ukraine/Russia

-J

From brussel at illinois.edu  Thu Mar  3 04:50:19 2022
From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 04:50:19 +0000
Subject: [Peace-discuss] An exchange
Message-ID: <D41C5D44-96F8-4E09-8E0B-D2C5C0240A7C@illinois.edu>

You might be interested. I thought I would wade into this blast at Russia by these peace groups. My initial remarks were to Marcy at CODEPINK, a group I?ve usually supported.

Mort

Begin forwarded message:

From: "Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com<mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion
Date: March 2, 2022 at 5:05:56 PM CST
To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com<mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>>
Cc: "Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com<mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>, "rowleyclan at earthlink.net<mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>" <rowleyclan at earthlink.net<mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>>, "<wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com<mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>" <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com<mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>

Naive, and worse, in that the statement overlooks(?) and ignores the reason for this crisis in the first place. The US-NATO-Ukraine refusal to consider what Putin/Russia was reasonably demanding for strategic stability, its security. You don?t ask why there was such denial. And now we have a state of turmoil looking, as was the initial intention, to demean and demonize Russia.  Who will profit for this?

On Mar 2, 2022, at 11:54 AM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com<mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:

Just to be clear, CODEPINK's principal positions are: Russian troops out of Ukraine, Ceasefire now, Negotiations without preconditions,
No NATO Expansion, Neutrality for Ukraine, No weapons to Ukraine, only humanitarian support; No blanket sanctions that will hurt
the Russian people as opposed to the oligarchs.

I disagree with those who condemn peace groups for opposing the war in Ukraine, the full-scale Russian invasion and high-alert nuclear
status. Putin's military aggression, not the peace movement's objection to war as a problem-solver, is what will empower NATO and the most
warmongering elements of our government. One can be anti-imperialist without being pro-war.



On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 7:04 AM rowleyclan at earthlink.net<mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net> <rowleyclan at earthlink.net<mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>> wrote:
Exactly right, Morton! It's amazing how so much US-NATO imperialist history of illegal wars of aggression and inciting of violent regime changes in dozens of foreign countries (all to achieve their well-publicized goal since WWII of achieving unipolar, full spectrum dominance) is so quickly and fully erased in the minds of the various "peace" groups here, making their response to the situation in Ukraine so one-sided.  This morphing of liberal "peace" groups and lessening of internal resistance to US-NATO's bloody trajectory (since the costs of war upon Americans were made nearly invisible after Vietnam<https://consortiumnews.com/2018/02/04/recipe-concocted-for-perpetual-war-is-a-bitter-one/>) already became more obvious with Obama-Hillary's continuation of post 9-11 wars and bombing of Libya and Syria.

But living in this imperial, exceptionalist and so effectively propagandized U.S.-NATO bubble makes it understandably difficult for most, even in the "peace movement" to remain fully empathetic with those foreigners experiencing the actual costs of war and objective/critical-thinking in their assessment of proportional blame for the current bloodshed.  Unfortunately we see most "peace" groups here quite seduced by Samantha Power type "humanitarian imperialism," subsequently engaging more to protest the "enemy" Russia than to protest their own government's greater responsibility.  Obviously it takes two to tango so it's true both sides bear some (although not equal) responsibility in launching this war.  But the task for Americans should be to protest our own government's actions instead of demonizing/protesting Russia and siding, even somewhat siding, with U.S.-NATO's actions and continued war propaganda.

  So while it IS fine and good for the Russian people to protest their own government's actions (and same for Ukrainians to protest their own government), it should be the same for Americans and Europeans, to protest their own governments' involvement.  Americans who protest (the "enemy") Russia are just IMHO aiding and abetting U.S.-NATO's continued militarism and war plans, which almost always entail "leading from behind" by arming proxy forces, in this case using/exploiting poor Ukrainians.

Coleen Rowley


"Power is always dangerous. Power attracts the worst and corrupts the best." --Edward Abbey



-----Original Message-----
From: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com<mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>
Sent: Mar 1, 2022 11:20 PM
To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com<mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>>
Cc: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com<mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>, <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com<mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>> <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com<mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>
Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion



Marcy,
 I consider the current conflict as a continuation of US determination to remain a unipolar hegemon, and Russia (and China, Cuba, Venezuela,?) is one of the few powerful nations to oppose it.  Russia is therefore considered to be an enemy of the US, and thus all is acceptable to undermine it. A similar logic applies for China. NATO is an instrument of this US policy, and Ukraine is a useful agent to further US aims.

We all know that the US and NATO have violated international rules against aggressive wars multiple times,  aggressions against Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan, not to mention Yugoslavia, Syria and Palestine. Now that Russia has struck back, we have this chorus of condemnation.

What is really at stake is whether the US can continue its imperial campaigns unhindered. Russia presents a major hindrance.

Yes, it is horrible that civilians are caught in the middle of this struggle, but the fundmental reasons for the struggle are geopolitical.  To have a stable world politically, the vital security  interests of both sides must be respected. This has not been done, despite claims that there always exist nonviolent and  just solutions. In some sense, as Putin has claimed,  the attack on Ukraine is defensive. He has come to understand  the US determination to subdue Russia, and he is trying to negate it,  to deal with it.  ?He" represents Russian interests. He may fail, but I sympathize with his quandary, just as I sympathize with those trapped in the middle of the conflict. Most people want peace, but not all, including the US administration and NATO which is delighted to have Ukrainians advance its ends.

 I?m outraged by US policies.  The resistance by Russia to US/NATO depredations are mostly welcome, and I regret what many on the left are doing by their harsh condemnations of Russia. The ubiquity of these condemnations by peace groups serves to strengthen and mitigate the imperial acts of the US/NATO complex. This, despite supposedly balanced criticisms of US/NATO policies by some of these groups.

?mkb

On Feb 28, 2022, at 7:30 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com<mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:
Morton, while there's no denying that NATO and the US have played a detrimental role in securing world peace & in encircling Russia and
going back on promises, etc., the bottom line is none of that excuses the Russian invasion of Ukraine---war, as we say, is not the answer. As for
the mention of Chernoybl, it must not be lost on any of us that there are 15 nuclear reactors in Ukraine, all of which pose a risk in normal times,
let alone during a war when weapons, even if not intended, can hit a reactor to contaminate land and water. Putin's decision to issue veiled threats
to launch nuclear weapons against NATO members and place his nuclear arsenal on high alert is way out of bounds and underscores the importance
of nuclear abolition. Marcy

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 3:34 PM Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com<mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>> wrote:
What is wrong with this statement is that it strongly condemns Russia, but only criticizes US/NATO, and too late in the statement at that.

 NATO/US/Ukraine refused to consider the so-called red lines that Russia warned should not be crossed. It disregards the Russian point of view. It does not consider what the US would do if analogous threats were evident at US borders.  Russia asserted in writing what it considered necessary conditions for its security, conditions ignored by NATO/US. Russia could back off no further. On a related issue Ukraine/US/NATO talked about the Minsk accords but in fact ignored those accords.   Negotiations went nowhere.

So who is reponsible for what has now occurred? You have succumbed to a bandwagon of condemnation.

Moreover, alarmist and ignorant comments about the Chernobyl reactor are ill considered; Russian forces have been very much aware that its safety should be ensured.  On the other hand, the nuclear issue should be front and center on everybody?s mind.

As for the rest, you make cogent points. But on the whole the statement is disappointing.   Meanwhile, more weaponry, troops are flooding into the region and sanctions applied so as to  weaken Russia, actions consistent with prior statements on various occasions that Russia (and China) are US  enemies.

Very dangerous.



On Feb 28, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com<mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:

https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo__;!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR5eKNuD9g$>

CODEPINK Says Stop the War in Ukraine: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion


CODEPINK strongly condemns Russia?s invasion of Ukraine, where over 350,000 civilians have fled the country in fear of explosive weapons and missile attacks, while remaining residents from eastern to western Ukraine seek refuge in underground subways and bomb shelters. As an international peace organization, we call for an immediate ceasefire, negotiations without preconditions, withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine, an end to NATO expansion and a return to the negotiating table to address the security interests of all stakeholders. We stand in solidarity with the Ukrainian people under vicious attack and with the thousands of courageous Russian anti-war activists risking arrest and imprisonment to protest in the streets of Moscow and St. Petersburg.

There is no military solution to the conflict over Ukraine, a country caught in the crossfire between the United States and Russia, the world?s two most heavily armed nuclear nations. While we denounce Putin?s reckless veiled threat to launch nuclear weapons against NATO countries, we also recognize the United States government is culpable in the proliferation and deployment of nuclear weapons, and must reverse course on its decision to pursue nuclear rearmament and instead advance verifiable agreements for global nuclear disarmament.

In condemning Putin?s invasion of a sovereign country, the shelling of a Ukrainian hospital, the tanks closing in on Kyiv, we understand the U.S. has played a major role in exacerbating this conflict, facilitating a 2014 coup to overthrow the democratically elected leader of Ukraine and breaking promises not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, where offensive missiles in Romania and Poland could reach Russia in minutes.

Though some will argue NATO is a defensive alliance of 30 countries, we view NATO as a threat to world peace with its military encirclement of Russia and support for U.S. military aggression in Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya, where an estimated million died under a rain of bombs and millions more were displaced. NATO?s aggressive stance on China, another nuclear-armed nation, also threatens world peace and efforts to unite in the face of existential climate catastrophe.

In advance of the NATO summit in June, CODEPINK calls for an international security agreement to protect the interests of all Europeans to remain free from war and occupation. Such an agreement should have been forged after the fall of the Soviet Union and dissolution of the Warsaw Pact; instead the U.S. and NATO sought further militarization in a continuance of the Cold War that spawned multiple hot wars, from Korea to Vietnam.

To prevent further fighting in Ukraine, to stop the loss of life, bloodshed and grave environmental degradation from the bombing of munitions plants, let us return to the 2015 Minsk II agreement that established a blueprint for peace and an end to the civil war rocking eastern Ukraine. Ukraine should be a neutral country; its incorporation into NATO should be off the table as a starting point for diplomacy.

During this perilous time, when further military escalation could trigger a Chernobyl radioactive meltdown or push us to the brink of nuclear annihilation, we urge President Biden and Congress to stop the flow of weapons to Ukraine, offer humanitarian assistance and safe refuge instead, renew lapsed arms control treaties (Anti-Ballistic Missile, Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces, Open Skies) the U.S. abandoned with Russia, and reject the imposition of massive sanctions that will harm the Russian people who, like us, want peace and security.

Blanket sanctions on the entire Russian economy could spread economic and environmental hardship to Europe and potentially the global community with energy price hikes that may reduce energy consumption in the short term but prompt more oil drilling and lethal burning of fossil fuels in the long term.

In solidarity with anti-war protesters in Russia and across Europe, we call on the world?s peace-loving people, including conscripted front-line soldiers, to join us in a massive unified response to say:

No to War in Ukraine; Yes to Negotiations and Peace.


--
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Begin forwarded message:

From: "Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com<mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion
Date: March 2, 2022 at 5:05:56 PM CST
To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com<mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>>
Cc: "Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com<mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>, "rowleyclan at earthlink.net<mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>" <rowleyclan at earthlink.net<mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>>, "<wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com<mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>" <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com<mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>

Naive, and worse, in that the statement overlooks(?) and ignores the reason for this crisis in the first place. The US-NATO-Ukraine refusal to consider what Putin/Russia was reasonably demanding for strategic stability, its security. You don?t ask why there was such denial. And now we have a state of turmoil looking, as was the initial intention, to demean and demonize Russia.  Who will profit for this?

On Mar 2, 2022, at 11:54 AM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com<mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:

Just to be clear, CODEPINK's principal positions are: Russian troops out of Ukraine, Ceasefire now, Negotiations without preconditions,
No NATO Expansion, Neutrality for Ukraine, No weapons to Ukraine, only humanitarian support; No blanket sanctions that will hurt
the Russian people as opposed to the oligarchs.

I disagree with those who condemn peace groups for opposing the war in Ukraine, the full-scale Russian invasion and high-alert nuclear
status. Putin's military aggression, not the peace movement's objection to war as a problem-solver, is what will empower NATO and the most
warmongering elements of our government. One can be anti-imperialist without being pro-war.



On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 7:04 AM rowleyclan at earthlink.net<mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net> <rowleyclan at earthlink.net<mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>> wrote:
Exactly right, Morton! It's amazing how so much US-NATO imperialist history of illegal wars of aggression and inciting of violent regime changes in dozens of foreign countries (all to achieve their well-publicized goal since WWII of achieving unipolar, full spectrum dominance) is so quickly and fully erased in the minds of the various "peace" groups here, making their response to the situation in Ukraine so one-sided.  This morphing of liberal "peace" groups and lessening of internal resistance to US-NATO's bloody trajectory (since the costs of war upon Americans were made nearly invisible after Vietnam<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://consortiumnews.com/2018/02/04/recipe-concocted-for-perpetual-war-is-a-bitter-one/__;!!DZ3fjg!rqGCLR3hEZ8fxEXrec0z3FsREAPmaDf6bYSm2a5TPSU2awY4CY0yJ-zE7_xkvvxHhw$>) already became more obvious with Obama-Hillary's continuation of post 9-11 wars and bombing of Libya and Syria.

But living in this imperial, exceptionalist and so effectively propagandized U.S.-NATO bubble makes it understandably difficult for most, even in the "peace movement" to remain fully empathetic with those foreigners experiencing the actual costs of war and objective/critical-thinking in their assessment of proportional blame for the current bloodshed.  Unfortunately we see most "peace" groups here quite seduced by Samantha Power type "humanitarian imperialism," subsequently engaging more to protest the "enemy" Russia than to protest their own government's greater responsibility.  Obviously it takes two to tango so it's true both sides bear some (although not equal) responsibility in launching this war.  But the task for Americans should be to protest our own government's actions instead of demonizing/protesting Russia and siding, even somewhat siding, with U.S.-NATO's actions and continued war propaganda.

  So while it IS fine and good for the Russian people to protest their own government's actions (and same for Ukrainians to protest their own government), it should be the same for Americans and Europeans, to protest their own governments' involvement.  Americans who protest (the "enemy") Russia are just IMHO aiding and abetting U.S.-NATO's continued militarism and war plans, which almost always entail "leading from behind" by arming proxy forces, in this case using/exploiting poor Ukrainians.

Coleen Rowley


"Power is always dangerous. Power attracts the worst and corrupts the best." --Edward Abbey



-----Original Message-----
From: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com<mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>
Sent: Mar 1, 2022 11:20 PM
To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com<mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>>
Cc: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com<mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>, <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com<mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>> <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com<mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>
Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion



Marcy,
 I consider the current conflict as a continuation of US determination to remain a unipolar hegemon, and Russia (and China, Cuba, Venezuela,?) is one of the few powerful nations to oppose it.  Russia is therefore considered to be an enemy of the US, and thus all is acceptable to undermine it. A similar logic applies for China. NATO is an instrument of this US policy, and Ukraine is a useful agent to further US aims.

We all know that the US and NATO have violated international rules against aggressive wars multiple times,  aggressions against Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan, not to mention Yugoslavia, Syria and Palestine. Now that Russia has struck back, we have this chorus of condemnation.

What is really at stake is whether the US can continue its imperial campaigns unhindered. Russia presents a major hindrance.

Yes, it is horrible that civilians are caught in the middle of this struggle, but the fundmental reasons for the struggle are geopolitical.  To have a stable world politically, the vital security  interests of both sides must be respected. This has not been done, despite claims that there always exist nonviolent and  just solutions. In some sense, as Putin has claimed,  the attack on Ukraine is defensive. He has come to understand  the US determination to subdue Russia, and he is trying to negate it,  to deal with it.  ?He" represents Russian interests. He may fail, but I sympathize with his quandary, just as I sympathize with those trapped in the middle of the conflict. Most people want peace, but not all, including the US administration and NATO which is delighted to have Ukrainians advance its ends.

 I?m outraged by US policies.  The resistance by Russia to US/NATO depredations are mostly welcome, and I regret what many on the left are doing by their harsh condemnations of Russia. The ubiquity of these condemnations by peace groups serves to strengthen and mitigate the imperial acts of the US/NATO complex. This, despite supposedly balanced criticisms of US/NATO policies by some of these groups.

?mkb

On Feb 28, 2022, at 7:30 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com<mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:
Morton, while there's no denying that NATO and the US have played a detrimental role in securing world peace & in encircling Russia and
going back on promises, etc., the bottom line is none of that excuses the Russian invasion of Ukraine---war, as we say, is not the answer. As for
the mention of Chernoybl, it must not be lost on any of us that there are 15 nuclear reactors in Ukraine, all of which pose a risk in normal times,
let alone during a war when weapons, even if not intended, can hit a reactor to contaminate land and water. Putin's decision to issue veiled threats
to launch nuclear weapons against NATO members and place his nuclear arsenal on high alert is way out of bounds and underscores the importance
of nuclear abolition. Marcy

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 3:34 PM Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com<mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>> wrote:
What is wrong with this statement is that it strongly condemns Russia, but only criticizes US/NATO, and too late in the statement at that.

 NATO/US/Ukraine refused to consider the so-called red lines that Russia warned should not be crossed. It disregards the Russian point of view. It does not consider what the US would do if analogous threats were evident at US borders.  Russia asserted in writing what it considered necessary conditions for its security, conditions ignored by NATO/US. Russia could back off no further. On a related issue Ukraine/US/NATO talked about the Minsk accords but in fact ignored those accords.   Negotiations went nowhere.

So who is reponsible for what has now occurred? You have succumbed to a bandwagon of condemnation.

Moreover, alarmist and ignorant comments about the Chernobyl reactor are ill considered; Russian forces have been very much aware that its safety should be ensured.  On the other hand, the nuclear issue should be front and center on everybody?s mind.

As for the rest, you make cogent points. But on the whole the statement is disappointing.   Meanwhile, more weaponry, troops are flooding into the region and sanctions applied so as to  weaken Russia, actions consistent with prior statements on various occasions that Russia (and China) are US  enemies.

Very dangerous.



On Feb 28, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com<mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:

https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo__;!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR5eKNuD9g$>

CODEPINK Says Stop the War in Ukraine: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion


CODEPINK strongly condemns Russia?s invasion of Ukraine, where over 350,000 civilians have fled the country in fear of explosive weapons and missile attacks, while remaining residents from eastern to western Ukraine seek refuge in underground subways and bomb shelters. As an international peace organization, we call for an immediate ceasefire, negotiations without preconditions, withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine, an end to NATO expansion and a return to the negotiating table to address the security interests of all stakeholders. We stand in solidarity with the Ukrainian people under vicious attack and with the thousands of courageous Russian anti-war activists risking arrest and imprisonment to protest in the streets of Moscow and St. Petersburg.

There is no military solution to the conflict over Ukraine, a country caught in the crossfire between the United States and Russia, the world?s two most heavily armed nuclear nations. While we denounce Putin?s reckless veiled threat to launch nuclear weapons against NATO countries, we also recognize the United States government is culpable in the proliferation and deployment of nuclear weapons, and must reverse course on its decision to pursue nuclear rearmament and instead advance verifiable agreements for global nuclear disarmament.

In condemning Putin?s invasion of a sovereign country, the shelling of a Ukrainian hospital, the tanks closing in on Kyiv, we understand the U.S. has played a major role in exacerbating this conflict, facilitating a 2014 coup to overthrow the democratically elected leader of Ukraine and breaking promises not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, where offensive missiles in Romania and Poland could reach Russia in minutes.

Though some will argue NATO is a defensive alliance of 30 countries, we view NATO as a threat to world peace with its military encirclement of Russia and support for U.S. military aggression in Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya, where an estimated million died under a rain of bombs and millions more were displaced. NATO?s aggressive stance on China, another nuclear-armed nation, also threatens world peace and efforts to unite in the face of existential climate catastrophe.

In advance of the NATO summit in June, CODEPINK calls for an international security agreement to protect the interests of all Europeans to remain free from war and occupation. Such an agreement should have been forged after the fall of the Soviet Union and dissolution of the Warsaw Pact; instead the U.S. and NATO sought further militarization in a continuance of the Cold War that spawned multiple hot wars, from Korea to Vietnam.

To prevent further fighting in Ukraine, to stop the loss of life, bloodshed and grave environmental degradation from the bombing of munitions plants, let us return to the 2015 Minsk II agreement that established a blueprint for peace and an end to the civil war rocking eastern Ukraine. Ukraine should be a neutral country; its incorporation into NATO should be off the table as a starting point for diplomacy.

During this perilous time, when further military escalation could trigger a Chernobyl radioactive meltdown or push us to the brink of nuclear annihilation, we urge President Biden and Congress to stop the flow of weapons to Ukraine, offer humanitarian assistance and safe refuge instead, renew lapsed arms control treaties (Anti-Ballistic Missile, Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces, Open Skies) the U.S. abandoned with Russia, and reject the imposition of massive sanctions that will harm the Russian people who, like us, want peace and security.

Blanket sanctions on the entire Russian economy could spread economic and environmental hardship to Europe and potentially the global community with energy price hikes that may reduce energy consumption in the short term but prompt more oil drilling and lethal burning of fossil fuels in the long term.

In solidarity with anti-war protesters in Russia and across Europe, we call on the world?s peace-loving people, including conscripted front-line soldiers, to join us in a massive unified response to say:

No to War in Ukraine; Yes to Negotiations and Peace.


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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  3 12:07:40 2022
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (karen aram)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 06:07:40 -0600
Subject: [Peace-discuss] An exchange
In-Reply-To: <D41C5D44-96F8-4E09-8E0B-D2C5C0240A7C@illinois.edu>
References: <D41C5D44-96F8-4E09-8E0B-D2C5C0240A7C@illinois.edu>
Message-ID: <CH0PR19MB5314512981936BFAF7F64EA5A3049@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>

Mort

I couldn?t agree with you more. This has been my point, and you have said it so well. I?m pleased to see Colleen Rowley's statement supporting your views as well. It?s interesting  in that she a former CIA legal expert sounds very much like Noam Chomsky, on this very topic in warning what may come if the USG doesn?t stop expanding Nato. 

There are many of us taking this position, but unfortunately most people and some of the peace groups are focusing too much on simply ?anti-war, stop the fighting.? Which is not going to solve the problem, when focusing on other nations, governments than their own. It provides a veneer of that which is not a simple, "russia is bad," that the USG and our corporate owned media promotes. 

Thank you


> On Mar 2, 2022, at 10:50 PM, Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu> wrote:
> 
> You might be interested. I thought I would wade into this blast at Russia by these peace groups. My initial remarks were to Marcy at CODEPINK, a group I?ve usually supported.
> 
> Mort
> 
>> Begin forwarded message:
>> 
>> From: "Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>
>> Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion
>> Date: March 2, 2022 at 5:05:56 PM CST
>> To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>>
>> Cc: "Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>, "rowleyclan at earthlink.net <mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>" <rowleyclan at earthlink.net <mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>>, "<wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>" <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>
>> 
>> Naive, and worse, in that the statement overlooks(?) and ignores the reason for this crisis in the first place. The US-NATO-Ukraine refusal to consider what Putin/Russia was reasonably demanding for strategic stability, its security. You don?t ask why there was such denial. And now we have a state of turmoil looking, as was the initial intention, to demean and demonize Russia.  Who will profit for this?
>> 
>>> On Mar 2, 2022, at 11:54 AM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Just to be clear, CODEPINK's principal positions are: Russian troops out of Ukraine, Ceasefire now, Negotiations without preconditions,
>>> No NATO Expansion, Neutrality for Ukraine, No weapons to Ukraine, only humanitarian support; No blanket sanctions that will hurt
>>> the Russian people as opposed to the oligarchs.
>>> 
>>> I disagree with those who condemn peace groups for opposing the war in Ukraine, the full-scale Russian invasion and high-alert nuclear
>>> status. Putin's military aggression, not the peace movement's objection to war as a problem-solver, is what will empower NATO and the most
>>> warmongering elements of our government. One can be anti-imperialist without being pro-war.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 7:04 AM rowleyclan at earthlink.net <mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net> <rowleyclan at earthlink.net <mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>>> Exactly right, Morton! It's amazing how so much US-NATO imperialist history of illegal wars of aggression and inciting of violent regime changes in dozens of foreign countries (all to achieve their well-publicized goal since WWII of achieving unipolar, full spectrum dominance) is so quickly and fully erased in the minds of the various "peace" groups here, making their response to the situation in Ukraine so one-sided.  This morphing of liberal "peace" groups and lessening of internal resistance to US-NATO's bloody trajectory (since the costs of war upon Americans were made nearly invisible after Vietnam <https://consortiumnews.com/2018/02/04/recipe-concocted-for-perpetual-war-is-a-bitter-one/>) already became more obvious with Obama-Hillary's continuation of post 9-11 wars and bombing of Libya and Syria.   
>>> 
>>> But living in this imperial, exceptionalist and so effectively propagandized U.S.-NATO bubble makes it understandably difficult for most, even in the "peace movement" to remain fully empathetic with those foreigners experiencing the actual costs of war and objective/critical-thinking in their assessment of proportional blame for the current bloodshed.  Unfortunately we see most "peace" groups here quite seduced by Samantha Power type "humanitarian imperialism," subsequently engaging more to protest the "enemy" Russia than to protest their own government's greater responsibility.  Obviously it takes two to tango so it's true both sides bear some (although not equal) responsibility in launching this war.  But the task for Americans should be to protest our own government's actions instead of demonizing/protesting Russia and siding, even somewhat siding, with U.S.-NATO's actions and continued war propaganda.  
>>> 
>>>   So while it IS fine and good for the Russian people to protest their own government's actions (and same for Ukrainians to protest their own government), it should be the same for Americans and Europeans, to protest their own governments' involvement.  Americans who protest (the "enemy") Russia are just IMHO aiding and abetting U.S.-NATO's continued militarism and war plans, which almost always entail "leading from behind" by arming proxy forces, in this case using/exploiting poor Ukrainians.  
>>> 
>>> Coleen Rowley   
>>> 
>>>  
>>> "Power is always dangerous. Power attracts the worst and corrupts the best." --Edward Abbey
>>>  
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>
>>> Sent: Mar 1, 2022 11:20 PM
>>> To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>>
>>> Cc: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>, <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>> <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>
>>> Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion
>>> 
>>>  
>>> Marcy, 
>>>  I consider the current conflict as a continuation of US determination to remain a unipolar hegemon, and Russia (and China, Cuba, Venezuela,?) is one of the few powerful nations to oppose it.  Russia is therefore considered to be an enemy of the US, and thus all is acceptable to undermine it. A similar logic applies for China. NATO is an instrument of this US policy, and Ukraine is a useful agent to further US aims.
>>>  
>>> We all know that the US and NATO have violated international rules against aggressive wars multiple times,  aggressions against Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan, not to mention Yugoslavia, Syria and Palestine. Now that Russia has struck back, we have this chorus of condemnation.  
>>>  
>>> What is really at stake is whether the US can continue its imperial campaigns unhindered. Russia presents a major hindrance.
>>>  
>>> Yes, it is horrible that civilians are caught in the middle of this struggle, but the fundmental reasons for the struggle are geopolitical.  To have a stable world politically, the vital security  interests of both sides must be respected. This has not been done, despite claims that there always exist nonviolent and  just solutions. In some sense, as Putin has claimed,  the attack on Ukraine is defensive. He has come to understand  the US determination to subdue Russia, and he is trying to negate it,  to deal with it.  ?He" represents Russian interests. He may fail, but I sympathize with his quandary, just as I sympathize with those trapped in the middle of the conflict. Most people want peace, but not all, including the US administration and NATO which is delighted to have Ukrainians advance its ends. 
>>>  
>>>  I?m outraged by US policies.  The resistance by Russia to US/NATO depredations are mostly welcome, and I regret what many on the left are doing by their harsh condemnations of Russia. The ubiquity of these condemnations by peace groups serves to strengthen and mitigate the imperial acts of the US/NATO complex. This, despite supposedly balanced criticisms of US/NATO policies by some of these groups.
>>>  
>>> ?mkb
>>> 
>>> On Feb 28, 2022, at 7:30 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Morton, while there's no denying that NATO and the US have played a detrimental role in securing world peace & in encircling Russia and
>>> going back on promises, etc., the bottom line is none of that excuses the Russian invasion of Ukraine---war, as we say, is not the answer. As for
>>> the mention of Chernoybl, it must not be lost on any of us that there are 15 nuclear reactors in Ukraine, all of which pose a risk in normal times,
>>> let alone during a war when weapons, even if not intended, can hit a reactor to contaminate land and water. Putin's decision to issue veiled threats
>>> to launch nuclear weapons against NATO members and place his nuclear arsenal on high alert is way out of bounds and underscores the importance
>>> of nuclear abolition. Marcy
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 3:34 PM Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> What is wrong with this statement is that it strongly condemns Russia, but only criticizes US/NATO, and too late in the statement at that.  
>>>  
>>>  NATO/US/Ukraine refused to consider the so-called red lines that Russia warned should not be crossed. It disregards the Russian point of view. It does not consider what the US would do if analogous threats were evident at US borders.  Russia asserted in writing what it considered necessary conditions for its security, conditions ignored by NATO/US. Russia could back off no further. On a related issue Ukraine/US/NATO talked about the Minsk accords but in fact ignored those accords.   Negotiations went nowhere. 
>>>  
>>> So who is reponsible for what has now occurred? You have succumbed to a bandwagon of condemnation. 
>>>  
>>> Moreover, alarmist and ignorant comments about the Chernobyl reactor are ill considered; Russian forces have been very much aware that its safety should be ensured.  On the other hand, the nuclear issue should be front and center on everybody?s mind. 
>>>  
>>> As for the rest, you make cogent points. But on the whole the statement is disappointing.   Meanwhile, more weaponry, troops are flooding into the region and sanctions applied so as to  weaken Russia, actions consistent with prior statements on various occasions that Russia (and China) are US  enemies.  
>>>  
>>> Very dangerous. 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Feb 28, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo__;!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR5eKNuD9g$>
>>>  
>>> CODEPINK Says Stop the War in Ukraine: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion
>>>  
>>> CODEPINK strongly condemns Russia?s invasion of Ukraine, where over 350,000 civilians have fled the country in fear of explosive weapons and missile attacks, while remaining residents from eastern to western Ukraine seek refuge in underground subways and bomb shelters. As an international peace organization, we call for an immediate ceasefire, negotiations without preconditions, withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine, an end to NATO expansion and a return to the negotiating table to address the security interests of all stakeholders. We stand in solidarity with the Ukrainian people under vicious attack and with the thousands of courageous Russian anti-war activists risking arrest and imprisonment to protest in the streets of Moscow and St. Petersburg. 
>>> 
>>> There is no military solution to the conflict over Ukraine, a country caught in the crossfire between the United States and Russia, the world?s two most heavily armed nuclear nations. While we denounce Putin?s reckless veiled threat to launch nuclear weapons against NATO countries, we also recognize the United States government is culpable in the proliferation and deployment of nuclear weapons, and must reverse course on its decision to pursue nuclear rearmament and instead advance verifiable agreements for global nuclear disarmament. 
>>> 
>>> In condemning Putin?s invasion of a sovereign country, the shelling of a Ukrainian hospital, the tanks closing in on Kyiv, we understand the U.S. has played a major role in exacerbating this conflict, facilitating a 2014 coup to overthrow the democratically elected leader of Ukraine and breaking promises not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, where offensive missiles in Romania and Poland could reach Russia in minutes.
>>> 
>>> Though some will argue NATO is a defensive alliance of 30 countries, we view NATO as a threat to world peace with its military encirclement of Russia and support for U.S. military aggression in Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya, where an estimated million died under a rain of bombs and millions more were displaced. NATO?s aggressive stance on China, another nuclear-armed nation, also threatens world peace and efforts to unite in the face of existential climate catastrophe. 
>>> 
>>> In advance of the NATO summit in June, CODEPINK calls for an international security agreement to protect the interests of all Europeans to remain free from war and occupation. Such an agreement should have been forged after the fall of the Soviet Union and dissolution of the Warsaw Pact; instead the U.S. and NATO sought further militarization in a continuance of the Cold War that spawned multiple hot wars, from Korea to Vietnam.
>>> 
>>> To prevent further fighting in Ukraine, to stop the loss of life, bloodshed and grave environmental degradation from the bombing of munitions plants, let us return to the 2015 Minsk II agreement that established a blueprint for peace and an end to the civil war rocking eastern Ukraine. Ukraine should be a neutral country; its incorporation into NATO should be off the table as a starting point for diplomacy.
>>> 
>>> During this perilous time, when further military escalation could trigger a Chernobyl radioactive meltdown or push us to the brink of nuclear annihilation, we urge President Biden and Congress to stop the flow of weapons to Ukraine, offer humanitarian assistance and safe refuge instead, renew lapsed arms control treaties (Anti-Ballistic Missile, Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces, Open Skies) the U.S. abandoned with Russia, and reject the imposition of massive sanctions that will harm the Russian people who, like us, want peace and security. 
>>> 
>>> Blanket sanctions on the entire Russian economy could spread economic and environmental hardship to Europe and potentially the global community with energy price hikes that may reduce energy consumption in the short term but prompt more oil drilling and lethal burning of fossil fuels in the long term.
>>> 
>>> In solidarity with anti-war protesters in Russia and across Europe, we call on the world?s peace-loving people, including conscripted front-line soldiers, to join us in a massive unified response to say: 
>>> 
>>> No to War in Ukraine; Yes to Negotiations and Peace.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> -- 
>>> This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace. 
>>>  
>>> Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
>>> --- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "WBW discussion" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com>.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/CAHKBExqpfrW7XDAsAqM0CWmUF0FR1Pz595NTDqGycZmhCv751w%40mail.gmail.com <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/CAHKBExqpfrW7XDAsAqM0CWmUF0FR1Pz595NTDqGycZmhCv751w*40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer__;JQ!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR4iX9Doxg$>.
>>>  
>>> -- 
>>> This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace. 
>>>  
>>> Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
>>> --- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "WBW discussion" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com>.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/9A0A1E79-B31C-40B0-9F5A-1AB41464EAF0%40gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/9A0A1E79-B31C-40B0-9F5A-1AB41464EAF0%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
>>>  
>> 
>> Begin forwarded message:
>> 
>> From: "Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>
>> Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion
>> Date: March 2, 2022 at 5:05:56 PM CST
>> To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>>
>> Cc: "Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>, "rowleyclan at earthlink.net <mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>" <rowleyclan at earthlink.net <mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>>, "<wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>" <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>
>> 
>> Naive, and worse, in that the statement overlooks(?) and ignores the reason for this crisis in the first place. The US-NATO-Ukraine refusal to consider what Putin/Russia was reasonably demanding for strategic stability, its security. You don?t ask why there was such denial. And now we have a state of turmoil looking, as was the initial intention, to demean and demonize Russia.  Who will profit for this?
>> 
>>> On Mar 2, 2022, at 11:54 AM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Just to be clear, CODEPINK's principal positions are: Russian troops out of Ukraine, Ceasefire now, Negotiations without preconditions,
>>> No NATO Expansion, Neutrality for Ukraine, No weapons to Ukraine, only humanitarian support; No blanket sanctions that will hurt
>>> the Russian people as opposed to the oligarchs.
>>> 
>>> I disagree with those who condemn peace groups for opposing the war in Ukraine, the full-scale Russian invasion and high-alert nuclear
>>> status. Putin's military aggression, not the peace movement's objection to war as a problem-solver, is what will empower NATO and the most
>>> warmongering elements of our government. One can be anti-imperialist without being pro-war.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 7:04 AM rowleyclan at earthlink.net <mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net> <rowleyclan at earthlink.net <mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>>> Exactly right, Morton! It's amazing how so much US-NATO imperialist history of illegal wars of aggression and inciting of violent regime changes in dozens of foreign countries (all to achieve their well-publicized goal since WWII of achieving unipolar, full spectrum dominance) is so quickly and fully erased in the minds of the various "peace" groups here, making their response to the situation in Ukraine so one-sided.  This morphing of liberal "peace" groups and lessening of internal resistance to US-NATO's bloody trajectory (since the costs of war upon Americans were made nearly invisible after Vietnam <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://consortiumnews.com/2018/02/04/recipe-concocted-for-perpetual-war-is-a-bitter-one/__;!!DZ3fjg!rqGCLR3hEZ8fxEXrec0z3FsREAPmaDf6bYSm2a5TPSU2awY4CY0yJ-zE7_xkvvxHhw$>) already became more obvious with Obama-Hillary's continuation of post 9-11 wars and bombing of Libya and Syria.   
>>> 
>>> But living in this imperial, exceptionalist and so effectively propagandized U.S.-NATO bubble makes it understandably difficult for most, even in the "peace movement" to remain fully empathetic with those foreigners experiencing the actual costs of war and objective/critical-thinking in their assessment of proportional blame for the current bloodshed.  Unfortunately we see most "peace" groups here quite seduced by Samantha Power type "humanitarian imperialism," subsequently engaging more to protest the "enemy" Russia than to protest their own government's greater responsibility.  Obviously it takes two to tango so it's true both sides bear some (although not equal) responsibility in launching this war.  But the task for Americans should be to protest our own government's actions instead of demonizing/protesting Russia and siding, even somewhat siding, with U.S.-NATO's actions and continued war propaganda.  
>>> 
>>>   So while it IS fine and good for the Russian people to protest their own government's actions (and same for Ukrainians to protest their own government), it should be the same for Americans and Europeans, to protest their own governments' involvement.  Americans who protest (the "enemy") Russia are just IMHO aiding and abetting U.S.-NATO's continued militarism and war plans, which almost always entail "leading from behind" by arming proxy forces, in this case using/exploiting poor Ukrainians.  
>>> 
>>> Coleen Rowley   
>>> 
>>>  
>>> "Power is always dangerous. Power attracts the worst and corrupts the best." --Edward Abbey
>>>  
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>
>>> Sent: Mar 1, 2022 11:20 PM
>>> To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>>
>>> Cc: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>, <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>> <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>
>>> Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion
>>> 
>>>  
>>> Marcy, 
>>>  I consider the current conflict as a continuation of US determination to remain a unipolar hegemon, and Russia (and China, Cuba, Venezuela,?) is one of the few powerful nations to oppose it.  Russia is therefore considered to be an enemy of the US, and thus all is acceptable to undermine it. A similar logic applies for China. NATO is an instrument of this US policy, and Ukraine is a useful agent to further US aims.
>>>  
>>> We all know that the US and NATO have violated international rules against aggressive wars multiple times,  aggressions against Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan, not to mention Yugoslavia, Syria and Palestine. Now that Russia has struck back, we have this chorus of condemnation.  
>>>  
>>> What is really at stake is whether the US can continue its imperial campaigns unhindered. Russia presents a major hindrance.
>>>  
>>> Yes, it is horrible that civilians are caught in the middle of this struggle, but the fundmental reasons for the struggle are geopolitical.  To have a stable world politically, the vital security  interests of both sides must be respected. This has not been done, despite claims that there always exist nonviolent and  just solutions. In some sense, as Putin has claimed,  the attack on Ukraine is defensive. He has come to understand  the US determination to subdue Russia, and he is trying to negate it,  to deal with it.  ?He" represents Russian interests. He may fail, but I sympathize with his quandary, just as I sympathize with those trapped in the middle of the conflict. Most people want peace, but not all, including the US administration and NATO which is delighted to have Ukrainians advance its ends. 
>>>  
>>>  I?m outraged by US policies.  The resistance by Russia to US/NATO depredations are mostly welcome, and I regret what many on the left are doing by their harsh condemnations of Russia. The ubiquity of these condemnations by peace groups serves to strengthen and mitigate the imperial acts of the US/NATO complex. This, despite supposedly balanced criticisms of US/NATO policies by some of these groups.
>>>  
>>> ?mkb
>>> 
>>> On Feb 28, 2022, at 7:30 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Morton, while there's no denying that NATO and the US have played a detrimental role in securing world peace & in encircling Russia and
>>> going back on promises, etc., the bottom line is none of that excuses the Russian invasion of Ukraine---war, as we say, is not the answer. As for
>>> the mention of Chernoybl, it must not be lost on any of us that there are 15 nuclear reactors in Ukraine, all of which pose a risk in normal times,
>>> let alone during a war when weapons, even if not intended, can hit a reactor to contaminate land and water. Putin's decision to issue veiled threats
>>> to launch nuclear weapons against NATO members and place his nuclear arsenal on high alert is way out of bounds and underscores the importance
>>> of nuclear abolition. Marcy
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 3:34 PM Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> What is wrong with this statement is that it strongly condemns Russia, but only criticizes US/NATO, and too late in the statement at that.  
>>>  
>>>  NATO/US/Ukraine refused to consider the so-called red lines that Russia warned should not be crossed. It disregards the Russian point of view. It does not consider what the US would do if analogous threats were evident at US borders.  Russia asserted in writing what it considered necessary conditions for its security, conditions ignored by NATO/US. Russia could back off no further. On a related issue Ukraine/US/NATO talked about the Minsk accords but in fact ignored those accords.   Negotiations went nowhere. 
>>>  
>>> So who is reponsible for what has now occurred? You have succumbed to a bandwagon of condemnation. 
>>>  
>>> Moreover, alarmist and ignorant comments about the Chernobyl reactor are ill considered; Russian forces have been very much aware that its safety should be ensured.  On the other hand, the nuclear issue should be front and center on everybody?s mind. 
>>>  
>>> As for the rest, you make cogent points. But on the whole the statement is disappointing.   Meanwhile, more weaponry, troops are flooding into the region and sanctions applied so as to  weaken Russia, actions consistent with prior statements on various occasions that Russia (and China) are US  enemies.  
>>>  
>>> Very dangerous. 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Feb 28, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo__;!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR5eKNuD9g$>
>>>  
>>> CODEPINK Says Stop the War in Ukraine: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion
>>>  
>>> CODEPINK strongly condemns Russia?s invasion of Ukraine, where over 350,000 civilians have fled the country in fear of explosive weapons and missile attacks, while remaining residents from eastern to western Ukraine seek refuge in underground subways and bomb shelters. As an international peace organization, we call for an immediate ceasefire, negotiations without preconditions, withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine, an end to NATO expansion and a return to the negotiating table to address the security interests of all stakeholders. We stand in solidarity with the Ukrainian people under vicious attack and with the thousands of courageous Russian anti-war activists risking arrest and imprisonment to protest in the streets of Moscow and St. Petersburg. 
>>> 
>>> There is no military solution to the conflict over Ukraine, a country caught in the crossfire between the United States and Russia, the world?s two most heavily armed nuclear nations. While we denounce Putin?s reckless veiled threat to launch nuclear weapons against NATO countries, we also recognize the United States government is culpable in the proliferation and deployment of nuclear weapons, and must reverse course on its decision to pursue nuclear rearmament and instead advance verifiable agreements for global nuclear disarmament. 
>>> 
>>> In condemning Putin?s invasion of a sovereign country, the shelling of a Ukrainian hospital, the tanks closing in on Kyiv, we understand the U.S. has played a major role in exacerbating this conflict, facilitating a 2014 coup to overthrow the democratically elected leader of Ukraine and breaking promises not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, where offensive missiles in Romania and Poland could reach Russia in minutes.
>>> 
>>> Though some will argue NATO is a defensive alliance of 30 countries, we view NATO as a threat to world peace with its military encirclement of Russia and support for U.S. military aggression in Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya, where an estimated million died under a rain of bombs and millions more were displaced. NATO?s aggressive stance on China, another nuclear-armed nation, also threatens world peace and efforts to unite in the face of existential climate catastrophe. 
>>> 
>>> In advance of the NATO summit in June, CODEPINK calls for an international security agreement to protect the interests of all Europeans to remain free from war and occupation. Such an agreement should have been forged after the fall of the Soviet Union and dissolution of the Warsaw Pact; instead the U.S. and NATO sought further militarization in a continuance of the Cold War that spawned multiple hot wars, from Korea to Vietnam.
>>> 
>>> To prevent further fighting in Ukraine, to stop the loss of life, bloodshed and grave environmental degradation from the bombing of munitions plants, let us return to the 2015 Minsk II agreement that established a blueprint for peace and an end to the civil war rocking eastern Ukraine. Ukraine should be a neutral country; its incorporation into NATO should be off the table as a starting point for diplomacy.
>>> 
>>> During this perilous time, when further military escalation could trigger a Chernobyl radioactive meltdown or push us to the brink of nuclear annihilation, we urge President Biden and Congress to stop the flow of weapons to Ukraine, offer humanitarian assistance and safe refuge instead, renew lapsed arms control treaties (Anti-Ballistic Missile, Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces, Open Skies) the U.S. abandoned with Russia, and reject the imposition of massive sanctions that will harm the Russian people who, like us, want peace and security. 
>>> 
>>> Blanket sanctions on the entire Russian economy could spread economic and environmental hardship to Europe and potentially the global community with energy price hikes that may reduce energy consumption in the short term but prompt more oil drilling and lethal burning of fossil fuels in the long term.
>>> 
>>> In solidarity with anti-war protesters in Russia and across Europe, we call on the world?s peace-loving people, including conscripted front-line soldiers, to join us in a massive unified response to say: 
>>> 
>>> No to War in Ukraine; Yes to Negotiations and Peace.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> -- 
>>> This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace. 
>>>  
>>> Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
>>> --- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "WBW discussion" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com>.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/CAHKBExqpfrW7XDAsAqM0CWmUF0FR1Pz595NTDqGycZmhCv751w%40mail.gmail.com <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/CAHKBExqpfrW7XDAsAqM0CWmUF0FR1Pz595NTDqGycZmhCv751w*40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer__;JQ!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR4iX9Doxg$>.
>>>  
>>> -- 
>>> This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace. 
>>>  
>>> Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
>>> --- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "WBW discussion" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com>.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/9A0A1E79-B31C-40B0-9F5A-1AB41464EAF0%40gmail.com <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/9A0A1E79-B31C-40B0-9F5A-1AB41464EAF0*40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer__;JQ!!DZ3fjg!rqGCLR3hEZ8fxEXrec0z3FsREAPmaDf6bYSm2a5TPSU2awY4CY0yJ-zE7_zs7YLIWg$>.
>>>  
>> 
> 

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From naiman.uiuc at gmail.com  Fri Mar  4 00:52:31 2022
From: naiman.uiuc at gmail.com (Robert Naiman)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 19:52:31 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] An exchange
In-Reply-To: <CH0PR19MB5314512981936BFAF7F64EA5A3049@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
References: <D41C5D44-96F8-4E09-8E0B-D2C5C0240A7C@illinois.edu>
 <CH0PR19MB5314512981936BFAF7F64EA5A3049@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CALMNhNSGnYoSZyfvQ=+_GmgJmEfs=Q_16AjctBh_awgxEt_Lqw@mail.gmail.com>

A good question for U.S. peace advocates to ask themselves right now is:

"Am I standing next to Putin's bombing of civilians in Ukraine right now?"

If you're standing next to Putin's bombing of civilians in Ukraine right
now, why call yourself a peace advocate?

Why not just call yourself a Putin advocate?

If the shoe fits, wear it.

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:08 AM karen aram via Peace-discuss <
peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

> Mort
>
> I couldn?t agree with you more. This has been my point, and you have said
> it so well. I?m pleased to see Colleen Rowley's statement supporting your
> views as well. It?s interesting  in that she a former CIA legal expert
> sounds very much like Noam Chomsky, on this very topic in warning what may
> come if the USG doesn?t stop expanding Nato.
>
> There are many of us taking this position, but unfortunately most people
> and some of the peace groups are focusing too much on simply ?anti-war,
> stop the fighting.? Which is not going to solve the problem, when focusing
> on other nations, governments than their own. It provides a veneer of that
> which is not a simple, "russia is bad," that the USG and our corporate
> owned media promotes.
>
> Thank you
>
>
> On Mar 2, 2022, at 10:50 PM, Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu>
> wrote:
>
> You might be interested. I thought I would wade into this blast at Russia
> by these peace groups. My initial remarks were to Marcy at CODEPINK, a
> group I?ve usually supported.
>
> Mort
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From: *"Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com>
> *Subject: **Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out,
> No NATO Expansion*
> *Date: *March 2, 2022 at 5:05:56 PM CST
> *To: *Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
> *Cc: *"Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com>, "rowleyclan at earthlink.net"
> <rowleyclan at earthlink.net>, "<wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>" <
> wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>
>
> Naive, and worse, in that the statement overlooks(?) and ignores the
> reason for this crisis in the first place. The US-NATO-Ukraine refusal to
> consider what Putin/Russia was reasonably demanding for strategic
> stability, its security. You don?t ask why there was such denial. And now
> we have a state of turmoil looking, as was the initial intention, to demean
> and demonize Russia.  Who will profit for this?
>
> On Mar 2, 2022, at 11:54 AM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Just to be clear, CODEPINK's principal positions are: Russian troops out
> of Ukraine, Ceasefire now, Negotiations without preconditions,
> No NATO Expansion, Neutrality for Ukraine, No weapons to Ukraine, only
> humanitarian support; No blanket sanctions that will hurt
> the Russian people as opposed to the oligarchs.
>
> I disagree with those who condemn peace groups for opposing the war in
> Ukraine, the full-scale Russian invasion and high-alert nuclear
> status. Putin's military aggression, not the peace movement's objection to
> war as a problem-solver, is what will empower NATO and the most
> warmongering elements of our government. One can be anti-imperialist
> without being pro-war.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 7:04 AM rowleyclan at earthlink.net <
> rowleyclan at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Exactly right, Morton! It's amazing how so much US-NATO imperialist
>> history of illegal wars of aggression and inciting of violent regime
>> changes in dozens of foreign countries (all to achieve their
>> well-publicized goal since WWII of achieving unipolar, full spectrum
>> dominance) is so quickly and fully erased in the minds of the various
>> "peace" groups here, making their response to the situation in Ukraine so
>> one-sided.  This morphing of liberal "peace" groups and lessening of
>> internal resistance to US-NATO's bloody trajectory (since the costs of
>> war upon Americans were made nearly invisible after Vietnam
>> <https://consortiumnews.com/2018/02/04/recipe-concocted-for-perpetual-war-is-a-bitter-one/>)
>> already became more obvious with Obama-Hillary's continuation of post 9-11
>> wars and bombing of Libya and Syria.
>>
>> But living in this imperial, exceptionalist and so effectively
>> propagandized U.S.-NATO bubble makes it understandably difficult for most,
>> even in the "peace movement" to remain fully empathetic with those
>> foreigners experiencing the actual costs of war and
>> objective/critical-thinking in their assessment of proportional blame for
>> the current bloodshed.  Unfortunately we see most "peace" groups here quite
>> seduced by Samantha Power type "humanitarian imperialism," subsequently
>> engaging more to protest the "enemy" Russia than to protest their own
>> government's greater responsibility.  Obviously it takes two to tango so
>> it's true both sides bear some (although not equal) responsibility in
>> launching this war.  But the task for Americans should be to protest our
>> own government's actions instead of demonizing/protesting Russia and
>> siding, even somewhat siding, with U.S.-NATO's actions and continued war
>> propaganda.
>>
>>   So while it IS fine and good for the Russian people to protest their
>> own government's actions (and same for Ukrainians to protest their own
>> government), it should be the same for Americans and Europeans, to protest
>> their own governments' involvement.  Americans who protest (the "enemy")
>> Russia are just IMHO aiding and abetting U.S.-NATO's continued militarism
>> and war plans, which almost always entail "leading from behind" by arming
>> proxy forces, in this case using/exploiting poor Ukrainians.
>>
>> Coleen Rowley
>>
>>
>> "Power is always dangerous. Power attracts the worst and corrupts the
>> best." --Edward Abbey
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Mar 1, 2022 11:20 PM
>> To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>> Cc: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com>, <
>> wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com> <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>
>> Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No
>> NATO Expansion
>>
>>
>> Marcy,
>>  I consider the current conflict as a continuation of US determination to
>> remain a unipolar hegemon, and Russia (and China, Cuba, Venezuela,?) is one
>> of the few powerful nations to oppose it.  Russia is therefore considered
>> to be an enemy of the US, and thus all is acceptable to undermine it. A
>> similar logic applies for China. NATO is an instrument of this US policy,
>> and Ukraine is a useful agent to further US aims.
>>
>> We all know that the US and NATO have violated international rules
>> against aggressive wars multiple times,  aggressions against Iraq, Libya,
>> and Afghanistan, not to mention Yugoslavia, Syria and Palestine. Now that
>> Russia has struck back, we have this chorus of condemnation.
>>
>> What is really at stake is whether the US can continue its imperial
>> campaigns unhindered. Russia presents a major hindrance.
>>
>> Yes, it is horrible that civilians are caught in the middle of this
>> struggle, but the fundmental reasons for the struggle are geopolitical.  To
>> have a stable world politically, the vital security  interests of both
>> sides must be respected. This has not been done, despite claims that there
>> always exist nonviolent and  just solutions. In some sense, as Putin has
>> claimed,  the attack on Ukraine is defensive. He has come to understand
>>  the US determination to subdue Russia, and he is trying to negate it,  to
>> deal with it.  ?He" represents Russian interests. He may fail, but I
>> sympathize with his quandary, just as I sympathize with those trapped in
>> the middle of the conflict. Most people want peace, but not all, including
>> the US administration and NATO which is delighted to have Ukrainians
>> advance its ends.
>>
>>  I?m outraged by US policies.  The resistance by Russia to US/NATO
>> depredations are mostly welcome, and I regret what many on the left are
>> doing by their harsh condemnations of Russia. The ubiquity of
>> these condemnations by peace groups serves to strengthen and mitigate the
>> imperial acts of the US/NATO complex. This, despite supposedly balanced
>> criticisms of US/NATO policies by some of these groups.
>>
>> ?mkb
>>
>> On Feb 28, 2022, at 7:30 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> Morton, while there's no denying that NATO and the US have played a
>> detrimental role in securing world peace & in encircling Russia and
>> going back on promises, etc., the bottom line is none of that excuses the
>> Russian invasion of Ukraine---war, as we say, is not the answer. As for
>> the mention of Chernoybl, it must not be lost on any of us that there are
>> 15 nuclear reactors in Ukraine, all of which pose a risk in normal times,
>> let alone during a war when weapons, even if not intended, can hit a
>> reactor to contaminate land and water. Putin's decision to issue veiled
>> threats
>> to launch nuclear weapons against NATO members and place his nuclear
>> arsenal on high alert is way out of bounds and underscores the importance
>> of nuclear abolition. Marcy
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 3:34 PM Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> What is wrong with this statement is that it strongly condemns Russia,
>>> but only criticizes US/NATO, and too late in the statement at that.
>>>
>>>  NATO/US/Ukraine refused to consider the so-called red lines that Russia
>>> warned should not be crossed. It disregards the Russian point of view. It
>>> does not consider what the US would do if analogous threats were evident at
>>> US borders.  Russia asserted in writing what it considered *necessary
>>> conditions* for its security, conditions ignored by NATO/US. Russia
>>> could back off no further. On a related issue Ukraine/US/NATO talked about
>>> the Minsk accords but in fact ignored those accords.   Negotiations
>>> went nowhere.
>>>
>>> So who is reponsible for what has now occurred? You have succumbed to a
>>> bandwagon of condemnation.
>>>
>>> Moreover, alarmist and ignorant comments about the Chernobyl reactor are
>>> ill considered; Russian forces have been very much aware that its safety
>>> should be ensured.  On the other hand, the nuclear issue should be front
>>> and center on everybody?s mind.
>>>
>>> As for the rest, you make cogent points. But on the whole the statement
>>> is disappointing.   Meanwhile, more weaponry, troops are flooding into the
>>> region and sanctions applied so as to  weaken Russia, actions consistent
>>> with prior statements on various occasions that Russia (and China) are US
>>>  enemies.
>>>
>>> Very dangerous.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 28, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo__;!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR5eKNuD9g$>
>>>
>>> CODEPINK Says Stop the War in Ukraine: Russian Troops Out, No NATO
>>> Expansion
>>>
>>>
>>> CODEPINK strongly condemns Russia?s invasion of Ukraine, where over
>>> 350,000 civilians have fled the country in fear of explosive weapons and
>>> missile attacks, while remaining residents from eastern to western Ukraine
>>> seek refuge in underground subways and bomb shelters. As an international
>>> peace organization, we call for an immediate ceasefire, negotiations
>>> without preconditions, withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine, an end to
>>> NATO expansion and a return to the negotiating table to address the
>>> security interests of all stakeholders. We stand in solidarity with the
>>> Ukrainian people under vicious attack and with the thousands of courageous
>>> Russian anti-war activists risking arrest and imprisonment to protest in
>>> the streets of Moscow and St. Petersburg.
>>>
>>> There is no military solution to the conflict over Ukraine, a country
>>> caught in the crossfire between the United States and Russia, the world?s
>>> two most heavily armed nuclear nations. While we denounce Putin?s
>>> reckless veiled threat to launch nuclear weapons against NATO countries, we
>>> also recognize the United States government is culpable in the
>>> proliferation and deployment of nuclear weapons, and must reverse course on
>>> its decision to pursue nuclear rearmament and instead advance verifiable
>>> agreements for global nuclear disarmament.
>>>
>>> In condemning Putin?s invasion of a sovereign country, the shelling of a
>>> Ukrainian hospital, the tanks closing in on Kyiv, we understand the U.S.
>>> has played a major role in exacerbating this conflict, facilitating a 2014
>>> coup to overthrow the democratically elected leader of Ukraine and breaking
>>> promises not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, where offensive missiles
>>> in Romania and Poland could reach Russia in minutes.
>>>
>>> Though some will argue NATO is a defensive alliance of 30 countries, we
>>> view NATO as a threat to world peace with its military encirclement of
>>> Russia and support for U.S. military aggression in Kosovo, Afghanistan,
>>> Iraq and Libya, where an estimated million died under a rain of bombs and
>>> millions more were displaced. NATO?s aggressive stance on China, another
>>> nuclear-armed nation, also threatens world peace and efforts to unite in
>>> the face of existential climate catastrophe.
>>>
>>> In advance of the NATO summit in June, CODEPINK calls for an
>>> international security agreement to protect the interests of all Europeans
>>> to remain free from war and occupation. Such an agreement should have been
>>> forged after the fall of the Soviet Union and dissolution of the Warsaw
>>> Pact; instead the U.S. and NATO sought further militarization in a
>>> continuance of the Cold War that spawned multiple hot wars, from Korea to
>>> Vietnam.
>>>
>>> To prevent further fighting in Ukraine, to stop the loss of life,
>>> bloodshed and grave environmental degradation from the bombing of munitions
>>> plants, let us return to the 2015 Minsk II agreement that established a
>>> blueprint for peace and an end to the civil war rocking eastern Ukraine.
>>> Ukraine should be a neutral country; its incorporation into NATO should be
>>> off the table as a starting point for diplomacy.
>>>
>>> During this perilous time, when further military escalation could
>>> trigger a Chernobyl radioactive meltdown or push us to the brink of nuclear
>>> annihilation, we urge President Biden and Congress to stop the flow of
>>> weapons to Ukraine, offer humanitarian assistance and safe refuge instead,
>>> renew lapsed arms control treaties (Anti-Ballistic Missile, Intermediate
>>> Range Nuclear Forces, Open Skies) the U.S. abandoned with Russia, and
>>> reject the imposition of massive sanctions that will harm the Russian
>>> people who, like us, want peace and security.
>>>
>>> Blanket sanctions on the entire Russian economy could spread economic
>>> and environmental hardship to Europe and potentially the global community
>>> with energy price hikes that may reduce energy consumption in the short
>>> term but prompt more oil drilling and lethal burning of fossil fuels in the
>>> long term.
>>>
>>> In solidarity with anti-war protesters in Russia and across Europe, we
>>> call on the world?s peace-loving people, including conscripted front-line
>>> soldiers, to join us in a massive unified response to say:
>>>
>>> No to War in Ukraine; Yes to Negotiations and Peace.
>>>
>>> --
>>> This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent
>>> movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace.
>>>
>>> Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not
>>> advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
>>> ---
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "WBW discussion" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/CAHKBExqpfrW7XDAsAqM0CWmUF0FR1Pz595NTDqGycZmhCv751w%40mail.gmail.com
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/CAHKBExqpfrW7XDAsAqM0CWmUF0FR1Pz595NTDqGycZmhCv751w*40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer__;JQ!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR4iX9Doxg$>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent
>> movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace.
>>
>> Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not
>> advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
>> ---
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "WBW discussion" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/9A0A1E79-B31C-40B0-9F5A-1AB41464EAF0%40gmail.com
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/9A0A1E79-B31C-40B0-9F5A-1AB41464EAF0%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From: *"Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com>
> *Subject: **Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out,
> No NATO Expansion*
> *Date: *March 2, 2022 at 5:05:56 PM CST
> *To: *Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
> *Cc: *"Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com>, "rowleyclan at earthlink.net"
> <rowleyclan at earthlink.net>, "<wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>" <
> wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>
>
> Naive, and worse, in that the statement overlooks(?) and ignores the
> reason for this crisis in the first place. The US-NATO-Ukraine refusal to
> consider what Putin/Russia was reasonably demanding for strategic
> stability, its security. You don?t ask why there was such denial. And now
> we have a state of turmoil looking, as was the initial intention, to demean
> and demonize Russia.  Who will profit for this?
>
> On Mar 2, 2022, at 11:54 AM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Just to be clear, CODEPINK's principal positions are: Russian troops out
> of Ukraine, Ceasefire now, Negotiations without preconditions,
> No NATO Expansion, Neutrality for Ukraine, No weapons to Ukraine, only
> humanitarian support; No blanket sanctions that will hurt
> the Russian people as opposed to the oligarchs.
>
> I disagree with those who condemn peace groups for opposing the war in
> Ukraine, the full-scale Russian invasion and high-alert nuclear
> status. Putin's military aggression, not the peace movement's objection to
> war as a problem-solver, is what will empower NATO and the most
> warmongering elements of our government. One can be anti-imperialist
> without being pro-war.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 7:04 AM rowleyclan at earthlink.net <
> rowleyclan at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Exactly right, Morton! It's amazing how so much US-NATO imperialist
>> history of illegal wars of aggression and inciting of violent regime
>> changes in dozens of foreign countries (all to achieve their
>> well-publicized goal since WWII of achieving unipolar, full spectrum
>> dominance) is so quickly and fully erased in the minds of the various
>> "peace" groups here, making their response to the situation in Ukraine so
>> one-sided.  This morphing of liberal "peace" groups and lessening of
>> internal resistance to US-NATO's bloody trajectory (since the costs of
>> war upon Americans were made nearly invisible after Vietnam
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://consortiumnews.com/2018/02/04/recipe-concocted-for-perpetual-war-is-a-bitter-one/__;!!DZ3fjg!rqGCLR3hEZ8fxEXrec0z3FsREAPmaDf6bYSm2a5TPSU2awY4CY0yJ-zE7_xkvvxHhw$>)
>> already became more obvious with Obama-Hillary's continuation of post 9-11
>> wars and bombing of Libya and Syria.
>>
>> But living in this imperial, exceptionalist and so effectively
>> propagandized U.S.-NATO bubble makes it understandably difficult for most,
>> even in the "peace movement" to remain fully empathetic with those
>> foreigners experiencing the actual costs of war and
>> objective/critical-thinking in their assessment of proportional blame for
>> the current bloodshed.  Unfortunately we see most "peace" groups here quite
>> seduced by Samantha Power type "humanitarian imperialism," subsequently
>> engaging more to protest the "enemy" Russia than to protest their own
>> government's greater responsibility.  Obviously it takes two to tango so
>> it's true both sides bear some (although not equal) responsibility in
>> launching this war.  But the task for Americans should be to protest our
>> own government's actions instead of demonizing/protesting Russia and
>> siding, even somewhat siding, with U.S.-NATO's actions and continued war
>> propaganda.
>>
>>   So while it IS fine and good for the Russian people to protest their
>> own government's actions (and same for Ukrainians to protest their own
>> government), it should be the same for Americans and Europeans, to protest
>> their own governments' involvement.  Americans who protest (the "enemy")
>> Russia are just IMHO aiding and abetting U.S.-NATO's continued militarism
>> and war plans, which almost always entail "leading from behind" by arming
>> proxy forces, in this case using/exploiting poor Ukrainians.
>>
>> Coleen Rowley
>>
>>
>> "Power is always dangerous. Power attracts the worst and corrupts the
>> best." --Edward Abbey
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Mar 1, 2022 11:20 PM
>> To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>> Cc: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com>, <
>> wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com> <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>
>> Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No
>> NATO Expansion
>>
>>
>> Marcy,
>>  I consider the current conflict as a continuation of US determination to
>> remain a unipolar hegemon, and Russia (and China, Cuba, Venezuela,?) is one
>> of the few powerful nations to oppose it.  Russia is therefore considered
>> to be an enemy of the US, and thus all is acceptable to undermine it. A
>> similar logic applies for China. NATO is an instrument of this US policy,
>> and Ukraine is a useful agent to further US aims.
>>
>> We all know that the US and NATO have violated international rules
>> against aggressive wars multiple times,  aggressions against Iraq, Libya,
>> and Afghanistan, not to mention Yugoslavia, Syria and Palestine. Now that
>> Russia has struck back, we have this chorus of condemnation.
>>
>> What is really at stake is whether the US can continue its imperial
>> campaigns unhindered. Russia presents a major hindrance.
>>
>> Yes, it is horrible that civilians are caught in the middle of this
>> struggle, but the fundmental reasons for the struggle are geopolitical.  To
>> have a stable world politically, the vital security  interests of both
>> sides must be respected. This has not been done, despite claims that there
>> always exist nonviolent and  just solutions. In some sense, as Putin has
>> claimed,  the attack on Ukraine is defensive. He has come to understand
>>  the US determination to subdue Russia, and he is trying to negate it,  to
>> deal with it.  ?He" represents Russian interests. He may fail, but I
>> sympathize with his quandary, just as I sympathize with those trapped in
>> the middle of the conflict. Most people want peace, but not all, including
>> the US administration and NATO which is delighted to have Ukrainians
>> advance its ends.
>>
>>  I?m outraged by US policies.  The resistance by Russia to US/NATO
>> depredations are mostly welcome, and I regret what many on the left are
>> doing by their harsh condemnations of Russia. The ubiquity of
>> these condemnations by peace groups serves to strengthen and mitigate the
>> imperial acts of the US/NATO complex. This, despite supposedly balanced
>> criticisms of US/NATO policies by some of these groups.
>>
>> ?mkb
>>
>> On Feb 28, 2022, at 7:30 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> Morton, while there's no denying that NATO and the US have played a
>> detrimental role in securing world peace & in encircling Russia and
>> going back on promises, etc., the bottom line is none of that excuses the
>> Russian invasion of Ukraine---war, as we say, is not the answer. As for
>> the mention of Chernoybl, it must not be lost on any of us that there are
>> 15 nuclear reactors in Ukraine, all of which pose a risk in normal times,
>> let alone during a war when weapons, even if not intended, can hit a
>> reactor to contaminate land and water. Putin's decision to issue veiled
>> threats
>> to launch nuclear weapons against NATO members and place his nuclear
>> arsenal on high alert is way out of bounds and underscores the importance
>> of nuclear abolition. Marcy
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 3:34 PM Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> What is wrong with this statement is that it strongly condemns Russia,
>>> but only criticizes US/NATO, and too late in the statement at that.
>>>
>>>  NATO/US/Ukraine refused to consider the so-called red lines that Russia
>>> warned should not be crossed. It disregards the Russian point of view. It
>>> does not consider what the US would do if analogous threats were evident at
>>> US borders.  Russia asserted in writing what it considered *necessary
>>> conditions* for its security, conditions ignored by NATO/US. Russia
>>> could back off no further. On a related issue Ukraine/US/NATO talked about
>>> the Minsk accords but in fact ignored those accords.   Negotiations
>>> went nowhere.
>>>
>>> So who is reponsible for what has now occurred? You have succumbed to a
>>> bandwagon of condemnation.
>>>
>>> Moreover, alarmist and ignorant comments about the Chernobyl reactor are
>>> ill considered; Russian forces have been very much aware that its safety
>>> should be ensured.  On the other hand, the nuclear issue should be front
>>> and center on everybody?s mind.
>>>
>>> As for the rest, you make cogent points. But on the whole the statement
>>> is disappointing.   Meanwhile, more weaponry, troops are flooding into the
>>> region and sanctions applied so as to  weaken Russia, actions consistent
>>> with prior statements on various occasions that Russia (and China) are US
>>>  enemies.
>>>
>>> Very dangerous.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 28, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo__;!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR5eKNuD9g$>
>>>
>>> CODEPINK Says Stop the War in Ukraine: Russian Troops Out, No NATO
>>> Expansion
>>>
>>>
>>> CODEPINK strongly condemns Russia?s invasion of Ukraine, where over
>>> 350,000 civilians have fled the country in fear of explosive weapons and
>>> missile attacks, while remaining residents from eastern to western Ukraine
>>> seek refuge in underground subways and bomb shelters. As an international
>>> peace organization, we call for an immediate ceasefire, negotiations
>>> without preconditions, withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine, an end to
>>> NATO expansion and a return to the negotiating table to address the
>>> security interests of all stakeholders. We stand in solidarity with the
>>> Ukrainian people under vicious attack and with the thousands of courageous
>>> Russian anti-war activists risking arrest and imprisonment to protest in
>>> the streets of Moscow and St. Petersburg.
>>>
>>> There is no military solution to the conflict over Ukraine, a country
>>> caught in the crossfire between the United States and Russia, the world?s
>>> two most heavily armed nuclear nations. While we denounce Putin?s
>>> reckless veiled threat to launch nuclear weapons against NATO countries, we
>>> also recognize the United States government is culpable in the
>>> proliferation and deployment of nuclear weapons, and must reverse course on
>>> its decision to pursue nuclear rearmament and instead advance verifiable
>>> agreements for global nuclear disarmament.
>>>
>>> In condemning Putin?s invasion of a sovereign country, the shelling of a
>>> Ukrainian hospital, the tanks closing in on Kyiv, we understand the U.S.
>>> has played a major role in exacerbating this conflict, facilitating a 2014
>>> coup to overthrow the democratically elected leader of Ukraine and breaking
>>> promises not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, where offensive missiles
>>> in Romania and Poland could reach Russia in minutes.
>>>
>>> Though some will argue NATO is a defensive alliance of 30 countries, we
>>> view NATO as a threat to world peace with its military encirclement of
>>> Russia and support for U.S. military aggression in Kosovo, Afghanistan,
>>> Iraq and Libya, where an estimated million died under a rain of bombs and
>>> millions more were displaced. NATO?s aggressive stance on China, another
>>> nuclear-armed nation, also threatens world peace and efforts to unite in
>>> the face of existential climate catastrophe.
>>>
>>> In advance of the NATO summit in June, CODEPINK calls for an
>>> international security agreement to protect the interests of all Europeans
>>> to remain free from war and occupation. Such an agreement should have been
>>> forged after the fall of the Soviet Union and dissolution of the Warsaw
>>> Pact; instead the U.S. and NATO sought further militarization in a
>>> continuance of the Cold War that spawned multiple hot wars, from Korea to
>>> Vietnam.
>>>
>>> To prevent further fighting in Ukraine, to stop the loss of life,
>>> bloodshed and grave environmental degradation from the bombing of munitions
>>> plants, let us return to the 2015 Minsk II agreement that established a
>>> blueprint for peace and an end to the civil war rocking eastern Ukraine.
>>> Ukraine should be a neutral country; its incorporation into NATO should be
>>> off the table as a starting point for diplomacy.
>>>
>>> During this perilous time, when further military escalation could
>>> trigger a Chernobyl radioactive meltdown or push us to the brink of nuclear
>>> annihilation, we urge President Biden and Congress to stop the flow of
>>> weapons to Ukraine, offer humanitarian assistance and safe refuge instead,
>>> renew lapsed arms control treaties (Anti-Ballistic Missile, Intermediate
>>> Range Nuclear Forces, Open Skies) the U.S. abandoned with Russia, and
>>> reject the imposition of massive sanctions that will harm the Russian
>>> people who, like us, want peace and security.
>>>
>>> Blanket sanctions on the entire Russian economy could spread economic
>>> and environmental hardship to Europe and potentially the global community
>>> with energy price hikes that may reduce energy consumption in the short
>>> term but prompt more oil drilling and lethal burning of fossil fuels in the
>>> long term.
>>>
>>> In solidarity with anti-war protesters in Russia and across Europe, we
>>> call on the world?s peace-loving people, including conscripted front-line
>>> soldiers, to join us in a massive unified response to say:
>>>
>>> No to War in Ukraine; Yes to Negotiations and Peace.
>>>
>>> --
>>> This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent
>>> movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace.
>>>
>>> Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not
>>> advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
>>> ---
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "WBW discussion" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/CAHKBExqpfrW7XDAsAqM0CWmUF0FR1Pz595NTDqGycZmhCv751w%40mail.gmail.com
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/CAHKBExqpfrW7XDAsAqM0CWmUF0FR1Pz595NTDqGycZmhCv751w*40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer__;JQ!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR4iX9Doxg$>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent
>> movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace.
>>
>> Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not
>> advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
>> ---
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "WBW discussion" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/9A0A1E79-B31C-40B0-9F5A-1AB41464EAF0%40gmail.com
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/9A0A1E79-B31C-40B0-9F5A-1AB41464EAF0*40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer__;JQ!!DZ3fjg!rqGCLR3hEZ8fxEXrec0z3FsREAPmaDf6bYSm2a5TPSU2awY4CY0yJ-zE7_zs7YLIWg$>
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  4 02:35:47 2022
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (karen aram)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 20:35:47 -0600
Subject: [Peace-discuss] An exchange
In-Reply-To: <CALMNhNSGnYoSZyfvQ=+_GmgJmEfs=Q_16AjctBh_awgxEt_Lqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D41C5D44-96F8-4E09-8E0B-D2C5C0240A7C@illinois.edu>
 <CH0PR19MB5314512981936BFAF7F64EA5A3049@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CALMNhNSGnYoSZyfvQ=+_GmgJmEfs=Q_16AjctBh_awgxEt_Lqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CH0PR19MB53140094DCF019C1B743E5CAA3059@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>

Mort, sadly we?ve drawn out the wrath of Bob Naiman who now labels us "Putin advocates."

What?s interesting is this is the same form of vilification anti-war activists received during the Vietnam war. We were "anti-American for criticizing our government.? We were told to get a haircut and/or a job.

I?ve heard the anti-war activists of the ANSWER coalition were treated in the same manner, spit on, degraded for their "anti-Americanism," during the start of the Iraq war. 

Jews protesting the treatment of Palestinians by Israel, were and are still labeled self hating Jews, if they're Jewish they can?t be vilified as anti-semitic, so self hating Jew is the usual slur. According to Noam Chomsky this slur against those questioning, goes back a very long way.

Those opposing the US covert military interventions bombing and killing in Syria are referred to as ?Assadists." for supporting the Assad government.?

Those opposing the US bombing and destruction of Yemen, by our proxy?s no problem, because it?s the Saudi?s doing the dirty work, never mind they couldn?t do it without US weapons, training and logistics. So, it?s okay to keep up the concern for peace for Yemen, by contacting our Democrat Representatives to stop it. Given it?s been seven years now with no stopping and a lot of starvation, I would think a different tactic might be in order. But never mind, it should all be over soon, with the nation if not totally destroyed, in complete chaos, devastation and death. We can all cry for Yemen then.

So now, those of us calling attention over the past few months, weeks or eight years since 2014, to the US provocations of Russia, because they fear nuclear war with Nato encroaching closer to their borders every day, we?re referred to as "Putin advocates.?

It?s unfortunate no one was paying attention to us, and now we have war, many are crying and urging we pray for the Ukrainian people. As anti-war activists I think we know, if we know our history, prayer hasn?t been very successful at saving people, lest we forget we have the Holocaust to remind us. 

What?s most interesting is in the past it was right wingers doing the name calling as they are the loyal patriots supporting, "my country right or wrong, blame the other guy." Now it?s the so-called liberal left. 


> On Mar 3, 2022, at 6:52 PM, Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> A good question for U.S. peace advocates to ask themselves right now is: 
> 
> "Am I standing next to Putin's bombing of civilians in Ukraine right now?" 
> 
> If you're standing next to Putin's bombing of civilians in Ukraine right now, why call yourself a peace advocate? 
> 
> Why not just call yourself a Putin advocate? 
> 
> If the shoe fits, wear it. 
> 
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:08 AM karen aram via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
> Mort
> 
> I couldn?t agree with you more. This has been my point, and you have said it so well. I?m pleased to see Colleen Rowley's statement supporting your views as well. It?s interesting  in that she a former CIA legal expert sounds very much like Noam Chomsky, on this very topic in warning what may come if the USG doesn?t stop expanding Nato. 
> 
> There are many of us taking this position, but unfortunately most people and some of the peace groups are focusing too much on simply ?anti-war, stop the fighting.? Which is not going to solve the problem, when focusing on other nations, governments than their own. It provides a veneer of that which is not a simple, "russia is bad," that the USG and our corporate owned media promotes. 
> 
> Thank you
> 
> 
>> On Mar 2, 2022, at 10:50 PM, Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu <mailto:brussel at illinois.edu>> wrote:
>> 
>> You might be interested. I thought I would wade into this blast at Russia by these peace groups. My initial remarks were to Marcy at CODEPINK, a group I?ve usually supported.
>> 
>> Mort
>> 
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>> 
>>> From: "Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>
>>> Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion
>>> Date: March 2, 2022 at 5:05:56 PM CST
>>> To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>>
>>> Cc: "Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>, "rowleyclan at earthlink.net <mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>" <rowleyclan at earthlink.net <mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>>, "<wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>" <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>
>>> 
>>> Naive, and worse, in that the statement overlooks(?) and ignores the reason for this crisis in the first place. The US-NATO-Ukraine refusal to consider what Putin/Russia was reasonably demanding for strategic stability, its security. You don?t ask why there was such denial. And now we have a state of turmoil looking, as was the initial intention, to demean and demonize Russia.  Who will profit for this?
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 2, 2022, at 11:54 AM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Just to be clear, CODEPINK's principal positions are: Russian troops out of Ukraine, Ceasefire now, Negotiations without preconditions,
>>>> No NATO Expansion, Neutrality for Ukraine, No weapons to Ukraine, only humanitarian support; No blanket sanctions that will hurt
>>>> the Russian people as opposed to the oligarchs.
>>>> 
>>>> I disagree with those who condemn peace groups for opposing the war in Ukraine, the full-scale Russian invasion and high-alert nuclear
>>>> status. Putin's military aggression, not the peace movement's objection to war as a problem-solver, is what will empower NATO and the most
>>>> warmongering elements of our government. One can be anti-imperialist without being pro-war.
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 7:04 AM rowleyclan at earthlink.net <mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net> <rowleyclan at earthlink.net <mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>>>> Exactly right, Morton! It's amazing how so much US-NATO imperialist history of illegal wars of aggression and inciting of violent regime changes in dozens of foreign countries (all to achieve their well-publicized goal since WWII of achieving unipolar, full spectrum dominance) is so quickly and fully erased in the minds of the various "peace" groups here, making their response to the situation in Ukraine so one-sided.  This morphing of liberal "peace" groups and lessening of internal resistance to US-NATO's bloody trajectory (since the costs of war upon Americans were made nearly invisible after Vietnam <https://consortiumnews.com/2018/02/04/recipe-concocted-for-perpetual-war-is-a-bitter-one/>) already became more obvious with Obama-Hillary's continuation of post 9-11 wars and bombing of Libya and Syria.   
>>>> 
>>>> But living in this imperial, exceptionalist and so effectively propagandized U.S.-NATO bubble makes it understandably difficult for most, even in the "peace movement" to remain fully empathetic with those foreigners experiencing the actual costs of war and objective/critical-thinking in their assessment of proportional blame for the current bloodshed.  Unfortunately we see most "peace" groups here quite seduced by Samantha Power type "humanitarian imperialism," subsequently engaging more to protest the "enemy" Russia than to protest their own government's greater responsibility.  Obviously it takes two to tango so it's true both sides bear some (although not equal) responsibility in launching this war.  But the task for Americans should be to protest our own government's actions instead of demonizing/protesting Russia and siding, even somewhat siding, with U.S.-NATO's actions and continued war propaganda.  
>>>> 
>>>>   So while it IS fine and good for the Russian people to protest their own government's actions (and same for Ukrainians to protest their own government), it should be the same for Americans and Europeans, to protest their own governments' involvement.  Americans who protest (the "enemy") Russia are just IMHO aiding and abetting U.S.-NATO's continued militarism and war plans, which almost always entail "leading from behind" by arming proxy forces, in this case using/exploiting poor Ukrainians.  
>>>> 
>>>> Coleen Rowley   
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> "Power is always dangerous. Power attracts the worst and corrupts the best." --Edward Abbey
>>>>  
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>
>>>> Sent: Mar 1, 2022 11:20 PM
>>>> To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>>
>>>> Cc: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>, <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>> <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> Marcy, 
>>>>  I consider the current conflict as a continuation of US determination to remain a unipolar hegemon, and Russia (and China, Cuba, Venezuela,?) is one of the few powerful nations to oppose it.  Russia is therefore considered to be an enemy of the US, and thus all is acceptable to undermine it. A similar logic applies for China. NATO is an instrument of this US policy, and Ukraine is a useful agent to further US aims.
>>>>  
>>>> We all know that the US and NATO have violated international rules against aggressive wars multiple times,  aggressions against Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan, not to mention Yugoslavia, Syria and Palestine. Now that Russia has struck back, we have this chorus of condemnation.  
>>>>  
>>>> What is really at stake is whether the US can continue its imperial campaigns unhindered. Russia presents a major hindrance.
>>>>  
>>>> Yes, it is horrible that civilians are caught in the middle of this struggle, but the fundmental reasons for the struggle are geopolitical.  To have a stable world politically, the vital security  interests of both sides must be respected. This has not been done, despite claims that there always exist nonviolent and  just solutions. In some sense, as Putin has claimed,  the attack on Ukraine is defensive. He has come to understand  the US determination to subdue Russia, and he is trying to negate it,  to deal with it.  ?He" represents Russian interests. He may fail, but I sympathize with his quandary, just as I sympathize with those trapped in the middle of the conflict. Most people want peace, but not all, including the US administration and NATO which is delighted to have Ukrainians advance its ends. 
>>>>  
>>>>  I?m outraged by US policies.  The resistance by Russia to US/NATO depredations are mostly welcome, and I regret what many on the left are doing by their harsh condemnations of Russia. The ubiquity of these condemnations by peace groups serves to strengthen and mitigate the imperial acts of the US/NATO complex. This, despite supposedly balanced criticisms of US/NATO policies by some of these groups.
>>>>  
>>>> ?mkb
>>>> 
>>>> On Feb 28, 2022, at 7:30 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> Morton, while there's no denying that NATO and the US have played a detrimental role in securing world peace & in encircling Russia and
>>>> going back on promises, etc., the bottom line is none of that excuses the Russian invasion of Ukraine---war, as we say, is not the answer. As for
>>>> the mention of Chernoybl, it must not be lost on any of us that there are 15 nuclear reactors in Ukraine, all of which pose a risk in normal times,
>>>> let alone during a war when weapons, even if not intended, can hit a reactor to contaminate land and water. Putin's decision to issue veiled threats
>>>> to launch nuclear weapons against NATO members and place his nuclear arsenal on high alert is way out of bounds and underscores the importance
>>>> of nuclear abolition. Marcy
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 3:34 PM Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> What is wrong with this statement is that it strongly condemns Russia, but only criticizes US/NATO, and too late in the statement at that.  
>>>>  
>>>>  NATO/US/Ukraine refused to consider the so-called red lines that Russia warned should not be crossed. It disregards the Russian point of view. It does not consider what the US would do if analogous threats were evident at US borders.  Russia asserted in writing what it considered necessary conditions for its security, conditions ignored by NATO/US. Russia could back off no further. On a related issue Ukraine/US/NATO talked about the Minsk accords but in fact ignored those accords.   Negotiations went nowhere. 
>>>>  
>>>> So who is reponsible for what has now occurred? You have succumbed to a bandwagon of condemnation. 
>>>>  
>>>> Moreover, alarmist and ignorant comments about the Chernobyl reactor are ill considered; Russian forces have been very much aware that its safety should be ensured.  On the other hand, the nuclear issue should be front and center on everybody?s mind. 
>>>>  
>>>> As for the rest, you make cogent points. But on the whole the statement is disappointing.   Meanwhile, more weaponry, troops are flooding into the region and sanctions applied so as to  weaken Russia, actions consistent with prior statements on various occasions that Russia (and China) are US  enemies.  
>>>>  
>>>> Very dangerous. 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Feb 28, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo__;!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR5eKNuD9g$>
>>>>  
>>>> CODEPINK Says Stop the War in Ukraine: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion
>>>>  
>>>> CODEPINK strongly condemns Russia?s invasion of Ukraine, where over 350,000 civilians have fled the country in fear of explosive weapons and missile attacks, while remaining residents from eastern to western Ukraine seek refuge in underground subways and bomb shelters. As an international peace organization, we call for an immediate ceasefire, negotiations without preconditions, withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine, an end to NATO expansion and a return to the negotiating table to address the security interests of all stakeholders. We stand in solidarity with the Ukrainian people under vicious attack and with the thousands of courageous Russian anti-war activists risking arrest and imprisonment to protest in the streets of Moscow and St. Petersburg. 
>>>> 
>>>> There is no military solution to the conflict over Ukraine, a country caught in the crossfire between the United States and Russia, the world?s two most heavily armed nuclear nations. While we denounce Putin?s reckless veiled threat to launch nuclear weapons against NATO countries, we also recognize the United States government is culpable in the proliferation and deployment of nuclear weapons, and must reverse course on its decision to pursue nuclear rearmament and instead advance verifiable agreements for global nuclear disarmament. 
>>>> 
>>>> In condemning Putin?s invasion of a sovereign country, the shelling of a Ukrainian hospital, the tanks closing in on Kyiv, we understand the U.S. has played a major role in exacerbating this conflict, facilitating a 2014 coup to overthrow the democratically elected leader of Ukraine and breaking promises not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, where offensive missiles in Romania and Poland could reach Russia in minutes.
>>>> 
>>>> Though some will argue NATO is a defensive alliance of 30 countries, we view NATO as a threat to world peace with its military encirclement of Russia and support for U.S. military aggression in Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya, where an estimated million died under a rain of bombs and millions more were displaced. NATO?s aggressive stance on China, another nuclear-armed nation, also threatens world peace and efforts to unite in the face of existential climate catastrophe. 
>>>> 
>>>> In advance of the NATO summit in June, CODEPINK calls for an international security agreement to protect the interests of all Europeans to remain free from war and occupation. Such an agreement should have been forged after the fall of the Soviet Union and dissolution of the Warsaw Pact; instead the U.S. and NATO sought further militarization in a continuance of the Cold War that spawned multiple hot wars, from Korea to Vietnam.
>>>> 
>>>> To prevent further fighting in Ukraine, to stop the loss of life, bloodshed and grave environmental degradation from the bombing of munitions plants, let us return to the 2015 Minsk II agreement that established a blueprint for peace and an end to the civil war rocking eastern Ukraine. Ukraine should be a neutral country; its incorporation into NATO should be off the table as a starting point for diplomacy.
>>>> 
>>>> During this perilous time, when further military escalation could trigger a Chernobyl radioactive meltdown or push us to the brink of nuclear annihilation, we urge President Biden and Congress to stop the flow of weapons to Ukraine, offer humanitarian assistance and safe refuge instead, renew lapsed arms control treaties (Anti-Ballistic Missile, Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces, Open Skies) the U.S. abandoned with Russia, and reject the imposition of massive sanctions that will harm the Russian people who, like us, want peace and security. 
>>>> 
>>>> Blanket sanctions on the entire Russian economy could spread economic and environmental hardship to Europe and potentially the global community with energy price hikes that may reduce energy consumption in the short term but prompt more oil drilling and lethal burning of fossil fuels in the long term.
>>>> 
>>>> In solidarity with anti-war protesters in Russia and across Europe, we call on the world?s peace-loving people, including conscripted front-line soldiers, to join us in a massive unified response to say: 
>>>> 
>>>> No to War in Ukraine; Yes to Negotiations and Peace.
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> -- 
>>>> This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace. 
>>>>  
>>>> Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
>>>> --- 
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "WBW discussion" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com>.
>>>> To view this discussion on the web visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/CAHKBExqpfrW7XDAsAqM0CWmUF0FR1Pz595NTDqGycZmhCv751w%40mail.gmail.com <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/CAHKBExqpfrW7XDAsAqM0CWmUF0FR1Pz595NTDqGycZmhCv751w*40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer__;JQ!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR4iX9Doxg$>.
>>>>  
>>>> -- 
>>>> This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace. 
>>>>  
>>>> Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
>>>> --- 
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "WBW discussion" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com>.
>>>> To view this discussion on the web visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/9A0A1E79-B31C-40B0-9F5A-1AB41464EAF0%40gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/9A0A1E79-B31C-40B0-9F5A-1AB41464EAF0%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
>>>>  
>>> 
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>> 
>>> From: "Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>
>>> Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion
>>> Date: March 2, 2022 at 5:05:56 PM CST
>>> To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>>
>>> Cc: "Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>, "rowleyclan at earthlink.net <mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>" <rowleyclan at earthlink.net <mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>>, "<wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>" <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>
>>> 
>>> Naive, and worse, in that the statement overlooks(?) and ignores the reason for this crisis in the first place. The US-NATO-Ukraine refusal to consider what Putin/Russia was reasonably demanding for strategic stability, its security. You don?t ask why there was such denial. And now we have a state of turmoil looking, as was the initial intention, to demean and demonize Russia.  Who will profit for this?
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 2, 2022, at 11:54 AM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Just to be clear, CODEPINK's principal positions are: Russian troops out of Ukraine, Ceasefire now, Negotiations without preconditions,
>>>> No NATO Expansion, Neutrality for Ukraine, No weapons to Ukraine, only humanitarian support; No blanket sanctions that will hurt
>>>> the Russian people as opposed to the oligarchs.
>>>> 
>>>> I disagree with those who condemn peace groups for opposing the war in Ukraine, the full-scale Russian invasion and high-alert nuclear
>>>> status. Putin's military aggression, not the peace movement's objection to war as a problem-solver, is what will empower NATO and the most
>>>> warmongering elements of our government. One can be anti-imperialist without being pro-war.
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 7:04 AM rowleyclan at earthlink.net <mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net> <rowleyclan at earthlink.net <mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>>>> Exactly right, Morton! It's amazing how so much US-NATO imperialist history of illegal wars of aggression and inciting of violent regime changes in dozens of foreign countries (all to achieve their well-publicized goal since WWII of achieving unipolar, full spectrum dominance) is so quickly and fully erased in the minds of the various "peace" groups here, making their response to the situation in Ukraine so one-sided.  This morphing of liberal "peace" groups and lessening of internal resistance to US-NATO's bloody trajectory (since the costs of war upon Americans were made nearly invisible after Vietnam <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://consortiumnews.com/2018/02/04/recipe-concocted-for-perpetual-war-is-a-bitter-one/__;!!DZ3fjg!rqGCLR3hEZ8fxEXrec0z3FsREAPmaDf6bYSm2a5TPSU2awY4CY0yJ-zE7_xkvvxHhw$>) already became more obvious with Obama-Hillary's continuation of post 9-11 wars and bombing of Libya and Syria.   
>>>> 
>>>> But living in this imperial, exceptionalist and so effectively propagandized U.S.-NATO bubble makes it understandably difficult for most, even in the "peace movement" to remain fully empathetic with those foreigners experiencing the actual costs of war and objective/critical-thinking in their assessment of proportional blame for the current bloodshed.  Unfortunately we see most "peace" groups here quite seduced by Samantha Power type "humanitarian imperialism," subsequently engaging more to protest the "enemy" Russia than to protest their own government's greater responsibility.  Obviously it takes two to tango so it's true both sides bear some (although not equal) responsibility in launching this war.  But the task for Americans should be to protest our own government's actions instead of demonizing/protesting Russia and siding, even somewhat siding, with U.S.-NATO's actions and continued war propaganda.  
>>>> 
>>>>   So while it IS fine and good for the Russian people to protest their own government's actions (and same for Ukrainians to protest their own government), it should be the same for Americans and Europeans, to protest their own governments' involvement.  Americans who protest (the "enemy") Russia are just IMHO aiding and abetting U.S.-NATO's continued militarism and war plans, which almost always entail "leading from behind" by arming proxy forces, in this case using/exploiting poor Ukrainians.  
>>>> 
>>>> Coleen Rowley   
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> "Power is always dangerous. Power attracts the worst and corrupts the best." --Edward Abbey
>>>>  
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>
>>>> Sent: Mar 1, 2022 11:20 PM
>>>> To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>>
>>>> Cc: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>, <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>> <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> Marcy, 
>>>>  I consider the current conflict as a continuation of US determination to remain a unipolar hegemon, and Russia (and China, Cuba, Venezuela,?) is one of the few powerful nations to oppose it.  Russia is therefore considered to be an enemy of the US, and thus all is acceptable to undermine it. A similar logic applies for China. NATO is an instrument of this US policy, and Ukraine is a useful agent to further US aims.
>>>>  
>>>> We all know that the US and NATO have violated international rules against aggressive wars multiple times,  aggressions against Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan, not to mention Yugoslavia, Syria and Palestine. Now that Russia has struck back, we have this chorus of condemnation.  
>>>>  
>>>> What is really at stake is whether the US can continue its imperial campaigns unhindered. Russia presents a major hindrance.
>>>>  
>>>> Yes, it is horrible that civilians are caught in the middle of this struggle, but the fundmental reasons for the struggle are geopolitical.  To have a stable world politically, the vital security  interests of both sides must be respected. This has not been done, despite claims that there always exist nonviolent and  just solutions. In some sense, as Putin has claimed,  the attack on Ukraine is defensive. He has come to understand  the US determination to subdue Russia, and he is trying to negate it,  to deal with it.  ?He" represents Russian interests. He may fail, but I sympathize with his quandary, just as I sympathize with those trapped in the middle of the conflict. Most people want peace, but not all, including the US administration and NATO which is delighted to have Ukrainians advance its ends. 
>>>>  
>>>>  I?m outraged by US policies.  The resistance by Russia to US/NATO depredations are mostly welcome, and I regret what many on the left are doing by their harsh condemnations of Russia. The ubiquity of these condemnations by peace groups serves to strengthen and mitigate the imperial acts of the US/NATO complex. This, despite supposedly balanced criticisms of US/NATO policies by some of these groups.
>>>>  
>>>> ?mkb
>>>> 
>>>> On Feb 28, 2022, at 7:30 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> Morton, while there's no denying that NATO and the US have played a detrimental role in securing world peace & in encircling Russia and
>>>> going back on promises, etc., the bottom line is none of that excuses the Russian invasion of Ukraine---war, as we say, is not the answer. As for
>>>> the mention of Chernoybl, it must not be lost on any of us that there are 15 nuclear reactors in Ukraine, all of which pose a risk in normal times,
>>>> let alone during a war when weapons, even if not intended, can hit a reactor to contaminate land and water. Putin's decision to issue veiled threats
>>>> to launch nuclear weapons against NATO members and place his nuclear arsenal on high alert is way out of bounds and underscores the importance
>>>> of nuclear abolition. Marcy
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 3:34 PM Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> What is wrong with this statement is that it strongly condemns Russia, but only criticizes US/NATO, and too late in the statement at that.  
>>>>  
>>>>  NATO/US/Ukraine refused to consider the so-called red lines that Russia warned should not be crossed. It disregards the Russian point of view. It does not consider what the US would do if analogous threats were evident at US borders.  Russia asserted in writing what it considered necessary conditions for its security, conditions ignored by NATO/US. Russia could back off no further. On a related issue Ukraine/US/NATO talked about the Minsk accords but in fact ignored those accords.   Negotiations went nowhere. 
>>>>  
>>>> So who is reponsible for what has now occurred? You have succumbed to a bandwagon of condemnation. 
>>>>  
>>>> Moreover, alarmist and ignorant comments about the Chernobyl reactor are ill considered; Russian forces have been very much aware that its safety should be ensured.  On the other hand, the nuclear issue should be front and center on everybody?s mind. 
>>>>  
>>>> As for the rest, you make cogent points. But on the whole the statement is disappointing.   Meanwhile, more weaponry, troops are flooding into the region and sanctions applied so as to  weaken Russia, actions consistent with prior statements on various occasions that Russia (and China) are US  enemies.  
>>>>  
>>>> Very dangerous. 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Feb 28, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo__;!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR5eKNuD9g$>
>>>>  
>>>> CODEPINK Says Stop the War in Ukraine: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion
>>>>  
>>>> CODEPINK strongly condemns Russia?s invasion of Ukraine, where over 350,000 civilians have fled the country in fear of explosive weapons and missile attacks, while remaining residents from eastern to western Ukraine seek refuge in underground subways and bomb shelters. As an international peace organization, we call for an immediate ceasefire, negotiations without preconditions, withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine, an end to NATO expansion and a return to the negotiating table to address the security interests of all stakeholders. We stand in solidarity with the Ukrainian people under vicious attack and with the thousands of courageous Russian anti-war activists risking arrest and imprisonment to protest in the streets of Moscow and St. Petersburg. 
>>>> 
>>>> There is no military solution to the conflict over Ukraine, a country caught in the crossfire between the United States and Russia, the world?s two most heavily armed nuclear nations. While we denounce Putin?s reckless veiled threat to launch nuclear weapons against NATO countries, we also recognize the United States government is culpable in the proliferation and deployment of nuclear weapons, and must reverse course on its decision to pursue nuclear rearmament and instead advance verifiable agreements for global nuclear disarmament. 
>>>> 
>>>> In condemning Putin?s invasion of a sovereign country, the shelling of a Ukrainian hospital, the tanks closing in on Kyiv, we understand the U.S. has played a major role in exacerbating this conflict, facilitating a 2014 coup to overthrow the democratically elected leader of Ukraine and breaking promises not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, where offensive missiles in Romania and Poland could reach Russia in minutes.
>>>> 
>>>> Though some will argue NATO is a defensive alliance of 30 countries, we view NATO as a threat to world peace with its military encirclement of Russia and support for U.S. military aggression in Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya, where an estimated million died under a rain of bombs and millions more were displaced. NATO?s aggressive stance on China, another nuclear-armed nation, also threatens world peace and efforts to unite in the face of existential climate catastrophe. 
>>>> 
>>>> In advance of the NATO summit in June, CODEPINK calls for an international security agreement to protect the interests of all Europeans to remain free from war and occupation. Such an agreement should have been forged after the fall of the Soviet Union and dissolution of the Warsaw Pact; instead the U.S. and NATO sought further militarization in a continuance of the Cold War that spawned multiple hot wars, from Korea to Vietnam.
>>>> 
>>>> To prevent further fighting in Ukraine, to stop the loss of life, bloodshed and grave environmental degradation from the bombing of munitions plants, let us return to the 2015 Minsk II agreement that established a blueprint for peace and an end to the civil war rocking eastern Ukraine. Ukraine should be a neutral country; its incorporation into NATO should be off the table as a starting point for diplomacy.
>>>> 
>>>> During this perilous time, when further military escalation could trigger a Chernobyl radioactive meltdown or push us to the brink of nuclear annihilation, we urge President Biden and Congress to stop the flow of weapons to Ukraine, offer humanitarian assistance and safe refuge instead, renew lapsed arms control treaties (Anti-Ballistic Missile, Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces, Open Skies) the U.S. abandoned with Russia, and reject the imposition of massive sanctions that will harm the Russian people who, like us, want peace and security. 
>>>> 
>>>> Blanket sanctions on the entire Russian economy could spread economic and environmental hardship to Europe and potentially the global community with energy price hikes that may reduce energy consumption in the short term but prompt more oil drilling and lethal burning of fossil fuels in the long term.
>>>> 
>>>> In solidarity with anti-war protesters in Russia and across Europe, we call on the world?s peace-loving people, including conscripted front-line soldiers, to join us in a massive unified response to say: 
>>>> 
>>>> No to War in Ukraine; Yes to Negotiations and Peace.
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> -- 
>>>> This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace. 
>>>>  
>>>> Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
>>>> --- 
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "WBW discussion" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com>.
>>>> To view this discussion on the web visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/CAHKBExqpfrW7XDAsAqM0CWmUF0FR1Pz595NTDqGycZmhCv751w%40mail.gmail.com <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/CAHKBExqpfrW7XDAsAqM0CWmUF0FR1Pz595NTDqGycZmhCv751w*40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer__;JQ!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR4iX9Doxg$>.
>>>>  
>>>> -- 
>>>> This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace. 
>>>>  
>>>> Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
>>>> --- 
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "WBW discussion" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com>.
>>>> To view this discussion on the web visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/9A0A1E79-B31C-40B0-9F5A-1AB41464EAF0%40gmail.com <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/9A0A1E79-B31C-40B0-9F5A-1AB41464EAF0*40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer__;JQ!!DZ3fjg!rqGCLR3hEZ8fxEXrec0z3FsREAPmaDf6bYSm2a5TPSU2awY4CY0yJ-zE7_zs7YLIWg$>.
>>>>  
>>> 
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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From naiman.uiuc at gmail.com  Fri Mar  4 14:41:54 2022
From: naiman.uiuc at gmail.com (Robert Naiman)
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 09:41:54 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] An exchange
In-Reply-To: <CH0PR19MB53140094DCF019C1B743E5CAA3059@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
References: <D41C5D44-96F8-4E09-8E0B-D2C5C0240A7C@illinois.edu>
 <CH0PR19MB5314512981936BFAF7F64EA5A3049@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CALMNhNSGnYoSZyfvQ=+_GmgJmEfs=Q_16AjctBh_awgxEt_Lqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CH0PR19MB53140094DCF019C1B743E5CAA3059@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CALMNhNRoaxrbsoz9suDBQyLtsDwn3_ty=_3rb7M6qDygdTnafg@mail.gmail.com>

At a certain point, you have to decide whether you want to be part of a
consistent and principled opposition to the Empire or not. If you're
defending Putin now, you've made your decision.



On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:35 PM karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Mort, sadly we?ve drawn out the wrath of Bob Naiman who now labels us
> "Putin advocates."
>
> What?s interesting is this is the same form of vilification anti-war
> activists received during the Vietnam war. We were "anti-American for
> criticizing our government.? We were told to get a haircut and/or a job.
>
> I?ve heard the anti-war activists of the ANSWER coalition were treated in
> the same manner, spit on, degraded for their "anti-Americanism," during the
> start of the Iraq war.
>
> Jews protesting the treatment of Palestinians by Israel, were and are
> still labeled self hating Jews, if they're Jewish they can?t be vilified as
> anti-semitic, so self hating Jew is the usual slur. According to Noam
> Chomsky this slur against those questioning, goes back a very long way.
>
> Those opposing the US covert military interventions bombing and killing in
> Syria are referred to as ?Assadists." for supporting the Assad government.?
>
> Those opposing the US bombing and destruction of Yemen, by our proxy?s no
> problem, because it?s the Saudi?s doing the dirty work, never mind they
> couldn?t do it without US weapons, training and logistics. So, it?s okay to
> keep up the concern for peace for Yemen, by contacting our Democrat
> Representatives to stop it. Given it?s been seven years now with no
> stopping and a lot of starvation, I would think a different tactic might be
> in order. But never mind, it should all be over soon, with the nation if
> not totally destroyed, in complete chaos, devastation and death. We can all
> cry for Yemen then.
>
> So now, those of us calling attention over the past few months, weeks or
> eight years since 2014, to the US provocations of Russia, because they fear
> nuclear war with Nato encroaching closer to their borders every day, we?re
> referred to as "Putin advocates.?
>
> It?s unfortunate no one was paying attention to us, and now we have war,
> many are crying and urging we pray for the Ukrainian people. As anti-war
> activists I think we know, if we know our history, prayer hasn?t been very
> successful at saving people, lest we forget we have the Holocaust to remind
> us.
>
> What?s most interesting is in the past it was right wingers doing the name
> calling as they are the loyal patriots supporting, "my country right or
> wrong, blame the other guy." Now it?s the so-called liberal left.
>
>
> On Mar 3, 2022, at 6:52 PM, Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> A good question for U.S. peace advocates to ask themselves right now is:
>
> "Am I standing next to Putin's bombing of civilians in Ukraine right now?"
>
> If you're standing next to Putin's bombing of civilians in Ukraine right
> now, why call yourself a peace advocate?
>
> Why not just call yourself a Putin advocate?
>
> If the shoe fits, wear it.
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:08 AM karen aram via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
>> Mort
>>
>> I couldn?t agree with you more. This has been my point, and you have said
>> it so well. I?m pleased to see Colleen Rowley's statement supporting your
>> views as well. It?s interesting  in that she a former CIA legal expert
>> sounds very much like Noam Chomsky, on this very topic in warning what may
>> come if the USG doesn?t stop expanding Nato.
>>
>> There are many of us taking this position, but unfortunately most people
>> and some of the peace groups are focusing too much on simply ?anti-war,
>> stop the fighting.? Which is not going to solve the problem, when focusing
>> on other nations, governments than their own. It provides a veneer of that
>> which is not a simple, "russia is bad," that the USG and our corporate
>> owned media promotes.
>>
>> Thank you
>>
>>
>> On Mar 2, 2022, at 10:50 PM, Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>> You might be interested. I thought I would wade into this blast at Russia
>> by these peace groups. My initial remarks were to Marcy at CODEPINK, a
>> group I?ve usually supported.
>>
>> Mort
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> *From: *"Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com>
>> *Subject: **Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out,
>> No NATO Expansion*
>> *Date: *March 2, 2022 at 5:05:56 PM CST
>> *To: *Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>> *Cc: *"Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com>, "rowleyclan at earthlink.net"
>> <rowleyclan at earthlink.net>, "<wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>" <
>> wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>
>>
>> Naive, and worse, in that the statement overlooks(?) and ignores the
>> reason for this crisis in the first place. The US-NATO-Ukraine refusal to
>> consider what Putin/Russia was reasonably demanding for strategic
>> stability, its security. You don?t ask why there was such denial. And now
>> we have a state of turmoil looking, as was the initial intention, to demean
>> and demonize Russia.  Who will profit for this?
>>
>> On Mar 2, 2022, at 11:54 AM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Just to be clear, CODEPINK's principal positions are: Russian troops out
>> of Ukraine, Ceasefire now, Negotiations without preconditions,
>> No NATO Expansion, Neutrality for Ukraine, No weapons to Ukraine, only
>> humanitarian support; No blanket sanctions that will hurt
>> the Russian people as opposed to the oligarchs.
>>
>> I disagree with those who condemn peace groups for opposing the war in
>> Ukraine, the full-scale Russian invasion and high-alert nuclear
>> status. Putin's military aggression, not the peace movement's objection
>> to war as a problem-solver, is what will empower NATO and the most
>> warmongering elements of our government. One can be anti-imperialist
>> without being pro-war.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 7:04 AM rowleyclan at earthlink.net <
>> rowleyclan at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Exactly right, Morton! It's amazing how so much US-NATO imperialist
>>> history of illegal wars of aggression and inciting of violent regime
>>> changes in dozens of foreign countries (all to achieve their
>>> well-publicized goal since WWII of achieving unipolar, full spectrum
>>> dominance) is so quickly and fully erased in the minds of the various
>>> "peace" groups here, making their response to the situation in Ukraine so
>>> one-sided.  This morphing of liberal "peace" groups and lessening of
>>> internal resistance to US-NATO's bloody trajectory (since the costs of
>>> war upon Americans were made nearly invisible after Vietnam
>>> <https://consortiumnews.com/2018/02/04/recipe-concocted-for-perpetual-war-is-a-bitter-one/>)
>>> already became more obvious with Obama-Hillary's continuation of post 9-11
>>> wars and bombing of Libya and Syria.
>>>
>>> But living in this imperial, exceptionalist and so effectively
>>> propagandized U.S.-NATO bubble makes it understandably difficult for most,
>>> even in the "peace movement" to remain fully empathetic with those
>>> foreigners experiencing the actual costs of war and
>>> objective/critical-thinking in their assessment of proportional blame for
>>> the current bloodshed.  Unfortunately we see most "peace" groups here quite
>>> seduced by Samantha Power type "humanitarian imperialism," subsequently
>>> engaging more to protest the "enemy" Russia than to protest their own
>>> government's greater responsibility.  Obviously it takes two to tango so
>>> it's true both sides bear some (although not equal) responsibility in
>>> launching this war.  But the task for Americans should be to protest our
>>> own government's actions instead of demonizing/protesting Russia and
>>> siding, even somewhat siding, with U.S.-NATO's actions and continued war
>>> propaganda.
>>>
>>>   So while it IS fine and good for the Russian people to protest their
>>> own government's actions (and same for Ukrainians to protest their own
>>> government), it should be the same for Americans and Europeans, to protest
>>> their own governments' involvement.  Americans who protest (the "enemy")
>>> Russia are just IMHO aiding and abetting U.S.-NATO's continued militarism
>>> and war plans, which almost always entail "leading from behind" by arming
>>> proxy forces, in this case using/exploiting poor Ukrainians.
>>>
>>> Coleen Rowley
>>>
>>>
>>> "Power is always dangerous. Power attracts the worst and corrupts the
>>> best." --Edward Abbey
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Mar 1, 2022 11:20 PM
>>> To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>>> Cc: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com>, <
>>> wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com> <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No
>>> NATO Expansion
>>>
>>>
>>> Marcy,
>>>  I consider the current conflict as a continuation of US determination
>>> to remain a unipolar hegemon, and Russia (and China, Cuba, Venezuela,?) is
>>> one of the few powerful nations to oppose it.  Russia is therefore
>>> considered to be an enemy of the US, and thus all is acceptable to
>>> undermine it. A similar logic applies for China. NATO is an instrument of
>>> this US policy, and Ukraine is a useful agent to further US aims.
>>>
>>> We all know that the US and NATO have violated international rules
>>> against aggressive wars multiple times,  aggressions against Iraq, Libya,
>>> and Afghanistan, not to mention Yugoslavia, Syria and Palestine. Now that
>>> Russia has struck back, we have this chorus of condemnation.
>>>
>>> What is really at stake is whether the US can continue its imperial
>>> campaigns unhindered. Russia presents a major hindrance.
>>>
>>> Yes, it is horrible that civilians are caught in the middle of this
>>> struggle, but the fundmental reasons for the struggle are geopolitical.  To
>>> have a stable world politically, the vital security  interests of both
>>> sides must be respected. This has not been done, despite claims that there
>>> always exist nonviolent and  just solutions. In some sense, as Putin has
>>> claimed,  the attack on Ukraine is defensive. He has come to understand
>>>  the US determination to subdue Russia, and he is trying to negate it,  to
>>> deal with it.  ?He" represents Russian interests. He may fail, but I
>>> sympathize with his quandary, just as I sympathize with those trapped in
>>> the middle of the conflict. Most people want peace, but not all, including
>>> the US administration and NATO which is delighted to have Ukrainians
>>> advance its ends.
>>>
>>>  I?m outraged by US policies.  The resistance by Russia to US/NATO
>>> depredations are mostly welcome, and I regret what many on the left are
>>> doing by their harsh condemnations of Russia. The ubiquity of
>>> these condemnations by peace groups serves to strengthen and mitigate the
>>> imperial acts of the US/NATO complex. This, despite supposedly balanced
>>> criticisms of US/NATO policies by some of these groups.
>>>
>>> ?mkb
>>>
>>> On Feb 28, 2022, at 7:30 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> Morton, while there's no denying that NATO and the US have played a
>>> detrimental role in securing world peace & in encircling Russia and
>>> going back on promises, etc., the bottom line is none of that excuses
>>> the Russian invasion of Ukraine---war, as we say, is not the answer. As for
>>> the mention of Chernoybl, it must not be lost on any of us that there
>>> are 15 nuclear reactors in Ukraine, all of which pose a risk in normal
>>> times,
>>> let alone during a war when weapons, even if not intended, can hit a
>>> reactor to contaminate land and water. Putin's decision to issue veiled
>>> threats
>>> to launch nuclear weapons against NATO members and place his nuclear
>>> arsenal on high alert is way out of bounds and underscores the importance
>>> of nuclear abolition. Marcy
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 3:34 PM Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What is wrong with this statement is that it strongly condemns Russia,
>>>> but only criticizes US/NATO, and too late in the statement at that.
>>>>
>>>>  NATO/US/Ukraine refused to consider the so-called red lines that
>>>> Russia warned should not be crossed. It disregards the Russian point of
>>>> view. It does not consider what the US would do if analogous threats were
>>>> evident at US borders.  Russia asserted in writing what it considered *necessary
>>>> conditions* for its security, conditions ignored by NATO/US. Russia
>>>> could back off no further. On a related issue Ukraine/US/NATO talked about
>>>> the Minsk accords but in fact ignored those accords.   Negotiations
>>>> went nowhere.
>>>>
>>>> So who is reponsible for what has now occurred? You have succumbed to a
>>>> bandwagon of condemnation.
>>>>
>>>> Moreover, alarmist and ignorant comments about the Chernobyl reactor
>>>> are ill considered; Russian forces have been very much aware that its
>>>> safety should be ensured.  On the other hand, the nuclear issue should be
>>>> front and center on everybody?s mind.
>>>>
>>>> As for the rest, you make cogent points. But on the whole the statement
>>>> is disappointing.   Meanwhile, more weaponry, troops are flooding into the
>>>> region and sanctions applied so as to  weaken Russia, actions consistent
>>>> with prior statements on various occasions that Russia (and China) are US
>>>>  enemies.
>>>>
>>>> Very dangerous.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 28, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo__;!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR5eKNuD9g$>
>>>>
>>>> CODEPINK Says Stop the War in Ukraine: Russian Troops Out, No NATO
>>>> Expansion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CODEPINK strongly condemns Russia?s invasion of Ukraine, where over
>>>> 350,000 civilians have fled the country in fear of explosive weapons and
>>>> missile attacks, while remaining residents from eastern to western Ukraine
>>>> seek refuge in underground subways and bomb shelters. As an international
>>>> peace organization, we call for an immediate ceasefire, negotiations
>>>> without preconditions, withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine, an end to
>>>> NATO expansion and a return to the negotiating table to address the
>>>> security interests of all stakeholders. We stand in solidarity with the
>>>> Ukrainian people under vicious attack and with the thousands of courageous
>>>> Russian anti-war activists risking arrest and imprisonment to protest in
>>>> the streets of Moscow and St. Petersburg.
>>>>
>>>> There is no military solution to the conflict over Ukraine, a country
>>>> caught in the crossfire between the United States and Russia, the world?s
>>>> two most heavily armed nuclear nations. While we denounce Putin?s
>>>> reckless veiled threat to launch nuclear weapons against NATO countries, we
>>>> also recognize the United States government is culpable in the
>>>> proliferation and deployment of nuclear weapons, and must reverse course on
>>>> its decision to pursue nuclear rearmament and instead advance verifiable
>>>> agreements for global nuclear disarmament.
>>>>
>>>> In condemning Putin?s invasion of a sovereign country, the shelling of
>>>> a Ukrainian hospital, the tanks closing in on Kyiv, we understand the U.S.
>>>> has played a major role in exacerbating this conflict, facilitating a 2014
>>>> coup to overthrow the democratically elected leader of Ukraine and breaking
>>>> promises not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, where offensive missiles
>>>> in Romania and Poland could reach Russia in minutes.
>>>>
>>>> Though some will argue NATO is a defensive alliance of 30 countries, we
>>>> view NATO as a threat to world peace with its military encirclement of
>>>> Russia and support for U.S. military aggression in Kosovo, Afghanistan,
>>>> Iraq and Libya, where an estimated million died under a rain of bombs and
>>>> millions more were displaced. NATO?s aggressive stance on China, another
>>>> nuclear-armed nation, also threatens world peace and efforts to unite in
>>>> the face of existential climate catastrophe.
>>>>
>>>> In advance of the NATO summit in June, CODEPINK calls for an
>>>> international security agreement to protect the interests of all Europeans
>>>> to remain free from war and occupation. Such an agreement should have been
>>>> forged after the fall of the Soviet Union and dissolution of the Warsaw
>>>> Pact; instead the U.S. and NATO sought further militarization in a
>>>> continuance of the Cold War that spawned multiple hot wars, from Korea to
>>>> Vietnam.
>>>>
>>>> To prevent further fighting in Ukraine, to stop the loss of life,
>>>> bloodshed and grave environmental degradation from the bombing of munitions
>>>> plants, let us return to the 2015 Minsk II agreement that established a
>>>> blueprint for peace and an end to the civil war rocking eastern Ukraine.
>>>> Ukraine should be a neutral country; its incorporation into NATO should be
>>>> off the table as a starting point for diplomacy.
>>>>
>>>> During this perilous time, when further military escalation could
>>>> trigger a Chernobyl radioactive meltdown or push us to the brink of nuclear
>>>> annihilation, we urge President Biden and Congress to stop the flow of
>>>> weapons to Ukraine, offer humanitarian assistance and safe refuge instead,
>>>> renew lapsed arms control treaties (Anti-Ballistic Missile, Intermediate
>>>> Range Nuclear Forces, Open Skies) the U.S. abandoned with Russia, and
>>>> reject the imposition of massive sanctions that will harm the Russian
>>>> people who, like us, want peace and security.
>>>>
>>>> Blanket sanctions on the entire Russian economy could spread economic
>>>> and environmental hardship to Europe and potentially the global community
>>>> with energy price hikes that may reduce energy consumption in the short
>>>> term but prompt more oil drilling and lethal burning of fossil fuels in the
>>>> long term.
>>>>
>>>> In solidarity with anti-war protesters in Russia and across Europe, we
>>>> call on the world?s peace-loving people, including conscripted front-line
>>>> soldiers, to join us in a massive unified response to say:
>>>>
>>>> No to War in Ukraine; Yes to Negotiations and Peace.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent
>>>> movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace.
>>>>
>>>> Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not
>>>> advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
>>>> ---
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "WBW discussion" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> an email to wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/CAHKBExqpfrW7XDAsAqM0CWmUF0FR1Pz595NTDqGycZmhCv751w%40mail.gmail.com
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/CAHKBExqpfrW7XDAsAqM0CWmUF0FR1Pz595NTDqGycZmhCv751w*40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer__;JQ!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR4iX9Doxg$>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent
>>> movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace.
>>>
>>> Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not
>>> advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
>>> ---
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "WBW discussion" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/9A0A1E79-B31C-40B0-9F5A-1AB41464EAF0%40gmail.com
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/9A0A1E79-B31C-40B0-9F5A-1AB41464EAF0%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> *From: *"Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com>
>> *Subject: **Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out,
>> No NATO Expansion*
>> *Date: *March 2, 2022 at 5:05:56 PM CST
>> *To: *Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>> *Cc: *"Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com>, "rowleyclan at earthlink.net"
>> <rowleyclan at earthlink.net>, "<wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>" <
>> wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>
>>
>> Naive, and worse, in that the statement overlooks(?) and ignores the
>> reason for this crisis in the first place. The US-NATO-Ukraine refusal to
>> consider what Putin/Russia was reasonably demanding for strategic
>> stability, its security. You don?t ask why there was such denial. And now
>> we have a state of turmoil looking, as was the initial intention, to demean
>> and demonize Russia.  Who will profit for this?
>>
>> On Mar 2, 2022, at 11:54 AM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Just to be clear, CODEPINK's principal positions are: Russian troops out
>> of Ukraine, Ceasefire now, Negotiations without preconditions,
>> No NATO Expansion, Neutrality for Ukraine, No weapons to Ukraine, only
>> humanitarian support; No blanket sanctions that will hurt
>> the Russian people as opposed to the oligarchs.
>>
>> I disagree with those who condemn peace groups for opposing the war in
>> Ukraine, the full-scale Russian invasion and high-alert nuclear
>> status. Putin's military aggression, not the peace movement's objection
>> to war as a problem-solver, is what will empower NATO and the most
>> warmongering elements of our government. One can be anti-imperialist
>> without being pro-war.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 7:04 AM rowleyclan at earthlink.net <
>> rowleyclan at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Exactly right, Morton! It's amazing how so much US-NATO imperialist
>>> history of illegal wars of aggression and inciting of violent regime
>>> changes in dozens of foreign countries (all to achieve their
>>> well-publicized goal since WWII of achieving unipolar, full spectrum
>>> dominance) is so quickly and fully erased in the minds of the various
>>> "peace" groups here, making their response to the situation in Ukraine so
>>> one-sided.  This morphing of liberal "peace" groups and lessening of
>>> internal resistance to US-NATO's bloody trajectory (since the costs of
>>> war upon Americans were made nearly invisible after Vietnam
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://consortiumnews.com/2018/02/04/recipe-concocted-for-perpetual-war-is-a-bitter-one/__;!!DZ3fjg!rqGCLR3hEZ8fxEXrec0z3FsREAPmaDf6bYSm2a5TPSU2awY4CY0yJ-zE7_xkvvxHhw$>)
>>> already became more obvious with Obama-Hillary's continuation of post 9-11
>>> wars and bombing of Libya and Syria.
>>>
>>> But living in this imperial, exceptionalist and so effectively
>>> propagandized U.S.-NATO bubble makes it understandably difficult for most,
>>> even in the "peace movement" to remain fully empathetic with those
>>> foreigners experiencing the actual costs of war and
>>> objective/critical-thinking in their assessment of proportional blame for
>>> the current bloodshed.  Unfortunately we see most "peace" groups here quite
>>> seduced by Samantha Power type "humanitarian imperialism," subsequently
>>> engaging more to protest the "enemy" Russia than to protest their own
>>> government's greater responsibility.  Obviously it takes two to tango so
>>> it's true both sides bear some (although not equal) responsibility in
>>> launching this war.  But the task for Americans should be to protest our
>>> own government's actions instead of demonizing/protesting Russia and
>>> siding, even somewhat siding, with U.S.-NATO's actions and continued war
>>> propaganda.
>>>
>>>   So while it IS fine and good for the Russian people to protest their
>>> own government's actions (and same for Ukrainians to protest their own
>>> government), it should be the same for Americans and Europeans, to protest
>>> their own governments' involvement.  Americans who protest (the "enemy")
>>> Russia are just IMHO aiding and abetting U.S.-NATO's continued militarism
>>> and war plans, which almost always entail "leading from behind" by arming
>>> proxy forces, in this case using/exploiting poor Ukrainians.
>>>
>>> Coleen Rowley
>>>
>>>
>>> "Power is always dangerous. Power attracts the worst and corrupts the
>>> best." --Edward Abbey
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Mar 1, 2022 11:20 PM
>>> To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>>> Cc: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com>, <
>>> wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com> <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No
>>> NATO Expansion
>>>
>>>
>>> Marcy,
>>>  I consider the current conflict as a continuation of US determination
>>> to remain a unipolar hegemon, and Russia (and China, Cuba, Venezuela,?) is
>>> one of the few powerful nations to oppose it.  Russia is therefore
>>> considered to be an enemy of the US, and thus all is acceptable to
>>> undermine it. A similar logic applies for China. NATO is an instrument of
>>> this US policy, and Ukraine is a useful agent to further US aims.
>>>
>>> We all know that the US and NATO have violated international rules
>>> against aggressive wars multiple times,  aggressions against Iraq, Libya,
>>> and Afghanistan, not to mention Yugoslavia, Syria and Palestine. Now that
>>> Russia has struck back, we have this chorus of condemnation.
>>>
>>> What is really at stake is whether the US can continue its imperial
>>> campaigns unhindered. Russia presents a major hindrance.
>>>
>>> Yes, it is horrible that civilians are caught in the middle of this
>>> struggle, but the fundmental reasons for the struggle are geopolitical.  To
>>> have a stable world politically, the vital security  interests of both
>>> sides must be respected. This has not been done, despite claims that there
>>> always exist nonviolent and  just solutions. In some sense, as Putin has
>>> claimed,  the attack on Ukraine is defensive. He has come to understand
>>>  the US determination to subdue Russia, and he is trying to negate it,  to
>>> deal with it.  ?He" represents Russian interests. He may fail, but I
>>> sympathize with his quandary, just as I sympathize with those trapped in
>>> the middle of the conflict. Most people want peace, but not all, including
>>> the US administration and NATO which is delighted to have Ukrainians
>>> advance its ends.
>>>
>>>  I?m outraged by US policies.  The resistance by Russia to US/NATO
>>> depredations are mostly welcome, and I regret what many on the left are
>>> doing by their harsh condemnations of Russia. The ubiquity of
>>> these condemnations by peace groups serves to strengthen and mitigate the
>>> imperial acts of the US/NATO complex. This, despite supposedly balanced
>>> criticisms of US/NATO policies by some of these groups.
>>>
>>> ?mkb
>>>
>>> On Feb 28, 2022, at 7:30 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> Morton, while there's no denying that NATO and the US have played a
>>> detrimental role in securing world peace & in encircling Russia and
>>> going back on promises, etc., the bottom line is none of that excuses
>>> the Russian invasion of Ukraine---war, as we say, is not the answer. As for
>>> the mention of Chernoybl, it must not be lost on any of us that there
>>> are 15 nuclear reactors in Ukraine, all of which pose a risk in normal
>>> times,
>>> let alone during a war when weapons, even if not intended, can hit a
>>> reactor to contaminate land and water. Putin's decision to issue veiled
>>> threats
>>> to launch nuclear weapons against NATO members and place his nuclear
>>> arsenal on high alert is way out of bounds and underscores the importance
>>> of nuclear abolition. Marcy
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 3:34 PM Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What is wrong with this statement is that it strongly condemns Russia,
>>>> but only criticizes US/NATO, and too late in the statement at that.
>>>>
>>>>  NATO/US/Ukraine refused to consider the so-called red lines that
>>>> Russia warned should not be crossed. It disregards the Russian point of
>>>> view. It does not consider what the US would do if analogous threats were
>>>> evident at US borders.  Russia asserted in writing what it considered *necessary
>>>> conditions* for its security, conditions ignored by NATO/US. Russia
>>>> could back off no further. On a related issue Ukraine/US/NATO talked about
>>>> the Minsk accords but in fact ignored those accords.   Negotiations
>>>> went nowhere.
>>>>
>>>> So who is reponsible for what has now occurred? You have succumbed to a
>>>> bandwagon of condemnation.
>>>>
>>>> Moreover, alarmist and ignorant comments about the Chernobyl reactor
>>>> are ill considered; Russian forces have been very much aware that its
>>>> safety should be ensured.  On the other hand, the nuclear issue should be
>>>> front and center on everybody?s mind.
>>>>
>>>> As for the rest, you make cogent points. But on the whole the statement
>>>> is disappointing.   Meanwhile, more weaponry, troops are flooding into the
>>>> region and sanctions applied so as to  weaken Russia, actions consistent
>>>> with prior statements on various occasions that Russia (and China) are US
>>>>  enemies.
>>>>
>>>> Very dangerous.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 28, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo__;!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR5eKNuD9g$>
>>>>
>>>> CODEPINK Says Stop the War in Ukraine: Russian Troops Out, No NATO
>>>> Expansion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CODEPINK strongly condemns Russia?s invasion of Ukraine, where over
>>>> 350,000 civilians have fled the country in fear of explosive weapons and
>>>> missile attacks, while remaining residents from eastern to western Ukraine
>>>> seek refuge in underground subways and bomb shelters. As an international
>>>> peace organization, we call for an immediate ceasefire, negotiations
>>>> without preconditions, withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine, an end to
>>>> NATO expansion and a return to the negotiating table to address the
>>>> security interests of all stakeholders. We stand in solidarity with the
>>>> Ukrainian people under vicious attack and with the thousands of courageous
>>>> Russian anti-war activists risking arrest and imprisonment to protest in
>>>> the streets of Moscow and St. Petersburg.
>>>>
>>>> There is no military solution to the conflict over Ukraine, a country
>>>> caught in the crossfire between the United States and Russia, the world?s
>>>> two most heavily armed nuclear nations. While we denounce Putin?s
>>>> reckless veiled threat to launch nuclear weapons against NATO countries, we
>>>> also recognize the United States government is culpable in the
>>>> proliferation and deployment of nuclear weapons, and must reverse course on
>>>> its decision to pursue nuclear rearmament and instead advance verifiable
>>>> agreements for global nuclear disarmament.
>>>>
>>>> In condemning Putin?s invasion of a sovereign country, the shelling of
>>>> a Ukrainian hospital, the tanks closing in on Kyiv, we understand the U.S.
>>>> has played a major role in exacerbating this conflict, facilitating a 2014
>>>> coup to overthrow the democratically elected leader of Ukraine and breaking
>>>> promises not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, where offensive missiles
>>>> in Romania and Poland could reach Russia in minutes.
>>>>
>>>> Though some will argue NATO is a defensive alliance of 30 countries, we
>>>> view NATO as a threat to world peace with its military encirclement of
>>>> Russia and support for U.S. military aggression in Kosovo, Afghanistan,
>>>> Iraq and Libya, where an estimated million died under a rain of bombs and
>>>> millions more were displaced. NATO?s aggressive stance on China, another
>>>> nuclear-armed nation, also threatens world peace and efforts to unite in
>>>> the face of existential climate catastrophe.
>>>>
>>>> In advance of the NATO summit in June, CODEPINK calls for an
>>>> international security agreement to protect the interests of all Europeans
>>>> to remain free from war and occupation. Such an agreement should have been
>>>> forged after the fall of the Soviet Union and dissolution of the Warsaw
>>>> Pact; instead the U.S. and NATO sought further militarization in a
>>>> continuance of the Cold War that spawned multiple hot wars, from Korea to
>>>> Vietnam.
>>>>
>>>> To prevent further fighting in Ukraine, to stop the loss of life,
>>>> bloodshed and grave environmental degradation from the bombing of munitions
>>>> plants, let us return to the 2015 Minsk II agreement that established a
>>>> blueprint for peace and an end to the civil war rocking eastern Ukraine.
>>>> Ukraine should be a neutral country; its incorporation into NATO should be
>>>> off the table as a starting point for diplomacy.
>>>>
>>>> During this perilous time, when further military escalation could
>>>> trigger a Chernobyl radioactive meltdown or push us to the brink of nuclear
>>>> annihilation, we urge President Biden and Congress to stop the flow of
>>>> weapons to Ukraine, offer humanitarian assistance and safe refuge instead,
>>>> renew lapsed arms control treaties (Anti-Ballistic Missile, Intermediate
>>>> Range Nuclear Forces, Open Skies) the U.S. abandoned with Russia, and
>>>> reject the imposition of massive sanctions that will harm the Russian
>>>> people who, like us, want peace and security.
>>>>
>>>> Blanket sanctions on the entire Russian economy could spread economic
>>>> and environmental hardship to Europe and potentially the global community
>>>> with energy price hikes that may reduce energy consumption in the short
>>>> term but prompt more oil drilling and lethal burning of fossil fuels in the
>>>> long term.
>>>>
>>>> In solidarity with anti-war protesters in Russia and across Europe, we
>>>> call on the world?s peace-loving people, including conscripted front-line
>>>> soldiers, to join us in a massive unified response to say:
>>>>
>>>> No to War in Ukraine; Yes to Negotiations and Peace.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent
>>>> movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace.
>>>>
>>>> Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not
>>>> advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
>>>> ---
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "WBW discussion" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> an email to wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/CAHKBExqpfrW7XDAsAqM0CWmUF0FR1Pz595NTDqGycZmhCv751w%40mail.gmail.com
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/CAHKBExqpfrW7XDAsAqM0CWmUF0FR1Pz595NTDqGycZmhCv751w*40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer__;JQ!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR4iX9Doxg$>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent
>>> movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace.
>>>
>>> Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not
>>> advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
>>> ---
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "WBW discussion" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/9A0A1E79-B31C-40B0-9F5A-1AB41464EAF0%40gmail.com
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/9A0A1E79-B31C-40B0-9F5A-1AB41464EAF0*40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer__;JQ!!DZ3fjg!rqGCLR3hEZ8fxEXrec0z3FsREAPmaDf6bYSm2a5TPSU2awY4CY0yJ-zE7_zs7YLIWg$>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  4 18:16:49 2022
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (karen aram)
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 12:16:49 -0600
Subject: [Peace-discuss] An exchange
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Please read the second, third and fourth paragraphs below, these are the solutions. Solutions that are critical to ending the war, and if implemented when some of us were suggesting they be implemented, there might not be a war. Waiting until it begins and then just bashing Putin, blaming  Russia, isn?t going to stop the war. As Americans we need to take responsibility for that which we are responsible and stop blaming others.

From International Prof. Francis Boyle:

"Stop the war.

This war in Ukraine must be immediately terminated before it expands and sucks in the European NATO members and the United States.

Toward that end, President Joe Biden must publicly announce that NATO expansion is over for good and that Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova will not be joining NATO as member states.

Biden must also call for an international peace conference for the creation of a treaty that will establish the permanent neutrality of Ukraine guaranteed by the United Nations Security Council under Chapter 7 of the U.N. charter.

Then negotiations can take place between the United States and Russia over the de-nuclearization of Europe, including the removal of U.S. tactical nuclear weapons from NATO states that are there in violation of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and a restoration of the Intermediate Nuclear Forces Treaty that was so foolishly and recklessly terminated by the Trump administration.

Then a new round of the Conventional Forces in Europe Treaty negotiations should be conducted in order to substantially lessen the tensions on land, sea and air between Russia and the U.S./NATO states, including over the emplacement of alleged U.S. anti-ballistic missile sites in Europe that threaten Russia.

Make no mistake about it: The origins of World War I and World War II hover like twin Swords of Damocles over the heads of all humanity.

FRANCIS BOYLE









> On Mar 4, 2022, at 8:41 AM, Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> At a certain point, you have to decide whether you want to be part of a consistent and principled opposition to the Empire or not. If you're defending Putin now, you've made your decision. 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:35 PM karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com <mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com>> wrote:
> Mort, sadly we?ve drawn out the wrath of Bob Naiman who now labels us "Putin advocates."
> 
> What?s interesting is this is the same form of vilification anti-war activists received during the Vietnam war. We were "anti-American for criticizing our government.? We were told to get a haircut and/or a job.
> 
> I?ve heard the anti-war activists of the ANSWER coalition were treated in the same manner, spit on, degraded for their "anti-Americanism," during the start of the Iraq war. 
> 
> Jews protesting the treatment of Palestinians by Israel, were and are still labeled self hating Jews, if they're Jewish they can?t be vilified as anti-semitic, so self hating Jew is the usual slur. According to Noam Chomsky this slur against those questioning, goes back a very long way.
> 
> Those opposing the US covert military interventions bombing and killing in Syria are referred to as ?Assadists." for supporting the Assad government.?
> 
> Those opposing the US bombing and destruction of Yemen, by our proxy?s no problem, because it?s the Saudi?s doing the dirty work, never mind they couldn?t do it without US weapons, training and logistics. So, it?s okay to keep up the concern for peace for Yemen, by contacting our Democrat Representatives to stop it. Given it?s been seven years now with no stopping and a lot of starvation, I would think a different tactic might be in order. But never mind, it should all be over soon, with the nation if not totally destroyed, in complete chaos, devastation and death. We can all cry for Yemen then.
> 
> So now, those of us calling attention over the past few months, weeks or eight years since 2014, to the US provocations of Russia, because they fear nuclear war with Nato encroaching closer to their borders every day, we?re referred to as "Putin advocates.?
> 
> It?s unfortunate no one was paying attention to us, and now we have war, many are crying and urging we pray for the Ukrainian people. As anti-war activists I think we know, if we know our history, prayer hasn?t been very successful at saving people, lest we forget we have the Holocaust to remind us. 
> 
> What?s most interesting is in the past it was right wingers doing the name calling as they are the loyal patriots supporting, "my country right or wrong, blame the other guy." Now it?s the so-called liberal left. 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 3, 2022, at 6:52 PM, Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com <mailto:naiman.uiuc at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> A good question for U.S. peace advocates to ask themselves right now is: 
>> 
>> "Am I standing next to Putin's bombing of civilians in Ukraine right now?" 
>> 
>> If you're standing next to Putin's bombing of civilians in Ukraine right now, why call yourself a peace advocate? 
>> 
>> Why not just call yourself a Putin advocate? 
>> 
>> If the shoe fits, wear it. 
>> 
>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:08 AM karen aram via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
>> Mort
>> 
>> I couldn?t agree with you more. This has been my point, and you have said it so well. I?m pleased to see Colleen Rowley's statement supporting your views as well. It?s interesting  in that she a former CIA legal expert sounds very much like Noam Chomsky, on this very topic in warning what may come if the USG doesn?t stop expanding Nato. 
>> 
>> There are many of us taking this position, but unfortunately most people and some of the peace groups are focusing too much on simply ?anti-war, stop the fighting.? Which is not going to solve the problem, when focusing on other nations, governments than their own. It provides a veneer of that which is not a simple, "russia is bad," that the USG and our corporate owned media promotes. 
>> 
>> Thank you
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 2, 2022, at 10:50 PM, Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu <mailto:brussel at illinois.edu>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> You might be interested. I thought I would wade into this blast at Russia by these peace groups. My initial remarks were to Marcy at CODEPINK, a group I?ve usually supported.
>>> 
>>> Mort
>>> 
>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>> 
>>>> From: "Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion
>>>> Date: March 2, 2022 at 5:05:56 PM CST
>>>> To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>>
>>>> Cc: "Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>, "rowleyclan at earthlink.net <mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>" <rowleyclan at earthlink.net <mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>>, "<wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>" <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>
>>>> 
>>>> Naive, and worse, in that the statement overlooks(?) and ignores the reason for this crisis in the first place. The US-NATO-Ukraine refusal to consider what Putin/Russia was reasonably demanding for strategic stability, its security. You don?t ask why there was such denial. And now we have a state of turmoil looking, as was the initial intention, to demean and demonize Russia.  Who will profit for this?
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 2, 2022, at 11:54 AM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Just to be clear, CODEPINK's principal positions are: Russian troops out of Ukraine, Ceasefire now, Negotiations without preconditions,
>>>>> No NATO Expansion, Neutrality for Ukraine, No weapons to Ukraine, only humanitarian support; No blanket sanctions that will hurt
>>>>> the Russian people as opposed to the oligarchs.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I disagree with those who condemn peace groups for opposing the war in Ukraine, the full-scale Russian invasion and high-alert nuclear
>>>>> status. Putin's military aggression, not the peace movement's objection to war as a problem-solver, is what will empower NATO and the most
>>>>> warmongering elements of our government. One can be anti-imperialist without being pro-war.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 7:04 AM rowleyclan at earthlink.net <mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net> <rowleyclan at earthlink.net <mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>>>>> Exactly right, Morton! It's amazing how so much US-NATO imperialist history of illegal wars of aggression and inciting of violent regime changes in dozens of foreign countries (all to achieve their well-publicized goal since WWII of achieving unipolar, full spectrum dominance) is so quickly and fully erased in the minds of the various "peace" groups here, making their response to the situation in Ukraine so one-sided.  This morphing of liberal "peace" groups and lessening of internal resistance to US-NATO's bloody trajectory (since the costs of war upon Americans were made nearly invisible after Vietnam <https://consortiumnews.com/2018/02/04/recipe-concocted-for-perpetual-war-is-a-bitter-one/>) already became more obvious with Obama-Hillary's continuation of post 9-11 wars and bombing of Libya and Syria.   
>>>>> 
>>>>> But living in this imperial, exceptionalist and so effectively propagandized U.S.-NATO bubble makes it understandably difficult for most, even in the "peace movement" to remain fully empathetic with those foreigners experiencing the actual costs of war and objective/critical-thinking in their assessment of proportional blame for the current bloodshed.  Unfortunately we see most "peace" groups here quite seduced by Samantha Power type "humanitarian imperialism," subsequently engaging more to protest the "enemy" Russia than to protest their own government's greater responsibility.  Obviously it takes two to tango so it's true both sides bear some (although not equal) responsibility in launching this war.  But the task for Americans should be to protest our own government's actions instead of demonizing/protesting Russia and siding, even somewhat siding, with U.S.-NATO's actions and continued war propaganda.  
>>>>> 
>>>>>   So while it IS fine and good for the Russian people to protest their own government's actions (and same for Ukrainians to protest their own government), it should be the same for Americans and Europeans, to protest their own governments' involvement.  Americans who protest (the "enemy") Russia are just IMHO aiding and abetting U.S.-NATO's continued militarism and war plans, which almost always entail "leading from behind" by arming proxy forces, in this case using/exploiting poor Ukrainians.  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Coleen Rowley   
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> "Power is always dangerous. Power attracts the worst and corrupts the best." --Edward Abbey
>>>>>  
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>
>>>>> Sent: Mar 1, 2022 11:20 PM
>>>>> To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>>
>>>>> Cc: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>, <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>> <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> Marcy, 
>>>>>  I consider the current conflict as a continuation of US determination to remain a unipolar hegemon, and Russia (and China, Cuba, Venezuela,?) is one of the few powerful nations to oppose it.  Russia is therefore considered to be an enemy of the US, and thus all is acceptable to undermine it. A similar logic applies for China. NATO is an instrument of this US policy, and Ukraine is a useful agent to further US aims.
>>>>>  
>>>>> We all know that the US and NATO have violated international rules against aggressive wars multiple times,  aggressions against Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan, not to mention Yugoslavia, Syria and Palestine. Now that Russia has struck back, we have this chorus of condemnation.  
>>>>>  
>>>>> What is really at stake is whether the US can continue its imperial campaigns unhindered. Russia presents a major hindrance.
>>>>>  
>>>>> Yes, it is horrible that civilians are caught in the middle of this struggle, but the fundmental reasons for the struggle are geopolitical.  To have a stable world politically, the vital security  interests of both sides must be respected. This has not been done, despite claims that there always exist nonviolent and  just solutions. In some sense, as Putin has claimed,  the attack on Ukraine is defensive. He has come to understand  the US determination to subdue Russia, and he is trying to negate it,  to deal with it.  ?He" represents Russian interests. He may fail, but I sympathize with his quandary, just as I sympathize with those trapped in the middle of the conflict. Most people want peace, but not all, including the US administration and NATO which is delighted to have Ukrainians advance its ends. 
>>>>>  
>>>>>  I?m outraged by US policies.  The resistance by Russia to US/NATO depredations are mostly welcome, and I regret what many on the left are doing by their harsh condemnations of Russia. The ubiquity of these condemnations by peace groups serves to strengthen and mitigate the imperial acts of the US/NATO complex. This, despite supposedly balanced criticisms of US/NATO policies by some of these groups.
>>>>>  
>>>>> ?mkb
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Feb 28, 2022, at 7:30 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Morton, while there's no denying that NATO and the US have played a detrimental role in securing world peace & in encircling Russia and
>>>>> going back on promises, etc., the bottom line is none of that excuses the Russian invasion of Ukraine---war, as we say, is not the answer. As for
>>>>> the mention of Chernoybl, it must not be lost on any of us that there are 15 nuclear reactors in Ukraine, all of which pose a risk in normal times,
>>>>> let alone during a war when weapons, even if not intended, can hit a reactor to contaminate land and water. Putin's decision to issue veiled threats
>>>>> to launch nuclear weapons against NATO members and place his nuclear arsenal on high alert is way out of bounds and underscores the importance
>>>>> of nuclear abolition. Marcy
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 3:34 PM Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> What is wrong with this statement is that it strongly condemns Russia, but only criticizes US/NATO, and too late in the statement at that.  
>>>>>  
>>>>>  NATO/US/Ukraine refused to consider the so-called red lines that Russia warned should not be crossed. It disregards the Russian point of view. It does not consider what the US would do if analogous threats were evident at US borders.  Russia asserted in writing what it considered necessary conditions for its security, conditions ignored by NATO/US. Russia could back off no further. On a related issue Ukraine/US/NATO talked about the Minsk accords but in fact ignored those accords.   Negotiations went nowhere. 
>>>>>  
>>>>> So who is reponsible for what has now occurred? You have succumbed to a bandwagon of condemnation. 
>>>>>  
>>>>> Moreover, alarmist and ignorant comments about the Chernobyl reactor are ill considered; Russian forces have been very much aware that its safety should be ensured.  On the other hand, the nuclear issue should be front and center on everybody?s mind. 
>>>>>  
>>>>> As for the rest, you make cogent points. But on the whole the statement is disappointing.   Meanwhile, more weaponry, troops are flooding into the region and sanctions applied so as to  weaken Russia, actions consistent with prior statements on various occasions that Russia (and China) are US  enemies.  
>>>>>  
>>>>> Very dangerous. 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Feb 28, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo__;!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR5eKNuD9g$>
>>>>>  
>>>>> CODEPINK Says Stop the War in Ukraine: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion
>>>>>  
>>>>> CODEPINK strongly condemns Russia?s invasion of Ukraine, where over 350,000 civilians have fled the country in fear of explosive weapons and missile attacks, while remaining residents from eastern to western Ukraine seek refuge in underground subways and bomb shelters. As an international peace organization, we call for an immediate ceasefire, negotiations without preconditions, withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine, an end to NATO expansion and a return to the negotiating table to address the security interests of all stakeholders. We stand in solidarity with the Ukrainian people under vicious attack and with the thousands of courageous Russian anti-war activists risking arrest and imprisonment to protest in the streets of Moscow and St. Petersburg. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> There is no military solution to the conflict over Ukraine, a country caught in the crossfire between the United States and Russia, the world?s two most heavily armed nuclear nations. While we denounce Putin?s reckless veiled threat to launch nuclear weapons against NATO countries, we also recognize the United States government is culpable in the proliferation and deployment of nuclear weapons, and must reverse course on its decision to pursue nuclear rearmament and instead advance verifiable agreements for global nuclear disarmament. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> In condemning Putin?s invasion of a sovereign country, the shelling of a Ukrainian hospital, the tanks closing in on Kyiv, we understand the U.S. has played a major role in exacerbating this conflict, facilitating a 2014 coup to overthrow the democratically elected leader of Ukraine and breaking promises not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, where offensive missiles in Romania and Poland could reach Russia in minutes.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Though some will argue NATO is a defensive alliance of 30 countries, we view NATO as a threat to world peace with its military encirclement of Russia and support for U.S. military aggression in Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya, where an estimated million died under a rain of bombs and millions more were displaced. NATO?s aggressive stance on China, another nuclear-armed nation, also threatens world peace and efforts to unite in the face of existential climate catastrophe. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> In advance of the NATO summit in June, CODEPINK calls for an international security agreement to protect the interests of all Europeans to remain free from war and occupation. Such an agreement should have been forged after the fall of the Soviet Union and dissolution of the Warsaw Pact; instead the U.S. and NATO sought further militarization in a continuance of the Cold War that spawned multiple hot wars, from Korea to Vietnam.
>>>>> 
>>>>> To prevent further fighting in Ukraine, to stop the loss of life, bloodshed and grave environmental degradation from the bombing of munitions plants, let us return to the 2015 Minsk II agreement that established a blueprint for peace and an end to the civil war rocking eastern Ukraine. Ukraine should be a neutral country; its incorporation into NATO should be off the table as a starting point for diplomacy.
>>>>> 
>>>>> During this perilous time, when further military escalation could trigger a Chernobyl radioactive meltdown or push us to the brink of nuclear annihilation, we urge President Biden and Congress to stop the flow of weapons to Ukraine, offer humanitarian assistance and safe refuge instead, renew lapsed arms control treaties (Anti-Ballistic Missile, Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces, Open Skies) the U.S. abandoned with Russia, and reject the imposition of massive sanctions that will harm the Russian people who, like us, want peace and security. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Blanket sanctions on the entire Russian economy could spread economic and environmental hardship to Europe and potentially the global community with energy price hikes that may reduce energy consumption in the short term but prompt more oil drilling and lethal burning of fossil fuels in the long term.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In solidarity with anti-war protesters in Russia and across Europe, we call on the world?s peace-loving people, including conscripted front-line soldiers, to join us in a massive unified response to say: 
>>>>> 
>>>>> No to War in Ukraine; Yes to Negotiations and Peace.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace. 
>>>>>  
>>>>> Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
>>>>> --- 
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "WBW discussion" group.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com>.
>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/CAHKBExqpfrW7XDAsAqM0CWmUF0FR1Pz595NTDqGycZmhCv751w%40mail.gmail.com <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/CAHKBExqpfrW7XDAsAqM0CWmUF0FR1Pz595NTDqGycZmhCv751w*40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer__;JQ!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR4iX9Doxg$>.
>>>>>  
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace. 
>>>>>  
>>>>> Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
>>>>> --- 
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "WBW discussion" group.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com>.
>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/9A0A1E79-B31C-40B0-9F5A-1AB41464EAF0%40gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/9A0A1E79-B31C-40B0-9F5A-1AB41464EAF0%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
>>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>> 
>>>> From: "Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion
>>>> Date: March 2, 2022 at 5:05:56 PM CST
>>>> To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>>
>>>> Cc: "Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>, "rowleyclan at earthlink.net <mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>" <rowleyclan at earthlink.net <mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>>, "<wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>" <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>
>>>> 
>>>> Naive, and worse, in that the statement overlooks(?) and ignores the reason for this crisis in the first place. The US-NATO-Ukraine refusal to consider what Putin/Russia was reasonably demanding for strategic stability, its security. You don?t ask why there was such denial. And now we have a state of turmoil looking, as was the initial intention, to demean and demonize Russia.  Who will profit for this?
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 2, 2022, at 11:54 AM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Just to be clear, CODEPINK's principal positions are: Russian troops out of Ukraine, Ceasefire now, Negotiations without preconditions,
>>>>> No NATO Expansion, Neutrality for Ukraine, No weapons to Ukraine, only humanitarian support; No blanket sanctions that will hurt
>>>>> the Russian people as opposed to the oligarchs.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I disagree with those who condemn peace groups for opposing the war in Ukraine, the full-scale Russian invasion and high-alert nuclear
>>>>> status. Putin's military aggression, not the peace movement's objection to war as a problem-solver, is what will empower NATO and the most
>>>>> warmongering elements of our government. One can be anti-imperialist without being pro-war.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 7:04 AM rowleyclan at earthlink.net <mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net> <rowleyclan at earthlink.net <mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>>>>> Exactly right, Morton! It's amazing how so much US-NATO imperialist history of illegal wars of aggression and inciting of violent regime changes in dozens of foreign countries (all to achieve their well-publicized goal since WWII of achieving unipolar, full spectrum dominance) is so quickly and fully erased in the minds of the various "peace" groups here, making their response to the situation in Ukraine so one-sided.  This morphing of liberal "peace" groups and lessening of internal resistance to US-NATO's bloody trajectory (since the costs of war upon Americans were made nearly invisible after Vietnam <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://consortiumnews.com/2018/02/04/recipe-concocted-for-perpetual-war-is-a-bitter-one/__;!!DZ3fjg!rqGCLR3hEZ8fxEXrec0z3FsREAPmaDf6bYSm2a5TPSU2awY4CY0yJ-zE7_xkvvxHhw$>) already became more obvious with Obama-Hillary's continuation of post 9-11 wars and bombing of Libya and Syria.   
>>>>> 
>>>>> But living in this imperial, exceptionalist and so effectively propagandized U.S.-NATO bubble makes it understandably difficult for most, even in the "peace movement" to remain fully empathetic with those foreigners experiencing the actual costs of war and objective/critical-thinking in their assessment of proportional blame for the current bloodshed.  Unfortunately we see most "peace" groups here quite seduced by Samantha Power type "humanitarian imperialism," subsequently engaging more to protest the "enemy" Russia than to protest their own government's greater responsibility.  Obviously it takes two to tango so it's true both sides bear some (although not equal) responsibility in launching this war.  But the task for Americans should be to protest our own government's actions instead of demonizing/protesting Russia and siding, even somewhat siding, with U.S.-NATO's actions and continued war propaganda.  
>>>>> 
>>>>>   So while it IS fine and good for the Russian people to protest their own government's actions (and same for Ukrainians to protest their own government), it should be the same for Americans and Europeans, to protest their own governments' involvement.  Americans who protest (the "enemy") Russia are just IMHO aiding and abetting U.S.-NATO's continued militarism and war plans, which almost always entail "leading from behind" by arming proxy forces, in this case using/exploiting poor Ukrainians.  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Coleen Rowley   
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> "Power is always dangerous. Power attracts the worst and corrupts the best." --Edward Abbey
>>>>>  
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>
>>>>> Sent: Mar 1, 2022 11:20 PM
>>>>> To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>>
>>>>> Cc: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>, <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>> <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> Marcy, 
>>>>>  I consider the current conflict as a continuation of US determination to remain a unipolar hegemon, and Russia (and China, Cuba, Venezuela,?) is one of the few powerful nations to oppose it.  Russia is therefore considered to be an enemy of the US, and thus all is acceptable to undermine it. A similar logic applies for China. NATO is an instrument of this US policy, and Ukraine is a useful agent to further US aims.
>>>>>  
>>>>> We all know that the US and NATO have violated international rules against aggressive wars multiple times,  aggressions against Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan, not to mention Yugoslavia, Syria and Palestine. Now that Russia has struck back, we have this chorus of condemnation.  
>>>>>  
>>>>> What is really at stake is whether the US can continue its imperial campaigns unhindered. Russia presents a major hindrance.
>>>>>  
>>>>> Yes, it is horrible that civilians are caught in the middle of this struggle, but the fundmental reasons for the struggle are geopolitical.  To have a stable world politically, the vital security  interests of both sides must be respected. This has not been done, despite claims that there always exist nonviolent and  just solutions. In some sense, as Putin has claimed,  the attack on Ukraine is defensive. He has come to understand  the US determination to subdue Russia, and he is trying to negate it,  to deal with it.  ?He" represents Russian interests. He may fail, but I sympathize with his quandary, just as I sympathize with those trapped in the middle of the conflict. Most people want peace, but not all, including the US administration and NATO which is delighted to have Ukrainians advance its ends. 
>>>>>  
>>>>>  I?m outraged by US policies.  The resistance by Russia to US/NATO depredations are mostly welcome, and I regret what many on the left are doing by their harsh condemnations of Russia. The ubiquity of these condemnations by peace groups serves to strengthen and mitigate the imperial acts of the US/NATO complex. This, despite supposedly balanced criticisms of US/NATO policies by some of these groups.
>>>>>  
>>>>> ?mkb
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Feb 28, 2022, at 7:30 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Morton, while there's no denying that NATO and the US have played a detrimental role in securing world peace & in encircling Russia and
>>>>> going back on promises, etc., the bottom line is none of that excuses the Russian invasion of Ukraine---war, as we say, is not the answer. As for
>>>>> the mention of Chernoybl, it must not be lost on any of us that there are 15 nuclear reactors in Ukraine, all of which pose a risk in normal times,
>>>>> let alone during a war when weapons, even if not intended, can hit a reactor to contaminate land and water. Putin's decision to issue veiled threats
>>>>> to launch nuclear weapons against NATO members and place his nuclear arsenal on high alert is way out of bounds and underscores the importance
>>>>> of nuclear abolition. Marcy
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 3:34 PM Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com <mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> What is wrong with this statement is that it strongly condemns Russia, but only criticizes US/NATO, and too late in the statement at that.  
>>>>>  
>>>>>  NATO/US/Ukraine refused to consider the so-called red lines that Russia warned should not be crossed. It disregards the Russian point of view. It does not consider what the US would do if analogous threats were evident at US borders.  Russia asserted in writing what it considered necessary conditions for its security, conditions ignored by NATO/US. Russia could back off no further. On a related issue Ukraine/US/NATO talked about the Minsk accords but in fact ignored those accords.   Negotiations went nowhere. 
>>>>>  
>>>>> So who is reponsible for what has now occurred? You have succumbed to a bandwagon of condemnation. 
>>>>>  
>>>>> Moreover, alarmist and ignorant comments about the Chernobyl reactor are ill considered; Russian forces have been very much aware that its safety should be ensured.  On the other hand, the nuclear issue should be front and center on everybody?s mind. 
>>>>>  
>>>>> As for the rest, you make cogent points. But on the whole the statement is disappointing.   Meanwhile, more weaponry, troops are flooding into the region and sanctions applied so as to  weaken Russia, actions consistent with prior statements on various occasions that Russia (and China) are US  enemies.  
>>>>>  
>>>>> Very dangerous. 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Feb 28, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com <mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo__;!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR5eKNuD9g$>
>>>>>  
>>>>> CODEPINK Says Stop the War in Ukraine: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion
>>>>>  
>>>>> CODEPINK strongly condemns Russia?s invasion of Ukraine, where over 350,000 civilians have fled the country in fear of explosive weapons and missile attacks, while remaining residents from eastern to western Ukraine seek refuge in underground subways and bomb shelters. As an international peace organization, we call for an immediate ceasefire, negotiations without preconditions, withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine, an end to NATO expansion and a return to the negotiating table to address the security interests of all stakeholders. We stand in solidarity with the Ukrainian people under vicious attack and with the thousands of courageous Russian anti-war activists risking arrest and imprisonment to protest in the streets of Moscow and St. Petersburg. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> There is no military solution to the conflict over Ukraine, a country caught in the crossfire between the United States and Russia, the world?s two most heavily armed nuclear nations. While we denounce Putin?s reckless veiled threat to launch nuclear weapons against NATO countries, we also recognize the United States government is culpable in the proliferation and deployment of nuclear weapons, and must reverse course on its decision to pursue nuclear rearmament and instead advance verifiable agreements for global nuclear disarmament. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> In condemning Putin?s invasion of a sovereign country, the shelling of a Ukrainian hospital, the tanks closing in on Kyiv, we understand the U.S. has played a major role in exacerbating this conflict, facilitating a 2014 coup to overthrow the democratically elected leader of Ukraine and breaking promises not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, where offensive missiles in Romania and Poland could reach Russia in minutes.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Though some will argue NATO is a defensive alliance of 30 countries, we view NATO as a threat to world peace with its military encirclement of Russia and support for U.S. military aggression in Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya, where an estimated million died under a rain of bombs and millions more were displaced. NATO?s aggressive stance on China, another nuclear-armed nation, also threatens world peace and efforts to unite in the face of existential climate catastrophe. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> In advance of the NATO summit in June, CODEPINK calls for an international security agreement to protect the interests of all Europeans to remain free from war and occupation. Such an agreement should have been forged after the fall of the Soviet Union and dissolution of the Warsaw Pact; instead the U.S. and NATO sought further militarization in a continuance of the Cold War that spawned multiple hot wars, from Korea to Vietnam.
>>>>> 
>>>>> To prevent further fighting in Ukraine, to stop the loss of life, bloodshed and grave environmental degradation from the bombing of munitions plants, let us return to the 2015 Minsk II agreement that established a blueprint for peace and an end to the civil war rocking eastern Ukraine. Ukraine should be a neutral country; its incorporation into NATO should be off the table as a starting point for diplomacy.
>>>>> 
>>>>> During this perilous time, when further military escalation could trigger a Chernobyl radioactive meltdown or push us to the brink of nuclear annihilation, we urge President Biden and Congress to stop the flow of weapons to Ukraine, offer humanitarian assistance and safe refuge instead, renew lapsed arms control treaties (Anti-Ballistic Missile, Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces, Open Skies) the U.S. abandoned with Russia, and reject the imposition of massive sanctions that will harm the Russian people who, like us, want peace and security. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Blanket sanctions on the entire Russian economy could spread economic and environmental hardship to Europe and potentially the global community with energy price hikes that may reduce energy consumption in the short term but prompt more oil drilling and lethal burning of fossil fuels in the long term.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In solidarity with anti-war protesters in Russia and across Europe, we call on the world?s peace-loving people, including conscripted front-line soldiers, to join us in a massive unified response to say: 
>>>>> 
>>>>> No to War in Ukraine; Yes to Negotiations and Peace.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace. 
>>>>>  
>>>>> Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
>>>>> --- 
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "WBW discussion" group.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com>.
>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/CAHKBExqpfrW7XDAsAqM0CWmUF0FR1Pz595NTDqGycZmhCv751w%40mail.gmail.com <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/CAHKBExqpfrW7XDAsAqM0CWmUF0FR1Pz595NTDqGycZmhCv751w*40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer__;JQ!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR4iX9Doxg$>.
>>>>>  
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace. 
>>>>>  
>>>>> Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
>>>>> --- 
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "WBW discussion" group.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com <mailto:wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com>.
>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/9A0A1E79-B31C-40B0-9F5A-1AB41464EAF0%40gmail.com <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/9A0A1E79-B31C-40B0-9F5A-1AB41464EAF0*40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer__;JQ!!DZ3fjg!rqGCLR3hEZ8fxEXrec0z3FsREAPmaDf6bYSm2a5TPSU2awY4CY0yJ-zE7_zs7YLIWg$>.
>>>>>  
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss <https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss>
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From fboyle at illinois.edu  Fri Mar  4 18:30:12 2022
From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A)
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 18:30:12 +0000
Subject: [Peace-discuss] An exchange
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Thank you Karen. Fab.

Francis A. Boyle
Law Building
504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
Champaign IL 61820 USA
Phone: 217-333-7954
Fax: 217-244-1478
(personal comments only)


From: karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, March 4, 2022 12:17 PM
To: naiman.uiuc at gmail.com
Cc: Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu>; Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>; Ricky Baldwin <baldwinricky at gmail.com>; Levy, Stuart A <salevy at illinois.edu>
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] An exchange

Please read the second, third and fourth paragraphs below, these are the solutions. Solutions that are critical to ending the war, and if implemented when some of us were suggesting they be implemented, there might not be a war. Waiting until it begins and then just bashing Putin, blaming  Russia, isn?t going to stop the war. As Americans we need to take responsibility for that which we are responsible and stop blaming others.
From International Prof. Francis Boyle:
"Stop the war.
This war in Ukraine must be immediately terminated before it expands and sucks in the European NATO members and the United States.
Toward that end, President Joe Biden must publicly announce that NATO expansion is over for good and that Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova will not be joining NATO as member states.
Biden must also call for an international peace conference for the creation of a treaty that will establish the permanent neutrality of Ukraine guaranteed by the United Nations Security Council under Chapter 7 of the U.N. charter.
Then negotiations can take place between the United States and Russia over the de-nuclearization of Europe, including the removal of U.S. tactical nuclear weapons from NATO states that are there in violation of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and a restoration of the Intermediate Nuclear Forces Treaty that was so foolishly and recklessly terminated by the Trump administration.
Then a new round of the Conventional Forces in Europe Treaty negotiations should be conducted in order to substantially lessen the tensions on land, sea and air between Russia and the U.S./NATO states, including over the emplacement of alleged U.S. anti-ballistic missile sites in Europe that threaten Russia.
Make no mistake about it: The origins of World War I and World War II hover like twin Swords of Damocles over the heads of all humanity.
FRANCIS BOYLE








On Mar 4, 2022, at 8:41 AM, Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com<mailto:naiman.uiuc at gmail.com>> wrote:

At a certain point, you have to decide whether you want to be part of a consistent and principled opposition to the Empire or not. If you're defending Putin now, you've made your decision.



On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:35 PM karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com<mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com>> wrote:
Mort, sadly we?ve drawn out the wrath of Bob Naiman who now labels us "Putin advocates."

What?s interesting is this is the same form of vilification anti-war activists received during the Vietnam war. We were "anti-American for criticizing our government.? We were told to get a haircut and/or a job.

I?ve heard the anti-war activists of the ANSWER coalition were treated in the same manner, spit on, degraded for their "anti-Americanism," during the start of the Iraq war.

Jews protesting the treatment of Palestinians by Israel, were and are still labeled self hating Jews, if they're Jewish they can?t be vilified as anti-semitic, so self hating Jew is the usual slur. According to Noam Chomsky this slur against those questioning, goes back a very long way.

Those opposing the US covert military interventions bombing and killing in Syria are referred to as ?Assadists." for supporting the Assad government.?

Those opposing the US bombing and destruction of Yemen, by our proxy?s no problem, because it?s the Saudi?s doing the dirty work, never mind they couldn?t do it without US weapons, training and logistics. So, it?s okay to keep up the concern for peace for Yemen, by contacting our Democrat Representatives to stop it. Given it?s been seven years now with no stopping and a lot of starvation, I would think a different tactic might be in order. But never mind, it should all be over soon, with the nation if not totally destroyed, in complete chaos, devastation and death. We can all cry for Yemen then.

So now, those of us calling attention over the past few months, weeks or eight years since 2014, to the US provocations of Russia, because they fear nuclear war with Nato encroaching closer to their borders every day, we?re referred to as "Putin advocates.?

It?s unfortunate no one was paying attention to us, and now we have war, many are crying and urging we pray for the Ukrainian people. As anti-war activists I think we know, if we know our history, prayer hasn?t been very successful at saving people, lest we forget we have the Holocaust to remind us.

What?s most interesting is in the past it was right wingers doing the name calling as they are the loyal patriots supporting, "my country right or wrong, blame the other guy." Now it?s the so-called liberal left.


On Mar 3, 2022, at 6:52 PM, Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com<mailto:naiman.uiuc at gmail.com>> wrote:


A good question for U.S. peace advocates to ask themselves right now is:

"Am I standing next to Putin's bombing of civilians in Ukraine right now?"

If you're standing next to Putin's bombing of civilians in Ukraine right now, why call yourself a peace advocate?

Why not just call yourself a Putin advocate?

If the shoe fits, wear it.

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:08 AM karen aram via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
Mort

I couldn?t agree with you more. This has been my point, and you have said it so well. I?m pleased to see Colleen Rowley's statement supporting your views as well. It?s interesting  in that she a former CIA legal expert sounds very much like Noam Chomsky, on this very topic in warning what may come if the USG doesn?t stop expanding Nato.

There are many of us taking this position, but unfortunately most people and some of the peace groups are focusing too much on simply ?anti-war, stop the fighting.? Which is not going to solve the problem, when focusing on other nations, governments than their own. It provides a veneer of that which is not a simple, "russia is bad," that the USG and our corporate owned media promotes.

Thank you


On Mar 2, 2022, at 10:50 PM, Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu<mailto:brussel at illinois.edu>> wrote:

You might be interested. I thought I would wade into this blast at Russia by these peace groups. My initial remarks were to Marcy at CODEPINK, a group I?ve usually supported.

Mort


Begin forwarded message:

From: "Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com<mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion
Date: March 2, 2022 at 5:05:56 PM CST
To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com<mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>>
Cc: "Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com<mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>, "rowleyclan at earthlink.net<mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>" <rowleyclan at earthlink.net<mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>>, "<wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com<mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>" <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com<mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>

Naive, and worse, in that the statement overlooks(?) and ignores the reason for this crisis in the first place. The US-NATO-Ukraine refusal to consider what Putin/Russia was reasonably demanding for strategic stability, its security. You don?t ask why there was such denial. And now we have a state of turmoil looking, as was the initial intention, to demean and demonize Russia.  Who will profit for this?


On Mar 2, 2022, at 11:54 AM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com<mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:

Just to be clear, CODEPINK's principal positions are: Russian troops out of Ukraine, Ceasefire now, Negotiations without preconditions,
No NATO Expansion, Neutrality for Ukraine, No weapons to Ukraine, only humanitarian support; No blanket sanctions that will hurt
the Russian people as opposed to the oligarchs.

I disagree with those who condemn peace groups for opposing the war in Ukraine, the full-scale Russian invasion and high-alert nuclear
status. Putin's military aggression, not the peace movement's objection to war as a problem-solver, is what will empower NATO and the most
warmongering elements of our government. One can be anti-imperialist without being pro-war.



On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 7:04 AM rowleyclan at earthlink.net<mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net> <rowleyclan at earthlink.net<mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>> wrote:
Exactly right, Morton! It's amazing how so much US-NATO imperialist history of illegal wars of aggression and inciting of violent regime changes in dozens of foreign countries (all to achieve their well-publicized goal since WWII of achieving unipolar, full spectrum dominance) is so quickly and fully erased in the minds of the various "peace" groups here, making their response to the situation in Ukraine so one-sided.  This morphing of liberal "peace" groups and lessening of internal resistance to US-NATO's bloody trajectory (since the costs of war upon Americans were made nearly invisible after Vietnam<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/consortiumnews.com/2018/02/04/recipe-concocted-for-perpetual-war-is-a-bitter-one/__;!!DZ3fjg!vx7L-y_jDk6u1PVjhWHnYe0-jHXO2IryaMpdLIpYyYQ8asDgZuocpA2QjUlutAZzpA$>) already became more obvious with Obama-Hillary's continuation of post 9-11 wars and bombing of Libya and Syria.

But living in this imperial, exceptionalist and so effectively propagandized U.S.-NATO bubble makes it understandably difficult for most, even in the "peace movement" to remain fully empathetic with those foreigners experiencing the actual costs of war and objective/critical-thinking in their assessment of proportional blame for the current bloodshed.  Unfortunately we see most "peace" groups here quite seduced by Samantha Power type "humanitarian imperialism," subsequently engaging more to protest the "enemy" Russia than to protest their own government's greater responsibility.  Obviously it takes two to tango so it's true both sides bear some (although not equal) responsibility in launching this war.  But the task for Americans should be to protest our own government's actions instead of demonizing/protesting Russia and siding, even somewhat siding, with U.S.-NATO's actions and continued war propaganda.

  So while it IS fine and good for the Russian people to protest their own government's actions (and same for Ukrainians to protest their own government), it should be the same for Americans and Europeans, to protest their own governments' involvement.  Americans who protest (the "enemy") Russia are just IMHO aiding and abetting U.S.-NATO's continued militarism and war plans, which almost always entail "leading from behind" by arming proxy forces, in this case using/exploiting poor Ukrainians.

Coleen Rowley


"Power is always dangerous. Power attracts the worst and corrupts the best." --Edward Abbey

-----Original Message-----
From: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com<mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>
Sent: Mar 1, 2022 11:20 PM
To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com<mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>>
Cc: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com<mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>, <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com<mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>> <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com<mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>
Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion

Marcy,
 I consider the current conflict as a continuation of US determination to remain a unipolar hegemon, and Russia (and China, Cuba, Venezuela,?) is one of the few powerful nations to oppose it.  Russia is therefore considered to be an enemy of the US, and thus all is acceptable to undermine it. A similar logic applies for China. NATO is an instrument of this US policy, and Ukraine is a useful agent to further US aims.

We all know that the US and NATO have violated international rules against aggressive wars multiple times,  aggressions against Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan, not to mention Yugoslavia, Syria and Palestine. Now that Russia has struck back, we have this chorus of condemnation.

What is really at stake is whether the US can continue its imperial campaigns unhindered. Russia presents a major hindrance.

Yes, it is horrible that civilians are caught in the middle of this struggle, but the fundmental reasons for the struggle are geopolitical.  To have a stable world politically, the vital security  interests of both sides must be respected. This has not been done, despite claims that there always exist nonviolent and  just solutions. In some sense, as Putin has claimed,  the attack on Ukraine is defensive. He has come to understand  the US determination to subdue Russia, and he is trying to negate it,  to deal with it.  ?He" represents Russian interests. He may fail, but I sympathize with his quandary, just as I sympathize with those trapped in the middle of the conflict. Most people want peace, but not all, including the US administration and NATO which is delighted to have Ukrainians advance its ends.

 I?m outraged by US policies.  The resistance by Russia to US/NATO depredations are mostly welcome, and I regret what many on the left are doing by their harsh condemnations of Russia. The ubiquity of these condemnations by peace groups serves to strengthen and mitigate the imperial acts of the US/NATO complex. This, despite supposedly balanced criticisms of US/NATO policies by some of these groups.

?mkb

On Feb 28, 2022, at 7:30 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com<mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:
Morton, while there's no denying that NATO and the US have played a detrimental role in securing world peace & in encircling Russia and
going back on promises, etc., the bottom line is none of that excuses the Russian invasion of Ukraine---war, as we say, is not the answer. As for
the mention of Chernoybl, it must not be lost on any of us that there are 15 nuclear reactors in Ukraine, all of which pose a risk in normal times,
let alone during a war when weapons, even if not intended, can hit a reactor to contaminate land and water. Putin's decision to issue veiled threats
to launch nuclear weapons against NATO members and place his nuclear arsenal on high alert is way out of bounds and underscores the importance
of nuclear abolition. Marcy

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 3:34 PM Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com<mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>> wrote:
What is wrong with this statement is that it strongly condemns Russia, but only criticizes US/NATO, and too late in the statement at that.

 NATO/US/Ukraine refused to consider the so-called red lines that Russia warned should not be crossed. It disregards the Russian point of view. It does not consider what the US would do if analogous threats were evident at US borders.  Russia asserted in writing what it considered necessary conditions for its security, conditions ignored by NATO/US. Russia could back off no further. On a related issue Ukraine/US/NATO talked about the Minsk accords but in fact ignored those accords.   Negotiations went nowhere.

So who is reponsible for what has now occurred? You have succumbed to a bandwagon of condemnation.

Moreover, alarmist and ignorant comments about the Chernobyl reactor are ill considered; Russian forces have been very much aware that its safety should be ensured.  On the other hand, the nuclear issue should be front and center on everybody?s mind.

As for the rest, you make cogent points. But on the whole the statement is disappointing.   Meanwhile, more weaponry, troops are flooding into the region and sanctions applied so as to  weaken Russia, actions consistent with prior statements on various occasions that Russia (and China) are US  enemies.

Very dangerous.



On Feb 28, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com<mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:

https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo__;!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR5eKNuD9g$>

CODEPINK Says Stop the War in Ukraine: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion

CODEPINK strongly condemns Russia?s invasion of Ukraine, where over 350,000 civilians have fled the country in fear of explosive weapons and missile attacks, while remaining residents from eastern to western Ukraine seek refuge in underground subways and bomb shelters. As an international peace organization, we call for an immediate ceasefire, negotiations without preconditions, withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine, an end to NATO expansion and a return to the negotiating table to address the security interests of all stakeholders. We stand in solidarity with the Ukrainian people under vicious attack and with the thousands of courageous Russian anti-war activists risking arrest and imprisonment to protest in the streets of Moscow and St. Petersburg.
There is no military solution to the conflict over Ukraine, a country caught in the crossfire between the United States and Russia, the world?s two most heavily armed nuclear nations. While we denounce Putin?s reckless veiled threat to launch nuclear weapons against NATO countries, we also recognize the United States government is culpable in the proliferation and deployment of nuclear weapons, and must reverse course on its decision to pursue nuclear rearmament and instead advance verifiable agreements for global nuclear disarmament.
In condemning Putin?s invasion of a sovereign country, the shelling of a Ukrainian hospital, the tanks closing in on Kyiv, we understand the U.S. has played a major role in exacerbating this conflict, facilitating a 2014 coup to overthrow the democratically elected leader of Ukraine and breaking promises not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, where offensive missiles in Romania and Poland could reach Russia in minutes.
Though some will argue NATO is a defensive alliance of 30 countries, we view NATO as a threat to world peace with its military encirclement of Russia and support for U.S. military aggression in Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya, where an estimated million died under a rain of bombs and millions more were displaced. NATO?s aggressive stance on China, another nuclear-armed nation, also threatens world peace and efforts to unite in the face of existential climate catastrophe.
In advance of the NATO summit in June, CODEPINK calls for an international security agreement to protect the interests of all Europeans to remain free from war and occupation. Such an agreement should have been forged after the fall of the Soviet Union and dissolution of the Warsaw Pact; instead the U.S. and NATO sought further militarization in a continuance of the Cold War that spawned multiple hot wars, from Korea to Vietnam.
To prevent further fighting in Ukraine, to stop the loss of life, bloodshed and grave environmental degradation from the bombing of munitions plants, let us return to the 2015 Minsk II agreement that established a blueprint for peace and an end to the civil war rocking eastern Ukraine. Ukraine should be a neutral country; its incorporation into NATO should be off the table as a starting point for diplomacy.
During this perilous time, when further military escalation could trigger a Chernobyl radioactive meltdown or push us to the brink of nuclear annihilation, we urge President Biden and Congress to stop the flow of weapons to Ukraine, offer humanitarian assistance and safe refuge instead, renew lapsed arms control treaties (Anti-Ballistic Missile, Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces, Open Skies) the U.S. abandoned with Russia, and reject the imposition of massive sanctions that will harm the Russian people who, like us, want peace and security.
Blanket sanctions on the entire Russian economy could spread economic and environmental hardship to Europe and potentially the global community with energy price hikes that may reduce energy consumption in the short term but prompt more oil drilling and lethal burning of fossil fuels in the long term.
In solidarity with anti-war protesters in Russia and across Europe, we call on the world?s peace-loving people, including conscripted front-line soldiers, to join us in a massive unified response to say:
No to War in Ukraine; Yes to Negotiations and Peace.

--
This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace.

Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
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Begin forwarded message:

From: "Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com<mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion
Date: March 2, 2022 at 5:05:56 PM CST
To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com<mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>>
Cc: "Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com<mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>, "rowleyclan at earthlink.net<mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>" <rowleyclan at earthlink.net<mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>>, "<wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com<mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>" <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com<mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>

Naive, and worse, in that the statement overlooks(?) and ignores the reason for this crisis in the first place. The US-NATO-Ukraine refusal to consider what Putin/Russia was reasonably demanding for strategic stability, its security. You don?t ask why there was such denial. And now we have a state of turmoil looking, as was the initial intention, to demean and demonize Russia.  Who will profit for this?


On Mar 2, 2022, at 11:54 AM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com<mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:

Just to be clear, CODEPINK's principal positions are: Russian troops out of Ukraine, Ceasefire now, Negotiations without preconditions,
No NATO Expansion, Neutrality for Ukraine, No weapons to Ukraine, only humanitarian support; No blanket sanctions that will hurt
the Russian people as opposed to the oligarchs.

I disagree with those who condemn peace groups for opposing the war in Ukraine, the full-scale Russian invasion and high-alert nuclear
status. Putin's military aggression, not the peace movement's objection to war as a problem-solver, is what will empower NATO and the most
warmongering elements of our government. One can be anti-imperialist without being pro-war.



On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 7:04 AM rowleyclan at earthlink.net<mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net> <rowleyclan at earthlink.net<mailto:rowleyclan at earthlink.net>> wrote:
Exactly right, Morton! It's amazing how so much US-NATO imperialist history of illegal wars of aggression and inciting of violent regime changes in dozens of foreign countries (all to achieve their well-publicized goal since WWII of achieving unipolar, full spectrum dominance) is so quickly and fully erased in the minds of the various "peace" groups here, making their response to the situation in Ukraine so one-sided.  This morphing of liberal "peace" groups and lessening of internal resistance to US-NATO's bloody trajectory (since the costs of war upon Americans were made nearly invisible after Vietnam<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/consortiumnews.com/2018/02/04/recipe-concocted-for-perpetual-war-is-a-bitter-one/__;!!DZ3fjg!rqGCLR3hEZ8fxEXrec0z3FsREAPmaDf6bYSm2a5TPSU2awY4CY0yJ-zE7_xkvvxHhw$>) already became more obvious with Obama-Hillary's continuation of post 9-11 wars and bombing of Libya and Syria.

But living in this imperial, exceptionalist and so effectively propagandized U.S.-NATO bubble makes it understandably difficult for most, even in the "peace movement" to remain fully empathetic with those foreigners experiencing the actual costs of war and objective/critical-thinking in their assessment of proportional blame for the current bloodshed.  Unfortunately we see most "peace" groups here quite seduced by Samantha Power type "humanitarian imperialism," subsequently engaging more to protest the "enemy" Russia than to protest their own government's greater responsibility.  Obviously it takes two to tango so it's true both sides bear some (although not equal) responsibility in launching this war.  But the task for Americans should be to protest our own government's actions instead of demonizing/protesting Russia and siding, even somewhat siding, with U.S.-NATO's actions and continued war propaganda.

  So while it IS fine and good for the Russian people to protest their own government's actions (and same for Ukrainians to protest their own government), it should be the same for Americans and Europeans, to protest their own governments' involvement.  Americans who protest (the "enemy") Russia are just IMHO aiding and abetting U.S.-NATO's continued militarism and war plans, which almost always entail "leading from behind" by arming proxy forces, in this case using/exploiting poor Ukrainians.

Coleen Rowley


"Power is always dangerous. Power attracts the worst and corrupts the best." --Edward Abbey

-----Original Message-----
From: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com<mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>
Sent: Mar 1, 2022 11:20 PM
To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com<mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>>
Cc: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com<mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>>, <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com<mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>> <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com<mailto:wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>>
Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion

Marcy,
 I consider the current conflict as a continuation of US determination to remain a unipolar hegemon, and Russia (and China, Cuba, Venezuela,?) is one of the few powerful nations to oppose it.  Russia is therefore considered to be an enemy of the US, and thus all is acceptable to undermine it. A similar logic applies for China. NATO is an instrument of this US policy, and Ukraine is a useful agent to further US aims.

We all know that the US and NATO have violated international rules against aggressive wars multiple times,  aggressions against Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan, not to mention Yugoslavia, Syria and Palestine. Now that Russia has struck back, we have this chorus of condemnation.

What is really at stake is whether the US can continue its imperial campaigns unhindered. Russia presents a major hindrance.

Yes, it is horrible that civilians are caught in the middle of this struggle, but the fundmental reasons for the struggle are geopolitical.  To have a stable world politically, the vital security  interests of both sides must be respected. This has not been done, despite claims that there always exist nonviolent and  just solutions. In some sense, as Putin has claimed,  the attack on Ukraine is defensive. He has come to understand  the US determination to subdue Russia, and he is trying to negate it,  to deal with it.  ?He" represents Russian interests. He may fail, but I sympathize with his quandary, just as I sympathize with those trapped in the middle of the conflict. Most people want peace, but not all, including the US administration and NATO which is delighted to have Ukrainians advance its ends.

 I?m outraged by US policies.  The resistance by Russia to US/NATO depredations are mostly welcome, and I regret what many on the left are doing by their harsh condemnations of Russia. The ubiquity of these condemnations by peace groups serves to strengthen and mitigate the imperial acts of the US/NATO complex. This, despite supposedly balanced criticisms of US/NATO policies by some of these groups.

?mkb

On Feb 28, 2022, at 7:30 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com<mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:
Morton, while there's no denying that NATO and the US have played a detrimental role in securing world peace & in encircling Russia and
going back on promises, etc., the bottom line is none of that excuses the Russian invasion of Ukraine---war, as we say, is not the answer. As for
the mention of Chernoybl, it must not be lost on any of us that there are 15 nuclear reactors in Ukraine, all of which pose a risk in normal times,
let alone during a war when weapons, even if not intended, can hit a reactor to contaminate land and water. Putin's decision to issue veiled threats
to launch nuclear weapons against NATO members and place his nuclear arsenal on high alert is way out of bounds and underscores the importance
of nuclear abolition. Marcy

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 3:34 PM Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com<mailto:mkb0029 at gmail.com>> wrote:
What is wrong with this statement is that it strongly condemns Russia, but only criticizes US/NATO, and too late in the statement at that.

 NATO/US/Ukraine refused to consider the so-called red lines that Russia warned should not be crossed. It disregards the Russian point of view. It does not consider what the US would do if analogous threats were evident at US borders.  Russia asserted in writing what it considered necessary conditions for its security, conditions ignored by NATO/US. Russia could back off no further. On a related issue Ukraine/US/NATO talked about the Minsk accords but in fact ignored those accords.   Negotiations went nowhere.

So who is reponsible for what has now occurred? You have succumbed to a bandwagon of condemnation.

Moreover, alarmist and ignorant comments about the Chernobyl reactor are ill considered; Russian forces have been very much aware that its safety should be ensured.  On the other hand, the nuclear issue should be front and center on everybody?s mind.

As for the rest, you make cogent points. But on the whole the statement is disappointing.   Meanwhile, more weaponry, troops are flooding into the region and sanctions applied so as to  weaken Russia, actions consistent with prior statements on various occasions that Russia (and China) are US  enemies.

Very dangerous.



On Feb 28, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com<mailto:winogradteach at gmail.com>> wrote:

https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo__;!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR5eKNuD9g$>

CODEPINK Says Stop the War in Ukraine: Russian Troops Out, No NATO Expansion

CODEPINK strongly condemns Russia?s invasion of Ukraine, where over 350,000 civilians have fled the country in fear of explosive weapons and missile attacks, while remaining residents from eastern to western Ukraine seek refuge in underground subways and bomb shelters. As an international peace organization, we call for an immediate ceasefire, negotiations without preconditions, withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine, an end to NATO expansion and a return to the negotiating table to address the security interests of all stakeholders. We stand in solidarity with the Ukrainian people under vicious attack and with the thousands of courageous Russian anti-war activists risking arrest and imprisonment to protest in the streets of Moscow and St. Petersburg.
There is no military solution to the conflict over Ukraine, a country caught in the crossfire between the United States and Russia, the world?s two most heavily armed nuclear nations. While we denounce Putin?s reckless veiled threat to launch nuclear weapons against NATO countries, we also recognize the United States government is culpable in the proliferation and deployment of nuclear weapons, and must reverse course on its decision to pursue nuclear rearmament and instead advance verifiable agreements for global nuclear disarmament.
In condemning Putin?s invasion of a sovereign country, the shelling of a Ukrainian hospital, the tanks closing in on Kyiv, we understand the U.S. has played a major role in exacerbating this conflict, facilitating a 2014 coup to overthrow the democratically elected leader of Ukraine and breaking promises not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, where offensive missiles in Romania and Poland could reach Russia in minutes.
Though some will argue NATO is a defensive alliance of 30 countries, we view NATO as a threat to world peace with its military encirclement of Russia and support for U.S. military aggression in Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya, where an estimated million died under a rain of bombs and millions more were displaced. NATO?s aggressive stance on China, another nuclear-armed nation, also threatens world peace and efforts to unite in the face of existential climate catastrophe.
In advance of the NATO summit in June, CODEPINK calls for an international security agreement to protect the interests of all Europeans to remain free from war and occupation. Such an agreement should have been forged after the fall of the Soviet Union and dissolution of the Warsaw Pact; instead the U.S. and NATO sought further militarization in a continuance of the Cold War that spawned multiple hot wars, from Korea to Vietnam.
To prevent further fighting in Ukraine, to stop the loss of life, bloodshed and grave environmental degradation from the bombing of munitions plants, let us return to the 2015 Minsk II agreement that established a blueprint for peace and an end to the civil war rocking eastern Ukraine. Ukraine should be a neutral country; its incorporation into NATO should be off the table as a starting point for diplomacy.
During this perilous time, when further military escalation could trigger a Chernobyl radioactive meltdown or push us to the brink of nuclear annihilation, we urge President Biden and Congress to stop the flow of weapons to Ukraine, offer humanitarian assistance and safe refuge instead, renew lapsed arms control treaties (Anti-Ballistic Missile, Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces, Open Skies) the U.S. abandoned with Russia, and reject the imposition of massive sanctions that will harm the Russian people who, like us, want peace and security.
Blanket sanctions on the entire Russian economy could spread economic and environmental hardship to Europe and potentially the global community with energy price hikes that may reduce energy consumption in the short term but prompt more oil drilling and lethal burning of fossil fuels in the long term.
In solidarity with anti-war protesters in Russia and across Europe, we call on the world?s peace-loving people, including conscripted front-line soldiers, to join us in a massive unified response to say:
No to War in Ukraine; Yes to Negotiations and Peace.

--
This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace.

Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "WBW discussion" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com<mailto:wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com>.
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From mkb0029 at gmail.com  Sat Mar  5 03:15:54 2022
From: mkb0029 at gmail.com (Morton K. Brussel)
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 21:15:54 -0600
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Citizen Diplomacy Works and Is Needed Now
In-Reply-To: <62222e59738ab_c7003f8c92af466057436@ip-10-0-0-98.mail>
References: <62222e59738ab_c7003f8c92af466057436@ip-10-0-0-98.mail>
Message-ID: <6A50C5F6-9875-41D3-836A-66698211AE2F@icloud.com>

I don?t know where to optimally insert this recommendation, but an absolutely essential expression of ideas and information abot the Ukraine-Russian-NATO situation is to be found at:

https://consortiumnews.com/2022/03/04/watch-cn-live-ukraine-update/ from Joe Lauria at consortium news:

> https://consortiumnews.com/2022/03/04/watch-cn-live-ukraine-update/

Scott Ritter and ? Svoboda, American resident in Moscow, say what they think and know. It is enlightening, and depressing. Long but gripping.
> 
> 
> About four years ago, I took part in a trip to Russia from the United States, as part of a group organized by Sharon Tennison. She had facilitated a huge number of trips and exchanges decades ago, bringing Russians to the U.S. and people from the U.S. to Russia, an effort that had influenced international relations for the better, as described in her book The Power of Impossible Ideas. Sharon had relaunched the project due to the escalating tensions.
> 
> I met Russians from a variety of backgrounds, some of whom now protest Russia's warmaking and some of whom cheer for it. Sharon, who has personally known Vladimir Putin, as well as many other high-profile Russians, opposes Russia's warmaking, without losing sight of the missteps -- including by the United States and NATO -- that predictably (and it was predicted) got us to this point.
> 
> I don't see exactly eye-to-eye with Sharon (or perhaps anyone else) on the current war, but on one thing I agree with many people: talking helps. Knowing each other helps. Storming out of meetings, evicting diplomats, generalizing about whole populations, and accusing others of being incapable of rational discourse does not help. Talking helps tremendously. Just how much might surprise almost everyone.
> 
> In April 2022, World BEYOND War will be holding a weekly discussion each of four weeks of The Power of Impossible Ideas: Ordinary Citizens' Extraordinary Efforts to Avert International Crises with the author Sharon Tennison as part of a small group WBW book club limited to 18 participants. We'll mail you the book or, if you prefer, email you the PDF. We'll let you know which parts of the book will be discussed each week along with the Zoom details to access the discussions.
> 
> Learn more and register here <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/ss/c/P8Elou2Rvc0qoMPEUZrMXcOpy_XqN4R2ZGjoK-5zZnkKAD_CcDnlZeJHnDkoof6WJFrKSDSGUdPoZvJZGR2_byIFVB1n6GqYrZiaa2wGfhq9I7aMcjkJuWEuDG6zi06LYfgAWV1VTzHpNWZM-ozXP-TcGptn9FuIsxSdAUCIWnR5mEyk5uWqd55uChEXtU_QvAE6QpSR1l1edAMZjbatEDBQXqzYMqNUow4kXSCfXJsPiUpiL6nIqPu0GTJ3YjmnBsw_irulRZgM7ouT_S1_0-jOHkMVcKf-pqW-uaz9z4UO7NvmPRCYp8EcWlslgIpuRkrchmOmabvRHDZX5QU3LNAh-Ur8PUZ7QMhvMf4l0vJuMyQG7o215FdiYoKszbKPWouLog4EB7YtoVDcCn4rPOGp51VCW8ciwEQkSLhOT2GNouXfj28lfjlEOLdxyeHG9-4D5PqA8axeHKNbHR3vjJROz-mGZzhTPg0voelAtZ4YbiWA5PSiqPyWX26I-Wqx/3k2/a-ol6SOATsat1RidnrEMNg/h0/p5b9-qnsJSRHUhwIKISLtwf5UdLK4XhbHdd5spJSjXw>.
> 
>  <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/ss/c/P8Elou2Rvc0qoMPEUZrMXcOpy_XqN4R2ZGjoK-5zZnkKAD_CcDnlZeJHnDkoof6WJFrKSDSGUdPoZvJZGR2_byIFVB1n6GqYrZiaa2wGfhq9I7aMcjkJuWEuDG6zi06LYfgAWV1VTzHpNWZM-ozXP-TcGptn9FuIsxSdAUCIWnR5mEyk5uWqd55uChEXtU_QvAE6QpSR1l1edAMZjbatEDBQXqzYMqNUow4kXSCfXJsPiUpiL6nIqPu0GTJ3Yjmnq8BaxyTXMjEoYjlUV8p8rbWd09b-OnQN5Uia1e_olJF2WEuYEfXzOg13W_-CYvyuYV13to-Gdo1wzhPB1rFhltqnFgZI9WcHbbEg9fC5EcpEAcL_59e1g-RWG5pZcXMfg7SPzgp0-eyAzF122-81aUcMNAZar-avTt5lgMIxo8LdTFiCLo7LGMpXvNhVr2hJBQ-MwRo9snfXhaj-VDT0dAViSZe4qI_rBsauZ-SGbqyJ1iqsbgehDrEzxT2iEDKX/3k2/a-ol6SOATsat1RidnrEMNg/h1/6QK0rPtrt5W-fvcxRi7fRFSdM01FEjeJ8qSAsuMZhmM>
> When: For one hour on four Saturdays, April 2, 9, 16, and 23, 2022. The time is 12 p.m. Pacific, 3 p.m. Eastern, 8 p.m. in London, 9 p.m. Central European, 7 a.m. the next day in Auckland: 
> 
>  <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/ss/c/P8Elou2Rvc0qoMPEUZrMXcOpy_XqN4R2ZGjoK-5zZnkKAD_CcDnlZeJHnDkoof6WJFrKSDSGUdPoZvJZGR2_byIFVB1n6GqYrZiaa2wGfhq9I7aMcjkJuWEuDG6zi06LYfgAWV1VTzHpNWZM-ozXP-TcGptn9FuIsxSdAUCIWnR5mEyk5uWqd55uChEXtU_QvAE6QpSR1l1edAMZjbatEDBQXqzYMqNUow4kXSCfXJsPiUpiL6nIqPu0GTJ3Yjmn-rD4AQi2Twtjtj8CLVe_O_-SH5naJ-V0l7OVZLtPtuseeTXbL8luUEstk0_oLd9Amz9pyDQjYgi-c1Oqg4Ur0D5nQ6M4RYFAvlAwNKc1IENc5wMy8M9KezZIBJJQfqKpEyU6Jo-zb2u8rIkfuOWhhxhpcteBerVsju-zZTqaEPikIi4TljpeCpWBu-FzKTMEhsQT1nSXTQSxciSZHF1bLNztDRcj0LU85TNTpoy9B80IGObJSn5AXH-CzQLQCRBk/3k2/a-ol6SOATsat1RidnrEMNg/h2/7Zt9ubo9qq_9o74hjSCin9uu7PlM03YPgMA_1HhBEDk>
> Where: Zoom (details to be shared upon registration <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/ss/c/P8Elou2Rvc0qoMPEUZrMXcOpy_XqN4R2ZGjoK-5zZnkKAD_CcDnlZeJHnDkoof6WJFrKSDSGUdPoZvJZGR2_byIFVB1n6GqYrZiaa2wGfhq9I7aMcjkJuWEuDG6zi06LYfgAWV1VTzHpNWZM-ozXP-TcGptn9FuIsxSdAUCIWnR5mEyk5uWqd55uChEXtU_QvAE6QpSR1l1edAMZjbatEDBQXqzYMqNUow4kXSCfXJsPiUpiL6nIqPu0GTJ3YjmnEAonIYIV2gigfv8kZrib_qi55GCl1CWiccRFSdcWVSnB760iLT2BdMcEDCS5smcQpkbYtJPPSOb5o2qcQUvk5z7U7ZhQJaj9W8ku59X5vqKg5BEq1V5cnhSOgng5To1WAHG30RDfQSsXi36S6WDoWIeeym26wsEkgL_IkRdw1cH21Ll9AK8qC1MAg3JjO5ulr7yHRddDR6JCch7LDMVaIMLm-PUx8v7X5C_u3fLQznAOiakjZVOY9n7aptLDwSqF/3k2/a-ol6SOATsat1RidnrEMNg/h3/keaZxwyAG537sphnG8Fb1CyHrU_NDtQ_1RW56YdqtxI>)
> 
> This is a small group series with limited space of up to 18 people. Sign up to reserve your spot and allow for enough time to receive the book <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/ss/c/P8Elou2Rvc0qoMPEUZrMXcOpy_XqN4R2ZGjoK-5zZnkKAD_CcDnlZeJHnDkoof6WJFrKSDSGUdPoZvJZGR2_byIFVB1n6GqYrZiaa2wGfhq9I7aMcjkJuWEuDG6zi06LYfgAWV1VTzHpNWZM-ozXP-TcGptn9FuIsxSdAUCIWnR5mEyk5uWqd55uChEXtU_QvAE6QpSR1l1edAMZjbatEDBQXqzYMqNUow4kXSCfXJsPiUpiL6nIqPu0GTJ3Yjmnp92sXX_pWdWNdBTlQkqv1n4KNbZ4OZBi8WGFpZuvYHPhVFNBlgtzXcdAXy0eBZ1UidonzdRlIFtni3l-sB8ILW-1aIS6RshypBROAKsIBJNFmFGCmibWubeH8u-YamOS_dOn6ZSRfgGjE7xuZEYSnjn7H0SFbbZSyj61hoUO-JdizeOMQFXpd6Ltgs_c7Y51PHyfCd6RWOKyNnH0b0haE_k3F9x4I-ARLPidbVm_TL0QrPPi3cuRnK5cqFYvyMHC/3k2/a-ol6SOATsat1RidnrEMNg/h4/AOKeqsMTDusOL5W-h51Nn_RJmDLGmZj8zotjYinSoKw>. We look forward to reading and discussing this important book with you!
> 
> About the Book: Sharon Tennison and the Center for Citizen Initiatives proudly introduce the story of our three decades of work in Russia. Read the history of Russia?s last three turbulent decades as observed by naive American citizens who traveled there in 1983 searching for keys to end the nuclear arms race. They could have never guessed they would be central to many of the totally unexpected changes to come. Experience their skirmishes with the CIA, FBI, KGB and FSB -- being arrested and put in jail. 
> 
> Beyond all the drama exists the story of how they slowly and methodically created unique programs to help Russian citizens survive the dissolution of the USSR, begin recreating themselves after the fall of Communism, and weather the storms of recurring financial crises. Impossible ideas moves the Americans rapidly forward from obscurity to finding themselves inside the Kremlin, the White House, and the U.S. Congress. A fascinating read, the book is a testament to the power of ordinary citizens to act on their most outlandish ideas and watch them become a reality; even in an international quagmire as deeply entrenched as was the US-USSR relationship.
> 
> Learn more and reserve your spot <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/ss/c/P8Elou2Rvc0qoMPEUZrMXcOpy_XqN4R2ZGjoK-5zZnkKAD_CcDnlZeJHnDkoof6WJFrKSDSGUdPoZvJZGR2_byIFVB1n6GqYrZiaa2wGfhq9I7aMcjkJuWEuDG6zi06LYfgAWV1VTzHpNWZM-ozXP-TcGptn9FuIsxSdAUCIWnR5mEyk5uWqd55uChEXtU_QvAE6QpSR1l1edAMZjbatEDBQXqzYMqNUow4kXSCfXJsPiUpiL6nIqPu0GTJ3YjmnWir7PeQJr_2yo6T8UnOhlk-nU0-81OzGqTjI3WhE5Gl68OAYVQiTTFRyl4x0EIIshCdMwFP4H-m5E6xzv_Qoxruq9jsiK09fvtcAvsEM-ikncbxJGkPzMj1qbdubQ-Vs9bxpJpfRR2aLDtamANkoV04Y93gkSHd2qEUkeeIjakoKAX6nn_Ge7ns9nYQqvKrw6LtxR03sQS-vk2E8ZfzL07ATPQpqRqZosKXIIAws1wLSODOlegtvDmPSJ7UD1Xy_/3k2/a-ol6SOATsat1RidnrEMNg/h5/c7FwUSKBHGPoe-cBzofM0an3vLRLOOL8JQTQ_aGfwvg>.
> 
> Peace,
> 
> David Swanson
> Executive Director, World BEYOND War
> 
> World BEYOND War is a global network of volunteers, chapters, and affiliated organizations advocating for the abolition of the institution of war.  
> 
> Donate to support our people-powered movement for peace. <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/ss/c/P8Elou2Rvc0qoMPEUZrMXZuRoF9hgmtKkx-9yE8eapVkRqdKrcLDAZz0QT6KgEGVZXAv6wdFuntnTf4L4V7IUubnOXEmgRKQDPVXPZnoUrsiZjDjpJGkyUimqOHrKhnGXojH8mGE7KUGmXthHhmh5BwGrd5JSuTmHO8Zen7Bi0OAsnxtLeVuBnsxnyzBEEnWsBVTosCeNpmtVlU22B4lOwn0kELBfKFe2Zq6NYLHizayvjhUNwqzeOIrZ-9Ll2Ewb0xRjRSMqTVKxx6MX9yMtkmWzToYSBVVurmXjxefwNNTVJJ5uQZ0YYeRrUU0ZWhs/3k2/a-ol6SOATsat1RidnrEMNg/h6/D4Y_4vKkdGKEaabR87FWEuqPuZRS0ruBjcZmRQOIxK4>  
> 
>  <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/ss/c/atcYNHk4Eh2YdGnwBh-YDPAZiEt8wwS6hp5wOIb3CiIKzZt96wA1La9xzGKCLTeNC5Ex7Re_YW8Le2Kxj5xbSE2KN9JXysfeO7R2S4RBu-l4S0bRf-FhMiVMpmGhVgfe1JH9QZI73Dh53-4WJhSMeFqjNEO6OEw8TfP8JdXEaX2Rmk84nLMxxB8CoXQKb2dL65n3JPlrcKXKFz457qWM833u9P0C65G_bzvk3b74Cx-wvaj7hUcUWEtDytMPHDYhF5Y08IfvBPl3WHOHVJ0nSz8CNWsVxAKsieblZ84r6azwGAtNJ6NvteHHip-SXtEQ/3k2/a-ol6SOATsat1RidnrEMNg/h7/UvMZ-kw7rnAEy8zBG_nYc2Kiwzroiwk1FBXGINrXJAc>   <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/ss/c/dSCQfi9FLISmU3ZE3bfPhmoeAMZteFkzGhMJxvHk3DzGXLv3GrKbe8iNnCoQ7Jk11eZCPune2_FbUR5HFTeUmNhGvQz7osDJlrw3EtTsqxPTXbI0MOHdAreW4gc0a5KSBWxAIXE6tngkvAXeEt1TQPjjpoaQ_nCuqMxBIK6yYfz9_M_bI9f3brU2hk0bkwfnVQ63o7CviHZGP7S4_KGvNrKQFmX6vMHF5kMlK4zfMAMByTyGe1Mh7u5Uict8KqzACG17_Po5Q8OI-JNmE508eThNQfN-BOZWoipnSZh4Q3sJM_xvPCyYsQX82j_LpVrX/3k2/a-ol6SOATsat1RidnrEMNg/h8/00y2UCeewV-qnwD5XeK_B_DyKv5TBo_VmVsvIO8xOzU>   <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/ss/c/atcYNHk4Eh2YdGnwBh-YDE-osrDsyUs4KS0eRiq-k7RIiFGBQ9a2wLn6slnF-RnbRmpY3DL6WeuBF89UYD8YlZG7_I7fIU97_xMs5K-NX9QFmGyrsr1aLC4Cl20Vi4KaUB6ilAeiCYGUoANo_EXZ5FdElZWolRwpmwG5Rl75pm2-JeWPgJiuX-b2xxOzKN3y0DLQ9jHr_ZS_GvuUUbuta6QUuZZIV0Eweib0-uuTdmBmv8B407s7eTD4yWOUOi_6Qt3Z8aCq4mMzfpmvDZJBJkzkzUoynJ8GRRWOGDE_gFqLm2P7AE3a2nm_A4kirtyy/3k2/a-ol6SOATsat1RidnrEMNg/h9/FbORmfTugm76Xmx23vSZbo_XsA3N8EZpdH9ePBIQTz0>   <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/ss/c/atcYNHk4Eh2YdGnwBh-YDOJPR4Z5lDybbWIPhQSOR8HHRJ_y1NCUrZe3SWQ0FQC_aBtjUGc6EQL4-v0wBCKTciYwGY2XBBNw2GspEz0ES_ehxt571XfQ9EHKbclTZcSsHOChxdOhtI9UqmNGroWdFjjkC5OWqmLysJAYfO0Lq6Z-vfNAHH0qDJhw5GMM_aIzm8NKUijvZ3iQ89VeIB6Gr1Xl3gUSdKRETDqFXwWxDB4Wcm6ix0kz_WO-nJSZwUo-D8FSeskS-OvxosPME0DzVk40moQoEGkKfjzbksjvPm4zDpZgAqRMLos2pYjUSexG/3k2/a-ol6SOATsat1RidnrEMNg/h10/lyljibVufCC3PBcOHWIVAO0NPTEdYTsW3Mz07PKZSAo>   <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/ss/c/atcYNHk4Eh2YdGnwBh-YDG5LmuEqXXKKguMOLHW9cglsBpdJQ8pTQl1yvSupG6p5UPI9lj-QKULnG_ESMrG5qGBmo-74FBDDKZiHxzqc3Ww0ju66NQFTswOZ6GfUgecdYnBd_kNAkNm--MfpeD5fzgNB8apyqmumVK-a79nsmGXTTfoeZw7fMnz1GSCmM9cuKy6Tp04ZBdazgqcwRofQU5KLf5JHIlDBLVg6dgmgNfDe5vhKEMBOmvHKuvyn0BYlZCX1WlF_xGIdtP9A8VsrCjFlpZEOeXBxEEv36Xo5c2XZBwcw5sEXxVgs9nnEi8fbTaMtHYIzrrVEEkfNuOYiyA/3k2/a-ol6SOATsat1RidnrEMNg/h11/KdzZEoNX5SV8I5a1ptY97g0dWUXPHzWCIeoOIT6nWfE>   <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/ss/c/atcYNHk4Eh2YdGnwBh-YDH_24eKJyx4-s2Vugc1z3KwE9IWdKZs9G6c4rtM9kt-vegSt0ze_sZD9JGgFRjjf96Qk1qRhS4iPY0ASdq-OmD44U2LpvS8o2mr4cAodU1nTsN1vQLqQWSTdM-ivavWzHt-8R2HmkTjaqt80q6RsMCJkhwJc1nCMN1HRk0BJx_aAhXE_JZCtj19Js6UBzA7sM-Cosn3em0LDlvLZ2eJElGZgLOXbf-wSl5t8bWnDCHsz6fhdX21ndRLbKUgnIS7Jiocrt4rSYlXHA6PfI0wPniP5rPdR9rQJxzkPr7Mofbxp/3k2/a-ol6SOATsat1RidnrEMNg/h12/uHLc8gs4mFPaJbBAF1e_xpluXltkVAt3Y_mwkEwdRtk>
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> Opt-in to mobile updates. <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/ss/c/P8Elou2Rvc0qoMPEUZrMXcOpy_XqN4R2ZGjoK-5zZnlPJp-hfmXesimzQb6H30KifD0lRjJQIKdmK4ddeV7UF2jv0nOaOmYA3QSxYTWzruVq755QN-kZVsxTvxe1RklCXRAP0y6gSxoBRNcWCTKbs8mfICvq3ca8lgeQilwvok5TGepiReIaKFi03lf5tFKok8_osLKJurEEedY0ISnWrc4bRtyDkjeoKJo-vV7ogJFyydEVZJOY-sM621iF04Jboos5DIllmR9BZCvBawOsrhlY9X8KehEOvF0uNDIdl--5l0Pp7jMF6z-8NLDiYCxB/3k2/a-ol6SOATsat1RidnrEMNg/h13/A2ycgVEVhYTxEgriu5lE5IunKUeHo770NrfkGworC38>  Manage email preferences. <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/ss/c/P8Elou2Rvc0qoMPEUZrMXcOpy_XqN4R2ZGjoK-5zZnko1ngfAiAUzZ7EoLM0yN84fc_46iNokZ72SmpfhvnP9Z4VkB6fIB-9yVCJf7BPKkV21uG-jTND8A0_lFNzyfXSuauTr52K2tz1Hj2_yAIA6ycXtzEMy6Xt5mWsKQuOHQTj8Tt4IsiM539n4XW2A0XBz_C4ryTe-Nw7-mEwoYkfFwfvvZrn2hek4n5sfIpHzm3IQf4_DCw-W9EhYCxCu_SN36xHBEm8t2HdWDTguRLY-6MvOkdep60Toyk7TSHy3lcL2ppPr3eHaEQ1A_U7Eez9p5ejY5QUi6JM6WZFxIIcnfx_dhP9OuKZ1MqhTF5rJ2ibyJfR-NZs2QBCnF9xddAJ6BJL0fF99HZVsZRIJE4oMg/3k2/a-ol6SOATsat1RidnrEMNg/h14/A7BDVgceK1RyUk607_1CORy5O6_9r2DLFbviKTbVDQg>
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> Should giant war-profiteering corporations decide what emails you don't want to read? We don't think so either. So, please stop our emails from going into "junk" or "spam" by "white listing," marking as "safe," or filtering to "never send to spam."
> 
> World BEYOND War | 513 E Main St #1484 | Charlottesville, VA 22902 USA
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  5 15:38:07 2022
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (karen aram)
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 09:38:07 -0600
Subject: [Peace-discuss] An exchange
In-Reply-To: <CH0PR19MB5314586FE76008E771171B5BA3059@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
References: <D41C5D44-96F8-4E09-8E0B-D2C5C0240A7C@illinois.edu>
 <CH0PR19MB5314512981936BFAF7F64EA5A3049@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CALMNhNSGnYoSZyfvQ=+_GmgJmEfs=Q_16AjctBh_awgxEt_Lqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CH0PR19MB53140094DCF019C1B743E5CAA3059@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CALMNhNRoaxrbsoz9suDBQyLtsDwn3_ty=_3rb7M6qDygdTnafg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CH0PR19MB5314586FE76008E771171B5BA3059@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CH0PR19MB53147AE6E0B36A6B6894B567A3069@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>

Please see Morton Brussel?s excellent letter recently submitted to the NG.

"It is disheartening to listen to the chorus of condemnation against Russia. There is no empathy or understanding for the Russian fear of encirclement by weaponized NATO countries. There is no recognition that Russia offered proposals to defuse the situation, proposals derided by the Biden administration. Not only were the proposals basically ignored, but military actions were carried out by a nazified Ukraine military, especially in the Donbas, causing thousands of casualties. Russians no doubt remember how these same Nazi elements incinerated peaceful opponents in Odessa after the coup of Maidan, and feared it would be repeated in eastern Russian-speaking Ukraine. As a result, Russia felt forced to dramatize its serious concerns; hence the current incursion into Ukraine.
 
Preferable actions to create a stir in western and US citizenry would have been clearly evident Russian military forces off the US  east coast, or even weaponry shipped to Cuba, however dangerous. As it is, we have an inert and ignorant American citizenry, lulled and distracted by an all encompassing propaganda matrix. One might have thought that the NATO nations would have considered that their cities could be engulfed in any larger European conflict. Their total condemnation of the Russian attack on Ukraine seems to belie such considerations. 
The sanctions and continued shipping of armaments to Ukraine by NATO countries will likely cause greater conflict. A dire situation, illustrating the turpitude, hypocrisy, and corruption of American government policy-makers and their NATO clients." 
?mkb
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From fboyle at illinois.edu  Sat Mar  5 17:09:54 2022
From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A)
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 17:09:54 +0000
Subject: [Peace-discuss] An exchange
In-Reply-To: <CH0PR19MB53147AE6E0B36A6B6894B567A3069@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
References: <D41C5D44-96F8-4E09-8E0B-D2C5C0240A7C@illinois.edu>
 <CH0PR19MB5314512981936BFAF7F64EA5A3049@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CALMNhNSGnYoSZyfvQ=+_GmgJmEfs=Q_16AjctBh_awgxEt_Lqw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CH0PR11MB5313D8820A81D61B59AA73F0A0069@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Good one! fab

Francis A. Boyle
Law Building
504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
Champaign IL 61820 USA
Phone: 217-333-7954
Fax: 217-244-1478
(personal comments only)


From: karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 9:38 AM
To: Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu>
Cc: Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu>; Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>; Ricky Baldwin <baldwinricky at gmail.com>; Levy, Stuart A <salevy at illinois.edu>
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] An exchange

Please see Morton Brussel?s excellent letter recently submitted to the NG.

"It is disheartening to listen to the chorus of condemnation against Russia. There is no empathy or understanding for the Russian fear of encirclement by weaponized NATO countries. There is no recognition that Russia offered proposals to defuse the situation, proposals derided by the Biden administration. Not only were the proposals basically ignored, but military actions were carried out by a nazified Ukraine military, especially in the Donbas, causing thousands of casualties. Russians no doubt remember how these same Nazi elements incinerated peaceful opponents in Odessa after the coup of Maidan, and feared it would be repeated in eastern Russian-speaking Ukraine. As a result, Russia felt forced to dramatize its serious concerns; hence the current incursion into Ukraine.

Preferable actions to create a stir in western and US citizenry would have been clearly evident Russian military forces off the US  east coast, or even weaponry shipped to Cuba, however dangerous. As it is, we have an inert and ignorant American citizenry, lulled and distracted by an all encompassing propaganda matrix. One might have thought that the NATO nations would have considered that their cities could be engulfed in any larger European conflict. Their total condemnation of the Russian attack on Ukraine seems to belie such considerations.
The sanctions and continued shipping of armaments to Ukraine by NATO countries will likely cause greater conflict. A dire situation, illustrating the turpitude, hypocrisy, and corruption of American government policy-makers and their NATO clients."
?mkb
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From moboct1 at aol.com  Sat Mar  5 17:44:19 2022
From: moboct1 at aol.com (Mildred O'brien)
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 17:44:19 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Peace-discuss] An exchange
In-Reply-To: <CH0PR11MB5313D8820A81D61B59AA73F0A0069@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
References: <D41C5D44-96F8-4E09-8E0B-D2C5C0240A7C@illinois.edu>
 <CH0PR19MB5314512981936BFAF7F64EA5A3049@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CALMNhNSGnYoSZyfvQ=+_GmgJmEfs=Q_16AjctBh_awgxEt_Lqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CH0PR19MB53140094DCF019C1B743E5CAA3059@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CALMNhNRoaxrbsoz9suDBQyLtsDwn3_ty=_3rb7M6qDygdTnafg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CH0PR19MB5314586FE76008E771171B5BA3059@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR19MB53147AE6E0B36A6B6894B567A3069@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR11MB5313D8820A81D61B59AA73F0A0069@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <2079840063.119263.1646502259746@mail.yahoo.com>

A MONTH OLD.? I SENT ONE IN WEDNESDAY AFTER THE "INVASION" THAT WAS MORETIMELY.? DON'T KNOW IF/WHEN IT WILL BE PUBLISHED.? thanks
Midge


-----Original Message-----
From: Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
To: karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com>
Cc: Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu>; Levy, Stuart A <salevy at illinois.edu>; Ricky Baldwin <baldwinricky at gmail.com>; Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
Sent: Sat, Mar 5, 2022 11:10 am
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] An exchange

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Good one! fab
 
 ?
 
Francis A. Boyle
 
Law Building
 
504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
 
Champaign IL 61820 USA
 
Phone: 217-333-7954
 
Fax: 217-244-1478
 
(personal comments only)
 
 ?
 
 ?
 
From: karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com> 
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 9:38 AM
To: Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu>
Cc: Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu>; Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>; Ricky Baldwin <baldwinricky at gmail.com>; Levy, Stuart A <salevy at illinois.edu>
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] An exchange
 
 ?
 
Please see Morton Brussel?s excellent letter recently submitted to the NG.
 
 ?
 
"It is disheartening to listen to the chorus of condemnation against Russia. There is no empathy or understanding for the Russian fear of encirclement by weaponized NATO countries. There is no recognition that Russia offered proposals to defuse the situation, proposals derided by the Biden administration. Not only were the proposals basically ignored, but military actions were carried out by a nazified Ukraine military, especially in the Donbas, causing thousands of casualties. Russians no doubt remember how these same Nazi elements incinerated peaceful opponents in Odessa after the coup of Maidan, and feared it would be repeated in eastern Russian-speaking Ukraine. As a result, Russia felt forced to dramatize its serious concerns; hence the current incursion into Ukraine.
 
?
 
Preferable actions to create a stir in western and US citizenry would have been clearly evident Russian military forces off the US ?east coast, or even weaponry shipped to Cuba, however dangerous. As it is, we have an inert and ignorant American citizenry, lulled and distracted by an all encompassing propaganda matrix. One?might have thought that the NATO nations would have considered that their cities could be engulfed in any larger European conflict. Their total condemnation of the Russian attack on?Ukraine seems to belie such considerations.?
 
The sanctions and continued shipping of armaments to Ukraine by NATO countries will likely cause greater conflict. A dire situation, illustrating the turpitude, hypocrisy, and corruption of American government policy-makers and their NATO clients."?
 
?mkb
 _______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  5 18:11:41 2022
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (karen aram)
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 12:11:41 -0600
Subject: [Peace-discuss] An exchange
In-Reply-To: <CH0PR11MB5313D8820A81D61B59AA73F0A0069@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
References: <D41C5D44-96F8-4E09-8E0B-D2C5C0240A7C@illinois.edu>
 <CH0PR19MB5314512981936BFAF7F64EA5A3049@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CALMNhNSGnYoSZyfvQ=+_GmgJmEfs=Q_16AjctBh_awgxEt_Lqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CH0PR19MB53140094DCF019C1B743E5CAA3059@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CALMNhNRoaxrbsoz9suDBQyLtsDwn3_ty=_3rb7M6qDygdTnafg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CH0PR19MB5314586FE76008E771171B5BA3059@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR19MB53147AE6E0B36A6B6894B567A3069@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR11MB5313D8820A81D61B59AA73F0A0069@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CH0PR19MB5314755C4366A9703638013DA3069@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>

It should be noted that Midge O?brien has a very good letter in todays NG, and Ricky Baldwin had a very good one, published Feb. 27th, but written before the Russian invasion. I see it as still relevant given it points out the issues of causation, which as  said previously, unless the American people focus on the cause, and take responsibility there will likely be no end to the war or provocations and violence. 


> On Mar 5, 2022, at 11:09 AM, Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu> wrote:
> 
> Good one! fab
>  
> Francis A. Boyle
> Law Building
> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
> Champaign IL 61820 USA
> Phone: 217-333-7954
> Fax: 217-244-1478
> (personal comments only)
>  
>  
> From: karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com> 
> Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 9:38 AM
> To: Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu>
> Cc: Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu>; Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>; Ricky Baldwin <baldwinricky at gmail.com>; Levy, Stuart A <salevy at illinois.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] An exchange
>  
> Please see Morton Brussel?s excellent letter recently submitted to the NG.
>  
> "It is disheartening to listen to the chorus of condemnation against Russia. There is no empathy or understanding for the Russian fear of encirclement by weaponized NATO countries. There is no recognition that Russia offered proposals to defuse the situation, proposals derided by the Biden administration. Not only were the proposals basically ignored, but military actions were carried out by a nazified Ukraine military, especially in the Donbas, causing thousands of casualties. Russians no doubt remember how these same Nazi elements incinerated peaceful opponents in Odessa after the coup of Maidan, and feared it would be repeated in eastern Russian-speaking Ukraine. As a result, Russia felt forced to dramatize its serious concerns; hence the current incursion into Ukraine.
> 
>  
> 
> Preferable actions to create a stir in western and US citizenry would have been clearly evident Russian military forces off the US  east coast, or even weaponry shipped to Cuba, however dangerous. As it is, we have an inert and ignorant American citizenry, lulled and distracted by an all encompassing propaganda matrix. One might have thought that the NATO nations would have considered that their cities could be engulfed in any larger European conflict. Their total condemnation of the Russian attack on Ukraine seems to belie such considerations. 
> 
> The sanctions and continued shipping of armaments to Ukraine by NATO countries will likely cause greater conflict. A dire situation, illustrating the turpitude, hypocrisy, and corruption of American government policy-makers and their NATO clients." 
> 
> ?mkb
> 

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From fboyle at illinois.edu  Sat Mar  5 20:07:35 2022
From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A)
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 20:07:35 +0000
Subject: [Peace-discuss] An exchange
In-Reply-To: <CH0PR11MB5313D8820A81D61B59AA73F0A0069@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
References: <D41C5D44-96F8-4E09-8E0B-D2C5C0240A7C@illinois.edu>
 <CH0PR19MB5314512981936BFAF7F64EA5A3049@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CALMNhNSGnYoSZyfvQ=+_GmgJmEfs=Q_16AjctBh_awgxEt_Lqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CH0PR19MB53140094DCF019C1B743E5CAA3059@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CALMNhNRoaxrbsoz9suDBQyLtsDwn3_ty=_3rb7M6qDygdTnafg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CH0PR19MB5314586FE76008E771171B5BA3059@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR19MB53147AE6E0B36A6B6894B567A3069@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR11MB5313D8820A81D61B59AA73F0A0069@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CH0PR11MB5313A786591ED79943C2A9FEA0069@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

  *   Mort et al: It was only 460 Kilometers from the US/NATO/Ukrainian-Nazis in Donbass to Stalingrad, which I have toured. The Sheer Genocidal Savagery of the Nazis there took my breath away. Fab.
  *   Stalingrad
  *   We got off the boat at the docks
  *   Walking into town I was asked
  *   Could I lay some flowers
  *   At the War Memorial
  *   On the Banks of the Volga?
  *
  *   Of course I said yes.
  *   Honored and pleased
  *   My Dad had fought the Japanese
  *   At Saipan, and  Tinian and Okinawa
  *
  *   The Nazis were not his war
  *   But We were All  Allies Together
  *   In the Noble Cause to Defeat Fascism
  *
  *   As I neared the Statue
  *   On the Banks of the Volga
  *   A young Komsomol Girl appeared
  *   All dressed in white
  *   carrying a wreath of roses
  *
  *   A band was playing
  *   Joyful, not somber, but subdued
  *   The Town Elders assembled
  *
  *   The sun was shining
  *   a most beautiful day
  *   On the Banks of the Volga
  *
  *   I lay  my   wreath of roses
  *   To the Defenders and Victims at Stalingrad
  *   And bowed my head in silent reflection
  *
  *   If the Soviets had not held at Stalingrad
  *   All Europe today would be speaking German
  *   And saluting: Heil Hitler!
  *
  *   Deutschland, Deutschland
  *   But not Uber Alles
  *   My Dad was smiling
  *   On the Banks of the Volga
  *   [cid:image001.jpg at 01D8309A.5B1E2A30]
  *
  *
  *
  *

Francis A. Boyle
Law Building
504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
Champaign IL 61820 USA
Phone: 217-333-7954
Fax: 217-244-1478
(personal comments only)


From: Boyle, Francis A
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 11:10 AM
To: karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com>
Cc: Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu>; Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>; Ricky Baldwin <baldwinricky at gmail.com>; Levy, Stuart A <salevy at illinois.edu>
Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss] An exchange

Good one! fab

Francis A. Boyle
Law Building
504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
Champaign IL 61820 USA
Phone: 217-333-7954
Fax: 217-244-1478
(personal comments only)


From: karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com<mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com>>
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 9:38 AM
To: Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu<mailto:fboyle at illinois.edu>>
Cc: Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu<mailto:brussel at illinois.edu>>; Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net<mailto:peace-discuss at anti-war.net>>; Ricky Baldwin <baldwinricky at gmail.com<mailto:baldwinricky at gmail.com>>; Levy, Stuart A <salevy at illinois.edu<mailto:salevy at illinois.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] An exchange

Please see Morton Brussel?s excellent letter recently submitted to the NG.

"It is disheartening to listen to the chorus of condemnation against Russia. There is no empathy or understanding for the Russian fear of encirclement by weaponized NATO countries. There is no recognition that Russia offered proposals to defuse the situation, proposals derided by the Biden administration. Not only were the proposals basically ignored, but military actions were carried out by a nazified Ukraine military, especially in the Donbas, causing thousands of casualties. Russians no doubt remember how these same Nazi elements incinerated peaceful opponents in Odessa after the coup of Maidan, and feared it would be repeated in eastern Russian-speaking Ukraine. As a result, Russia felt forced to dramatize its serious concerns; hence the current incursion into Ukraine.

Preferable actions to create a stir in western and US citizenry would have been clearly evident Russian military forces off the US  east coast, or even weaponry shipped to Cuba, however dangerous. As it is, we have an inert and ignorant American citizenry, lulled and distracted by an all encompassing propaganda matrix. One might have thought that the NATO nations would have considered that their cities could be engulfed in any larger European conflict. Their total condemnation of the Russian attack on Ukraine seems to belie such considerations.
The sanctions and continued shipping of armaments to Ukraine by NATO countries will likely cause greater conflict. A dire situation, illustrating the turpitude, hypocrisy, and corruption of American government policy-makers and their NATO clients."
?mkb
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From mkb0029 at gmail.com  Sun Mar  6 17:22:24 2022
From: mkb0029 at gmail.com (Morton K. Brussel)
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 11:22:24 -0600
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Portentous analysis
Message-ID: <C1C5E98B-FA25-4BD6-81B8-91283127D35E@icloud.com>

I?ve tried to say, in much fewer words, what is said here, but without the dire implications.  I think this artcle is brilliant. and necessary to promulgate. But how?
It makes Chomsky in his latest interview look like a fool, talking glibly about international rules violated by Russia. Ditto David Swanson, CODEPINK and others who I?ve generally liked and respected, who are not understanding now what is at stake?a unipolar world or a multipolar world or a nonpolar world). Or no world at all.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2022/03/04/the-battle-of-ukraine-and-the-war-its-part-of/ <https://www.counterpunch.org/2022/03/04/the-battle-of-ukraine-and-the-war-its-part-of/>

?mkb


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From jbn at forestfield.org  Mon Mar  7 02:57:37 2022
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 20:57:37 -0600
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Recommended videos for AWARE on the Air,
 News from Neptune, and Labor's World View TV
Message-ID: <b0ca0634-407d-b0dc-ad0b-4a2486432f3f@forestfield.org>

Here are the videos I recommended to run during AWARE on the Air, News
from Neptune, and Labor's World View TV.

As a reminder: If anyone else has anything to run, please feel free to
get your video pointers to UPTV (UPTV at urbanaillinois.us). I have
continued to ask UPTV to prioritize AWARE members video pointers over
mine for AWARE on the Air, Carl Estabrook & David Green's video
pointers over mine for News from Neptune, and David Johnson's video
pointers over mine for Labor's World View TV.

Enjoy.
-J




News from Neptune & AWARE on the Air
==================================================

Amnesty International
https://player.vimeo.com/video/674482282 -- (14m 36s) Israel's Apartheid Against 
Palestinians - Cruel System of Domination and Crime Against Humanity

RT
https://yotube.com/watch?v=Ab4qOvrfHOQ -- (1m 57s) RT America closes
https://yotube.com/watch?v=OXpBtWDdHSU -- (2m 20s) French journalist criticized for 
reporting Kiev?s shelling of Eastern Ukraine
https://yotube.com/watch?v=4LX2-pWHETQ -- (28m 57s) Race and America's Long War
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2ZzPP_wUPo4 -- (4m 20s) EU bans RT and Sputnik in 
sweeping crackdown on Russian media outlets
https://youtube.com/watch?v=mqKeSsX89ao -- (6m 25s) 'We can't wish away the nuclear 
threat' | Analyst on ongoing Ukraine conflict

Grayzone
https://vid.puffyan.us/watch?v=l9RSsvTR06k -- (1h 33s) Forever War in Ukraine or End 
of Unipolar World?
https://vid.puffyan.us/watch?v=21h_2RyQKRU -- (2h 30m 15s) Washington's "rules based" 
disorder w/UN expert Alfred de Zayas

Glenn Greenwald
https://youtube.com/watch?v=4dmBWG-BAK4 -- (56m 45s) Calls for Ukrainian no-fly zone, 
though still a minority, are growing and dangerous

BreakThrough News
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gIXdWtjWEP8 -- (15m) U.S. Media Fans Flames in Ukraine War
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2g95ndif134 -- (1h 24m 35s) Ukraine War Exposes US 
Hypocrisy, Double Standards & Racism, w/ Ali Abunimah & Rania Khalek
https://youtube.com/watch?v=CCNriiim3z4 -- (1h 2m 23s) How Russia?s War In Ukraine Is 
Playing Out Inside Russia, w/ Prof. Boris Kagarlitsky
https://youtube.com/watch?v=w6HQeunm2f4 -- (1h 54m 24s) Ukraine: Questions for the US 
Anti-War Movement w/ Abby Martin & Brian Becker
https://youtube.com/watch?v=R1dgx7S1xb4 -- (1h 43m 10s) Ukraine-Russia War Fever & 
Censorship: No Criticism of NATO Allowed

Consortium News
https://youtube.com/watch?v=yjOkk-xfMfQ -- (2h 8m 36s) CN LIVE! S4E3 UKRAINE UPDATE



Labor's World View TV
==================================================

More Perfect Union
https://yotube.com/watch?v=MmjptGacwcc -- (6m 14s) Exploiting Farmworkers Is 100% 
LEGAL In Maine
https://yotube.com/watch?v=L7OIpBpgXMI -- (5m 11s) How Starbucks Workers DEFEATED 
Company's Union-Busting
https://yotube.com/watch?v=eA0ZFmTiMtQ -- (6m) Amy's Kitchen Workers EXPOSE Dangerous 
Conditions At Work

Democracy at Work
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_hf2bCzmwFg -- (25m 33s) Capitalism Hits Home: Sex Work - 
A Marxian Class Analysis
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_gHCSZe58ws -- (8m 46s) Ask Prof Wolff: The Yugoslav 
Experiment
https://youtube.com/watch?v=9ZJd9cmMqwg -- (4m 59s) What Truckers Could Be Demanding 
- Economic Update with Richard Wolff

laborvideo
https://youtube.com/watch?v=q0-uaUVNjS0 -- (1h 15m 2s) Global Civil War: Capitalism 
Post-Pandemic & The Working Class
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Eq4rQoiXwnQ -- (33m 5s) Putin's War, The Oligarchs & The 
Russian Working Class: A Report by Boris Kargalitsky

RT
https://youtube.com/watch?v=HnoAPKEdcc8 -- (10m 54s) ~376~ US Legalizing Child Labor 
To Deal With Labor Shortage
https://youtube.com/watch?v=EL3tQkgkocI -- (19m 39s) VIP | The Truth About Ukraine 
with Ben Norton
https://youtube.com/watch?v=5W3N4ImZaNo -- (4m 21s) Gov?t Bailed Out Restaurants, 
Abandoned Workers

From moboct1 at aim.com  Mon Mar  7 16:29:21 2022
From: moboct1 at aim.com (Mildred O'brien)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 16:29:21 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Portentous analysis
In-Reply-To: <C1C5E98B-FA25-4BD6-81B8-91283127D35E@icloud.com>
References: <C1C5E98B-FA25-4BD6-81B8-91283127D35E@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <1277295973.396558.1646670561990@mail.yahoo.com>

Thank you, Mort, for bringing this important article to my attention.? I have pondered some of the same ideas, but of course without Kavanagh's information or insight.? Or with his facile language in stating the facts so clearly.? Chilling...??
Midge O'Brien


-----Original Message-----
From: Morton K. Brussel via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
To: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>; karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com>; Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu>; midge <midge at illinois.edu>
Cc: Brussel Morton K. <mkb3 at icloud.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 6, 2022 11:22 am
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Portentous analysis

I?ve tried to say, in much fewer words, what is said here, but without the dire implications. ?I think this artcle is brilliant. and necessary to promulgate. But how?It makes Chomsky in his latest interview look like a fool, talking glibly about international rules violated by Russia. Ditto David Swanson, CODEPINK and others who I?ve generally liked and respected, who are not understanding now what is at stake?a unipolar world or a multipolar world or a nonpolar world). Or no world at all.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2022/03/04/the-battle-of-ukraine-and-the-war-its-part-of/
?mkb

_______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
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From jbn at forestfield.org  Tue Mar  8 04:50:18 2022
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:50:18 -0600
Subject: [Peace-discuss] On NATO's moving "not one inch eastward"
Message-ID: <0949f1e1-f660-2c63-29d3-514f470dc5d6@forestfield.org>

NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive

 From 
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early 
which starts:
> Washington D.C., December 12, 2017 ? U.S. Secretary of State James Baker?s famous
> ?not one inch eastward? assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet
> leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances
> about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet
> officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991,
> according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents
> posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University
> (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu).
> 
> The documents show that multiple national leaders were considering and rejecting
> Central and Eastern European membership in NATO as of early 1990 and through 1991,
> that discussions of NATO in the context of German unification negotiations in 1990
> were not at all narrowly limited to the status of East German territory, and that
> subsequent Soviet and Russian complaints about being misled about NATO expansion
> were founded in written contemporaneous memcons and telcons at the highest levels.
> 
> 
> The documents reinforce former CIA Director Robert Gates?s criticism of ?pressing
> ahead with expansion of NATO eastward [in the 1990s], when Gorbachev and others
> were led to believe that wouldn?t happen.?[1] The key phrase, buttressed by the
> documents, is ?led to believe.?
> 
> President George H.W. Bush had assured Gorbachev during the Malta summit in
> December 1989 that the U.S. would not take advantage (?I have not jumped up and
> down on the Berlin Wall?) of the revolutions in Eastern Europe to harm Soviet
> interests; but neither Bush nor Gorbachev at that point (or for that matter, West
> German Chancellor Helmut Kohl) expected so soon the collapse of East Germany or
> the speed of German unification.[2]
> 
> The first concrete assurances by Western leaders on NATO began on January 31,
> 1990, when West German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher opened the bidding
> with a major public speech at Tutzing, in Bavaria, on German unification. The U.S.
> Embassy in Bonn (see Document 1) informed Washington that Genscher made clear
> ?that the changes in Eastern Europe and the German unification process must not
> lead to an ?impairment of Soviet security interests.? Therefore, NATO should rule
> out an ?expansion of its territory towards the east, i.e. moving it closer to the
> Soviet borders.?? The Bonn cable also noted Genscher?s proposal to leave the East
> German territory out of NATO military structures even in a unified Germany in
> NATO.[3]
> 
> This latter idea of special status for the GDR territory was codified in the final
> German unification treaty signed on September 12, 1990, by the Two-Plus-Four
> foreign ministers (see Document 25). The former idea about ?closer to the Soviet
> borders? is written down not in treaties but in multiple memoranda of conversation
> between the Soviets and the highest-level Western interlocutors (Genscher, Kohl,
> Baker, Gates, Bush, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Major, Woerner, and others) offering
> assurances throughout 1990 and into 1991 about protecting Soviet security
> interests and including the USSR in new European security structures. The two
> issues were related but not the same. Subsequent analysis sometimes conflated the
> two and argued that the discussion did not involve all of Europe. The documents
> published below show clearly that it did.


[1] See Robert Gates, University of Virginia, Miller Center Oral History, George H.W. 
Bush Presidency, July 24, 2000, p. 101)

[2] See Chapter 6, ?The Malta Summit 1989,? in Svetlana Savranskaya and Thomas 
Blanton, The Last Superpower Summits (CEU Press, 2016), pp. 481-569. The comment 
about the Wall is on p. 538.

[3] For background, context, and consequences of the Tutzing speech, see Frank Elbe, 
?The Diplomatic Path to Germany Unity,? Bulletin of the German Historical Institute 
46 (Spring 2010), pp. 33-46. Elbe was Genscher?s chief of staff at the time.

From jbn at forestfield.org  Wed Mar  9 01:11:20 2022
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 19:11:20 -0600
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Joe Biden in 1997 saying the only thing that could
 provoke a "vigorous and hostile" Russian response would be if NATO expanded
 as far as the Baltic states
In-Reply-To: <0949f1e1-f660-2c63-29d3-514f470dc5d6@forestfield.org>
References: <0949f1e1-f660-2c63-29d3-514f470dc5d6@forestfield.org>
Message-ID: <da8839d8-8052-30f0-b810-1ba0c69ee540@forestfield.org>

I wrote:
> NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive


Joe Biden's words from 1997 are getting some coverage in the alternative media:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=o7DbO51Z3Co -- Jimmy Dore: "Video: Biden Predicted 
Ukraine War In 1997!"

https://youtube.com/watch?v=usxkG1Ffpxk -- RT: "How NATO forgot about its promise not 
to expand to Eastern Europe and what did it lead to" including a segment of an 
interview with Diana Johnstone.

https://vid.puffyan.us/watch?v=iVnuYiawhTk --
Joe Biden 1997 C-Span Provoking Russia by expanding NATO

This footage from C-SPAN isn't getting much coverage in the establishment media.

From carl at newsfromneptune.com  Sun Mar 13 01:28:33 2022
From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook)
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:28:33 -0600
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: [marxmail] And another casualty of the
 invasion of Ukraine, neon
References: <WLDn.1647129799194136221.KLQQ@groups.io>
Message-ID: <80B7069A-44AC-45ED-96C9-85A278C7E64A@newsfromneptune.com>

?The lamps are going out all over ? we shall not see them lit again in our lifetime? --Sir Edward Grey, 3 August 1914. (Grey was speaking to his friend, the journalist John Alfred Spender, editor of the Westminster Gazette, in Grey?s room in the Foreign Office. Looking out from his window, across St. James? Park, it was dusk and the first of the gas lights along the Mall were being lit. The next day Grey would have to face the Cabinet and to persuade them that the time had now come to declare war on Germany.)

"The military incursion has forced Ukraine?s two leading neon suppliers to suspend operations, a major disruption with global economic consequences. Neon is critically important to semiconductor chip manufacturing, and nearly half of the world?s semiconductor-grade neon originates from these two suppliers, Ingas and Cryoin, Reuters notes.?

[Neon prices saw a 600% price increase during Russia?s last conflict with Ukraine in 2014.]

https://gizmodo.com/neon-production-for-chips-halved-by-war-in-ukraine-1848641833
https://www.reuters.com/technology/exclusive-ukraine-halts-half-worlds-neon-output-chips-clouding-outlook-2022-03-11/

So, it's probably best not to bet on capitalist economies reaching any sense of normalcy (for a capitalist economy that is) this year.



From jbn at forestfield.org  Sun Mar 13 03:43:52 2022
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 21:43:52 -0600
Subject: [Peace-discuss] How to see RT... for now...
Message-ID: <9461448d-05d3-cb4c-ad3a-5e4230f8c839@forestfield.org>

YouTube no longer hosts RT's channels at least for US visitors.

The following should work... for now...

RT
https://odysee.com/@RT:fd
https://rumble.com/c/RTNews


RT Documentary
https://odysee.com/@RTDocumentary:4


RT Play (I'm not sure what this is, but it is RT media)
https://rumble.com/c/RTPlay


and if you're on a foreign VPN, you can visit https://rt.com/ with a lot less hassle. 
If you visit that site from the US you'll likely get the Javascript-based checker 
that determines if it's allowable to let you read RT's articles and see their videos 
& live feeds. Maybe you'll see RT's site.



The following are well within the bounds of what comes next:

- .com registry revokes rt.com's domain at the behest of the US. They did this to an 
Iranian news outlet.

- The US & UK hold governmental meetings (showboat opportunities for Senators and UK 
government reps) to ask questions of Odysee and Rumble representatives along the 
lines of "Why do you allow the Devil to speak and be heard?" and "Why aren't you 
following the lead shown to you by YouTube/Google?".

- Rumble & Odysee's network providers drop support for their virtual machines (if 
they have any) and networks as more US companies virtue signal support for Ukraine.

From jbn at forestfield.org  Sun Mar 13 05:05:57 2022
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 23:05:57 -0600
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tech censorship, virtue signaling,
 and being "deeply saddened" about Ukraine in an empire-compatible
 way
In-Reply-To: <9461448d-05d3-cb4c-ad3a-5e4230f8c839@forestfield.org>
References: <9461448d-05d3-cb4c-ad3a-5e4230f8c839@forestfield.org>
Message-ID: <d3b66dbf-3a64-9cd3-edee-d6ddc08756e9@forestfield.org>

I wrote:
> YouTube no longer hosts RT's channels at least for US visitors.

I got this wrong -- this ban is now global per 
https://rumble.com/vx6e0p-yt-blocks-rt-meta-breaks-its-own-hate-speech-rules-big-techs-crackdown-on-f.html

And Meta (formerly Facebook) is saying that some language endorsing violence is okay 
(thus violating its former rules) -- words of violence against some Russians. Jimmy 
Dore recently covered this as well in 
https://rumble.com/vx5y70-facebook-oks-violent-speech-but-only-against-russians.html

And DuckDuckGo is rendering itself irrelevant as Dore also covered in 
https://rumble.com/vx5y84-duckduckgo-destroys-brand-by-embracing-censorship.html ; 
apparently DDG will downrank "Russian disinformation". Nobody (not even DDG) can 
define what exactly constitutes "Russian disinformation" because that definition will 
change. And leave it up to the disinformers at the New York Times to claim that "The 
far right complains after the search engine DuckDuckGo vows to limit Russian 
propaganda." in 
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/11/technology/duckduckgo-russia-disinformation.html . 
Actually, lots of DDG users are complaining. And since when is the "far right" bad? 
That's the phrase the NYT uses to talk about the group formerly described as Nazis, 
the US partners in Ukraine, the Azov Battalion. Don't worry -- this disinformation 
isn't being downranked.

Consider the following search engines instead:

- Startpage -- https://startpage.com/

I've seen 
https://www.startpage.com/privacy-please/press-releases/startpage-stands-with-the-people-of-ukraine 
as well and I see no corresponding notice about Startpage being "deeply saddened by 
the tragic events unfolding in Ukraine" when the US was backing a coup there and 
helping install Nazis in the Ukrainian government. Or 8 years of shelling the people 
of the Donbas. I take Startpage's blog post to be virtue signaling from people who 
don't appear to have any history of this conflict dating back further than 2 weeks. 
But they haven't said that they'll change the ranking of links based on the content 
or origin of the link.

- SearXNG instances -- https://searx.space/

This is a very interesting project where your search terms are checked on multiple 
(over 70 now) search services, then aggregated and the results are fed to you. There 
are a lot of instances of this search engine and I'm looking for one that doesn't 
require Javascript (as, sadly, the https://searx.space/ page does).

From mkb0029 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 13 05:29:10 2022
From: mkb0029 at gmail.com (Morton K. Brussel)
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 23:29:10 -0600
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Mearsheimer McGovern Analysis: Ukraine
Message-ID: <C8692345-10E5-4310-9AD0-F2F4A811C740@icloud.com>

These arguments need wide dissemination:   https://zububrothers.com/2022/03/10/watch-john-mearsheimer-ex-cia-ray-mcgovern-discuss-why-ukraine-is-going-to-get-wrecked/ <https://zububrothers.com/2022/03/10/watch-john-mearsheimer-ex-cia-ray-mcgovern-discuss-why-ukraine-is-going-to-get-wrecked/>

It offers a different  perspective to the overwhelming anti-Russian views of our propaganda edifice.  

Also, 

?mkb
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 13 17:33:40 2022
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (karen aram)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 12:33:40 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Mearsheimer McGovern Analysis: Ukraine
In-Reply-To: <C8692345-10E5-4310-9AD0-F2F4A811C740@icloud.com>
References: <C8692345-10E5-4310-9AD0-F2F4A811C740@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <CH0PR19MB531438D38EAF66F8BE20603BA30E9@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>

Mort

I?m adding a Rania Khalek and Ali Abunimah discussion, as less academic but they bring a valuable perspective as well. I have posted this and many others, as has Carl Estabrook, on FB but few people seem to be reading them. Few people care to change their minds, already made up based upon pre-conceptions due to identity politics and our corporate owned media contributing?..

https://www.breakthroughnews.org/post/ukraine-war-exposes-us-hypocrisy-double-standards-racism

> On Mar 12, 2022, at 11:29 PM, Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> These arguments need wide dissemination:   https://zububrothers.com/2022/03/10/watch-john-mearsheimer-ex-cia-ray-mcgovern-discuss-why-ukraine-is-going-to-get-wrecked/ <https://zububrothers.com/2022/03/10/watch-john-mearsheimer-ex-cia-ray-mcgovern-discuss-why-ukraine-is-going-to-get-wrecked/>
> 
> It offers a different  perspective to the overwhelming anti-Russian views of our propaganda edifice.  
> 
> Also, 
> 
> ?mkb

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From r-szoke at illinois.edu  Mon Mar 14 19:47:58 2022
From: r-szoke at illinois.edu (Szoke, Ron)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 19:47:58 +0000
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Albert Einstein (Born 3/14/1879, "Pi Day")
Message-ID: <CH0PR11MB5689B77FCBA39DDC3939D09F8C0F9@CH0PR11MB5689.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

ALBERT EINSTEIN  (14 March 1879 ? 18 April 1955) 
was a German-born theoretical physicist,[7] widely acknowledged to be one of the greatest physicists of all time. Einstein is best known for developing the theory of relativity, but he also made important contributions to the development of the theory of quantum mechanics. Relativity and quantum mechanics are together the two pillars of modern physics.[3][8] His mass?energy equivalence formula E = mc^2, which arises from relativity theory, has been dubbed "the world's most famous equation".[9] His work is also known for its influence on the philosophy of science.[10][11] He received the 1921 Nobel Prize in Physics "for his services to theoretical physics, and especially for his discovery of the law of the photoelectric effect",[12] a pivotal step in the development of quantum theory. His intellectual achievements and originality resulted in "Einstein" becoming synonymous with "genius".[13]
	In 1905, a year sometimes described as his annus mirabilis ('miracle year'), Einstein published four groundbreaking papers.[14] These outlined the theory of the photoelectric effect, explained Brownian motion, introduced special relativity, and demonstrated mass-energy equivalence. Einstein thought that the laws of classical mechanics could no longer be reconciled with those of the electromagnetic field, which led him to develop his special theory of relativity. He then extended the theory to gravitational fields; he published a paper on general relativity in 1916, introducing his theory of gravitation. In 1917, he applied the general theory of relativity to model the structure of the universe.[15][16] He continued to deal with problems of statistical mechanics and quantum theory, which led to his explanations of particle theory and the motion of molecules. He also investigated the thermal properties of light and the quantum theory of radiation, which laid the foundation of the photon theory of light.
		In 1918, Einstein was one of the founding members of the German Democratic Party, a liberal party.[171] Later in his life, Einstein's political view was in favor of socialism and critical of capitalism, which he detailed in his essays such as "Why Socialism?"[172][173] His opinions on the Bolsheviks also changed with time. In 1925, he criticized them for not having a 'well-regulated system of government' and called their rule a 'regime of terror and a tragedy in human history'. He later adopted a more moderated view, criticizing their methods but praising them, which is shown by his 1929 remark on Vladimir Lenin: "In Lenin I honor a man, who in total sacrifice of his own person has committed his entire energy to realizing social justice. I do not find his methods advisable. One thing is certain, however: men like him are the guardians and renewers of mankind's conscience."[174] Einstein offered and was called on to give judgments and opinions on matters often unrelated to theoretical physics or mathematics.[132] He strongly advocated the idea of a democratic global government that would check the power of nation-states in the framework of a world federation.[175] He wrote "I advocate world government because I am convinced that there is no other possible way of eliminating the most terrible danger in which man has ever found himself."[176] The FBI created a secret dossier on Einstein in 1932, and by the time of his death his FBI file was 1,427 pages long.[177]
	Einstein was deeply impressed by Mahatma Gandhi, with whom he exchanged written letters. He described Gandhi as "a role model for the generations to come".[178] The initial connection was established on 27 September 1931, when Wilfrid Israel took his Indian guest V. A. Sundaram to meet his friend Einstein at his summer home in the town of Caputh. Sundaram was Gandhi's disciple and special envoy, whom Wilfrid Israel met while visiting India and visiting the Indian leader's home in 1925. During the visit, Einstein wrote a short letter to Gandhi that was delivered to him through his envoy, and Gandhi responded quickly with his own letter. Although in the end Einstein and Gandhi were unable to meet as they had hoped, the direct connection between them was established through Wilfrid Israel.[179].
		Einstein spoke of his spiritual outlook in a wide array of original writings and interviews.[180] He said he had sympathy for the impersonal pantheistic God of Baruch Spinoza's philosophy.[181] He did not believe in a personal god who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings, a view which he described as na?ve.[182] He clarified, however, that "I am not an atheist",[183] preferring to call himself an agnostic,[184][185] or a "deeply religious nonbeliever".[182] When asked if he believed in an afterlife, Einstein replied, "No. And one life is enough for me."[186]
		Einstein was primarily affiliated with non-religious humanist and Ethical Culture groups in both the UK and US. He served on the advisory board of the First Humanist Society of New York,[187] and was an honorary associate of the Rationalist Association, which publishes New Humanist in Britain. For the 75th anniversary of the New York Society for Ethical Culture, he stated that the idea of Ethical Culture embodied his personal conception of what is most valuable and enduring in religious idealism. He observed, "Without 'ethical culture' there is no salvation for humanity."[188]
		In a German-language letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, dated 3 January 1954, Einstein wrote:
	<< The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. ... For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. ... I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them.[189] >>
		Death:  On 17 April 1955, Einstein experienced internal bleeding caused by the rupture of an abdominal aortic aneurysm, which had previously been reinforced surgically by Rudolph Nissen in 1948.[190] He took the draft of a speech he was preparing for a television appearance commemorating the state of Israel's seventh anniversary with him to the hospital, but he did not live to complete it.[191]
		Einstein refused surgery, saying, "I want to go when I want. It is tasteless to prolong life artificially. I have done my share; it is time to go. I will do it elegantly."[192] He died in the University Medical Center of Princeton at Plainsboro early the next morning at the age of 76, having continued to work until near the end.[193]
		In a memorial lecture delivered on 13 December 1965 at UNESCO headquarters, nuclear physicist J. Robert Oppenheimer summarized his impression of Einstein as a person: "He was almost wholly without sophistication and wholly without worldliness ... There was always with him a wonderful purity at once childlike and profoundly stubborn."[198]
		Einstein bequeathed his personal archives, library and intellectual assets to the Hebrew University of Jerusalem in Israel.[199]

		? Excerpted from Wikipedia online, 3/14/2022
===

From r-szoke at illinois.edu  Mon Mar 14 19:47:58 2022
From: r-szoke at illinois.edu (Szoke, Ron)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 19:47:58 +0000
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Albert Einstein (Born 3/14/1879, "Pi Day")
Message-ID: <CH0PR11MB5689B77FCBA39DDC3939D09F8C0F9@CH0PR11MB5689.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

ALBERT EINSTEIN  (14 March 1879 ? 18 April 1955) 
was a German-born theoretical physicist,[7] widely acknowledged to be one of the greatest physicists of all time. Einstein is best known for developing the theory of relativity, but he also made important contributions to the development of the theory of quantum mechanics. Relativity and quantum mechanics are together the two pillars of modern physics.[3][8] His mass?energy equivalence formula E = mc^2, which arises from relativity theory, has been dubbed "the world's most famous equation".[9] His work is also known for its influence on the philosophy of science.[10][11] He received the 1921 Nobel Prize in Physics "for his services to theoretical physics, and especially for his discovery of the law of the photoelectric effect",[12] a pivotal step in the development of quantum theory. His intellectual achievements and originality resulted in "Einstein" becoming synonymous with "genius".[13]
	In 1905, a year sometimes described as his annus mirabilis ('miracle year'), Einstein published four groundbreaking papers.[14] These outlined the theory of the photoelectric effect, explained Brownian motion, introduced special relativity, and demonstrated mass-energy equivalence. Einstein thought that the laws of classical mechanics could no longer be reconciled with those of the electromagnetic field, which led him to develop his special theory of relativity. He then extended the theory to gravitational fields; he published a paper on general relativity in 1916, introducing his theory of gravitation. In 1917, he applied the general theory of relativity to model the structure of the universe.[15][16] He continued to deal with problems of statistical mechanics and quantum theory, which led to his explanations of particle theory and the motion of molecules. He also investigated the thermal properties of light and the quantum theory of radiation, which laid the foundation of the photon theory of light.
		In 1918, Einstein was one of the founding members of the German Democratic Party, a liberal party.[171] Later in his life, Einstein's political view was in favor of socialism and critical of capitalism, which he detailed in his essays such as "Why Socialism?"[172][173] His opinions on the Bolsheviks also changed with time. In 1925, he criticized them for not having a 'well-regulated system of government' and called their rule a 'regime of terror and a tragedy in human history'. He later adopted a more moderated view, criticizing their methods but praising them, which is shown by his 1929 remark on Vladimir Lenin: "In Lenin I honor a man, who in total sacrifice of his own person has committed his entire energy to realizing social justice. I do not find his methods advisable. One thing is certain, however: men like him are the guardians and renewers of mankind's conscience."[174] Einstein offered and was called on to give judgments and opinions on matters often unrelated to theoretical physics or mathematics.[132] He strongly advocated the idea of a democratic global government that would check the power of nation-states in the framework of a world federation.[175] He wrote "I advocate world government because I am convinced that there is no other possible way of eliminating the most terrible danger in which man has ever found himself."[176] The FBI created a secret dossier on Einstein in 1932, and by the time of his death his FBI file was 1,427 pages long.[177]
	Einstein was deeply impressed by Mahatma Gandhi, with whom he exchanged written letters. He described Gandhi as "a role model for the generations to come".[178] The initial connection was established on 27 September 1931, when Wilfrid Israel took his Indian guest V. A. Sundaram to meet his friend Einstein at his summer home in the town of Caputh. Sundaram was Gandhi's disciple and special envoy, whom Wilfrid Israel met while visiting India and visiting the Indian leader's home in 1925. During the visit, Einstein wrote a short letter to Gandhi that was delivered to him through his envoy, and Gandhi responded quickly with his own letter. Although in the end Einstein and Gandhi were unable to meet as they had hoped, the direct connection between them was established through Wilfrid Israel.[179].
		Einstein spoke of his spiritual outlook in a wide array of original writings and interviews.[180] He said he had sympathy for the impersonal pantheistic God of Baruch Spinoza's philosophy.[181] He did not believe in a personal god who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings, a view which he described as na?ve.[182] He clarified, however, that "I am not an atheist",[183] preferring to call himself an agnostic,[184][185] or a "deeply religious nonbeliever".[182] When asked if he believed in an afterlife, Einstein replied, "No. And one life is enough for me."[186]
		Einstein was primarily affiliated with non-religious humanist and Ethical Culture groups in both the UK and US. He served on the advisory board of the First Humanist Society of New York,[187] and was an honorary associate of the Rationalist Association, which publishes New Humanist in Britain. For the 75th anniversary of the New York Society for Ethical Culture, he stated that the idea of Ethical Culture embodied his personal conception of what is most valuable and enduring in religious idealism. He observed, "Without 'ethical culture' there is no salvation for humanity."[188]
		In a German-language letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, dated 3 January 1954, Einstein wrote:
	<< The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. ... For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. ... I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them.[189] >>
		Death:  On 17 April 1955, Einstein experienced internal bleeding caused by the rupture of an abdominal aortic aneurysm, which had previously been reinforced surgically by Rudolph Nissen in 1948.[190] He took the draft of a speech he was preparing for a television appearance commemorating the state of Israel's seventh anniversary with him to the hospital, but he did not live to complete it.[191]
		Einstein refused surgery, saying, "I want to go when I want. It is tasteless to prolong life artificially. I have done my share; it is time to go. I will do it elegantly."[192] He died in the University Medical Center of Princeton at Plainsboro early the next morning at the age of 76, having continued to work until near the end.[193]
		In a memorial lecture delivered on 13 December 1965 at UNESCO headquarters, nuclear physicist J. Robert Oppenheimer summarized his impression of Einstein as a person: "He was almost wholly without sophistication and wholly without worldliness ... There was always with him a wonderful purity at once childlike and profoundly stubborn."[198]
		Einstein bequeathed his personal archives, library and intellectual assets to the Hebrew University of Jerusalem in Israel.[199]

		? Excerpted from Wikipedia online, 3/14/2022
===

From davegreen84 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 14 21:08:55 2022
From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com (David Green)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 21:08:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Submitted letter to News Gazette
References: <741835643.2454235.1647292135257.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <741835643.2454235.1647292135257@mail.yahoo.com>


Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union (1991), the goal of the American ruling class has been to prevent any rapprochement between the European Union and Russia. Such a development would threaten European subordination to American economic and military hegemony, as well as facilitate the rise of China in a multipolar global context.

Thus, since the early 2000s, enormous pressure has been put on Ukraine to act as an impoverished, corrupt, and dependent extension of the US, EU, and NATO. This has been accompanied by Ukrainian oligarchical asset stripping, indebtedness and governmental austerity dictated by the International Monetary Fund, emigration/de-population, massive infusions of American weapons, and the rise of the neo-fascist, pro-American Azov battalion in Western Ukraine.

In 2014, Barack Obama promoted the Maidan coup in response to a neutral and fairly-elected (if corrupt) Ukrainian administration, respectful of the Russian-speaking Donbas (eastern) region. This coup, like so many ?color revolutions?, was subsumed by neoconservative U.S. State Department operatives (Victoria Nuland).

Vladimir Putin?s unremarkable redlines have been clear throughout regarding NATO membership, the militarization of Ukraine, and ongoing Ukrainian attacks in the Donbas, with 14,000 dead since 2014. Also clear have been Joe Biden?s efforts, as Vice President and President, to play a provocative, dangerous game of chicken, resulting in a predictable and violent outcome.
The American ruling class and its media apparatchiks will continue to turn the truth on its head, with the assistance of the academic class, including locally (Nicholas Grossman, Valerii Robinson). Their propaganda should be rejected.
David Green
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From jbn at forestfield.org  Mon Mar 14 22:04:27 2022
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 17:04:27 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Recommended videos for AWARE on the Air,
 News from Neptune, and Labor's World View TV
Message-ID: <fff566b4-f1e7-9293-c0bb-07d3353bb77c@forestfield.org>

Here are the videos I recommended to run during AWARE on the Air, News
from Neptune, and Labor's World View TV.

There's a number of previously-run videos that are still current and in the queue so 
don't be surprised if you don't hear from me for a week or two on this while I take 
care of some other issues going on for me.

As a reminder: If anyone else has anything to run, please feel free to
get your video pointers to UPTV (UPTV at urbanaillinois.us). I have
continued to ask UPTV to prioritize AWARE members video pointers over
mine for AWARE on the Air, Carl Estabrook & David Green's video
pointers over mine for News from Neptune, and David Johnson's video
pointers over mine for Labor's World View TV.

Enjoy.
-J



News from Neptune & AWARE on the Air
==================================================

Glenn Greenwald
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yn_HZ3Ta-5w
https://rumble.com/vx2iq7-the-white-houses-game-playing-denials-of-bio-labs-in-ukraine.html 
(56m 28s)

RT
https://rumble.com/vx6e0p-yt-blocks-rt-meta-breaks-its-own-hate-speech-rules-big-techs-crackdown-on-f.html 
-- (3m 27s) YT blocks RT, Meta breaks its own hate-speech rules: Big Tech's crackdown 
on free speech

MintPressNews
https://youtube.com/watch?v=reodvYM61wg -- (1h 13m 49s) The Latest Target in the 
Israel Lobby?s War on Academia: Shahd Abusalama
https://youtube.com/watch?v=lE2XYcHnJqE -- (1h 23m 8s) MintPress News Live: Bio-Labs 
in Ukraine, with Dan Cohen, Dilyana Gaytandzhieva and Scott Ritter
https://youtube.com/watch?v=3DQXcaxFMUs -- (59s) English-language media?s racist 
double standards are on full display.

TeleSUR English
https://youtube.com/watch?v=O3clHosyzWs -- (2m 46s) Russia shelters hundreds of 
thousands of civilians fleeing the conflict in Donbas

BreakThrough News
https://youtube.com/watch?v=IlvxqwS2NvQ -- (13m 58s) Building the Anti-War Movement 
Amid War Fever & Censorship
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Q2MVQEMYeTk -- (20m 48s) Fractures in Russian Left Over 
Ukraine: An Antiwar Perspective, w/ Alexey Sakhnin
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2g95ndif134 -- (1h 24m 35s) Ukraine War Exposes US 
Hypocrisy, Double Standards & Racism, w/ Ali Abunimah & Rania Khalek
https://vid.puffyan.us/watch?v=FYhBW-yQaqs -- (1h 23m 25s) How Ukraine War Affects 
the World Order & the Global Power Balance, w/ Vijay Prashad & Rania Khalek

The Socialist Program with Brian Becker
https://youtube.com/watch?v=uPAqExszum0 -- (54m 5s) Peace is Possible: The Solution 
to the Crisis in Ukraine

The Convo Couch
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Tn7WBfpf8SE -- (36m 22s) Censorship, RT America, Ukraine 
w/ Caleb Maupin
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Y9zVQSsbVf4 -- (20m 8s) Woman Exposes Truth About Ukraine 
in French Media

Consortium News
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeeqooNWO48 -- (1h 46m 15s)
Putin's Invasion of Ukraine Salon | Ray McGovern, John Mearsheimer



Labor's World View TV
==================================================

More Perfect Union
https://youtube.com/watch?v=z5PLEZiSZVw -- (17m 48s) Private Equity Robbed Taylor 
Swift & Dunkin' ? You're Next. | The Class Room ft. Adam Conover
https://youtube.com/watch?v=n4FCVN7xxHA -- (5m 34s) Starbucks Manager Drives 
Pro-Union Worker To Tears
https://youtube.com/watch?v=6wS2NePY5UM -- (5m 31s) UPS Workers EXPOSE Company's 
Abuse & Retaliation
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D66XLrvX_VY -- (4m 22s) California Students BATTLE 
University For Affordable Housing
https://youtube.com/watch?v=JWWhXq5IkfY -- (5m 53s) Elon Musk's Corporate Welfare Is 
On The Ballot in Austin, Texas
https://youtube.com/watch?v=OqGQCDCuLD4 -- (5m 36s) Union Kitchen Workers Are Unionizing
https://youtube.com/watch?v=rvr5HsMOCHM -- (5m 21s) The Biden Admin Is Ending Junk 
Fees & Overdraft Charges
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Z1NEO6PbuGo -- (7m 20s) How Corporations Weaponize Cops & 
Courts Against Workers
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZWvOgJ7xAFE -- (5m 41s) Farmworkers Call For Nationwide 
Wendy's Boycott

From karenaram at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 15 17:35:31 2022
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (karen aram)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 12:35:31 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Bioweapons
Message-ID: <CH0PR19MB53145E5ACFDAE1F74451A2C1A3109@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPt9Bc2DFAY

From fboyle at illinois.edu  Tue Mar 15 17:40:43 2022
From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 17:40:43 +0000
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Bioweapons
In-Reply-To: <CH0PR19MB53145E5ACFDAE1F74451A2C1A3109@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CH0PR19MB53145E5ACFDAE1F74451A2C1A3109@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CH0PR11MB531327D340E75EAD21755256A0109@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Nazi Death Scientists

Francis A. Boyle
Law Building
504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
Champaign IL 61820 USA
Phone: 217-333-7954
Fax: 217-244-1478
(personal comments only)


-----Original Message-----
From: karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:36 PM
To: Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu>; Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu>; C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com>; David Johnson <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net>
Cc: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
Subject: Bioweapons

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPt9Bc2DFAY__;!!DZ3fjg!pijoLpFpGj3yqWjmmgSlGeRCp9jNcHvR4eHSHlvQEAu_ObfqCt8WiSCJafvbwcBfMQ$ 

From jbn at forestfield.org  Tue Mar 15 23:59:31 2022
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 18:59:31 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Bioweapons
In-Reply-To: <CH0PR11MB531327D340E75EAD21755256A0109@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CH0PR19MB53145E5ACFDAE1F74451A2C1A3109@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR11MB531327D340E75EAD21755256A0109@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <b64cc03a-b644-f176-d26d-a1a0d8d8d515@forestfield.org>

Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote:
> Nazi Death Scientists

Thanks Karen & Francis for the video pointer.

I've also added this to the URL to the next set of videos I plan to point UPTV to. If 
you'd like to get them this video sooner, please feel free to write 
UPTV at urbanaillinois.us (that's the address where I send recommendations for News from 
Neptune, AWARE on the Air, and Labor's World View TV).


From r-szoke at illinois.edu  Wed Mar 16 02:45:51 2022
From: r-szoke at illinois.edu (Szoke, Ron)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 02:45:51 +0000
Subject: [Peace-discuss] SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS
Message-ID: <CH0PR11MB5689956D9A177996976749228C119@CH0PR11MB5689.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

?Thus always to tyrants!? -- Brutus?  Ides [15th] of March, 44 BCE
   Sic semper tyrannis is a Latin phrase meaning "thus always to tyrants". It suggests that bad but just outcomes should or eventually will befall tyrants.   
   ?A descendant of Brutus was Senator Marcus Junius Brutus, who was present at the assassination of Julius Caesar on 15 March 44 BC.[1][2] While he is sometimes credited with originating the phrase, Plutarch suggests he either did not have a chance to say anything, or if he did, no one heard it:  thus done to death, the senators, although Brutus came forward as if to say something about what had been done, would not wait to hear him, but burst out of doors and fled, thus filling the people with confusion and helpless fear.[3]  The phrase has been invoked, in Europe and elsewhere, as an epithet about one allegedly abusing power, or as a rallying cry against abuse of power.? ? Wikipedia
//  ?The assassination of Julius Caesar on what the Romans called the Ides of March 44 BCE has provided the template, and the sometimes awkward justification, for the killing of tyrants ever since.?   
? Mary Beard, _S P Q R_: A History of Ancient Rome (Norton/Liveright, 2015, p. 15) 
//  TYRANT : A absolute ruler unrestrained by law or constitution ; an usurper of sovereignty ; a ruler who exercises absolute power oppressively or brutally ; one resembling an oppressive ruler in the harsh use of authority or power.? ? Webster?s Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary (1984).  
	#	#	# 

From r-szoke at illinois.edu  Wed Mar 16 02:45:51 2022
From: r-szoke at illinois.edu (Szoke, Ron)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 02:45:51 +0000
Subject: [Peace-discuss] SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS
Message-ID: <CH0PR11MB5689956D9A177996976749228C119@CH0PR11MB5689.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

?Thus always to tyrants!? -- Brutus?  Ides [15th] of March, 44 BCE
   Sic semper tyrannis is a Latin phrase meaning "thus always to tyrants". It suggests that bad but just outcomes should or eventually will befall tyrants.   
   ?A descendant of Brutus was Senator Marcus Junius Brutus, who was present at the assassination of Julius Caesar on 15 March 44 BC.[1][2] While he is sometimes credited with originating the phrase, Plutarch suggests he either did not have a chance to say anything, or if he did, no one heard it:  thus done to death, the senators, although Brutus came forward as if to say something about what had been done, would not wait to hear him, but burst out of doors and fled, thus filling the people with confusion and helpless fear.[3]  The phrase has been invoked, in Europe and elsewhere, as an epithet about one allegedly abusing power, or as a rallying cry against abuse of power.? ? Wikipedia
//  ?The assassination of Julius Caesar on what the Romans called the Ides of March 44 BCE has provided the template, and the sometimes awkward justification, for the killing of tyrants ever since.?   
? Mary Beard, _S P Q R_: A History of Ancient Rome (Norton/Liveright, 2015, p. 15) 
//  TYRANT : A absolute ruler unrestrained by law or constitution ; an usurper of sovereignty ; a ruler who exercises absolute power oppressively or brutally ; one resembling an oppressive ruler in the harsh use of authority or power.? ? Webster?s Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary (1984).  
	#	#	# 

From karenaram at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 16 14:43:22 2022
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (karen aram)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 09:43:22 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] A very interesting conversation Rania & Prof.
 Massad as he delves into the origins of WW2 as it relates to today.
Message-ID: <CH0PR19MB53142171111C18B9D260FE83A3119@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0WQ64UD2Lg?vq=hd720

From moboct1 at aim.com  Wed Mar 16 16:49:41 2022
From: moboct1 at aim.com (Mildred O'brien)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 16:49:41 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Submitted letter to News Gazette
In-Reply-To: <741835643.2454235.1647292135257@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <741835643.2454235.1647292135257.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <741835643.2454235.1647292135257@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1902574626.202737.1647449381781@mail.yahoo.com>

Dear David:?
Glad to see you back in print (I hope) with a history lesson.? I meant to comment on your last NG letter a while ago but forgot to cut it out and now can't remember what it was about.? But I'm glad you made clear the one-sided US support of Ukraine position (which is almost sedition in this country to criticize, with?I suppose now after Zelensky's Congressional manifesto today will be enshrined in the annals of Americana.? I can't watch, listen to or read any public "news" on the matter (especially NPR before classical music program comes on in the morning) without my BP rising.? Allison Weir reports that even photos of Israeli destruction of Gaza and other Palestinian targets are being substituted as "action shots" of Russian attacks on Ukraine!
Now even Senator Durbin is acted in his public address as an "ex-pert" psychologist qualified to make a medical analysis of the mental condition on the "paranoid" madman Putin.??
"Our" U.N. Ambassador, Linda Thomas Greenfield said Russia was playing out a scenario put forth in the council last month by Secy State Blinkin [and Nod] that Vladimir Putin would "fabricate allegations about chemical or biological weapons [at least 30 labs] to justify its own violent attacks against the Ukrainian people." (Best to accuse your enemy of your own guilt before you're exposed).? Disclaimer added: "Ukraine does have a network of biological labs funded by the U.S--but are owned and operated by Ukraine (and by the U.S. Defense Threat Reduction Agency)...The labs are not secret," accusing Russia of "disinformation"--calling the skillet black!
Well so much.? I suppose "Uncle Joe" is satisfied to finally have his "bilateral" war (the only negative thing McConnell had to say was "Joe Biden pulled troops out of Afghanistan too soon."? War (in another part of the world will surely boost Biden's sagging poll numbers.??
On another front Biden has his political diversity base covered with BLM & other groups such as LGBT+++ representation, with the appointments of Admiral/Dr. (former Richard) Rachel Levine, MD Asst. HHS, and Samuel Brinton, B.S. Kansas State Nuclear Engineering & Vocal Music/MIT M.S. Nuclear Waste Management Engineering to "their" post as Asst. Deputy of Waste Management, LGBT+++ activist and Trevor Project and animal role model advocate.??"They" are in favor of passing regulations to allow the use of spent nuclear waste to energize 'advanced nuclear' projects [weapons??].? Well, that's another way to take care of our nuclear waste disposal dilemma (other than continue to pollute the Columbia River basin or outer space).? ? ?
Looks like Joe is a virtual shoo in--for as long as he wants to be POTUS!
Midge?
-----Original Message-----
From: David Green via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
To: Peace-discuss List <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Sent: Mon, Mar 14, 2022 4:09 pm
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Submitted letter to News Gazette


Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union (1991), the goal of the American ruling class has been to prevent any rapprochement between the European Union and Russia. Such a development would threaten European subordination to American economic and military hegemony, as well as facilitate the rise of China in a multipolar global context.

Thus, since the early 2000s, enormous pressure has been put on Ukraine to act as an impoverished, corrupt, and dependent extension of the US, EU, and NATO. This has been accompanied by Ukrainian oligarchical asset stripping, indebtedness and governmental austerity dictated by the International Monetary Fund, emigration/de-population, massive infusions of American weapons, and the rise of the neo-fascist, pro-American Azov battalion in Western Ukraine.

In 2014, Barack Obama promoted the Maidan coup in response to a neutral and fairly-elected (if corrupt) Ukrainian administration, respectful of the Russian-speaking Donbas (eastern) region. This coup, like so many ?color revolutions?, was subsumed by neoconservative U.S. State Department operatives (Victoria Nuland).

Vladimir Putin?s unremarkable redlines have been clear throughout regarding NATO membership, the militarization of Ukraine, and ongoing Ukrainian attacks in the Donbas, with 14,000 dead since 2014. Also clear have been Joe Biden?s efforts, as Vice President and President, to play a provocative, dangerous game of chicken, resulting in a predictable and violent outcome.
The American ruling class and its media apparatchiks will continue to turn the truth on its head, with the assistance of the academic class, including locally (Nicholas Grossman, Valerii Robinson). Their propaganda should be rejected.
David Green_______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
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From r-szoke at illinois.edu  Wed Mar 16 21:20:51 2022
From: r-szoke at illinois.edu (Szoke, Ron)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 21:20:51 +0000
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Ukraine : Parallels with Russian Missiles in Cuba ?
Message-ID: <CH0PR11MB56892601150895630ECCCE1A8C119@CH0PR11MB5689.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Malheur Enterprise [Oregon] 
Bentz compares Ukraine war to Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962

U.S. Rep. Cliff Bentz, R-Oregon, said developments in Ukraine show the importance of proper funding of U.S. military sources. He addressed the war in a speech on Monday, March 14, in Ontario.

By Pat Caldwell - The Enterprise
March 15, 2022 at 7:26am

U.S. Rep. Cliff Bentz, R-Oregon, spoke at the Ontario [Oregon] Area Chamber of Commerce luncheon Monday, March 14. (The Enterprise/PAT CALDWELL)

ONTARIO ? The Russian invasion of the Ukraine is an emergency on par with the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962, U.S. Rep. Cliff Bentz, R-Oregon, told the Ontario Area Chamber of Commerce luncheon Monday.

?It is a horribly difficult situation,? Bentz told the large crowd at the luncheon.

While Bentz said ?no one wants us to send soldiers to the Ukraine? the crisis showed that proper funding for the military is crucial.

   ? <continues> ?-

// Malheur County is one of the 36 counties in the U.S. state of Oregon. As of the 2010 census, the population was 31,313. Its county seat is Vale, and its largest city is Ontario. The county was named after the Malheur River, which runs through the county. The word "malheur" is French for misfortune or tragedy.  ? Wikipedia
===

From r-szoke at illinois.edu  Wed Mar 16 21:20:51 2022
From: r-szoke at illinois.edu (Szoke, Ron)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 21:20:51 +0000
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Ukraine : Parallels with Russian Missiles in Cuba ?
Message-ID: <CH0PR11MB56892601150895630ECCCE1A8C119@CH0PR11MB5689.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Malheur Enterprise [Oregon] 
Bentz compares Ukraine war to Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962

U.S. Rep. Cliff Bentz, R-Oregon, said developments in Ukraine show the importance of proper funding of U.S. military sources. He addressed the war in a speech on Monday, March 14, in Ontario.

By Pat Caldwell - The Enterprise
March 15, 2022 at 7:26am

U.S. Rep. Cliff Bentz, R-Oregon, spoke at the Ontario [Oregon] Area Chamber of Commerce luncheon Monday, March 14. (The Enterprise/PAT CALDWELL)

ONTARIO ? The Russian invasion of the Ukraine is an emergency on par with the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962, U.S. Rep. Cliff Bentz, R-Oregon, told the Ontario Area Chamber of Commerce luncheon Monday.

?It is a horribly difficult situation,? Bentz told the large crowd at the luncheon.

While Bentz said ?no one wants us to send soldiers to the Ukraine? the crisis showed that proper funding for the military is crucial.

   ? <continues> ?-

// Malheur County is one of the 36 counties in the U.S. state of Oregon. As of the 2010 census, the population was 31,313. Its county seat is Vale, and its largest city is Ontario. The county was named after the Malheur River, which runs through the county. The word "malheur" is French for misfortune or tragedy.  ? Wikipedia
===

From davidgreen50 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 16 22:42:43 2022
From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 17:42:43 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Valleri Robinson
Message-ID: <CAOiGAyGPH3A--ozHot3oFWpmTWCF0-hfuTRNBYs9fDFAd+6W2w@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/guest-commentary/guest-commentary-ukrainian-president-builds-global-solidarity-through-social-media/article_cf549679-9cd1-5ef0-8fea-5f0f519a4aac.html
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 17 12:15:18 2022
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (karen aram)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 07:15:18 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: David Green's excellent letter to the NG
References: <CH0PR19MB5314E75BB0524625538ABF7CA3129@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CH0PR19MB5314B57B46C381F36BFA7856A3129@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>

My copy and paste has messed it up a bit, but the basic info. is below. I?m still waiting to see Mort?s letter which has yet to appear.
> Playing chicken with Russia
> 
> "Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union (1991), the goal of the American ruling class has been to prevent any rapprochement between the European Union and Russia.
> 
> Such a development would threaten European subordination to American economic and military hegemony, as well as facilitate the rise of China in a multi-polar global context.
> 
> Thus, since the early 2000s, enormous pressure has been put on Ukraine to act as an impoverished, corrupt and dependent extension of the U.S., E.U. and NATO. This has been accompanied by the stripping of assets from Ukrainian oligarchs, indebtedness and governmental austerity dictated by the International Monetary Fund, emigration/de-population, massive infusions of American weapons, and the rise of hardcore neo-Nazi, pro-American battalions in western UkraineIn 2014, then-President Barack Obama promoted the Maidan coup in response to a neutral and fairly elected Ukrainian administration, respectful of the Russian-speaking Donbass region. The children of President Joe Biden wet their beaks in the aftermath of these imperialist tacticVladimir Putin?s unremarkable red lines have been clear throughout regarding NATO membership, the militarization of Ukraine and the ongoing Ukrainian attacks in the Donbass, with 14,000 dead since 2014. Also clear have been Biden?s efforts, as vice president and president, to play a dangerous game of chicken, resulting in a predictable and violent outcome.The war-loving American ruling class and its media apparatchiks will continue to turn the truth on its head, with the assistance of the professorial class, including locally. Decent citizens should put it back on its feet."


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From fboyle at illinois.edu  Thu Mar 17 12:39:07 2022
From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:39:07 +0000
Subject: [Peace-discuss] David Green's excellent letter to the NG
In-Reply-To: <CH0PR19MB5314B57B46C381F36BFA7856A3129@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CH0PR19MB5314E75BB0524625538ABF7CA3129@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR19MB5314B57B46C381F36BFA7856A3129@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CH0PR11MB5313D354DF9759D8C892F74FA0129@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Very powerful David! Congrats! Fab.

Francis A. Boyle
Law Building
504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
Champaign IL 61820 USA
Phone: 217-333-7954
Fax: 217-244-1478
(personal comments only)


From: karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2022 7:15 AM
To: Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu>; Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu>; David Johnson <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net>; David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com>; C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com>
Cc: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
Subject: Fwd: David Green's excellent letter to the NG

My copy and paste has messed it up a bit, but the basic info. is below. I?m still waiting to see Mort?s letter which has yet to appear.
Playing chicken with Russia
"Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union (1991), the goal of the American ruling class has been to prevent any rapprochement between the European Union and Russia.
Such a development would threaten European subordination to American economic and military hegemony, as well as facilitate the rise of China in a multi-polar global context.
Thus, since the early 2000s, enormous pressure has been put on Ukraine to act as an impoverished, corrupt and dependent extension of the U.S., E.U. and NATO. This has been accompanied by the stripping of assets from Ukrainian oligarchs, indebtedness and governmental austerity dictated by the International Monetary Fund, emigration/de-population, massive infusions of American weapons, and the rise of hardcore neo-Nazi, pro-American battalions in western UkraineIn 2014, then-President Barack Obama promoted the Maidan coup in response to a neutral and fairly elected Ukrainian administration, respectful of the Russian-speaking Donbass region. The children of President Joe Biden wet their beaks in the aftermath of these imperialist tacticVladimir Putin?s unremarkable red lines have been clear throughout regarding NATO membership, the militarization of Ukraine and the ongoing Ukrainian attacks in the Donbass, with 14,000 dead since 2014. Also clear have been Biden?s efforts, as vice president and president, to play a dangerous game of chicken, resulting in a predictable and violent outcome.The war-loving American ruling class and its media apparatchiks will continue to turn the truth on its head, with the assistance of the professorial class, including locally. Decent citizens should put it back on its feet."


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From fboyle at illinois.edu  Thu Mar 17 12:47:28 2022
From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:47:28 +0000
Subject: [Peace-discuss] David Green's excellent letter to the NG
In-Reply-To: <CH0PR11MB5313D354DF9759D8C892F74FA0129@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CH0PR19MB5314E75BB0524625538ABF7CA3129@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR19MB5314B57B46C381F36BFA7856A3129@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR11MB5313D354DF9759D8C892F74FA0129@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CH0PR11MB5313A4A797BF37553623F3D7A0129@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

For what it is worth, and I think I told you this before, but it gives you an idea of what we are dealing with here on Campus, after the Maidan coup d?etat I gave an interview to Voice of Russia condemning it as a Brown Shirt Coup d?etat organized  along the lines of a classic CIA sponsored Coup d?etat. See Luttwak.  I then sent it to the Director of the Russian and East European Center here on campus,where I have been an Associate since shortly after I came here in 1978. He told me that he never wanted to receive an email from me again. Fab.

Francis A. Boyle
Law Building
504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
Champaign IL 61820 USA
Phone: 217-333-7954
Fax: 217-244-1478
(personal comments only)


From: Boyle, Francis A
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2022 7:39 AM
To: karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com>; Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu>; David Johnson <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net>; David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com>; C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com>
Cc: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
Subject: RE: David Green's excellent letter to the NG

Very powerful David! Congrats! Fab.

Francis A. Boyle
Law Building
504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
Champaign IL 61820 USA
Phone: 217-333-7954
Fax: 217-244-1478
(personal comments only)


From: karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com<mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com>>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2022 7:15 AM
To: Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu<mailto:fboyle at illinois.edu>>; Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu<mailto:brussel at illinois.edu>>; David Johnson <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net<mailto:davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net>>; David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com<mailto:davidgreen50 at gmail.com>>; C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com<mailto:carl at newsfromneptune.com>>
Cc: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net<mailto:peace-discuss at anti-war.net>>
Subject: Fwd: David Green's excellent letter to the NG

My copy and paste has messed it up a bit, but the basic info. is below. I?m still waiting to see Mort?s letter which has yet to appear.
Playing chicken with Russia
"Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union (1991), the goal of the American ruling class has been to prevent any rapprochement between the European Union and Russia.
Such a development would threaten European subordination to American economic and military hegemony, as well as facilitate the rise of China in a multi-polar global context.
Thus, since the early 2000s, enormous pressure has been put on Ukraine to act as an impoverished, corrupt and dependent extension of the U.S., E.U. and NATO. This has been accompanied by the stripping of assets from Ukrainian oligarchs, indebtedness and governmental austerity dictated by the International Monetary Fund, emigration/de-population, massive infusions of American weapons, and the rise of hardcore neo-Nazi, pro-American battalions in western UkraineIn 2014, then-President Barack Obama promoted the Maidan coup in response to a neutral and fairly elected Ukrainian administration, respectful of the Russian-speaking Donbass region. The children of President Joe Biden wet their beaks in the aftermath of these imperialist tacticVladimir Putin?s unremarkable red lines have been clear throughout regarding NATO membership, the militarization of Ukraine and the ongoing Ukrainian attacks in the Donbass, with 14,000 dead since 2014. Also clear have been Biden?s efforts, as vice president and president, to play a dangerous game of chicken, resulting in a predictable and violent outcome.The war-loving American ruling class and its media apparatchiks will continue to turn the truth on its head, with the assistance of the professorial class, including locally. Decent citizens should put it back on its feet."


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From fboyle at illinois.edu  Thu Mar 17 14:02:21 2022
From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 14:02:21 +0000
Subject: [Peace-discuss] David Green's excellent letter to the NG
In-Reply-To: <CH0PR11MB5313A4A797BF37553623F3D7A0129@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CH0PR19MB5314E75BB0524625538ABF7CA3129@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR19MB5314B57B46C381F36BFA7856A3129@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR11MB5313D354DF9759D8C892F74FA0129@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR11MB5313A4A797BF37553623F3D7A0129@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CH0PR11MB53132EC40BC10EBD717A766FA0129@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Here is that interview from the Voice of Russia that I sent to the Director of our  Russian and East European Center, prompting him to tell me that he never wanted to receive another email from me again. It?s been a Deafening Silence since then. fab.
LEAD
> It is a fact that since 9-11-2001, the US Government has been in the business of destroying countries and using NATO as it principle instrument. That was stated more than a decade ago by then US Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz and later by General Wesley Clark. The Pentagon drew up a list of 7 states that were to be destroyed: Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Syria and they have systematically proceeded to destroy all of the Countries on the list. The strategy in Ukraine is the same, US/NATO/EU are promoting the destabilization and the breakup of Ukraine in order to achieve the NATO goal of moving into Ukrainian territory closer to Russia. Harvard Professor Francis Boyle, a US based Russian expert who was invited to the Soviet Union to lecture spoke on these issues and more in an interview with the Voice of Russia. While Russia was distracted into believing that the US wanted a reset US foreign policy was being planned and dictated by rabid Russia haters like Zbignew Brzezinski and Richard Pipes. Brzezinski wants to breakup Russia into approximately 68 parts and has placed his prot?g?s in key US foreign policy posts. According to Mr. Boyle Brezezinski has staffed the Obama administration with his acolytes and prot?g?es, including the US Ambassador to Russia Michael McFaul, a specialist in color revolutions. At the end of the day the US plan is to see the breakup of the Russian Federation, that is the goal.
> HEADLINE
> Ukraine part of US/NATO/EU plan to break up Russia ? Prof Francis
> Boyle
>
> This is John Robles, you are listening to an interview with Professor
> Francis Boyle. He is a Professor in International Law at the
> University of Illinois College of Law in Champaign, Illinois. This is
> part 1 of a longer interview. You can find the rest of this interview
> on our website at voiceofrussia.com
> Robles: Hello Sir! How are you this evening?
> Boyle: Very fine. Thanks for having me on, John, and my best to your listening audience.
> Robles: Thank you Sir! And thanks for agreeing to speak with us. News of the day is Ukraine. Now you?ve recently made some statements and done some work regarding Syria. I?d like to ask for your correlations between what is going on right now in Syria and what is going on right now in Ukraine. Do you see a connection? Some people are saying that Ukraine, the push there was because the US was not allowed to carry out military operations against Syria. Do you see a relationship between them?
> Boyle: Well I wouldn?t say that is ?necessarily? the reason. As we know, Ukraine has for a long time been a strategic objective of the United States and trying to get Ukraine into NATO. And this EU plan was simply a first step in that direction. The EU wasn?t really offering anything to Ukraine. But it was very clear, if they could move Ukraine closer to the EU, that would be a step closer to NATO. In fact, I regret to say over the years, even though I have EU citizenship and carry an EU passport, the EU now has become nothing but an anteroom to NATO.
> So, I think this really has to be understood in terms of the gradual movement of NATO further to the east in violation of the pledge that George Bush Senior and Jim Baker gave to then President Gorbachev that if he agreed to the reunification of Germany, NATO would move no farther east, towards Russia?s boundaries.
> Robles: Well, we?ve seen those promises, similar promises were made to
> President Gorbachev ? the first and last President of the Soviet Union
> ? those were also ignored. And regarding ?
> Boyle: The problem was ? he never got them in writing.
> Robles: That?s exactly what I was going to say.
> Boyle: That is incredibly naive on his part not to get them in writing. And I would point out, right now the United States is trying to do the exact same thing on the deployment of BMDs (ballistic missile defense) into Europe and around the borders of Russia saying ?you have to accept our assurances, but we are not going to give you anything in writing.?
> You know, it is preposterous. In fact, we had something in writing and that was the Anti-ballistic Missile System Treaty of 1972 that prevented all of this. And then Bush Junior pulled out of that treaty. So, as it stands now, really anything goes, these verbal assurances mean nothing.
> Robles: Getting away a little bit from the ABM system now, you mentioned NATO and Ukraine; there is a military objective, if you could tell us about that? And is there a similar military objective for Syria? Or what is the objective of the US Government in Syria?
> Boyle: Since 9/11 2001, as publicly admitted by then Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, the United States Government would be getting into the business of destroying states. And that was later confirmed by General Wesley Clark, as you know in his memoirs, his meeting there at the Pentagon where they had the list of seven states they were going to proceed to take over.
> Afghanistan was first, Iraq was second, Sudan was on the list, Libya was on the list and Syria was on the list, Iran was on the list. So, they are proceeding systematically down that list of destroying states. Syria is now near the top, Iran might be next. And it also appears now the same strategy is being applied to Ukraine to promote the crackup of Ukraine between east and west and, I would hate to say it, the dissolution of Ukraine as a state.
> Robles: Can you repeat that quote again? He said?
> Boyle: Yes Wolfowitz said? I have the citation in my book ?The Criminality of Nuclear Deterrence?, where Wolfowitz said: ?We are going to get into the business of destroying states?. And then, soon thereafter General Wesley Clark (head of NATO) was in the Pentagon and can confirm they drew up a list of seven states that they were systematically going to go after.
> So, that?s really, the objective here of Syria, against Syria, is as they did to Libya: to crackup Syria as a state into its constituent, religious and ethnic units not only for the United States but also for the benefit of Israel.
> As you know, Israel has been a long time opponent to Syria. They headed a plan there, the Yi Nolan Plan to crackup surrounding states in order to better manage them and keep them under control. So, here you see a congruence of interests certainly between the United States and Israel.
> And I regret to say it, but pretty much they have cracked up Syria in its constituent units, as they had done to Iraq. We now have basically three mini states in Iraq. The same has been done to Afghanistan and also Libya, where you have, you know it is hard to say there is a meaningful state there anymore. I have a new book out called ?Destroying Libya and World Order? where I have all these citations in there and an analysis. And then, I tried to extend this to Syria near the end of the book.
> And it does appear we are seeing a similar pattern of behavior here on Ukraine: to destabilize Ukraine, promote a crack up, some type of civil war or who knows what. And I guess the theory is, well if NATO-EU can get western Ukraine ? fine! ? they can extend the borders of NATO, the EU that far.
> So, it is a very dangerous situation, because, as you know, Ukraine is of utmost strategic significance to Russia. And second, Russia believes that Ukraine is the cradle of its civilization.
> Robles: Well it is, that?s not a belief. Ukraine is the mother of Rus.
> Boyle: I?ve been to Ukraine and I?ve been to where Nestor wrote his chronicles, and I have studied Russian and Ukrainian history, sure, at Harvard. And I went through the same PhD program at Harvard that produced Zbigniew Brzezinski before me and Richard Pipes, both of whom were, are ardent Russia haters, there is no question at all about it. And that is really part of the problem here in the United States, when it comes to Russian studies, that so much of it is biased against Russia inherently.
> Robles: Why is that, please, if you could? You?ve been through the system, you know the system. Why does the US hate Russia so much? Why?
> Boyle: Well I spent ten years at the University of Chicago and Harvard Law School studying Russian history, Russian literature, Soviet politics, Russian politics. Indeed I even offered Soviet politics and Russian history on my PhD General Exams at Harvard, which qualified me to teach both those subjects to undergraduates at Harvard. But I never learned the language because that was not what I was intending to do.
> And all those years, ten years of studying, I only had two professors who I thought were fair, reasonable and balanced when it came to Russia and the Soviet Union. And understand Harvard and Chicago are two of the leading centers in the United States for training Russian experts. They train professors and experts, government officials and things of that nature.
> Robles: Diplomats?
> Boyle: So, and again, you had Brzezinski, I went through the same PhD program that produced Brzezinski and Kissinger. You know Brzezinski is an expatriate Pole who hates the Russians with a passion.
> Robles: Oh God yes, yeah?
> Boyle: Indeed Brzezinski wants to crackup Russia into its constituent units.
> Robles: Right, I think it was 68 autonomous regions, if that?s what it was.
> Boyle: It?s more dangerous than that! In that Obama?s mentor at Columbia was Brzezinski. And Brzezinski ran the foreign affairs apparatus for Obama?s campaign and he has staffed the Obama administration with his acolytes and prot?g?s, like McFaul ? the recently resigning ambassador.
> Robles: I?m sorry, can you expand a little bit on McFaul? You said he is one of Brzezinski?s prot?g?.
> Boyle: Yes, he is from the Hoover Institute at Stanford, which is a neo-conservative operation out there, and Brzezinski is one of these people.
> Robles: Was McFaul chosen by Brzezinski?
> Boyle: I think all the high-level appointments in the Obama administration in foreign affairs have been run by Brzezinski. That is my personal feeling looking at it. Yes, Brzezinski decided not to take a position himself, but all these people that have surrounded Obama, not just on Russia, but other areas, are Brzezinski prot?g?s and indeed that goes back in the Democratic Party I think since Carter came to power and Brzezinski was his National Security Advisor. You know, he was the one who started the Afghan Mujahidin war against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan and bragged about it.
> So, within the Democratic Party Brzezinski is considered to be their foreign affairs guru and he was Obama?s mentor at Columbia, and it is a matter of public record that Brzezinski was running the foreign affairs apparatus for the Obama campaign.
> Robles: Wow!
> Boyle: So, I certainly believe he helped staff this administration on foreign affairs matters.
> Robles: People are thinking about a reset and trying to improve relations. And I don?t think anyone knew that it was all Brzezinski, because people knew who Brzezinski was a long time ago.
> Boyle: Right. Well, this I think is part of their plan to see the crackup of the Russian Federation, at the end of the day. Sure, that?s I think what his objective is.
> You know, if you want to get credentialed as an expert on Russia, you have to go to somewhere like Columbia or Harvard, or Chicago and get your Master?s degree or PhD from people like that. At Harvard they also had Richard Pipes, he was the Reagan?s top guru on the Soviet Union, The Committee on the Present Danger.
> I had Pipes for imperial Russian history, again, another expatriate Pole who hates the Russians with passion. Pipes was so bad in his course on Imperial Russian history, he used to break into sweat when he was lecturing on Peter the Great or Catherine the Great and had to take a handkerchief out of his pocket and wipe his brow. So, he is another fanatic against the Russians, only prominent in the Republican Party.
> So, we don?t really have ? you know Professor Cohen at NYU I think is fair, balanced and reasonable when it comes to Russia. He just wrote something in The Nation on Ukraine. And I think he wrote a very good book on Russia. But you know, he is really the exception to a pretty abysmal rule here in the United States when it comes to training and credentialing what were Soviet and now Russian experts.
> Robles: So, why are you fair-minded Sir?
> Boyle: I try to come at Russia and the Soviet Union with an open mind. I lived through the Cuban missile crisis and I concluded that probably the most important issue of my time would be to learn to understand Russia across the board and the Soviet Union. So, that?s why I spent the ten years studying at the University of Chicago and Harvard and getting formally credentialed in these areas.
> And I have to say I was pretty appalled. I did have Professor Edward Keenan at Harvard who was my teacher, mentor and friend. And he was Director of the Russian Research Center. And he is very fair, balanced and reasonable, and Professor Harold Berman at Harvard Law School, again, very fair, balanced and reasonable. But that was pretty much about it.
> I was invited over twice by the Soviet Government to lecture, once around the country in 1986 and then in 1989. And I guess they just figured I was a reasonable American to talk to. And I was open, I met with people and lectured and I seemed to get along with everyone. We didn?t necessarily agree about everything, but at least we could try to talk it out.
> But that?s not what we are seeing now. That?s for sure! As we know from the Nuland tape here with the Ambassador in Kiev, she admits they had spent at least $5 million right away now trying to promote opposition to the democratically elected government in Ukraine. Whatever you think of Yanukovych, he is democratically elected and so far I think he?s shown a remarkable restraint.
> You were listening to an interview with Professor Francis Boyle. He is
> a Professor in International Law at the University of Illinois College
> of Law. That was part 1 of a longer interview. You can find the rest
> of this interview on our website at voiceofrussia.com
>
>
>
>


Francis A. Boyle
Law Building
504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
Champaign IL 61820 USA
Phone: 217-333-7954
Fax: 217-244-1478
(personal comments only)


From: Boyle, Francis A
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2022 7:47 AM
To: karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com>; Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu>; David Johnson <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net>; David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com>; C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com>
Cc: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
Subject: RE: David Green's excellent letter to the NG

For what it is worth, and I think I told you this before, but it gives you an idea of what we are dealing with here on Campus, after the Maidan coup d?etat I gave an interview to Voice of Russia condemning it as a Brown Shirt Coup d?etat organized  along the lines of a classic CIA sponsored Coup d?etat. See Luttwak.  I then sent it to the Director of the Russian and East European Center here on campus,where I have been an Associate since shortly after I came here in 1978. He told me that he never wanted to receive an email from me again. Fab.

Francis A. Boyle
Law Building
504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
Champaign IL 61820 USA
Phone: 217-333-7954
Fax: 217-244-1478
(personal comments only)


From: Boyle, Francis A
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2022 7:39 AM
To: karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com<mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com>>; Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu<mailto:brussel at illinois.edu>>; David Johnson <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net<mailto:davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net>>; David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com<mailto:davidgreen50 at gmail.com>>; C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com<mailto:carl at newsfromneptune.com>>
Cc: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net<mailto:peace-discuss at anti-war.net>>
Subject: RE: David Green's excellent letter to the NG

Very powerful David! Congrats! Fab.

Francis A. Boyle
Law Building
504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
Champaign IL 61820 USA
Phone: 217-333-7954
Fax: 217-244-1478
(personal comments only)


From: karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com<mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com>>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2022 7:15 AM
To: Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu<mailto:fboyle at illinois.edu>>; Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu<mailto:brussel at illinois.edu>>; David Johnson <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net<mailto:davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net>>; David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com<mailto:davidgreen50 at gmail.com>>; C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com<mailto:carl at newsfromneptune.com>>
Cc: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net<mailto:peace-discuss at anti-war.net>>
Subject: Fwd: David Green's excellent letter to the NG

My copy and paste has messed it up a bit, but the basic info. is below. I?m still waiting to see Mort?s letter which has yet to appear.
Playing chicken with Russia
"Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union (1991), the goal of the American ruling class has been to prevent any rapprochement between the European Union and Russia.
Such a development would threaten European subordination to American economic and military hegemony, as well as facilitate the rise of China in a multi-polar global context.
Thus, since the early 2000s, enormous pressure has been put on Ukraine to act as an impoverished, corrupt and dependent extension of the U.S., E.U. and NATO. This has been accompanied by the stripping of assets from Ukrainian oligarchs, indebtedness and governmental austerity dictated by the International Monetary Fund, emigration/de-population, massive infusions of American weapons, and the rise of hardcore neo-Nazi, pro-American battalions in western UkraineIn 2014, then-President Barack Obama promoted the Maidan coup in response to a neutral and fairly elected Ukrainian administration, respectful of the Russian-speaking Donbass region. The children of President Joe Biden wet their beaks in the aftermath of these imperialist tacticVladimir Putin?s unremarkable red lines have been clear throughout regarding NATO membership, the militarization of Ukraine and the ongoing Ukrainian attacks in the Donbass, with 14,000 dead since 2014. Also clear have been Biden?s efforts, as vice president and president, to play a dangerous game of chicken, resulting in a predictable and violent outcome.The war-loving American ruling class and its media apparatchiks will continue to turn the truth on its head, with the assistance of the professorial class, including locally. Decent citizens should put it back on its feet."


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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 17 14:34:08 2022
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (karen aram)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 09:34:08 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] David Green's excellent letter to the NG
In-Reply-To: <CH0PR11MB5313A4A797BF37553623F3D7A0129@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CH0PR19MB5314E75BB0524625538ABF7CA3129@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR19MB5314B57B46C381F36BFA7856A3129@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR11MB5313D354DF9759D8C892F74FA0129@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR11MB5313A4A797BF37553623F3D7A0129@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CH0PR19MB5314F93295F8FA23FA19476FA3129@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>

Francis

Carl and I attended a discussion at the East European Center on Campus, about that time. We were extremely disappointed, and if I remember correctly Carl said later that they were funded by the USG. 

PS I don?t know if the Peace Discuss email is accurate or will see my postings as I unsubscribed. 



> On Mar 17, 2022, at 7:47 AM, Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu> wrote:
> 
> For what it is worth, and I think I told you this before, but it gives you an idea of what we are dealing with here on Campus, after the Maidan coup d?etat I gave an interview to Voice of Russia condemning it as a Brown Shirt Coup d?etat organized  along the lines of a classic CIA sponsored Coup d?etat. See Luttwak.  I then sent it to the Director of the Russian and East European Center here on campus,where I have been an Associate since shortly after I came here in 1978. He told me that he never wanted to receive an email from me again. Fab.
>  
> Francis A. Boyle
> Law Building
> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
> Champaign IL 61820 USA
> Phone: 217-333-7954
> Fax: 217-244-1478
> (personal comments only)
>  
>  
> From: Boyle, Francis A 
> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2022 7:39 AM
> To: karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com <mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com>>; Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu <mailto:brussel at illinois.edu>>; David Johnson <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net <mailto:davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net>>; David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com <mailto:davidgreen50 at gmail.com>>; C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com <mailto:carl at newsfromneptune.com>>
> Cc: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net <mailto:peace-discuss at anti-war.net>>
> Subject: RE: David Green's excellent letter to the NG
>  
> Very powerful David! Congrats! Fab.
>  
> Francis A. Boyle
> Law Building
> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
> Champaign IL 61820 USA
> Phone: 217-333-7954
> Fax: 217-244-1478
> (personal comments only)
>  
>  
> From: karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com <mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com>> 
> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2022 7:15 AM
> To: Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu <mailto:fboyle at illinois.edu>>; Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu <mailto:brussel at illinois.edu>>; David Johnson <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net <mailto:davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net>>; David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com <mailto:davidgreen50 at gmail.com>>; C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com <mailto:carl at newsfromneptune.com>>
> Cc: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net <mailto:peace-discuss at anti-war.net>>
> Subject: Fwd: David Green's excellent letter to the NG
>  
> My copy and paste has messed it up a bit, but the basic info. is below. I?m still waiting to see Mort?s letter which has yet to appear.
> Playing chicken with Russia
> "Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union (1991), the goal of the American ruling class has been to prevent any rapprochement between the European Union and Russia.
> Such a development would threaten European subordination to American economic and military hegemony, as well as facilitate the rise of China in a multi-polar global context.
> Thus, since the early 2000s, enormous pressure has been put on Ukraine to act as an impoverished, corrupt and dependent extension of the U.S., E.U. and NATO. This has been accompanied by the stripping of assets from Ukrainian oligarchs, indebtedness and governmental austerity dictated by the International Monetary Fund, emigration/de-population, massive infusions of American weapons, and the rise of hardcore neo-Nazi, pro-American battalions in western UkraineIn 2014, then-President Barack Obama promoted the Maidan coup in response to a neutral and fairly elected Ukrainian administration, respectful of the Russian-speaking Donbass region. The children of President Joe Biden wet their beaks in the aftermath of these imperialist tacticVladimir Putin?s unremarkable red lines have been clear throughout regarding NATO membership, the militarization of Ukraine and the ongoing Ukrainian attacks in the Donbass, with 14,000 dead since 2014. Also clear have been Biden?s efforts, as vice president and president, to play a dangerous game of chicken, resulting in a predictable and violent outcome.The war-loving American ruling class and its media apparatchiks will continue to turn the truth on its head, with the assistance of the professorial class, including locally. Decent citizens should put it back on its feet."

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From fboyle at illinois.edu  Thu Mar 17 14:42:26 2022
From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 14:42:26 +0000
Subject: [Peace-discuss] David Green's excellent letter to the NG
In-Reply-To: <CH0PR19MB5314F93295F8FA23FA19476FA3129@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CH0PR19MB5314E75BB0524625538ABF7CA3129@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR19MB5314B57B46C381F36BFA7856A3129@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR11MB5313D354DF9759D8C892F74FA0129@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR11MB5313A4A797BF37553623F3D7A0129@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR19MB5314F93295F8FA23FA19476FA3129@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CH0PR11MB531390C55203DBD9446AEBE4A0129@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

  *   Does not surprise me. the Campus generally speaking is pro-Ukraine and anti-Russian?just like Harvard. fab

Francis A. Boyle
Law Building
504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
Champaign IL 61820 USA
Phone: 217-333-7954
Fax: 217-244-1478
(personal comments only)


From: karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2022 9:34 AM
To: Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu>
Cc: Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu>; David Johnson <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net>; David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com>; C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com>; Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
Subject: Re: David Green's excellent letter to the NG

Francis

Carl and I attended a discussion at the East European Center on Campus, about that time. We were extremely disappointed, and if I remember correctly Carl said later that they were funded by the USG.

PS I don?t know if the Peace Discuss email is accurate or will see my postings as I unsubscribed.



On Mar 17, 2022, at 7:47 AM, Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu<mailto:fboyle at illinois.edu>> wrote:

For what it is worth, and I think I told you this before, but it gives you an idea of what we are dealing with here on Campus, after the Maidan coup d?etat I gave an interview to Voice of Russia condemning it as a Brown Shirt Coup d?etat organized  along the lines of a classic CIA sponsored Coup d?etat. See Luttwak.  I then sent it to the Director of the Russian and East European Center here on campus,where I have been an Associate since shortly after I came here in 1978. He told me that he never wanted to receive an email from me again. Fab.

Francis A. Boyle
Law Building
504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
Champaign IL 61820 USA
Phone: 217-333-7954
Fax: 217-244-1478
(personal comments only)


From: Boyle, Francis A
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2022 7:39 AM
To: karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com<mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com>>; Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu<mailto:brussel at illinois.edu>>; David Johnson <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net<mailto:davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net>>; David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com<mailto:davidgreen50 at gmail.com>>; C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com<mailto:carl at newsfromneptune.com>>
Cc: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net<mailto:peace-discuss at anti-war.net>>
Subject: RE: David Green's excellent letter to the NG

Very powerful David! Congrats! Fab.

Francis A. Boyle
Law Building
504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
Champaign IL 61820 USA
Phone: 217-333-7954
Fax: 217-244-1478
(personal comments only)


From: karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com<mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com>>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2022 7:15 AM
To: Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu<mailto:fboyle at illinois.edu>>; Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu<mailto:brussel at illinois.edu>>; David Johnson <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net<mailto:davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net>>; David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com<mailto:davidgreen50 at gmail.com>>; C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com<mailto:carl at newsfromneptune.com>>
Cc: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net<mailto:peace-discuss at anti-war.net>>
Subject: Fwd: David Green's excellent letter to the NG

My copy and paste has messed it up a bit, but the basic info. is below. I?m still waiting to see Mort?s letter which has yet to appear.
Playing chicken with Russia
"Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union (1991), the goal of the American ruling class has been to prevent any rapprochement between the European Union and Russia.
Such a development would threaten European subordination to American economic and military hegemony, as well as facilitate the rise of China in a multi-polar global context.
Thus, since the early 2000s, enormous pressure has been put on Ukraine to act as an impoverished, corrupt and dependent extension of the U.S., E.U. and NATO. This has been accompanied by the stripping of assets from Ukrainian oligarchs, indebtedness and governmental austerity dictated by the International Monetary Fund, emigration/de-population, massive infusions of American weapons, and the rise of hardcore neo-Nazi, pro-American battalions in western UkraineIn 2014, then-President Barack Obama promoted the Maidan coup in response to a neutral and fairly elected Ukrainian administration, respectful of the Russian-speaking Donbass region. The children of President Joe Biden wet their beaks in the aftermath of these imperialist tacticVladimir Putin?s unremarkable red lines have been clear throughout regarding NATO membership, the militarization of Ukraine and the ongoing Ukrainian attacks in the Donbass, with 14,000 dead since 2014. Also clear have been Biden?s efforts, as vice president and president, to play a dangerous game of chicken, resulting in a predictable and violent outcome.The war-loving American ruling class and its media apparatchiks will continue to turn the truth on its head, with the assistance of the professorial class, including locally. Decent citizens should put it back on its feet."

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From fboyle at illinois.edu  Thu Mar 17 15:15:51 2022
From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 15:15:51 +0000
Subject: [Peace-discuss] David Green's excellent letter to the NG
In-Reply-To: <CH0PR11MB531390C55203DBD9446AEBE4A0129@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CH0PR19MB5314E75BB0524625538ABF7CA3129@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR19MB5314B57B46C381F36BFA7856A3129@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR11MB5313D354DF9759D8C892F74FA0129@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR11MB5313A4A797BF37553623F3D7A0129@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR19MB5314F93295F8FA23FA19476FA3129@CH0PR19MB5314.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH0PR11MB531390C55203DBD9446AEBE4A0129@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CH0PR11MB5313AACE87C5296D1B1BC433A0129@CH0PR11MB5313.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

  *   Just like both UIUC and Harvard are pro-Israel and anti-Palestine. fab.

Francis A. Boyle
Law Building
504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
Champaign IL 61820 USA
Phone: 217-333-7954
Fax: 217-244-1478
(personal comments only)


From: Boyle, Francis A
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2022 9:42 AM
To: karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com>
Cc: Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu>; David Johnson <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net>; David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com>; C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com>; Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
Subject: RE: David Green's excellent letter to the NG


  *   Does not surprise me. the Campus generally speaking is pro-Ukraine and anti-Russian?just like Harvard. fab

Francis A. Boyle
Law Building
504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
Champaign IL 61820 USA
Phone: 217-333-7954
Fax: 217-244-1478
(personal comments only)


From: karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com<mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com>>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2022 9:34 AM
To: Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu<mailto:fboyle at illinois.edu>>
Cc: Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu<mailto:brussel at illinois.edu>>; David Johnson <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net<mailto:davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net>>; David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com<mailto:davidgreen50 at gmail.com>>; C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com<mailto:carl at newsfromneptune.com>>; Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net<mailto:peace-discuss at anti-war.net>>
Subject: Re: David Green's excellent letter to the NG

Francis

Carl and I attended a discussion at the East European Center on Campus, about that time. We were extremely disappointed, and if I remember correctly Carl said later that they were funded by the USG.

PS I don?t know if the Peace Discuss email is accurate or will see my postings as I unsubscribed.



On Mar 17, 2022, at 7:47 AM, Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu<mailto:fboyle at illinois.edu>> wrote:

For what it is worth, and I think I told you this before, but it gives you an idea of what we are dealing with here on Campus, after the Maidan coup d?etat I gave an interview to Voice of Russia condemning it as a Brown Shirt Coup d?etat organized  along the lines of a classic CIA sponsored Coup d?etat. See Luttwak.  I then sent it to the Director of the Russian and East European Center here on campus,where I have been an Associate since shortly after I came here in 1978. He told me that he never wanted to receive an email from me again. Fab.

Francis A. Boyle
Law Building
504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
Champaign IL 61820 USA
Phone: 217-333-7954
Fax: 217-244-1478
(personal comments only)


From: Boyle, Francis A
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2022 7:39 AM
To: karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com<mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com>>; Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu<mailto:brussel at illinois.edu>>; David Johnson <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net<mailto:davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net>>; David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com<mailto:davidgreen50 at gmail.com>>; C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com<mailto:carl at newsfromneptune.com>>
Cc: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net<mailto:peace-discuss at anti-war.net>>
Subject: RE: David Green's excellent letter to the NG

Very powerful David! Congrats! Fab.

Francis A. Boyle
Law Building
504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
Champaign IL 61820 USA
Phone: 217-333-7954
Fax: 217-244-1478
(personal comments only)


From: karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com<mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com>>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2022 7:15 AM
To: Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu<mailto:fboyle at illinois.edu>>; Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu<mailto:brussel at illinois.edu>>; David Johnson <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net<mailto:davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net>>; David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com<mailto:davidgreen50 at gmail.com>>; C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com<mailto:carl at newsfromneptune.com>>
Cc: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net<mailto:peace-discuss at anti-war.net>>
Subject: Fwd: David Green's excellent letter to the NG

My copy and paste has messed it up a bit, but the basic info. is below. I?m still waiting to see Mort?s letter which has yet to appear.
Playing chicken with Russia
"Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union (1991), the goal of the American ruling class has been to prevent any rapprochement between the European Union and Russia.
Such a development would threaten European subordination to American economic and military hegemony, as well as facilitate the rise of China in a multi-polar global context.
Thus, since the early 2000s, enormous pressure has been put on Ukraine to act as an impoverished, corrupt and dependent extension of the U.S., E.U. and NATO. This has been accompanied by the stripping of assets from Ukrainian oligarchs, indebtedness and governmental austerity dictated by the International Monetary Fund, emigration/de-population, massive infusions of American weapons, and the rise of hardcore neo-Nazi, pro-American battalions in western UkraineIn 2014, then-President Barack Obama promoted the Maidan coup in response to a neutral and fairly elected Ukrainian administration, respectful of the Russian-speaking Donbass region. The children of President Joe Biden wet their beaks in the aftermath of these imperialist tacticVladimir Putin?s unremarkable red lines have been clear throughout regarding NATO membership, the militarization of Ukraine and the ongoing Ukrainian attacks in the Donbass, with 14,000 dead since 2014. Also clear have been Biden?s efforts, as vice president and president, to play a dangerous game of chicken, resulting in a predictable and violent outcome.The war-loving American ruling class and its media apparatchiks will continue to turn the truth on its head, with the assistance of the professorial class, including locally. Decent citizens should put it back on its feet."

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From jbn at forestfield.org  Fri Mar 18 01:14:34 2022
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 20:14:34 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Greenwald: "The NYT Now Admits the Biden Laptop --
 Falsely Called "Russian Disinformation" -- is Authentic"
Message-ID: <fe6c2108-9a9d-acd3-953c-8bbc991dc8e8@forestfield.org>

The NYT supports every US war (Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Venezuela, the 
list goes on). The NYT lies constantly and on issues of life and death importance. 
And the NYT supports coordinated censorship campaigns (including this conspiracy to 
not report important things in a timely manner).

Glenn Greenwald (whose work is very much worth reading/watching) goes into detail on 
the latest on this in 
https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-nyt-now-admits-the-biden-laptop

Greenwald's Rumble home (videos)
https://rumble.com/c/GGreenwald

Greenwald's YouTube channel (videos) for as long as YT lets him publish
https://youtube.com/channel/UChzVhAwzGR7hV-4O8ZmBLHg/videos

If you think I'm kidding about YouTube, keep in mind that Google (which owns YouTube) 
is one of multiple tech companies who are censoring anyone who repeats coverage that 
is not in keeping with the current American establishment narrative which is 
remarkably censorious:

- On March 8, 2022 Victoria Nuland told the Senate:

> Ukraine has biological research facilities which, in fact we are quite concerned
> that Russian troops may be seeking to gain control of. We are working with the
> Ukrainians on how they can prevent any of those research materials from falling
> into the hands of Russian forces should they approach.


But repeating her statement, asking reasonable questions based on that statement, or 
drawing reasonable conclusions from her statement (as Greenwald does in a recent 
column and in 
https://rumble.com/vx2iq7-the-white-houses-game-playing-denials-of-bio-labs-in-ukraine.html 
which also shows the Nuland clip) is apparently not allowed; the establishment shills 
will attempt to shout down anyone who does so by calling them a Russian agent or call 
for their work to be censored.

- Tucker Carlson & Tulsi Gabbard have a good take on government propaganda in 
https://rumble.com/vxlxkw-censored-this-is-what-googleyoutube-does-not-want-you-to-see.html 
or https://youtube.com/watch?v=jhwh2_SDcNQ but on YouTube this interview was preceded 
with "The following content has been identified by the YouTube community as 
inappropriate or offensive to some audiences." and a clickthrough. Perhaps it's worth 
downloading the clip with yt-dlp[1].

- RT's networks were censored off YouTube completely, worldwide. This comes after 
years (dating back to the end of Obama/Biden's administration) of US Government 
complaints about RT, none of which were good arguments. You have to get their clips 
from some other service (such as Rumble) now.

Relatedly: Watch 
https://rumble.com/vtyr34-democrats-are-pressuring-companies-to-censor-for-them-a-violation-of-the-fi.html 
or https://youtube.com/watch?v=g_uSPwYiVFs for a compelling argument on why the US 
Government's calls for censorship via Facebook, Twitter, Google, etc. are illegal.

-J


[1] yt-dlp is a program to download (store a copy of) a video published to a video 
sharing service such as Rumble or YouTube. https://github.com/yt-dlp/yt-dlp has full 
source code and executable downloads for this program. If you need help getting 
yt-dlp or any clip from Rumble or some other site the program supports, ask me how 
and I'll try to help you out.

From moboct1 at aim.com  Fri Mar 18 01:35:15 2022
From: moboct1 at aim.com (Mildred O'brien)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 01:35:15 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Greenwald: "The NYT Now Admits the Biden Laptop
 -- Falsely Called "Russian Disinformation" -- is Authentic"
In-Reply-To: <fe6c2108-9a9d-acd3-953c-8bbc991dc8e8@forestfield.org>
References: <fe6c2108-9a9d-acd3-953c-8bbc991dc8e8@forestfield.org>
Message-ID: <106058527.78281.1647567315527@mail.yahoo.com>

"A COMPLIANT MEDIA IS AN IMPORTANT POLICY TOOL OF HEGEMONIC GEOPOLITICS"--retired Princeton professor of International law Richard Falk.


-----Original Message-----
From: J.B. Nicholson via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
To: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
Sent: Thu, Mar 17, 2022 8:15 pm
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Greenwald: "The NYT Now Admits the Biden Laptop -- Falsely Called "Russian Disinformation" -- is Authentic"

The NYT supports every US war (Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Venezuela, the 
list goes on). The NYT lies constantly and on issues of life and death importance. 
And the NYT supports coordinated censorship campaigns (including this conspiracy to 
not report important things in a timely manner).

Glenn Greenwald (whose work is very much worth reading/watching) goes into detail on 
the latest on this in 
https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-nyt-now-admits-the-biden-laptop

Greenwald's Rumble home (videos)
https://rumble.com/c/GGreenwald

Greenwald's YouTube channel (videos) for as long as YT lets him publish
https://youtube.com/channel/UChzVhAwzGR7hV-4O8ZmBLHg/videos

If you think I'm kidding about YouTube, keep in mind that Google (which owns YouTube) 
is one of multiple tech companies who are censoring anyone who repeats coverage that 
is not in keeping with the current American establishment narrative which is 
remarkably censorious:

- On March 8, 2022 Victoria Nuland told the Senate:

> Ukraine has biological research facilities which, in fact we are quite concerned
> that Russian troops may be seeking to gain control of. We are working with the
> Ukrainians on how they can prevent any of those research materials from falling
> into the hands of Russian forces should they approach.


But repeating her statement, asking reasonable questions based on that statement, or 
drawing reasonable conclusions from her statement (as Greenwald does in a recent 
column and in 
https://rumble.com/vx2iq7-the-white-houses-game-playing-denials-of-bio-labs-in-ukraine.html 
which also shows the Nuland clip) is apparently not allowed; the establishment shills 
will attempt to shout down anyone who does so by calling them a Russian agent or call 
for their work to be censored.

- Tucker Carlson & Tulsi Gabbard have a good take on government propaganda in 
https://rumble.com/vxlxkw-censored-this-is-what-googleyoutube-does-not-want-you-to-see.html 
or https://youtube.com/watch?v=jhwh2_SDcNQ but on YouTube this interview was preceded 
with "The following content has been identified by the YouTube community as 
inappropriate or offensive to some audiences." and a clickthrough. Perhaps it's worth 
downloading the clip with yt-dlp[1].

- RT's networks were censored off YouTube completely, worldwide. This comes after 
years (dating back to the end of Obama/Biden's administration) of US Government 
complaints about RT, none of which were good arguments. You have to get their clips 
from some other service (such as Rumble) now.

Relatedly: Watch 
https://rumble.com/vtyr34-democrats-are-pressuring-companies-to-censor-for-them-a-violation-of-the-fi.html 
or https://youtube.com/watch?v=g_uSPwYiVFs for a compelling argument on why the US 
Government's calls for censorship via Facebook, Twitter, Google, etc. are illegal.

-J


[1] yt-dlp is a program to download (store a copy of) a video published to a video 
sharing service such as Rumble or YouTube. https://github.com/yt-dlp/yt-dlp has full 
source code and executable downloads for this program. If you need help getting 
yt-dlp or any clip from Rumble or some other site the program supports, ask me how 
and I'll try to help you out.
_______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
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From carl at newsfromneptune.com  Fri Mar 18 18:50:43 2022
From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 13:50:43 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Russia warns NATO
Message-ID: <06F4738D-249F-41A0-B836-B414F282B14A@newsfromneptune.com>

The META-stasis of censorship supresses the following:

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2022/03/17/russia-delivers-nato-dire-warning-with-polish-border-base-devastation/

###



From carl at newsfromneptune.com  Wed Mar 23 01:49:53 2022
From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 20:49:53 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_U=2ES=2E_Lied_About_Funding_?=
 =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=9CDangerous_Pathogen=E2=80=9D_Research_in_Secret_Ukraini?=
 =?utf-8?q?an_Biolabs=2C_Newly_Leaked_Documents_Reveal?=
References: <290d7f9f719af49a4fc45a1b5.128a66b559.20220323001753.1b34013fc7.a76fb5b8@mail237.suw101.mcdlv.net>
Message-ID: <CC0FE95D-A2E5-428C-9270-BDCA64AF94F4@newsfromneptune.com>



> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: CovertAction Magazine <info at CovertActionMagazine.com>
> Subject: U.S. Lied About Funding ?Dangerous Pathogen? Research in Secret Ukrainian Biolabs, Newly Leaked Documents Reveal
> Date: March 22, 2022 at 7:18:00 PM CDT
> To: <galliher at uiuc.edu>
> Reply-To: CovertAction Magazine <info at CovertActionMagazine.com>
> 
> View this email in your browser <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailchi.mp/covertactionmagazine.com/breaking-news-from-covertaction-magazine-11191328?e=128a66b559__;!!DZ3fjg!qzdZvxe0hPsSwKZIvwFjfFk2w0I-aepC_pFVkfS1VD43FLVAa7-tmVfnyvvzzxAJ$>
> 
> 
> U.S. Lied About Funding ?Dangerous Pathogen? Research in Secret Ukrainian Biolabs, Newly Leaked Documents Reveal <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://CovertActionMagazine.us18.list-manage.com/track/click?u=290d7f9f719af49a4fc45a1b5&id=829cac7037&e=128a66b559__;!!DZ3fjg!qzdZvxe0hPsSwKZIvwFjfFk2w0I-aepC_pFVkfS1VD43FLVAa7-tmVfnygoN6xo7$>By Dilyana Gaytandzhieva on Mar 22, 2022 07:53 pm
> Newly Leaked Documents Reaveal? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://CovertActionMagazine.us18.list-manage.com/track/click?u=290d7f9f719af49a4fc45a1b5&id=de85bb2b29&e=128a66b559__;!!DZ3fjg!qzdZvxe0hPsSwKZIvwFjfFk2w0I-aepC_pFVkfS1VD43FLVAa7-tmVfnyjvJDOb-$>Pentagon Contractors Worked Under $80 Million Program Funded by Defense Department But Kept Hidden from Public
> 
> Leaked documents give new information about the Pentagon program in biolaboratories in Ukraine. According to internal documents, Pentagon contractors were given full access to all Ukrainian biolaboratories which handled dangerous pathogens, while independent experts were denied even a visit. The new revelations challenge the U.S. government statement that the Pentagon just funded biolaboratories in Ukraine but had nothing to do with them.
> 
> Last week U.S. Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs Victoria Nuland confirmed that ?Ukraine has biological research facilities? and the U.S. is worried that ?those research materials? may fall into Russian hands. What ?research materials? were studied in these biolaboratories and why are U.S. officials so worried that they may fall into Russian hands? [?]
> 
> The post U.S. Lied About Funding ?Dangerous Pathogen? Research in Secret Ukrainian Biolabs, Newly Leaked Documents Reveal <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://CovertActionMagazine.us18.list-manage.com/track/click?u=290d7f9f719af49a4fc45a1b5&id=267032d42b&e=128a66b559__;!!DZ3fjg!qzdZvxe0hPsSwKZIvwFjfFk2w0I-aepC_pFVkfS1VD43FLVAa7-tmVfnysdtLEr3$> appeared first on CovertAction Magazine <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://CovertActionMagazine.us18.list-manage.com/track/click?u=290d7f9f719af49a4fc45a1b5&id=cc256e866e&e=128a66b559__;!!DZ3fjg!qzdZvxe0hPsSwKZIvwFjfFk2w0I-aepC_pFVkfS1VD43FLVAa7-tmVfnythFz8Nd$>.
> 
> 
> Read in browser ? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://CovertActionMagazine.us18.list-manage.com/track/click?u=290d7f9f719af49a4fc45a1b5&id=92124a3251&e=128a66b559__;!!DZ3fjg!qzdZvxe0hPsSwKZIvwFjfFk2w0I-aepC_pFVkfS1VD43FLVAa7-tmVfnykCmCyFT$>
> In Peace and Solidarity,
> Chris Agee
> Executive Editor
> CovertAction Magazine
>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://CovertActionMagazine.us18.list-manage.com/track/click?u=290d7f9f719af49a4fc45a1b5&id=0e2a74818b&e=128a66b559__;!!DZ3fjg!qzdZvxe0hPsSwKZIvwFjfFk2w0I-aepC_pFVkfS1VD43FLVAa7-tmVfnypi5TcDc$>
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> Copyright ? 2022 CovertAction Magazine, All rights reserved.
> Subscribers 2022
> 
> Our mailing address is:
> CovertAction Magazine
> 55 Gerard St # 1323
> Huntington, NY  11743-8252
> 
> Add us to your address book <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://CovertActionMagazine.us18.list-manage.com/vcard?u=290d7f9f719af49a4fc45a1b5&id=cd1195dc2a__;!!DZ3fjg!qzdZvxe0hPsSwKZIvwFjfFk2w0I-aepC_pFVkfS1VD43FLVAa7-tmVfnyqAh164b$>
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From carl at newsfromneptune.com  Wed Mar 23 01:55:55 2022
From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 20:55:55 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] From the group 'Live Action'
Message-ID: <66516C09-802C-4E73-B322-2E9774D338AC@newsfromneptune.com>

> Mr. Estabrook, 
>  
> Tragic things are happening in Connecticut... 
> 
> I just saw a story involving a lawsuit filed by a couple named Christin and Shawn who went to Planned Parenthood for a medical evaluation after Christin took a pregnancy test and it was positive. 
> 
> Allegedly a midwife - not even a physician - examined Christin transvaginally and told her she was 6 weeks and 3 days along with her preborn child. She also told Christin that she had a ?non-viable pregnancy?, there was only an ?empty sac?, and prescribed her the abortion pill regimen. 
> 
> After taking the pills, Christin gave birth 2 days later to a 22-week stillborn baby boy, which she delivered into a toilet. 
> 
> Christin and Shawn named this sweet baby Kyle Shawn.
> 
> You can read the full story here:https://www.liveaction.org/news/planned-parenthood-abortion-pill-22-week/ 
> 
> On top of the emotional trauma of unexpectedly giving birth to a stillborn baby? Christin?s medical expert in the lawsuit said she experienced physical trauma as well. 
> 
> Mr. Estabrook, it?s dizzying to think about how far off this midwife was in her examination of this mother? Although I?m horrified (as I?m sure you are as well), I?m not surprised. The abortion industry has shown time and time again that they are in it for profit, not for women.
> 
> As you?re reading this, Connecticut is considering two highly pro-abortion bills that will respectively:
> 	? Allow midwives to perform all abortion procedures, and 
> 	? Allow the state to become a so-called ?safe harbor? for criminal abortionists
> These bills are certainly fueled by abortion activists who see our progress in the pro-life movement as a threat to their deadly agenda.
> 
> Midwives are trained to deliver babies, not kill them. 
> 
> Safe harbors belong to babies, not abortionists. 
> 
> My heart is heavy from this story and from the fact that evil bills in Connecticut are actually being considered that will increase these kinds of stories.
>  
> Let?s take some time tonight to grieve these tragedies.
> 
> Then, tomorrow, we must renew our strength to keep fighting to end this evil and show the world that love and life prevail. 
>  
> For life,
> 
> Lauren Bielinski
> VP of Strategic Partnerships
> 

From carl at newsfromneptune.com  Wed Mar 23 20:49:51 2022
From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 15:49:51 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Grayzone - Blumental & Matte interview Scott Ritter
Message-ID: <73C8A776-45EE-45CC-BD38-99F74ACF8766@newsfromneptune.com>

The best thing I?ve seen on war in Ukraine:

<https://youtu.be/OSkpIq3T-Zc>

?CGE

From jbn at forestfield.org  Wed Mar 23 23:40:17 2022
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 18:40:17 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Recommended videos for AWARE on the Air,
 News from Neptune, and Labor's World View TV
Message-ID: <20d9a5da-75a6-989a-6ac1-db5d3266ceaf@forestfield.org>

Here are the videos I recommended to run during AWARE on the Air, News from Neptune, 
and Labor's World View TV.

There's a number of previously-run videos that are still current and in the queue so 
don't be surprised if you don't hear from me for a week or two on this while I take 
care of some other issues going on for me.

As a reminder: If anyone else has anything to run, please feel free to get your video 
pointers to UPTV (UPTV at urbanaillinois.us). I have continued to ask UPTV to prioritize 
AWARE members video pointers over mine for AWARE on the Air, Carl Estabrook & David 
Green's video pointers over mine for News from Neptune, and David Johnson's video 
pointers over mine for Labor's World View TV.

Enjoy.
-J



News from Neptune & AWARE on the Air
==================================================

Aaron Mat?/The Grayzone
https://youtube.com/watch?v=OSkpIq3T-Zc -- (2h 43m) The battle for Ukraine, with 
ex-UN weapons inspector Scott Ritter
https://youtube.com/watch?v=vu9zH7KjdLA -- (28m 17s) CGTN's "The Heat" alongside 
Bohdan Nahaylo of the Kyiv Post
https://youtube.com/watch?v=0vxufUeqnuc -- (52m 32s) US fighting Russia 'to the last 
Ukrainian'
https://youtube.com/watch?v=M_Gzgu47wAc -- (35m) How US-backed Maidan coup, 
Russiagate led to war in Ukraine
https://youtube.com/watch?v=7ZnIUSvPtdo -- (12m 52s) Why Rep. Thomas Massie stood 
against "stand with Ukraine" resolution

RT
https://rumble.com/vy892p-crosstalk-on-ukraine-info-warfare.html -- (25m 36s) 
CrossTalk on Ukraine | Info Warfare with Anya Parampil, Scottie Nell Hughes, and Pepe 
Escobar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPt9Bc2DFAY -- (19m 47s) Francis A. Boyle on Nazi 
Death Scientists
https://rumble.com/vy5o4l-ukraine-media-fog-of-war-turns-fake-stories-of-heroes-into-myths.html 
-- (3m 1s) Ukraine media fog of war turns fake stories of heroes into myths
https://rumble.com/vy5i01-facebook-bans-eu-meps-page-after-vote-against-anti-russian-sanctions.html 
-- (8m 50s) Facebook bans EU MEP's page after vote against anti-Russian sanctions
https://rumble.com/vy4z5z-western-countries-continue-to-pump-ukraine-with-
lethal-weapons.html -- (2m 10s) Western countries continue to pump Ukraine with 
lethal weapons
https://rumble.com/vy2hj9-u.s.-led-invasion-of-iraq-19-years-on.html -- (1m 58s) 
U.S.-led invasion of Iraq 19 years on
https://rumble.com/vy1fqp-zelensky-bans-pro-russian-opposition-parties.html -- (2m 
36s) Zelensky bans 'pro-Russian' opposition parties
https://rumble.com/vy8itj-anti-russia-sanctions-are-changing-the-world-financial-system.html 
-- (4m 50s) Anti-Russia sanctions are changing the world financial system
https://rumble.com/vy8k33-palestinian-activists-planting-olive-trees-hit-by-tear-gas.html 
-- (49s) Palestinian activists planting olive trees hit by tear gas
https://rumble.com/vy94l5-canada-exacerbated-tragedy-in-ukraine-activist-who-confronted-canadian-fm-t.html 
-- (1m 54s) Canada ?exacerbated tragedy in Ukraine? - activist who confronted 
Canadian FM to RT
https://rumble.com/vy89yl-us-arms-manufacturers-hit-jackpot-with-ukraine-conflict.html 
-- (4m 24s) US arms manufacturers hit jackpot with Ukraine conflict

BreakThrough News
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Avx7uFbvmqw -- (13m 48s) Former Saudi Political Prisoner: 
U.S. Officials ?Don?t Give a F*** About These Souls?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=5GU2t6ToZoE -- (14m 53s) How Is India Reacting to the War 
in Ukraine?

The Left Lens from Black Agenda Report
https://youtube.com/watch?v=APuhHxPJVr8 -- (1h 53m 31s) Joe Biden and Xi Jinping 
Meet/Are U.S. Sanctions facilitating the COLLAPSE of the Dollar?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=psui_uvqpGQ -- (14m 31s) How Censorship and "Free Speech" 
are Part of the Global Class War



Labor's World View TV
==================================================

More Perfect Union
https://youtube.com/watch?v=rvr5HsMOCHM -- (5m 21s) The Biden Admin Is Ending Junk 
Fees & Overdraft Charges
https://youtube.com/watch?v=81-2gdegeL0 -- (5m 19s) Minneapolis Teachers Strike For 
First Time In 40+ Years
https://youtube.com/watch?v=PO6-jzbFGvQ -- (8m 55s) How America Helped Russian 
Oligarchs Steal Billions | The Class Room
https://youtube.com/watch?v=psDvN2Nwonw -- (5m 14s) Starbucks Is Harassing A 19-Year 
Old Union-Leader
https://youtube.com/watch?v=tzLcqDk7kjg -- (5m 41s) Anti-Critical Race Theory 
Activists Are Out Of Control in Texas
https://youtube.com/watch?v=it5SNp664rM -- (1m) Amazon warehouse workers walk out. 
Video from Queens, NY
https://youtube.com/watch?v=hoJ2CzI3rlI -- (1m) North Hollywood strippers strike for 
increased safety & privacy protections

BreakThrough News
https://youtube.com/watch?v=-EIPYj9ZACg -- (11m 56s) Striking Minneapolis Teacher: 
?No One Here Is Going to Settle for the Status Quo?

The Left Lens from Black Agenda Report
https://youtube.com/watch?v=APuhHxPJVr8 -- (1h 53m 31s) Joe Biden and Xi Jinping 
Meet/Are U.S. Sanctions facilitating the COLLAPSE of the Dollar?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=psui_uvqpGQ -- (14m 31s) How Censorship and "Free Speech" 
are Part of the Global Class War

Democracy At Work
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_pRxMBf6pWM -- (5m 27s) Resurgence of White Supremacy - 
Adolph Reed Jr. on Economic Update
https://youtube.com/watch?v=PBTKAYcHGQw -- (29m 25s) Economic Update: Ukraine, Race 
and Class
https://youtube.com/watch?v=YeItBzhlxTs -- (4m 6s) Inflation: A Slap in the Face of 
the Working Class - Global Capitalism with Richard Wolff
https://youtube.com/watch?v=sigWqC6qOpA -- (3m 59s) Bacon's Rebellion - Capitalism 
Hits Home
https://youtube.com/watch?v=sbctxXo7yEo -- (17m 7s) Capitalism Hits Home: The Origins 
of Racism - An Untold History

RT
https://rumble.com/vy8itj-anti-russia-sanctions-are-changing-the-world-financial-system.html 
-- (4m 50s) Anti-Russia sanctions are changing the world financial system

From jbn at forestfield.org  Wed Mar 23 23:43:31 2022
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 18:43:31 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Grayzone - Blumental & Matte interview Scott
 Ritter
In-Reply-To: <73C8A776-45EE-45CC-BD38-99F74ACF8766@newsfromneptune.com>
References: <73C8A776-45EE-45CC-BD38-99F74ACF8766@newsfromneptune.com>
Message-ID: <69584fa0-7c1d-3bd4-1714-7cf4984a0249@forestfield.org>

C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote:
> The best thing I?ve seen on war in Ukraine:
> 
> <https://youtu.be/OSkpIq3T-Zc>

Thanks for the pointer, Carl!

Look for this video in the next batch of recommended videos for AWARE on the Air, 
News from Neptune, and Labor's World View TV in 
https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2022-March/053408.html

I also found a good brief explanation of the petrodollar (not surprisingly, from RT 
which is banned in the US online). That video is also in that set of recommended 
videos (a crossover pick for AOTA/NFN and Labor's World View TV).

From carl at newsfromneptune.com  Fri Mar 25 14:37:12 2022
From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 09:37:12 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: Make Nazism Great Again
References: <20220325140051.1.4086585F8ED9427A@mg.unz.com>
Message-ID: <F095154D-A1F5-4396-8D10-4E857F35A0C8@newsfromneptune.com>



> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: Pepe Escobar / The Unz Review <social at unz.com>
> Subject: Make Nazism Great Again
> To: carl at newsfromneptune.com
> 
> The Unz Review ? An Alternative Media Selection <http://emailtrack.mg.unz.com/c/eJw9zEsKwyAUQNHVxKHo8z9wEGizD79NIZpgDEJX39BB4c4unGijp8ACelsgAISBoJwQQTHFnGgptFj082E4qHnipLzwVT847AWtlkOUxlCmpFdBO5FFAiN9zpmAiyBQsQy0ogw42uza-3FObJ5guRtj_KVmg2vbrdc0ztz2UtPRr5p-s9sjnWH3rn0BWkoymg>Subscribe <http://emailtrack.mg.unz.com/c/eJw1jUEKwyAUBU8Tl6Lfb9WFi0Cbe6gxTSAmQQ1CT18pFGbxZvNmtrPnIALZLDAAJkByZExyyiky_ZBaTvr1NAhqHJClN72PDw1nIqt1XBlwEhfp5gAKUTGPnBsTjBMxSpKsAK24ACS7XWu9yiDGAaZOa-3_1K3cvoS8-dg3yTa4vPfYEVtZ8pmOeNX7iL9qtVcs4fQufwFJ1TdY>
> A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media <http://emailtrack.mg.unz.com/c/eJw9zEsKwyAUQNHVxKHo8z9wEGizD79NIZpgDEJX39BB4c4unGijp8ACelsgAISBoJwQQTHFnGgptFj082E4qHnipLzwVT847AWtlkOUxlCmpFdBO5FFAiN9zpmAiyBQsQy0ogw42uza-3FObJ5guRtj_KVmg2vbrdc0ztz2UtPRr5p-s9sjnWH3rn0BWkoymg>
> Make Nazism Great Again <http://emailtrack.mg.unz.com/c/eJw1js0KgzAQhJ_G3JTNJtF4yKHQ9j1WXX9oEyVJEfr0DQVhDjMMfHyTmwaJahSbQ0AEhUZqACMb2WiwrbHmaR_3XmN3qzT4pfmEbzPuXqxOzn3LEw8dWAO9JjZGU2ewVVCIsxTeKbSdVKjF2605H6lStwqfJed5XqSyDk7jPlAs1dOL60DfLfl6iUy5poW2UB4R3UjxXSwCn2mOuw985E_gv052F-QHBcBAHA>The supreme target is regime change in Russia, Ukraine is just a pawn in the game ? or worse, mere cannon fodder.
> Pepe Escobar ? Thursday, March 24, 2022 ? 1,800 Words
> 
> All eyes are on Mariupol. As of Wednesday night, over 70% of residential areas were under control of Donetsk and Russian forces, while Russian Marines, Donetsk?s 107th batallion and Chechen Spetsnaz, led by the charismatic Adam Delimkhanov, had entered the Azov-Stal plant ? the HQ of the neo-Nazi Azov batallion.
> 
> Azov was sent a last ultimatum: surrender until midnight ? or else, as in a take no prisoners highway to hell.
> 
> That implies a major game-changer in the Ukrainian battlefield; Mariupol is finally about to be thoroughly denazified ? as the Azov contingent long entrenched in the city and using civilians as human shields were their most hardened fighting force.
> 
> Meanwhile, echoes from the Empire of Lies all but gave the whole game away. There?s no intention whatsoever in Washington to facilitate a peace plan in Ukraine ? and that explains Comedian Zelensky?s non-stop stalling tactics. The supreme target is regime change in Russia, and for that Totalen Krieg against Russia and all things Russian is warranted. Ukraine is just a pawn in the game ? or worse, mere cannon fodder.
> 
> This also means that the 14,000 deaths in Donbass for the past 8 years should be directly attributed to the Exceptionalists. As for Ukrainian neo-Nazis of all stripes, they are as expendable as ?moderate rebels? in Syria, be they al-Qaeda or Daesh-linked. Those that may eventually survive can always join the budding CIA-sponsored Neo-Nazi Inc. ? the tawdry remix of the 1980s Jihad Inc. in Afghanistan. They will be properly ?Kalibrated?.
> 
> A quick neo-Nazi recap
> 
> By now only the brain dead across NATOstan ? and there are hordes ? are not aware of Maidan in 2014. Yet few know that it was then Ukrainian Minister of Interior Arsen Avakov, a former governor of Kharkov, who gave the green light for a 12,000 paramilitary outfit to materialize out of Sect 82 soccer hooligans who supported Dynamo Kiev. That was the birth of the Azov batallion, in May 2014, led by Andriy Biletsky, a.k.a. the White Fuhrer, and former leader of the neo-nazi gang Patriots of Ukraine.
> 
> Together with NATO stay-behind agent Dmitro Yarosh, Biletsky founded Pravy Sektor, financed by Ukrainian mafia godfather and Jewish billionaire Ihor Kolomoysky (later the benefactor of the meta-conversion of Zelensky from mediocre comedian to mediocre President.)
> 
> Pravy Sektor happened to be rabidly anti-EU ? tell that to Ursula von der Lugen ? and politically obsessed with linking Central Europe and the Baltics in a new, tawdry Intermarium. Crucially, Pravy Sektor and other nazi gangs were duly trained by NATO instructors.
> 
> Biletsky and Yarosh are of course disciples of notorious WWII-era Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera, for whom pure Ukrainians are proto-Germanic or Scandinavian, and Slavs are untermenschen.
> 
> Azov ended up absorbing nearly all neo-Nazi groups in Ukraine and were dispatched to fight against Donbass ? with their acolytes making more money than regular soldiers. Biletsky and another neo-Nazi leader, Oleh Petrenko, were elected to the Rada. The White F?hrer stood on his own. Petrenko decided to support then President Poroshenko. Soon the Azov battalion was incorporated as the Azov Regiment to the Ukrainian National Guard.
> 
> They went on a foreign mercenary recruiting drive ? with people coming from Western Europe, Scandinavia and even South America.
> 
> That was strictly forbidden by the Minsk Agreements guaranteed by France and Germany (and now de facto defunct). Azov set up training camps for teenagers and soon reached 10,000 members. Erik ?Blackwater? Prince, in 2020, struck a deal with the Ukrainian military that would enable his renamed outfit, Academi, to supervise Azov.
> 
> It was none other than sinister Maidan cookie distributor Vicky ?F**k the EU? Nuland who suggested to Zelensky ? both of them, by the way, Ukrainian Jews ? to appoint avowed Nazi Yarosh as an adviser to the Commander-in-Chief of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, Gen Valerii Zaluzhnyi. The target: organize a blitzkrieg on Donbass and Crimea ? the same blitzkrieg that SVR, Russian foreign intel, concluded would be launched on February 22, thus propelling the launch of Operation Z.
> 
> All of the above, in fact just a quick recap, shows that in Ukraine there?s no difference whatsoever between white neo-Nazis and brown-colored al-Qaeda/ISIS/Daesh, as much as neo-Nazis are just as ?Christian? as takfiri Salafi-jihadis are ?Muslim?.
> 
> When Putin denounced a ?bunch of neo-Nazis? in power in Kiev, the Comedian replied that it was impossible because he was Jewish. Nonsense. Zelensky and his patron Kolomoysky, for all practical purposes, are Zio-Nazis.
> 
> Even as branches of the United States government admitted <http://emailtrack.mg.unz.com/c/eJwdjtuKxCAQRL8mvhm0vcQ8-DAwO__htM5GNmrwwsJ8_ToLTTUUVYfy1j85CCTRAgNgAhSXjCm-8lUyo5VRD_N13yVst0Wy9L2O_F6xJHLMptQY0GvvDO4hiE2g30Gh1Fy_jCDJCjAbFyDJaY_er7aI2wKPeVhyK7XHkXL4bR_gNIFxNR_TUzhMGbTRo4wWqPMp9kaze0dayxlozHT8VBdzmDlSLbp6zoEf2quWSb36yOF_abdXaFierv4BQntI4A> to neo-Nazis entrenched in the Kiev apparatus, the Exceptionalist machine made the daily shelling of Donbass for 8 years simply disappear. These thousands of civilian victims never existed.
> 
> U.S. mainstream media even ventured the odd piece or report on Azov and Aidar neo-Nazis. But then a neo-Orwellian narrative was set in stone: there are no Nazis in Ukraine. CIA offshoot NED even started deleting records <http://emailtrack.mg.unz.com/c/eJwljstqwzAQRb_GWpp5aCxpoUUgzQeU7IvsyE0gfiCNCeTrq7ZwF-duDucWbyMST-YRCYiASdACCPbYW_CDeLn4j3Ow5E6dheW7P9Z3P22LuUdKiV2aLfAggkFwmIVH4BA4CEgyS2TyDpmseca76l47PnV0adPXQzWXX1N7n9evf6ia9KgNsAmCJ3EuUOtwntGUOKXybBVrftW5bMuadz3W_Jejcc912sZUfgARwzxl> about training members of Aidar. Recently a crappy news network duly promoted a video of a NATO-trained and weaponized Azov commander ? complete with Nazi iconography.
> 
> Why ?denazification? makes sense
> 
> The Banderastan ideology harks back to when this part of Ukraine was in fact controlled by the Austro-Hungarian empire, the Russian empire and Poland. Stepan Bandera was born in Austro-Hungary in 1909, near Ivano-Frankovsk, in the ? then autonomous ? Kingdom of Galicia.
> 
> WWI dismembered European empires into frequently non-viable small entities. In western Ukraine ? an imperial intersection ? that inevitably led to the proliferation of extremely intolerant ideologies.
> 
> Banderastan ideologues profited from the Nazi arrival in 1941 to try to proclaim an independent territory. But Berlin not only blocked it but sent them to concentration camps. In 1944 though the Nazis changed tactics: they liberated the Banderanistas and manipulated them into anti-Russian hate, thus creating a destabilization force in the Ukrainian USSR.
> 
> So Nazism is not exactly the same as Banderastan fanatics: they are in fact competing ideologies. What happened since Maidan is that the CIA kept a laser focus on inciting Russian hatred by whatever fringe groups it could instrumentalize. So Ukraine is not a case of ?white nationalism? ? to put it mildly ? but of anti-Russian Ukrainian nationalism, for all practical purposes manifested via Nazi-style salutes and Nazi-style symbols.
> 
> So when Putin and the Russian leadership refer to Ukrainian Nazism, that may not be 100% correct, conceptually, but it strikes a chord with every Russian.
> 
> Russians viscerally reject Nazism ? considering that virtually every Russian family has at least one ancestor killed during the Great Patriotic War. From the perspective of wartime psychology, it makes total sense to talk of ?Ukro-nazism? or, straight to the point, a ?denazification? campaign.
> 
> How the Anglos loved the Nazis
> 
> The United States government openly cheerleading neo-Nazis in Ukraine is hardly a novelty, considering how it supported Hitler alongside England in 1933 for balance of power reasons.
> 
> In 1933, Roosevelt lent Hitler one billion gold dollars while England lent him two billion gold dollars. That should be multiplied 200 times to arrive at today?s fiat dollars. The Anglo-Americans wanted to build up Germany as a bulwark against Russia. In 1941 Roosevelt wrote to Hitler that if he invaded Russia the U.S. would side with Russia, and wrote Stalin that if Stalin invaded Germany the U.S. would back Germany. Talk about a graphic illustration of Mackinderesque balance of power.
> 
> The Brits had become very concerned with the rise of Russian power under Stalin while observing that Germany was on its knees with 50% unemployment in 1933, if one counted unregistered itinerant Germans.
> 
> Even Lloyd George had misgivings about the Versailles Treaty, unbearably weakening Germany after its surrender in WWI. The purpose of WWI, in Lloyd George?s worldview, was to destroy Russia and Germany together. Germany was threatening England with the Kaiser building a fleet to take over the oceans, while the Tsar was too close to India for comfort. For a while Britannia won ? and continued to rule the waves.
> 
> Then building up Germany to fight Russia became the number one priority ? complete with rewriting of History. The uniting of Austrian Germans and Sudetenland Germans with Germany, for instance, was totally approved by the Brits.
> 
> But then came the Polish problem. When Germany invaded Poland, France and Britain stood on the sidelines. That placed Germany on the border of Russia, and Germany and Russia divided up Poland. That?s exactly what Britain and France wanted. Britain and France had promised Poland that they would invade Germany from the west while Poland fought Germany from the east.
> 
> In the end, the Poles were double-crossed. Churchill even praised Russia for invading Poland. Hitler was advised by MI6 that England and France would not invade Poland ? as part of their plan for a German-Russian war. Hitler had been supported financially since the 1920s by MI6 for his favorable words about England in Mein Kampf. MI6 de facto encouraged Hitler to invade Russia.
> 
> Fast forward to 2022, and here we go again ? as farce, with the Anglo-Americans ?encouraging? Germany under feeble Scholz to put itself back together militarily, with 100 billion euros (that the Germans don?t have), and setting up in thesis a revamped European force to later go to war against Russia.
> 
> Cue to the Russophobic hysteria in Anglo-American media about the Russia-China strategic partnership. The mortal Anglo-American fear is Mackinder/Mahan/Spykman/Kissinger/Brzezinski all rolled into one: Russia-China as peer competitor twins take over the Eurasian land mass ? the Belt and Road Initiative meets the Greater Eurasia Partnership ? and thus rule the planet, with the U.S. relegated to inconsequential island status, as much as the previous ?Rule Britannia?.
> 
> England, France and later the Americans had prevented it when Germany aspired to do the same, controlling Eurasia side by side with Japan, from the English Channel to the Pacific. Now it?s a completely different ball game.
> 
> So Ukraine, with its pathetic neo-Nazi gangs, is just an ? expendable ? pawn in the desperate drive to stop something that is beyond anathema, from Washington?s perspective: a totally peaceful German-Russian-Chinese New Silk Road.
> 
> Russophobia, massively imprinted in the West?s DNA, never really went away. Cultivated by the Brits since Catherine the Great ? and then with The Great Game. By the French since Napoleon. By the Germans because the Red Army liberated Berlin. By the Americans because Stalin forced to them the mapping of Europe ? and then it went on and on and on throughout the Cold War.
> 
> We are at just the early stages of the final push by the dying Empire to attempt arresting the flow of History. They are being outsmarted, they are already outgunned by the top military power in the world, and they will be checkmated. Existentially, they are not equipped to kill the Bear ? and that hurts. Cosmically.
> 
> 
> Unsubscribe From This Mailing List <http://emailtrack.mg.unz.com/u/eJwVzFEOwiAMANDTyCdpSxnlgw8T9R6jgJoIW6aLiadX3wFeSSUjOTX3REAEjjwygEeLlkEmL_4i51NkCscDQ7_afXysLt3cEgSRSUortTrMBRtyDApew1w1ZjA9OZKAjthsSeft8RtGfT_btvRR19c-6r_6Auy_JZs>
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From moboct1 at aol.com  Fri Mar 25 17:02:17 2022
From: moboct1 at aol.com (Mildred O'brien)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 17:02:17 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: Make Nazism Great Again
In-Reply-To: <F095154D-A1F5-4396-8D10-4E857F35A0C8@newsfromneptune.com>
References: <20220325140051.1.4086585F8ED9427A@mg.unz.com>
 <F095154D-A1F5-4396-8D10-4E857F35A0C8@newsfromneptune.com>
Message-ID: <311463042.185457.1648227737377@mail.yahoo.com>

I have several questions for Pepe or Ritter or anyone else who might venture a reply:?
1)?Are the 4+ million Ukrainian refugees (who's counting?) who emigrated to neighboring countries and left?men behind to? ? ? ? ?defend Ukraine relatives of Azov nazis???
2) How can the Ukrainian army (or civilian) defenders left behind to fight the Russians be distinguished from nazi Azov? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?troops (who one assumes would not be attired in neo-nazi uniform)?
3) Are neo-Nazi groups in the U.S. affiliated with or trained by Ukrainian Nazis (as I have read somewhere but can't recall)?
4) Is it known if American fringe ersatz-Nazis (and those in other countries) who are descendents of or influenced by WW II? ? ? ?predecessors who immigrated via Operation Paperclip?? Have descendants of WW II Nazis admitted to the U.S. been? ? ? ? ? ? ?identified (or if) among those who have gone to Ukraine against the Russians?
Midge

-----Original Message-----h
From: C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
To: Peace <peace at anti-war.net>
Cc: peace-discuss at anti-war.net
Sent: Fri, Mar 25, 2022 9:38 am
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: Make Nazism Great Again




Begin forwarded message:
From: Pepe Escobar / The Unz Review <social at unz.com>
Subject: Make Nazism Great Again
To: carl at newsfromneptune.com

The Unz Review ? An Alternative Media SelectionSubscribeA Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
Make Nazism Great Again
The supreme target is regime change in Russia, Ukraine is just a pawn in the game ? or worse, mere cannon fodder.
Pepe Escobar ??Thursday, March 24, 2022 ??1,800 Words

All eyes are on Mariupol. As of Wednesday night, over 70% of residential areas were under control of Donetsk and Russian forces, while Russian Marines, Donetsk?s 107th?batallion and Chechen Spetsnaz, led by the charismatic Adam Delimkhanov, had entered the Azov-Stal plant ? the HQ of the neo-Nazi Azov batallion.

Azov was sent a last ultimatum: surrender until midnight ? or else, as in a take no prisoners highway to hell.

That implies a major game-changer in the Ukrainian battlefield; Mariupol is finally about to be thoroughly denazified ? as the Azov contingent long entrenched in the city and using civilians as human shields were their most hardened fighting force.

Meanwhile, echoes from the Empire of Lies all but gave the whole game away. There?s no intention whatsoever in Washington to facilitate a peace plan in Ukraine ? and that explains Comedian Zelensky?s non-stop stalling tactics. The supreme target is regime change in Russia, and for that?Totalen Krieg?against Russia and all things Russian is warranted. Ukraine is just a pawn in the game ? or worse, mere cannon fodder.

This also means that the 14,000 deaths in Donbass for the past 8 years should be directly attributed to the Exceptionalists. As for Ukrainian neo-Nazis of all stripes, they are as expendable as ?moderate rebels? in Syria, be they al-Qaeda or Daesh-linked. Those that may eventually survive can always join the budding CIA-sponsored Neo-Nazi Inc. ? the tawdry remix of the 1980s Jihad Inc. in Afghanistan. They will be properly ?Kalibrated?.

A quick neo-Nazi recap

By now only the brain dead across NATOstan ? and there are hordes ? are not aware of Maidan in 2014. Yet few know that it was then Ukrainian Minister of Interior Arsen Avakov, a former governor of Kharkov, who gave the green light for a 12,000 paramilitary outfit to materialize out of Sect 82 soccer hooligans who supported Dynamo Kiev. That was the birth of the Azov batallion, in May 2014, led by Andriy Biletsky, a.k.a. the White Fuhrer, and former leader of the neo-nazi gang Patriots of Ukraine.

Together with NATO stay-behind agent Dmitro Yarosh, Biletsky founded Pravy Sektor, financed by Ukrainian mafia godfather and Jewish billionaire Ihor Kolomoysky (later the benefactor of the meta-conversion of Zelensky from mediocre comedian to mediocre President.)

Pravy Sektor happened to be rabidly anti-EU ? tell that to Ursula von der Lugen ? and politically obsessed with linking Central Europe and the Baltics in a new, tawdry Intermarium. Crucially, Pravy Sektor and other nazi gangs were duly trained by NATO instructors.

Biletsky and Yarosh are of course disciples of notorious WWII-era Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera, for whom pure Ukrainians are proto-Germanic or Scandinavian, and Slavs are?untermenschen.

Azov ended up absorbing nearly all neo-Nazi groups in Ukraine and were dispatched to fight against Donbass ? with their acolytes making more money than regular soldiers. Biletsky and another neo-Nazi leader, Oleh Petrenko, were elected to the Rada. The White F?hrer stood on his own. Petrenko decided to support then President Poroshenko. Soon the Azov battalion was incorporated as the Azov Regiment to the Ukrainian National Guard.

They went on a foreign mercenary recruiting drive ? with people coming from Western Europe, Scandinavia and even South America.

That was strictly forbidden by the Minsk Agreements guaranteed by France and Germany (and now de facto defunct). Azov set up training camps for teenagers and soon reached 10,000 members. Erik ?Blackwater? Prince, in 2020, struck a deal with the Ukrainian military that would enable his renamed outfit, Academi, to supervise Azov.

It was none other than sinister Maidan cookie distributor Vicky ?F**k the EU? Nuland who suggested to Zelensky ? both of them, by the way, Ukrainian Jews ? to appoint avowed Nazi Yarosh as an adviser to the Commander-in-Chief of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, Gen Valerii Zaluzhnyi. The target: organize a blitzkrieg on Donbass and Crimea ? the same blitzkrieg that SVR, Russian foreign intel, concluded would be launched on February 22, thus propelling the launch of Operation Z.

All of the above, in fact just a quick recap, shows that in Ukraine there?s no difference whatsoever between white neo-Nazis and brown-colored al-Qaeda/ISIS/Daesh, as much as neo-Nazis are just as ?Christian? as takfiri Salafi-jihadis are ?Muslim?.

When Putin denounced a ?bunch of neo-Nazis? in power in Kiev, the Comedian replied that it was impossible because he was Jewish. Nonsense. Zelensky and his patron Kolomoysky, for all practical purposes, are Zio-Nazis.

Even as branches of the United States government?admitted?to neo-Nazis entrenched in the Kiev apparatus, the Exceptionalist machine made the daily shelling of Donbass for 8 years simply disappear. These thousands of civilian victims never existed.

U.S. mainstream media even ventured the odd piece or report on Azov and Aidar neo-Nazis. But then a neo-Orwellian narrative was set in stone: there are no Nazis in Ukraine. CIA offshoot NED even started?deleting records?about training members of Aidar. Recently a crappy news network duly promoted a video of a NATO-trained and weaponized Azov commander ? complete with Nazi iconography.

Why ?denazification? makes sense

The Banderastan ideology harks back to when this part of Ukraine was in fact controlled by the Austro-Hungarian empire, the Russian empire and Poland. Stepan Bandera was born in Austro-Hungary in 1909, near Ivano-Frankovsk, in the ? then autonomous ? Kingdom of Galicia.

WWI dismembered European empires into frequently non-viable small entities. In western Ukraine ? an imperial intersection ? that inevitably led to the proliferation of extremely intolerant ideologies.

Banderastan ideologues profited from the Nazi arrival in 1941 to try to proclaim an independent territory. But Berlin not only blocked it but sent them to concentration camps. In 1944 though the Nazis changed tactics: they liberated the Banderanistas and manipulated them into anti-Russian hate, thus creating a destabilization force in the Ukrainian USSR.

So Nazism is not exactly the same as Banderastan fanatics: they are in fact competing ideologies. What happened since Maidan is that the CIA kept a laser focus on inciting Russian hatred by whatever fringe groups it could instrumentalize. So Ukraine is not a case of ?white nationalism? ? to put it mildly ? but of anti-Russian Ukrainian nationalism, for all practical purposes manifested via Nazi-style salutes and Nazi-style symbols.

So when Putin and the Russian leadership refer to Ukrainian Nazism, that may not be 100% correct, conceptually, but it strikes a chord with every Russian.

Russians viscerally reject Nazism ? considering that virtually every Russian family has at least one ancestor killed during the Great Patriotic War. From the perspective of wartime psychology, it makes total sense to talk of ?Ukro-nazism? or, straight to the point, a ?denazification? campaign.

How the Anglos loved the Nazis

The United States government openly cheerleading neo-Nazis in Ukraine is hardly a novelty, considering how it supported Hitler alongside England in 1933 for balance of power reasons.

In 1933, Roosevelt lent Hitler one billion gold dollars while England lent him two billion gold dollars. That should be multiplied 200 times to arrive at today?s fiat dollars.?The Anglo-Americans wanted to build up Germany as a bulwark against Russia.?In 1941 Roosevelt wrote to Hitler that if he invaded Russia the U.S. would side with Russia, and wrote Stalin that if Stalin invaded Germany the U.S. would back Germany.?Talk about a graphic illustration of Mackinderesque balance of power.

The Brits had become very concerned with the rise of Russian power under Stalin while observing that Germany was on its knees with 50% unemployment in 1933, if one counted unregistered itinerant Germans.

Even Lloyd George had misgivings about the Versailles Treaty, unbearably weakening Germany after its surrender in WWI. The purpose of WWI, in Lloyd George?s worldview, was to destroy Russia and Germany together.?Germany was threatening England with the Kaiser building a fleet to take over the oceans, while the Tsar was too close to India for comfort.?For a while Britannia won ? and continued to rule the waves.

Then building up Germany to fight Russia became the number one priority ? complete with rewriting of History. The uniting of Austrian Germans and Sudetenland Germans with Germany, for instance, was totally approved by the Brits.

But then came the Polish problem. When Germany invaded Poland, France and Britain stood on the sidelines. That placed Germany on the border of Russia, and Germany and Russia divided up Poland.?That?s exactly what Britain and France wanted. Britain and France had promised Poland that they would invade Germany from the west while Poland fought Germany from the east.

In the end, the Poles were double-crossed.?Churchill even praised Russia for invading Poland. Hitler was advised by MI6 that England and France would not invade Poland ? as part of their plan for a German-Russian war.?Hitler had been supported financially since the 1920s by MI6 for his favorable words about England in Mein Kampf.?MI6 de facto encouraged Hitler to invade Russia.

Fast forward to 2022, and here we go again ? as farce, with the Anglo-Americans ?encouraging? Germany under feeble Scholz to put itself back together militarily, with 100 billion euros (that the Germans don?t have), and setting up in thesis a revamped European force to later go to war against Russia.

Cue to the Russophobic hysteria in Anglo-American media about the Russia-China strategic partnership.?The mortal Anglo-American fear is Mackinder/Mahan/Spykman/Kissinger/Brzezinski all rolled into one: Russia-China as peer competitor twins take over the Eurasian land mass ? the Belt and Road Initiative meets the Greater Eurasia Partnership ? and thus rule the planet, with the U.S. relegated to inconsequential island status, as much as the previous ?Rule Britannia?.

England, France and later the Americans had prevented it when Germany aspired to do the same, controlling Eurasia side by side with Japan, from the English Channel to the Pacific. Now it?s a completely different ball game.

So Ukraine, with its pathetic neo-Nazi gangs, is just an ? expendable ? pawn in the desperate drive to stop something that is beyond anathema, from Washington?s perspective: a totally peaceful German-Russian-Chinese New Silk Road.

Russophobia, massively imprinted in the West?s DNA, never really went away. Cultivated by the Brits since Catherine the Great ? and then with The Great Game. By the French since Napoleon. By the Germans because the Red Army liberated Berlin. By the Americans because Stalin forced to them the mapping of Europe ? and then it went on and on and on throughout the Cold War.

We are at just the early stages of the final push by the dying Empire to attempt arresting the flow of History. They are being outsmarted, they are already outgunned by the top military power in the world, and they will be checkmated. Existentially, they are not equipped to kill the Bear ? and that hurts. Cosmically.

Unsubscribe From This Mailing List

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From carl at newsfromneptune.com  Fri Mar 25 18:46:17 2022
From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 13:46:17 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: More Evidence That The US Is Trying To Prolong
 This War
References: <20220325140309.2.c35c4354560037e1.8hlyxjvc@mg2.substack.com>
Message-ID: <13FBDA99-E536-44E1-A4CA-60F55DFD7AF3@newsfromneptune.com>



> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: Caitlin Johnstone from Caitlin?s Newsletter <caitlinjohnstone at substack.com>
> Subject: More Evidence That The US Is Trying To Prolong This War
> Date: March 25, 2022 at 9:03:09 AM CDT
> To: cgestabrook at gmail.com
> Reply-To: Caitlin Johnstone from Caitlin?s Newsletter <reply+ude6v&692a&&212a63ade2dc4fc9595f217610b138e455329e93a89fd1c2541257df1be2c1e6 at mg1.substack.com>
> 
> 
> More Evidence That The US Is Trying To Prolong This War <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxdklGPojAQxz-NvElKCwgPPNyJu6d7atx4u7IvpC0DVKAltHjip9-qT3dJO83M_Gcm6W84NVCpYUp6pY1zN7mZekgk_NUtGAODM2oYclEkOPbCCDtF4hdeFESO0Hk5AHRUtIkZRnD6kbWCUyOUvOsj7GHfqRNEGJCIYEK5X3pBxBgwSlnES8JwUfLnVDoWAiSHBC4wTEqC0ya1Mb2ekR8z_GIPp8K0Qp5VLbWxAlePTBvKG5erzuZ7ezs1wBwuori3mpuaGmtgPuq50HMzTEJWM_JiVANyRlKYNh7HH9MJt836rKb9cYX36Vqv5c8LJ-8l_TyI_fnPdZuubttbE_xebvrsdI-t8C6tpu0xC_bHTK-79sandWjrvEwgf3teTbvlvc_O-o-47XcwvPuoM_LeM-yL8uDGKoph83oI-9Rs364n9Br9IqzfB2mm67fl5w1F4xc0X5cyc0SCEcaI4MDzEUGxi11OAu6TwA9ChMgCPDeq2-l6vvCZj7oK__M9zpDwCqzLBqUaK6ju2B4ZSy23bzdKYaYcJGUtFE-g5rkVD8R5BRIGuy1FTk3ihb7FG8ZxGCwWT4CWeOAhj5A4duzoQtkqmfwP7Rt8GNT8>
>  <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxNkE1uwyAQRk8TdrH4NyxYdNNrWBgmNqkNFuC0vn1xElWVEDBihk_vOVthSvkwWyoVndtQjw1MhO-yQK2Q0V4gD8EbqolUFHnDPVFCoVCGWwZYbVhMzTugbR-X4GwNKZ79ihLK0WyEV1IL7fjo1egsEQq86lUvPVNE0P6VancfIDow8IB8pAhoMXOtW7mwjwv9bKvsY6nWfXUura3ccrqFBdqN8L7Xkqqrs6EuIV7vaY6lnn8EQzGlmFFBOGZYd7RzTDjOBBcSY9YD6dS8HD_3h7twvE60-x-DsnETtHLMKX21humkfb402KGd6x5DPQaIdlzAvzzUl8ynmWGCCLlJ9oOthkjerEitpejf3E2UIJgwpjVq0T61qWjeJH8gv95cjoc>	
> Caitlin Johnstone <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxNkE1uwyAQRk8TdrH4NyxYdNNrWBgmNqkNFuC0vn1xElWVEDBihk_vOVthSvkwWyoVndtQjw1MhO-yQK2Q0V4gD8EbqolUFHnDPVFCoVCGWwZYbVhMzTugbR-X4GwNKZ79ihLK0WyEV1IL7fjo1egsEQq86lUvPVNE0P6VancfIDow8IB8pAhoMXOtW7mwjwv9bKvsY6nWfXUura3ccrqFBdqN8L7Xkqqrs6EuIV7vaY6lnn8EQzGlmFFBOGZYd7RzTDjOBBcSY9YD6dS8HD_3h7twvE60-x-DsnETtHLMKX21humkfb402KGd6x5DPQaIdlzAvzzUl8ynmWGCCLlJ9oOthkjerEitpejf3E2UIJgwpjVq0T61qWjeJH8gv95cjoc>
> Mar 25	 <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxdUsmS2jAQ_Rp8i0uL14MPCduYsNQQhoFcXLLU2PIeWwbM10eG5JBUqbpL3a_3x5mCpG6HoKk7ZYwiUkMDQQW3rgCloDX6DtpIioD42PGIIQJLYM_2DNlFlxagZLIIVNuD0fRxITlTsq5GvEcwsYw0YJfYsmxKbNe3wfOxcPFFuJQwxIASC7-qsl5IqDgEcIV2qCswiiBVqukm9OuELPTjTKpCVlmdVp3SALPr404xnpu8LrWfNVLLK9ZizKjVs7cvLTA-9jShC1XnoPUMhhXm5DicSJGHWT3sDnOym4VdWH27crq_sM93ucs-7pvZ_LF55PZ6uhp-fi4ysSyusQydsP8umqnGl0UqpqGzOZyRjr9vs9zeyptkp-1D55X87SjXh2TYHEIUajunR_m0l8f0TPdNTCx5eTc_ltN9tfqVsX61CS33cb_xR3Nazo8bG_l0PXtLz-u9w37Erl6F06sy6uq-5aAn-buDP_YShOzLccJxdEMGBBGC9O6xhSjyTWJyanOL2pbtIERdwKaXFsM9u_KJhcqE_LNUow14Avobt3Wda0AyZn169K0jrcu-kmqIoGJxAeJFA_Xi0rODKIEKWs0xETEVYMfSpHB837Fd93V2zRMbI0yp7xu6tKh1VBX8f-rfVUjnCg>	 <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxdUktzmzAQ_jXmZkYPwHDg0BontVPb44ybmFwYEAvIBolBwo386yvs9NDOSDva17er3Y_lGmo5mLiXSjuTyLTpIRbwW7WgNQzOqGDIeBmTCAchccrYK3Hohw5XWTUAdDlvYz2M4PRj0XKWay7FFB8STDyniZl9-CRkYREBhjwKqtILq6pEIWURLhaPqvlYchAMYrjCYKQAp40brXs1o99m5MkelnPdcnGWjVDaBrhqLJTO2cVlsrP-3t5ODjCHKy8nqLlucm0FzEc152quB8NFPSHJrgOhLfSTlhcQM5qA2WBG3syJtJf1WZr9cUX2yVqtxfcro69V_n7g-_Ovz22yum1vF__nctOnp8m2IrukNttj6u-PqVp37Y2ZdWDzcMqRtz2vzG454eysfrdbvINm3VuT0te-IB6vDm4kwwg2z4egT_T25fOEnsMftOj3fpKq5mX5fkPh-AGXj2uVzkgw6i5TchwY2M7_TuHL3kHJx2760bQYh8cEEYIo8bGHKIpc4jLqM4_6nh8gRBeA3bBpzef5ymYe6mryz1idIWY1WLUYpLzYgHpCvXvstrNpkKPg2mQg8qKF8kEE_WDTvYOsBgGDZVmZ5TrGgWfZEERR4C--Fm-Z4mOEKY0ix5Yupc0S8f_L_gMaX-ht>	 <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxdUsGOmzAQ_Rq4BRkbCBw4rLJNyqbJSm2aze4FGXsWHMBObZMN-fo1SSu1lWxL8-Z5RvPmMWqhVnrMT8pYf3pKO54gl_BhOrAWtD8Y0KXgOc7CJMU-zyMepnHqC1O-a4Ceii63egD_NFSdYNQKJSd-ikMc-U2eJShkNCMJTtMKCKkSliU4pFmcJikhcO9KBy5AMsjhDHpUEvwub6w9GY88eHjpDqPCdkIeVSONdYTADJWxlLUBU73Ln9ztlYYZnAWfSs1sQ617YDaYmTAzq0cha48sB9uXRg2agUce_1TxcDLhPXAx9A6_DfYbZEpakHZiN1SDQymbxvwLsKqFKYbxKWR4Px5w1xZHNT7vvuDnx8IUfdfwRZFsdq_IxZftsY234kPQw_bqeIJ93Ytvu3rc7ApUOJyRvbjhq-zKF-H49rI88lV3rsRTFrSFfjU_DuO6QD8336-FXK028XL1tv31eqkeFst1N7y8n9d2IG5NOUYYI4LjMEIEZQEOGIlZROIoThAicwiDtOnGy_HMvAj1Nf5HWF_nrAYXVlqp1hHqSZdbxu3bKdP3gxR2LEHSqgN-t4K9--mmYVmDBO18xktq8zCJnDGSLEvi-fy-eueVOEQhIVnmu9ZcuV8y_3_dn4GW6dU>
>  <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxVUsmOpDAM_ZriBspOOOTQGql_A2UxVLogYZJQ3fTXT4DTSJHteHuWn60uMMd0qC3m0pxiLMcGKsB3XqAUSM2eIY3eKTJgIUnjFHNYctn4PE4JYNV-USXt0Gy7WbzVxcdw5kuCCWueSkwMGSwM6fWEJKZMGgdWTMIRzAnFN6renYdgQcEb0hEDNIt6lrLlB_14kM_6rAtd3k0u2r46G9fq8queoeoJin2eurYp8UH-_L0N-jHH6Op_WsYtxTlBzv4N1Z8LwFYrbgjCTxB-wlRhdvuCGk8tIG6Mlaw1WtOW0R7agWPZamcoMdD3g2Rdpp1e9W8M-jvfc9Ue9y4u8xoyXyajGAAG1HLMbcswEq2Wrm8HbSYiuTPcTiNGEv1wwbstzI1XBBGCKOGYIYqGjnSWcssoZ1wgVCfCnXwux8_X2z4YWmfy346apGwFL9qkGF81YT7puiJ1wrHqdQ--HCMEbRZwN5HlvoaL2nGGAKleiRt1UViwSqsYBsH7_iauMs0xwpQOQ1OhXaxVQVnty-LDV3yGXCqb_wDZVskG>	
> Listen to a reading of this article: <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkUGSpSAMhk_z2GkhqOiCxWzmGhZCVLoRLAivx9tP7FdFJST5Q1If1iDsKd_6SgXZYxa8L9ARfkoARMisFsiLd1rM3TgJ5nTvummYmC_LlgFO44PGXIFddQ3eGvQpPvpJdKJnh-ZS9Ns6jJsDOYLi0yQ3OyulRgNqU_wz1VTnIVrQ8IZ8pwgs6APxKi_55yX-0impRmdDqq616aTEnnzcl5z2ChSdKUMDb--eVxo8DJKBppbGlwbzTdoGU3PlFNJzPSj9YzLzWnAhaMmh67nkcytaKwfby6EfRs6lgq6djnD_-3rbV8_PXbSlrgWN_X72YFnbHShcc0rfJNgfIL8V4rGQP2v0eC8QzRrAfVDhh_cvvGWHCJn-wS0GdTf2BG6c53FQ6oOGWA4d76ScZ0ajXaKuqK3xGHz8SkcsSLz-AzjjnWI>
> 	
> More Evidence That The US Is Trying To Prolong This War by Going Rogue With Caitlin Johnstone
> Going Rogue With Caitlin Johnstone
>  <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkUGSpSAMhk_z2GkhqOiCxWzmGhZCVLoRLAivx9tP7FdFJST5Q1If1iDsKd_6SgXZYxa8L9ARfkoARMisFsiLd1rM3TgJ5nTvummYmC_LlgFO44PGXIFddQ3eGvQpPvpJdKJnh-ZS9Ns6jJsDOYLi0yQ3OyulRgNqU_wz1VTnIVrQ8IZ8pwgs6APxKi_55yX-0impRmdDqq616aTEnnzcl5z2ChSdKUMDb--eVxo8DJKBppbGlwbzTdoGU3PlFNJzPSj9YzLzWnAhaMmh67nkcytaKwfby6EfRs6lgq6djnD_-3rbV8_PXbSlrgWN_X72YFnbHShcc0rfJNgfIL8V4rGQP2v0eC8QzRrAfVDhh_cvvGWHCJn-wS0GdTf2BG6c53FQ6oOGWA4d76ScZ0ajXaKuqK3xGHz8SkcsSLz-AzjjnWI>?
> 
> The Washington Post has a new article out <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkE2OwyAMhU9TlhH_TRYsZjOrXmBWiICb0CYQgdOZ3H5oI1m2nmzr6XveIUy5HGbLFcm7WTw2MAl-6wKIUMheodgYDB-Y7jkJRgbWq57Eau8FYHVxMVh2INs-LtE7jDm973vOuCSzkXqUKkitJaXMCa16CDxwR7WSTt3Z6er2ECF5MPCCcuQEZDEz4lYv4uvCv1u54uf4gm6bm1hvw-2HRMMp51RwxSQVdOh454XyUiipNKXiCqzr5-X4e7z8RdJ14l3dx4rOPzufV1KMn6DJseT8bAfTG-azaSy2zXVPEQ8LyY0LhBMTz6w-4HaCBKVlGKxDw7Rs0HoYtLpeT6yWg2KUCTEMpFmH3L6S8S7iEtMjz6liY_0HTauCig> bemoaning the fact that Russian military commanders are declining calls from the Pentagon to discuss their operations in Ukraine (I dunno guys, might have something to do with the fact that the US is sharing extensive military intelligence <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkE1uhDAMhU8zWaL8EIYssqgqddNuegIUHA-kAwlKzLTcvplBsmw92dbT98ARTikfdkuF2LMNdGxoI_6WBYkws71gHoK30oiul8zb1ote9yyU4ZYRVxcWS3lHtu3jEsBRSPF530shWzZb54253XpwTjrfezAgjTJKe-4EaoDT1e0-YAS0-MB8pIhssTPRVi7q7SI_arkMc3hgs81VfL3zz28WrORSciW1aLnippENKA2t0q3uOFdXFE0_L8ffzwMuLV8n2ZR9LOTg3kBaWbYwYZVjTuleD6YnzGtTWYY61z0GOgaMblzQn5h0ZvUCHyaMmGuGfnBkRddW6M6YTl-vJ1bNQQsulDKGVWuf6le04AItIf6kORaqrP_YjIPi> on exactly those operations directly with the Ukrainian government). Tucked all the way down in the eighteenth paragraph of the article, we find a much more interesting revelation: that Washington's top diplomat has made no attempt to contact his counterpart in Moscow since the war began on the 24th of February.
> 
> "Secretary of State Antony Blinken has not attempted any conversations with his counterpart, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, since the start of the conflict, according to U.S. officials," The Washington Post reports.
> 
> So the US government is continuing its policy <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkctuxCAMRb9m2BHxyHPBopv-RkTATdwhEIHTaf6-pCOha2GusH3sLMGa8mWOVIjdMtN1gInwKgGIILOzQJ7RGzXJflTMm9bLsRsZlvkrA-wWg6F8AjvOJaCzhCne_lFJ1bLN-FZKmDSo3rWj8lJ0Yhh0P0llR6cW-65qT48QHRj4gXylCCyYjegoD_3xUJ_13C01NhK-bG5c2mtKCaVqELqKFFVoA34WjoUXwhB4TMQpXxhX7vEIabfu4i-kjR8nYeSUqjEd_AvXjW5XzZ3PbDFC_Y2huSsIrTrZCi2mRjVOd67VXdv1QugBZDNu4fr9_nGPVuyrasq5FLLueXfIsnEr1OuSU3pWw3rD-n-prOYa9zMiXTNEuwTwb4z03sU_2HmFCLnuyM-WjOwrQNlPU98Nwxtb5dxJIbWeJlZL-zohRuMsUsD4nbZYx4vwB6dopCw> of refusing to attempt any high-level diplomatic resolutions to this war despite its public hand-wringing about the horrific violence that's being inflicted upon the people of Ukraine. This revelation fits nicely with a recent report by Bloomberg's Niall Ferguson <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkL2OxCAMhJ9mKSP-AwXFNVdft2VEwJuwm0AEJHd5-2M3kmVrZFujb5ytMKV8mi2Vit5tqOcGJsJvWaBWyGgvkIfgDdVEKoq84Z4ooVAowyMDrDYspuYd0LaPS3C2hhTf94oSytFsGAauQI0PxbSXo9CWq15q67juBZP0crW7DxAdGDggnykCWsxc61Zu7OtGv1vZ7OZwQLfNTdyPO_ygYCimFDMqCMcM6452jgnHmeBCYsx6IJ2al_Pvebgbx-tEu7KPpVr36lxaUTZugibHnNKrHUxvmM-msQxtrnsM9Rwg2nEBf2HWK6sP-DBBhNwy9IOthkjeoKXWUvT9hdVyEAQTxrRGzdqn9hWNs6EuIT7THEttrP-9LoL7> that sources in the US and UK governments have told him the real goal of western powers in this conflict is not to negotiate peace or end the war quickly, but to prolong it in order "bleed Putin" and achieve regime change in Moscow.
> 
> 
> Leonid Bershidskiy 
> @Bershidsky
> The amazing part of this column is that U.S. officials are saying out loud that they want the war to last in order to "bleed Putin". They don't care a fig about Ukraine. It stands completely alone (and Zelenskiy knows it, btw). 
>  <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkE2OhCAQhU_TLA0_grJgMbOYaxjEamXaBgNl93j7KduEAC9U8ep9wSPMuRxuyxXZuQ14bOASvOsKiFDYXqEMcXLSCtNLNrl2Er3uWazDvQA8fVwdlh3Yto9rDB5jTmd9L4Vs2eJ6bY3vQq9lp8QoWjWqLljTew7-bkZ_ufp9ipACOHhBOXICtroFcas39XWTP7TwHc95mpCfpL6h1CVO9XGQqOhxr3QRmhslLTlJI7VRStKcTnIpuZJatFxx28gmKB1apVttOFcdiKZf1uPv9xVuLX_Osqn7SF-Gx-nFigszkBxLzg8qmM_EnxcKPND53FPEY4DkxxWmiwVeQD90hhkSFAI9DR6dMC2RMdYa3XVXdoKlBRdKWcvIesrUlVzwEdeYfvOSKhKQf37ijdA>Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
> bloomberg.com
>  <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkcuO5CAMRb8m7BLxyHPBYqRRzx_MNiLgSugiEPHoVPrr2-mSENjmWheOtcqwhnjJI6RM7m3O1wHSw5kc5AyRlARxtkbyifUjJ0a2ho3dSGyaHxFgV9bJHAuQoyzOapVt8Ld-5Iy3ZJODoqMeRqaXVvXcdJ3SoAaj-lG0w8L121UVY8FrkPAF8QoeiJNbzkeqxJ-Kf-A6z7NZXAj7AnFtdNixFg7r0Q4jFbPVDhKGnHJeU1Fzjom3yrn6gS0lBV8fJVtfK2_qxRrw9W5T8QZiyndtsykjjBol5RmV9VCfKlbiI0V4VOLv6_ufY__1i1h5m1DBO9ZSQaeGN1p0uhVd2_WUigFYM27uen1-6aql-8qbVBY00c_75SRKvQKmSwzhiYL1pvh7gxBnPPfibb5m8GpxYN5883tIv8TnFTxEHJ6ZVZasb5F2P019NwxvnjiAjlEmxDQRtDYBu7zUymZn_WfYPP7Uww8lma7V>March 22nd 2022
> 
> 1,191 Retweets3,694 Likes
>  <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkE2OhCAQhU_TLA0_grJgMbOYaxjEamXaBgNl93j7KduEAC9U8ep9wSPMuRxuyxXZuQ14bOASvOsKiFDYXqEMcXLSCtNLNrl2Er3uWazDvQA8fVwdlh3Yto9rDB5jTmd9L4Vs2eJ6bY3vQq9lp8QoWjWqLljTew7-bkZ_ufp9ipACOHhBOXICtroFcas39XWTP7TwHc95mpCfpL6h1CVO9XGQqOhxr3QRmhslLTlJI7VRStKcTnIpuZJatFxx28gmKB1apVttOFcdiKZf1uPv9xVuLX_Osqn7SF-Gx-nFigszkBxLzg8qmM_EnxcKPND53FPEY4DkxxWmiwVeQD90hhkSFAI9DR6dMC2RMdYa3XVXdoKlBRdKWcvIesrUlVzwEdeYfvOSKhKQf37ijdA>
> Building on an earlier report <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkE1uxCAMhU8Tdo34D1mw6KZ36Coi4CbMEIiATJvbl0wky5ZlW8_vs6bCkvKp91QqutJUzx10hN8SoFbI6CiQJ-80HYlUFDnNHVFCIV-mnwywGR90zQeg_ZiDt6b6FK99RQnlaNWgOCFEDHxQkhk22plYJ6ikEqiCQdyq5nAeogUNL8hnioCCXmvdS8c-O_rVwmS7-hf0-9oa-TDfuKOsQAB7KX5IznpF3oXQ9p2mmFLMqCAcMzz2tLdMWM4EFxJjNgDp1RrOv8fLdhxvC-3LMZdq7LO3aUNZ2wVaO-eUnm1huXy-J83m1Op2RF_PCaKZA7ibQL0xvplMC0TIDa-bTNVE8sZDjqMUw3A7bogEwYSxcURN2qV2FbU1vgYfH2mNpTYM_wCiiak> from The New York Times that the Biden administration ?seeks to help Ukraine lock Russia in a quagmire," Ferguson writes that he has reached the conclusion that "the U.S. intends to keep this war going," and says he has other sources to corroborate this:
> 
> ?The only end game now,? a senior administration official was heard to say at a private event earlier this month, ?is the end of Putin regime. Until then, all the time Putin stays, [Russia] will be a pariah state that will never be welcomed back into the community of nations. China has made a huge error in thinking Putin will get away with it. Seeing Russia get cut off will not look like a good vector and they?ll have to re-evaluate the Sino-Russia axis. All this is to say that democracy and the West may well look back on this as a pivotal strengthening moment.?
> 
> I gather that senior British figures are talking in similar terms. There is a belief that ?the U.K.?s No. 1 option is for the conflict to be extended and thereby bleed Putin.? Again and again, I hear such language. It helps explain, among other things, the lack of any diplomatic effort by the U.S. to secure a cease-fire.  It also explains the readiness of President Joe Biden to call Putin a war criminal.
> 
> Earlier this month when The Intercept's Ryan Grim was able to get a word in edgewise at a White House press briefing <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxlkUuO5CAMhk9T7Ih4psKCRW_mGhEPV0JVAhGQyuT2TXV6ViMhG__Y2PrsTIUp5VNvqVT0MWM9N9ARjrJArZDRXiCPwWumaD8w5LXwdJADCmV8ZIDVhEXXvAPadrsEZ2pI8ZM_MMoEmjVjUjHHhDXKAe8p9KqnD2HB-rux3F9dze4DRAca3pDPFAEteq51Kzf-dWN_2jmOozvmUGFObaRuSu8m2hzgEeKEc0pri7cMpeB_amkKI4w1R3gzVP6Xgu2JL6WAy1BNPvETIt6KeQW8muxmTCX-_QUF_bkRziQVhBPVsc5x6QSXQvaE8DvQbpiX8-_z7W6CrBPrym5LNe7VubSirN0ELbRt3ldLmD74fl4avbH5dY-hniNEYxfwF9h6becH9ThBhNy25kdTNe1Fw9wr1cv7_QLZyEtKKOdKodbap1YVtTOhLiE-0xxLbXS_AaQoqkY> amid the throngs of mass media reporters demanding to know why Biden still hasn't started World War 3 <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkUFr9CAQhn9NPAYdYzQHD4WyUHopFL7DdwmuziZuEw1q2qa_vqYL4rzDzPgOj9YUnGI69BZzIec1lmNDHfArL1gKJrJnTKN3GgbWKyBOd44poYjP4y0hrsYvuqQdybZfF29N8TGc_QoYdGTWSingpnM3Z5gA1fWSg8EbWMe4AcUfrmZ3HoNFjZ-YjhiQLHouZcsNf2rgUk_58uc-rY1rzdJhwpT8KXMxZc9VMEH5AFzKHqhkUvSKNvxSX3gG2kBfqnj9vsvh8uZ-Lv__zUGt20sU70_Ea6AAlINgHeV0aKG1XNiOi070lHKJrFXzcnzfP23T0XWCNu_Xamw_zn1I0nbCml5TjB-1YTqp_FUqlLHGdQ--HCMGc13QPXiVB_Q_guOEAVP9DDeaolnfVXr9MPRCygefClQwyjgfBlKtXaxTQVvjy-LDPc4hlwrtF-HDmDs>, Press Secretary Jen Psaki gave a very revealing answer. 
> 
> "So, aside from the request for weapons, President Zelensky has also requested that the US be more involved in negotiations toward a peaceful resolution to the war. What is the U.S. doing to push those negotiations forward?" asked Grim.
> 
> "Well, one of the steps we?ve taken ? a significant one ? is to be the largest provider of military and humanitarian and economic assistance in the world, to put them in a greater position of strength as they go into these negotiations," Psaki answered, completely dodging the question of whether the US was actually doing anything to help negotiate peace.
> 
> 
> Ryan Grim 
> @ryangrim
> This is wild 
> 
>  <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkUFr9CAQhn9NPAYdYzQHD4WyUHopFL7DdwmuziZuEw1q2qa_vqYL4rzDzPgOj9YUnGI69BZzIec1lmNDHfArL1gKJrJnTKN3GgbWKyBOd44poYjP4y0hrsYvuqQdybZfF29N8TGc_QoYdGTWSingpnM3Z5gA1fWSg8EbWMe4AcUfrmZ3HoNFjZ-YjhiQLHouZcsNf2rgUk_58uc-rY1rzdJhwpT8KXMxZc9VMEH5AFzKHqhkUvSKNvxSX3gG2kBfqnj9vsvh8uZ-Lv__zUGt20sU70_Ea6AAlINgHeV0aKG1XNiOi070lHKJrFXzcnzfP23T0XWCNu_Xamw_zn1I0nbCml5TjB-1YTqp_FUqlLHGdQ--HCMGc13QPXiVB_Q_guOEAVP9DDeaolnfVXr9MPRCygefClQwyjgfBlKtXaxTQVvjy-LDPc4hlwrtF-HDmDs>March 16th 2022
> 
> 4,454 Retweets24,378 Likes
>  <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkUFr9CAQhn9NPAYdYzQHD4WyUHopFL7DdwmuziZuEw1q2qa_vqYL4rzDzPgOj9YUnGI69BZzIec1lmNDHfArL1gKJrJnTKN3GgbWKyBOd44poYjP4y0hrsYvuqQdybZfF29N8TGc_QoYdGTWSingpnM3Z5gA1fWSg8EbWMe4AcUfrmZ3HoNFjZ-YjhiQLHouZcsNf2rgUk_58uc-rY1rzdJhwpT8KXMxZc9VMEH5AFzKHqhkUvSKNvxSX3gG2kBfqnj9vsvh8uZ-Lv__zUGt20sU70_Ea6AAlINgHeV0aKG1XNiOi070lHKJrFXzcnzfP23T0XWCNu_Xamw_zn1I0nbCml5TjB-1YTqp_FUqlLHGdQ--HCMGc13QPXiVB_Q_guOEAVP9DDeaolnfVXr9MPRCygefClQwyjgfBlKtXaxTQVvjy-LDPc4hlwrtF-HDmDs>
> As we've discussed previously <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxd0MmOhCAQBuCnkZuG1eXAYZJJv4ZBKJVuBAPYPb790O1pJmEJqSr-5NMqwxLiKfeQMnofYz53kB5eyUHOENGRII7WSDqQtqfISG5IL3pk0zhHgE1ZJ3M8AO3H5KxW2Qb_7u8poRytUg1ThzsNAsg8z6aMEjW1rONUzC3p-ytVHcaC1yDhCfEMHpCTa857qthXRW9laWWzs_4eVp9yaWjSMaWs9KPRYSv1vezjEZX1UNtUqzopHe1stVWu3tXL18FX7FY-_H4hKymmFDMqCMcMDw1tNBOaM8FFizHrgDT96s6f-1NXHG8L_ROHotQLlOcUQ3iUhuXN8KkUhbHc2-FtPkfwanJgLqB8KX_IxgU8xKJvRpUlaXnhaoehFV13gRRBQTBhbBhQiTahTHn5H-EXQb2Yvg>, the US government has a well-documented history of working to draw Moscow into costly military quagmires with the goal of preoccupying its military forces and draining its coffers. Former US officials are on record publicly boasting about having done so in both Afghanistan <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkN2SgyAMhZ-m3NXh18oFF3uzr-EgpkpXwYHYrvv0G9sZhhwgyQlf8AhTLofbckV2bj0eG7gEr7oAIhS2Vyh9HJ20ou0kG50eRWc6Fmt_LwCrj4vDsgPb9mGJwWPM6czvpJCaza7zVt7V0A1g-TgMHoSWPNhgAIKRQXxc_T5GSAEcPKEcOQFb3Iy41Yv6ushvWq_Xq_HLw_8BFN-EvNLdOSYFybmioE95Cn-fZp9iRZ-uOMO15mcEvO6JRqvXUye_sugkl5IraYTmittGNkGZoJXRpqWONxBNNy_H7-MZLpqvk2zqPlDT8HPas-LCBHQcSs4_lDCdKN4vRKKnuJIhHj0kPywwfiDhh_QbWz9Bor8gjL1HJ1pNyFprW3O7faAQRSO4UMpaRtZjpqrkgo-4xPTIc6pIpP4Bwd2ZQQ> and Syria <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlUMmOwyAM_ZpyjFizHDjMZX4jIuAmtAlU4LSTvx-nkRD4Cdtv8Q5hzuWwr1yRndeIxwtsgk9dAREK2yuUMQYrB9H2kgWrg-hNz2Id7wVgc3G1WHZgr31ao3cYczr7eymkZosVXDp51x6cmAYxGCNbwYf7PfTG6dC3F6vbQ4TkwcIbypETsNUuiK96Uz83-UsHP_HU0_i8EXKu5PTYSD6Big73SoVQsutoe2tkp6ngomPRSi4lV9IIzRUfGtl4ZbxWRpuWc9WBaPplPf4eb3_TfJtlU_eJVvrnycWK9TMQnErOT2qYT8ffHzI80rvtKeIxQnLTCuHKAq9Av-mMMyQopDSMDq1oNSXTDqSx6y7vFJYRXCg1DIyoQ6apZL2LuMb0yEuqSIH8A4Qcjc0>. This is an agenda geared toward sapping the Russian government, manufacturing international consent for unprecedented acts of economic warfare designed (though perhaps ineptly <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxV0MuOgyAUBuCnKTsNF0VdsJhk0tcwFI5Kh4KBQzu-_dC6moRLgAN_-IxGWGM61B4zkvcw47GDCvDKHhAhkZIhzc4qPjE5cmJVZ9nYj8TleUkAD-28wlSA7OXmndHoYnjXj5zxjmzKckH5OFhJhe2ZYNIMo7DSGGb0ssjxTNXFOggGFDwhHTEA8WpD3PNFfF34tbZcnK1Zus3lllGbn9bER93fa39tGhu3NHtBF5pN2yYW3L0-wDYlN9r7i7jWp74TcYpTzqngPeuooFPLWyN604m-6yWlYgDWjps_fu9Pc-noY-X_AklSZoW6vKUYf2rB-gb4nNT_z3V-lODwmCHomwd70uDp-8GaVwiQqrudNSomuwolp0n2w3BSVLueUSbENJEabWO9FZTRDr0L97iFjNXnD6BWldA>) to crush the Russian economy, to foment discord and rebellion, and ultimately to effect regime change in Moscow.
> 
> The US empire doesn't care about Ukrainian lives, and it's insulting that its operatives continually pretend to. The empire will happily feed every man, woman and child in the entire nation into the mouth of this war if it means unseating a disobedient leader from a nuclear-armed seat of power which has become unacceptably cozy with Beijing and intolerably comfortable with intervening against US imperial agendas. And all the Ukrainian-flag-waving propagandized westerners with their #StandWithUkraine Instagram activism and blue and yellow profile pics will cheer for it every step of the way.
> 
> I hope this brutal proxy war ends and peace comes to Ukraine very quickly. But from what we're seeing today there appears to be an immense globe-spanning power structure holding its foot against the door of the only exit from this horror. 
> 
> ___________________________
> 
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>  <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxdUsmS2jAQ_Rp8i0uL14MPCduYsNQQhoFcXLLU2PIeWwbM10eG5JBUqbpL3a_3x5mCpG6HoKk7ZYwiUkMDQQW3rgCloDX6DtpIioD42PGIIQJLYM_2DNlFlxagZLIIVNuD0fRxITlTsq5GvEcwsYw0YJfYsmxKbNe3wfOxcPFFuJQwxIASC7-qsl5IqDgEcIV2qCswiiBVqukm9OuELPTjTKpCVlmdVp3SALPr404xnpu8LrWfNVLLK9ZizKjVs7cvLTA-9jShC1XnoPUMhhXm5DicSJGHWT3sDnOym4VdWH27crq_sM93ucs-7pvZ_LF55PZ6uhp-fi4ysSyusQydsP8umqnGl0UqpqGzOZyRjr9vs9zeyptkp-1D55X87SjXh2TYHEIUajunR_m0l8f0TPdNTCx5eTc_ltN9tfqVsX61CS33cb_xR3Nazo8bG_l0PXtLz-u9w37Erl6F06sy6uq-5aAn-buDP_YShOzLccJxdEMGBBGC9O6xhSjyTWJyanOL2pbtIERdwKaXFsM9u_KJhcqE_LNUow14Avobt3Wda0AyZn169K0jrcu-kmqIoGJxAeJFA_Xi0rODKIEKWs0xETEVYMfSpHB837Fd93V2zRMbI0yp7xu6tKh1VBX8f-rfVUjnCg>	Comment
>  <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxdUktzmzAQ_jXmZkYPwHDg0BontVPb44ybmFwYEAvIBolBwo386yvs9NDOSDva17er3Y_lGmo5mLiXSjuTyLTpIRbwW7WgNQzOqGDIeBmTCAchccrYK3Hohw5XWTUAdDlvYz2M4PRj0XKWay7FFB8STDyniZl9-CRkYREBhjwKqtILq6pEIWURLhaPqvlYchAMYrjCYKQAp40brXs1o99m5MkelnPdcnGWjVDaBrhqLJTO2cVlsrP-3t5ODjCHKy8nqLlucm0FzEc152quB8NFPSHJrgOhLfSTlhcQM5qA2WBG3syJtJf1WZr9cUX2yVqtxfcro69V_n7g-_Ovz22yum1vF__nctOnp8m2IrukNttj6u-PqVp37Y2ZdWDzcMqRtz2vzG454eysfrdbvINm3VuT0te-IB6vDm4kwwg2z4egT_T25fOEnsMftOj3fpKq5mX5fkPh-AGXj2uVzkgw6i5TchwY2M7_TuHL3kHJx2760bQYh8cEEYIo8bGHKIpc4jLqM4_6nh8gRBeA3bBpzef5ymYe6mryz1idIWY1WLUYpLzYgHpCvXvstrNpkKPg2mQg8qKF8kEE_WDTvYOsBgGDZVmZ5TrGgWfZEERR4C--Fm-Z4mOEKY0ix5Yupc0S8f_L_gMaX-ht>	Share
>  <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxdUsGOmzAQ_Rq4BRkbCBw4rLJNyqbJSm2aze4FGXsWHMBObZMN-fo1SSu1lWxL8-Z5RvPmMWqhVnrMT8pYf3pKO54gl_BhOrAWtD8Y0KXgOc7CJMU-zyMepnHqC1O-a4Ceii63egD_NFSdYNQKJSd-ikMc-U2eJShkNCMJTtMKCKkSliU4pFmcJikhcO9KBy5AMsjhDHpUEvwub6w9GY88eHjpDqPCdkIeVSONdYTADJWxlLUBU73Ln9ztlYYZnAWfSs1sQ617YDaYmTAzq0cha48sB9uXRg2agUce_1TxcDLhPXAx9A6_DfYbZEpakHZiN1SDQymbxvwLsKqFKYbxKWR4Px5w1xZHNT7vvuDnx8IUfdfwRZFsdq_IxZftsY234kPQw_bqeIJ93Ytvu3rc7ApUOJyRvbjhq-zKF-H49rI88lV3rsRTFrSFfjU_DuO6QD8336-FXK028XL1tv31eqkeFst1N7y8n9d2IG5NOUYYI4LjMEIEZQEOGIlZROIoThAicwiDtOnGy_HMvAj1Nf5HWF_nrAYXVlqp1hHqSZdbxu3bKdP3gxR2LEHSqgN-t4K9--mmYVmDBO18xktq8zCJnDGSLEvi-fy-eueVOEQhIVnmu9ZcuV8y_3_dn4GW6dU>
> If you liked this post from Caitlin?s Newsletter <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxdkE1uxCAMRk8zLCMw5IcFi256jYiAJ2GaQATOtLl9mcmqlRDI8oet95wlnFM-zZ4Ksdc10rmjifhdViTCzI6CeQzegBbdAMwb5cXQDiyU8Z4RNxtWQ_lAth_TGpylkOIrP4AAxRbjVS8md-d9d-fAOUyoO-8lgna6tz1cW-3hA0aHBp-YzxSRrWYh2stNftzgsx5nA60hPtISC9VAU46pkHVfjUtb7bNggANwCa1QXHLdQONk65RsVdtxLnsUzbCs58_j6W6KbzP8GcGycTPWcsopfdXA_EJ7dyrZWN_tiIHOEaOdVvQXNF3m3hrGGSPmatSPlozoVFXQad21fX9BViut4EJKrVld7VP9Fc1_sF-jkolf>, why not share it?
> Share <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxdUcuO5CAM_JpwS8QjD3LgMNKqfyMi4EmYCRCB6d38_ZLu04wERi7b2FU2GmGL6VJnzEhus-B1ggrwNx-ACImUDGlxVvGZjZITq3rL5CCJy8tnAvDaHQpTAXKW9XBGo4vhzpec8Z7s6lOKFeaJMqYlWwfWwyTHFcBqO0g9je-uulgHwYCCJ6QrBiCH2hHP3IiPhj_qMdrh4cJX3EPGmtDlsmbU5rsz0df4Wa-PCVp4Ont_1eKusRpoS25dbjFdLmyNeBT0iwfrim_EnxeBho83aLQ_tdtChQ3qCmpzs6lu3nUC4hSnnFPBKwsq6NzxzojB9GLoh5FSMQHr5H5c_76epump3_iPIUlSZoPqrinG75qw3b1fkardUl9fgsNrgaDXA-xbVnzv5jXnskGAVHdmF42KjX0VeZzncZimt4xV94FRJsQ8k9raxloV1G_p_gMqWKyF>
> ? 2022 Caitlin Johnstone Unsubscribe <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxdUstuqzAQ_ZqwK8I25rHw4jaPirZJlChtmmyQsSfgBDAFk5Z8_TXJ6l7Jsj0zZ3ysc0ZwA7luB9bozjjjlpqhAVbDT1eCMdA6fQdtqiTDMQoi7EjmSxTRyFFdemoBKq5KZtoenKbPSiW4Uboe8RFG2HcKRmhGfSIzCRBGGQIh_QwHPIaQnmLqoQcr76WCWgCDK7SDrsEpWWFM003Inwle2CW4MqWqz7qoO2MBbtdnneHi4gpd2ToXI7O9SNXxrIT0_rUJWRh9gXpCZjC8IoE_hy9cXpKzHta7OV7Pki6pn6-CbE98v1Hr88fvcja_LW8X-j59bQ5fY26OV7N8WO4OdL07dElV3sSQBLYPHZTnL8_zYTUd31nZ2OarbSPwQmUvn6fjHhV8_6NOGzc7-n34fVjsumizf9Orl-O1GIKnp2_6Mb9Nb8-JSN4FyN32TTuKYQ9jj2CKfI94sYtdQajwCfVp4HkkBORGRTn8nq9i4ntVjv9Rw2mZyMGGWav1xQLyUYp7xZqU2rPqa2WGFOpRKfnwzzyG4C5bmkMNrR0OmXLDUOBbN4M4DmgYPvyyBlPkIULi2LHUUtuumv3v0V9GiM7J>
> 548 Market Street PMB 72296, San Francisco, CA 94104
>  <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxNkd1qxCAQhZ8mXgb_N7nwolD6GsHoJOtuoouObfP2NbstFETwzAzn-I2zCGvKh3mkguS8JjweYCJ8lQ0QIZNaIE_BGz4yPXDijfRsUAMJZVoywG7DZjBXII86b8FZDCme_QNnXJKrcVqPchi4cGrRzs12HBbnlQXKlouk6uVqqw8QHRj4hHykCGQzV8RH6cRbxz_aKXUuaN29d2k_FfFRcZ9KqtlBJ97_yh3Xp76DD3Vv-jPgr-hSRIjY1CWl82_BcMo5FVwxSQUde947oZwUSipNqbgA64frdnzfPl0n6b7y_n8Mko1boT3nnNK9Nayn2bPSYDS7fa8x4DFBtPMG_sUJX7CfwaYVIuS2BD9ZNEzLRk2Po1aXy4tLA6kYZUKMI2nWPrWpaJwNuIV4S9dYsMH6AY4ym2I>	

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From carl at newsfromneptune.com  Sat Mar 26 15:13:02 2022
From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 10:13:02 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_Colorado_Senate_approves_aborti?=
 =?utf-8?q?on_bill_without_limits=2C_governor_expected_to_sign?=
References: <1648307030648.359b8595-6066-4cec-be2b-51d90af37106@bf10x.hubspotemail.net>
Message-ID: <C256800F-D730-4479-8555-A3798F4C2E2B@newsfromneptune.com>



> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: Live Action News <info at liveaction.org>
> Subject: Colorado Senate approves abortion bill without limits, governor expected to sign
> Date: March 26, 2022 at 10:07:22 AM CDT
> To: cgestabrook at gmail.com
> Reply-To: info at liveaction.org
> 
>  <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_bJ2-TjXV1-WJV7CgX63V5DG8-5s8x8GW868vFw6RBGymW41m5N48X_QrWV9ycLq1mgcp_W7pGGgV3y-WVSN9lSRZ87VVm0N2y-b7W_PyBtW1hlczS62rcx-W8_CBy12rljZYV9Ztfv4drXS-N7dWCjgTJYJ2W26_bZR4r0_gtW9h-xs03qcpr3N95XyTn-F0vyW43f90v8VczG6W7QmqY81PKJRy3m521>
> Hi Mr. Estabrook, 
>  
> We hope that you are having a good Saturday!
>  
> Here are ten of our top news articles from last week picked for you:
>  <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgD1tW1GfqHr2j6MkVW318CSQ5pV3NyW3L0VsN7SPQWRW8k3VNz5KCGdVW3Wx1dK5CSDpGN36w0PdnKvhYW3zfpF06h2GVhW9cCvMV89z8k8Vsw4z81GC-CCW38Q4gh6SVmrHW5CzLPH6vVNBBN908y5Fs1hwjW55YyH26w900zVgDz2h5wQ0W_W6z4n6K4tSLnrW6z9-sB2jJgMlVPNjJC94Ljj3W4mRfK32gvx7yW6qTVqb3TtYK6N1lHbsLzNk8RW3sDFBX2G0KQkW8w59Zg9dQYW33lNl1>
> Colorado Senate Approves Abortion Bill Without Limits, Governor Expected to Sign?
>  <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgYjcW6_kzd_1wLMjqVP9qqV6KbcZyN2YM1wk3dG41W3RPT1R6RLRgpW6C7PsK1hJrwTW6ZGtzN2TwLplW461JFp5NH3xkVjxkVR4nQTg5W8F6VFV3YXyb_W4HhRXf1s9wNXN6QZ9R1LPGH0W6sX9dg6CGqZxW1Ltn2s5lGN2QW6CGz_P7bbpBFW8k79s67C9vYnW839xmh57r-n2W8dS1l64p2dkrW7WLC7S39pVtVW9fB5Vq6wdcwQVMyRZw8FmKkJW60th8g3tLHRWW8tt7bC68mbx62-R1>
>  
> The Act claims that every pregnant woman has a ?fundamental right? to have an abortion and that a human being in the womb ?does not have independent or derivative rights under the laws of the state.? The Act may force health care workers to participate in or commit abortions against their will and conscientious objections.
> Read more
>  <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgQCHW7Vr7nf93pjJLW84j2Bg6V6xKZVr17BQ9ldnN1W60lMnY1RrkR_W8x9XsV8fN4gGN78Bb6C2p0KHW5574KT47V9WJW8H-Sl0141D4dW3YCHxM6l4rPkW1r9HMj7X2WQxMbc1fD-MCwCW9lsF7f2y3SS8W9fMsfm2djcGhN2BtXq-pyZ-PW7m3Hy67XDJTtW1xF6Bf6RwvypW5FdWCy6w_PKcW4Gw8Wv8C5_KsW1qRZF33Gb0CPW1tFG9b1r8cLTW3mCL9p7nzGlyW8rH7DS1RQdrB3npj1>
>  
>  <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgM04W969XfR1hyKGVW3fpqgJ4qD_64W49GmrS19VQN7W5Z1ptB7rCGG0W4K6wGC28MX_4W4fnPrd2Str8BW77lkpy1lWVR2VyXfth47sNBwW8wts-D2VMhnFN5F7cn2tW0tTW6BF9By4nr2VWW3XBG7k1Bgm6DW8t4V0W7Nh2FnN8YcLFyC7kX7W438_2Q2vpYfFW1_NjLP2CPdH6W5Dyzrw5vDybKW1cQYG54-tpdSW39tQCN6Zkn1nW1nl1rq4kcLr-W8v25218gBFpSW3zt8fT7fPJXj31bh1>	
> Brothers Shuffled Between Foster Homes for Two Years Hope to Be Adopted Together <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgT7QW5Lcwdb9c-c3VW3JQ4h_1PN910W3Zn8f72v_-fvW7SbY8F4ZDY6FW1d08FF8qpk2XW4_gLMH5XX8TWW7vVr0C8jTDNFW2PfgwD6QcQwvW5ncCqg11GlSHW73NtzV3bKlsLW6tHsKB23p0CHW1ZDYHQ7vGH96W3wCbz59k8N3-W16B0Hf2vcm3CW3LfsRP7VjHqQN1LcZ38M3Mc8W8xbnxT1Dr77KW675Tcb5lmBTFW95cX5X75GSZcN877J_1c9lMmW6V27P154QQSPW65SD478k0LF931rs1>
>  
> Some of the boys? answers gave a heartbreaking insight into what their lives may have been like up until now; they say they want parents who will be nice to them, and hope for a Rottweiler that can protect them.
> Read more
>  <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgZ70N9htQ-rg_-VjW8D8lpj3FQC1WN8VKm3mTFq0WW23TbjD6KgnGxW36Yrdy6VS1LGW6HNcNk4KJQskW8jSRNt4zy6rlW3L3qnw8rtPS0VHfk_T4_vZV0W5G8mRR7JhNBlW6XPv-v2lCfxNW54X4MG7QrBgyW3Ghs4n8zzCySW5CfwwW4yq7VTVSmXQM573XcTMdT6cXHlW9HW8zH3948q4VL-TT4Vy8-1FFVVgtsbd2d7bvGW7rb8NQ6C6-5BW7lCQh56cWyTJW35j73Q1WWX4T3l3D1>
>  
>  <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgVT8W6l7Lwb4m7s6wW7YjD6v6YrJ_8W6G84YZ6m746vVrNCRs2kdhGJW3-bHXG6c7FDJW5_W-kf6vF9PhW4l_Zdt9fnDWvW1BLPTX6dqQ4kW3PQ3lV2qHH_sW8LnlXR4yY2zMVsv_ps3TWMj7W2Z7j-s7K_KyfW3XhGLz5rbK85W6LJ2J47FFMw5W6lXrfz1vzZcvW71nJyp7rSZ4HN1PnPP15r_NjW3YX2l-627GhvN1n94xQWDx-8N20G41z9BT_ZVdmZlM2h26xgW3jyL904y0-zc24f1>	
> Teacher Disciplined After Down Syndrome Remark: ?I Would Have Killed It? <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgNd9W9jnLnB4Cj-mqW24D2lV78H80yW5g-ZGk8ClsX7W4p8Pqt5NWk0zW11nJC46yVHFBW59XTXy3jBnHZW7GymFC67KmV4W3G7hXd7yYh9fVYTFgM4d0dgWW1yCTz81dqC5_N4HTgyxtFv4lW8djpcr3r85wtN3c4ZJ9ww1sjW29GX387-lxnlW5s_Ydc2lDXfSW6B6zQy6D-gspW5QQZrw1mJPbpW55bqhB4SClT5W4jf5W02GYZvkW47vSsh7p72syW6K75lM6FBrNLW33VzPm3l5cJK29b1>
>  
> The mother of a child with Down syndrome posted a video on TikTok, saying she treats her child the same as any other child. The teacher responded with a comment saying, ?Brave. If my test came back with that I would have killed it. If I were I?d want mum to do the same.?
> Read more
>  <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgDfxW3GfPqm5YBFs3W2PlPGz7pzGygW42Kp-D7_w5gQW2wVQ3j9ljg5jW80lyWJ3Sl3bNW8TYqxP6ZvzsQW6f0VGV5Hv3_mW8Vm8kc7TcsTMW7HkC7z2fsVPvVy64VN4VLMb_W4X4Mpj907QBYW5BNyGV3vQ8lxW1tZZM88JtWvRW7f17M92JMyStVl_hql5gZRf5W9blVtv5Vf00JW63QZ6h215y13W4cS9Lq3DRjQWW2BSn4D3FkgVKW1HDMhK8nPcWNW1fmk515tmwrBW45XBV58NWzKJ3dcn1>
>  
>  <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgJCbW6K9Mml2vtwy6W2qTMh940wrSmW8_jkWW3bcV_VW2y9gY42CgYm2W6wHn-L1GDg2fW9jDX7q4KxpHfW66P9ZG4XXRcJW7DG-6P1h068LW6l63bL28_kKJVhdqNJ8mtBCqW55wX-p53M8dQW3RP8C-3WhbT7W6H4-4n4hStyLN8WLP2LhNxP5W7322Z617VQr5W4gcvDq6b5Rr2W74YNl31lPpmxW1yDg2R4Fps-hVkQ4bC7GqtksW1H4bW_8m-f2zW24vgnZ9k0kSMW8RySr23-sQ3H31y41>	
> Abandoned Baby Found Alive After Hours-Long Search? <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgW2dW6fvqXg5VpngwVJtpc-8YMGVkW3mgrdH8MSLmWVR1LMN9fnvDmW7JGdg86cL3CXW5FJNkw53czV-W55WBSb8byB0MW6W8_vg1_Zpj8W1MtW374VHBnlW72YGgh8nNDkdVv7MLG319ffxW8k2nWf1-cxb3VNDdKf6W4wlGW5K4hff8R-7FGVQ6-pv37TL3kW1r56Wd5xXyq0Vhkm393_D_NlVxKKMt6d1Ty3W4CQ1fL7WWYZfW3WN7Lk1LRSf_W60pdhZ4pDK6MW6r_f906BZBlc3h4F1>
>  
> Police and first responders rescued an eight-month-old infant left abandoned in a field in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. The infant was found ?alive and unharmed? after an hours-long search on the ground and via a helicopter overhead.
> Read more
>  <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgXL2W3zrqHH8GHf8qW77Vs0F7ZZxYMW3015Pg5mLJtbW43ZpV1713nSMW5M4dGl7gPdX0N4hgSTMxsQk9N8m6l60qQK4BW5R6RTR2kfT1NW7s5v9w5q2kLBW6KQ9zh8QXjcPW76Lmc78ddYfWW56CNpK6X1PMGVdc6GK3s1SS8W367BLN7yg_-rN21NpKT3PR5pW8WNg7y6QhbjnW9g736s36PVLlW6nHthv1jDDPnN1Wb1RFy89xjW2GpGGm6NMSGYW46Mr477l2k_9W44L9Jk3plXWG3j6s1>
>  
>  <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7Cg-RmW4ckMpl3M4nzWMKhzQNWWJR6VxtBjp5KlwN8W5f9s_Z2gpxdlW5nXz5P2j4JK7W2gkwbs6r5m4DW8tc4G723KG7FN2kycGYBfWS2W5WqLPG7FqftVW5st-dg5rxgfhW4SYcQh4CzZ3fW6NXjyG57ZvJ0W7y7tP94x5YtDW99cXRp359wTgW79QKw26_Wh9WW7yWywT2Kbf3pW1bNMqM2g4LtkW24Gb0s2WRSZgW5PLpsv3BdtrdW8h8QW6416SF9W4HhWtf8M9KdHVstkL87kr6hz3fbC1>	
> Maternity Ward Closures Across the Country Pose a Danger to Women? <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgPnKV1LbqY2Xr9JWW5T-8WD7s38P9W63stQn55xFK-W3YnRN-89TgsrW48fM187Qk9jnW9f1xRZ2369qRN2dwd1q-g_CLN3QlmTQ3R5dCW5X9TGP692ZZsW2c-V9h13Q0m0W7xRrFv8smcpvW5S-VJp2XGrVQW5H9VG04rfSZnW8Q2XxG3YzqGMW3flN8s7J-mMYW9kn7_91L49n7W12rnn895n8WmW8jS_YL26R7y1W2GxWfj6gnglVW3CPLTp990Mx_W37MFqL6fbMYDW5Sx6Nd9m2RNc3jjH1>
>  
> The motivations driving maternity ward closures risk the lives of both mother and baby, as in the case of Shantel Jones. She went into labor, and planned to go to her community hospital. When she was told that the hospital was no longer offering maternity services, Jones and her mother began the 30-mile drive to another town.
> Read more
>  <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgRbZW8XXdct92QF_rW2JKpPm61YKXvW5X0WpM5dy7qCW7n6s6R3mDdS2MSrm4WpjgTtVZ6J1K2G51v0V8Tk8F7skGvFW5sv4Zq2mMlcBW4qT6rD2JH34RVycxJ945hN6-VNn6Q45TnMHbW1zph7Q6Zry9dW8-TryV1bKgzpW8hzJ8P4_pMrqW7HxG1p62V_RxW3fFKLH7xdFnRN5kHYfYc0mKhVpM2Nt4Rdz61W45LdB76bYr2DW6hyQkB3cJGJ0Vt1SFB8nQ79KW4gfTnc1RXX3j3q2p1>
>  
>  <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgWypW89wHMm95HgHsW7_MHFv3X5-BcW9bRyQH94PVZjW7bYsYD8Rz4kjMKHqgWfdb0wW8KcD4R62m1B9W1tkSjc5WKCB5W7s31z37h7H36W7VDJ513N0yRYW2C-J_L8ws3MGW3RfDWQ65CWSYW8DdMdd2MdlvdW8hkHK31ZhNlQW6bktG68czF26W5cPBY34_KGPkVb61PG4qX6yCW4vr9cn3V1zH4W1nWcQ77Scxc7N3-XZw4JRhCRW3ZVJps5ntd4dW7pV24K72cDvyW1719fb97wHQ039Ls1>	
> She Miscarried Her Son at 5 Months, but Believes That ?One Day, We Will Be Reunited??
>  <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgCq-W32b5t39lBJYHW7s8wD_8HNqrgW9g8VZj3V7rlKW1xBLbP6sRNglW3Sjlb614HwHhVzldpS2dccfmW5gghsw2z8gXYW2k3RgV8Y15nPW1VMktN3rqp63W7t51334KXdRJVp2BYF3H6ZcWW3HQHRM6rRfkqW7YG5lb2NWDWhN4X_5QrX__ThW8gB8Ts72HvhGW6XFXGM3f50GbW8PGbDK8DzT6wW6vzGxM1Tpg-GW3fw1TS5mgQ3_W58X2h41SHZCqW4-xnps2_8szVV2jVB12-Wnjt31331>
>  
> Vicki Wilkerson, busy mom of two, had planned for four children but delayed another pregnancy to focus on aiding her son with developmental disabilities. When she learned she was expecting her third child, she was elated. She never imagined she?d face a devastating loss. 
> Read more
>  <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgY68W1Q5hXB6flCVJW2VtTX23yklSbW1q8Lw12KlMSNW1FGHQV88mTl4W3tHR7X454chBW2MldGx1fnGmMW7gFZDq7-PVG7W7l9Z818f-QMcW899Bcy3D2mxCW24M53Y7qN77MW4B7FDq1xPgsbDWz9ktdJz6W2xVvM62WhRrcW55-2Xf2dSd_rW3xl_PZ6tj1vxW9fLvdb4mL7YRW783Ynl22C9mxW6-dp_x5qfcYKW2cLkJC6LzLvyW9kRKJ16tFkQXW32G9r34KchngW14q5p825W36W3ljn1>
>  
>  <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgF8cW9cWr933Pw5cNW92RkZG6zC4-xW3h35gx70Wx97N8M3ZVnr0SZBW74vlPG1f_dJ_W2_yDTg3-_wZ5W5wFDYJ2p2thsW3RdffC1WtPmpW28wrz_2PPz1qVGwjRV9ks8lHN1xb8NwPV9QXW3p_DPW53FbccVcD2Hk1RDbVJW5lbvNY91xrKLVPNJMs5rXBFWVNFcKP2FfsL5W2VQ7rz9634CsW7wzbRn6zvFbWW5v_-44854fNvW8qrCJF5rHhH9W2gTnRr3M9K-kW8XB5Lp6Txvvs3h5c1>	
> Uyghur Farmer Dies in Concentration Camp After Saving Wife and Child From Forced Abortion? <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgJ4XW1WVYss7g4fbVW7XzyVS7wgCgkW7ctByb1Xk0hXW2G8clc2-G-6kW2YqkRy2Qwc99W6MlT4N75wQVLW8Rskzd8SYmtjN8ZS4KzTdN_RW4wRFRH4xDXs9W6bxLqW96YxGKW5S8zKD1-0nWSV9KWV-6N1zLLW5nSdjw3Jnd47W7CTTDP3LYZ1zW143cBX7n8fqgW2SvVLN9bZxLxW7Y8KN36NdWK3W6ZB7Yc4SCvk5W6xnvVd5LWVHYVPF05p6NS1DtW7JqGTt4lXV0nW6qqQGN43G8y73d1n1>
>  
> By preventing his wife from undergoing a forced abortion, the government said he was guilty of anti-government action, religious extremism, and disrupting the social order.
> Read more
>  <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgD6rW70fCJ_1tFsvWW8jt4MV7cGCnpW5zvm9F38V9CxW5TtRjh8K8mMjW2X66JC4l9lJ5W4QWhBW340v5FN82tdRpC6btwW7xnwmq2RVpVrW8l6Qcl1V8vcLVWQp1x6vqxw0N38ZTVmqk7xmW67PpDy6rMfH1W5g1tWY1tkdW5W8DL-nv5r0GF7W231cNj6kcrdWW12XJDR5zp_jPW4Z4Ld_7FG3WNW78TPkb5P46JRW2NPqWt864qscW3h0SJB6xVzx0W7-t1z41DzfqRW2D10HH6YMqd239kL1>
>  
>  <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgSMLN7fLwnkwFLd5W4FRTYR5LhLDvW7jWyvj79tvBqW5hhxt9264F_tW2-gJZ75S5b72W1gZGMW40pNGXW7hK6xY8H0HqKW6X10cX1pt3zfW5c7qyh4rVd12W4gLpfw16R-BSW3TYgpC3hjvFSW95XXn01p4ngsN2C8B_ngTSCRW84c-0v2H5Qy_W3Y8J7q4GqHX4W7mBxhT2Xh_wSN28Y98m1VdSmW71THwL7NSFLVW76FmNl5X68mkW1VQzXF1Xkt_WW43t-qz8dSCT7W3zhBgf2wyywf3m-m1>	
> Polish Social Worker Irena Sendler Saved Thousands of Children From the Nazis, and Still Inspires Today <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgVSjW7TBfBW7jB7V1W5PBTdl8Mhp6bV8pQxr77RqsrW1jsvvp3z-5MHN3yLtVbfh8zGW90lC1b2sKqMFW1gtgHB1kbzvHW7hxW418R35q2W91tcGD72yrMTW8JGTsL8mqb4kW7WVsxv99RjsmW2WS91l8YrG1GW88sG_b1pWZNjV3z_dJ5fqz0ZW5ywf7s9f2TyHW2sBfFz43KRxqW7KYX705JzRlxW1RLn6z360GS7W8GwL764byx0nW45_p9Q7RH3CJVlBjYk2kdPj5W1L94d-4hQ8F53gN-1>
>  
> Her story is truly amazing and significant for our times. A young Polish Catholic social worker in Warsaw during WWII, Sendler saved 2,500 Jewish children from the Nazis by smuggling them out of the Warsaw Ghetto in creative ways.
> Read more
>  <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgJjQW3y5xq88kMMCPVss18h6t2m3FW9499VY18VgXLW6Bn6tG4StnGFW144kKN1zxrpMVXNQLD5Wtk8BW8LDr524f1yKWW1VLlK82WY_WLW6F-D743jNDwdW2T35n91w57RgW7qpjqZ8F0nlHW1rKSVn3fp14MW1GYPTM8CnBhwN46t5FxjcC_WW7LzhX67xzsykW6cJ9rf4x6D03W2y93WK3WN4XpW8lXjMV2ybSWbW314z3V2N5h_wW1ZXD9G1dxBR8W6b8SH632l58HW3-pj_s5n2mQS3kKD1>
>  
>  <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgTWBVxWWyn3y-TM0W6BPk5g6rYLFPW90_rtQ43ZfryW7MG7GQ7GPclTW8yKsyd8vJw0DW1L12qJ1wzXr5W3-Wsl24-Yzc5W1wWjgf91bx7TW9llxcQ1LP7JJW5bDQrw469pSjW66Kqsw8cHB8fW401T9j1LBw-6W78F13P7M6rnqN3Xr1t4WZpQyW5--K1r7k2RcHW7sQbZN17qsl8W28Hj-c2sJn9cW1cn64C66V-T7W2cdX5z75-Q5DW15NGvK10q7cfW7qbjWC2T2Js7W7by-rv4rT0h_3czx1>	
> Abortion Wasn?t Something He Cared About? but a Baby?s Scream Changed Everything <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgBpYVvHcZw8nfgg4N1ySMWhfMDQ3W5Tk_XL48y__GW3dwKW96SfSTgW8yVhxx4wTWYVV2D2xk35MBRJW3LtXkX6Wl7PVW6WXKCm91VntHN5ywhDwT8WSQW1lmSjW3qhC3YW92vbTw8cmjtVW60Z_kf5K_q9qW5bh6PJ8Qp_wFW8nFsp568D1rcW4TQr9z8wlKKTN2yl72wBQGWbW5ccWr_4Tg_bKVt-wPV3Jl7NkW2XDJhC3kNwWxW79d0Y240sccqW1vNTHx6GsNYDW2Z5gmY21DmGR3qfV1>
>  
> Joel Enge is living proof that a single changed mind and a single transformed heart can have a powerful impact on the lives of countless others.
> Read more
>  <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cB2-TkQV1-WJV7CgLQ3W2rKR0D6fLdXWW8JyjTz3hVlXsMT5jk0_77xKW6mrQCT3gc3wfN4Wfc9nVXpcJW3jTjnc2xy8__W6SkmpD5jVWNqN1f-BNy1MW-FW59Ynk086d6T5W8VQ9Zl7x3K94W3mBTVX3G-4lLW3SpGqj36qmT9W4N3jQP5mYsYlW4fRhKL4Vk6rpVVzC1v4RJdCNW38R6c36xr585W4-ftW417hNbwW5f6GRH6lwn5BW7qCmwc2F-h9gW3Rg_xc4JgZWfW3BVd3y3LTqwmW59b0244RMCzv39H41>
>  
>  <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cV2-Tl5V1-WJV7CgGwRW6yt8xH8wny2_VxRHY68Mx8pLN7W9gk2R4wSxW5YGtFX1wRhldW4Tg9Fx1wd02CW7lFY6w6sW2WTW5JrPQQ7p_1BTW6_9Dcl28n5mJW1wR6DT6GNs4bMjrfxGk1FKrW4yGr2_3xq80VV-nJQR2bKgXhW2Y0n3D18ZK_GW4Hvfrn8PxCg8W5Dc9K03SqGtxW9bL-MS6XpTNBV-TY5S7FvkK_V5R8CC55Y8TqW8xnXDZ3ZHsMNW3Snrnb4fQHgrW2fmRXV1_5pjxW27QYw884gZQ2W6Q4Wsm1ZMRcPW63hCLG8jYj2J2Rm1>	
> Just Who Is Planned Parenthood Targeting With This Ice Cream-Turned-Condom Truck? <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cV2-Tl5V1-WJV7CgHT3W7z3bCn4krC0HW88-N0y6hLjM5N1ZwwWcppdsXVqmJd84CKx4dW7zlwM01Qn7vXW4yHmHs6HklqRW2TtDYK5QtXPDW5KSXlX3TDzVBW18HyD-8dY3QrW8Q4MrN9hYxy1W5YGgYW2N0c0FW7xPZDS14D4prW42lklb3lsbj0W9hP1ZX3BKqSgVxK61t3h-bd-W8tJDX42sQMQfW7Sndpp5-kmPvW1XPGSj5C3wH3N6mtwYhHZW0NW18Y2Rs8KcY3NM9Y3DXmbs9cVc5LtP4K_PM7W12b07f80BFYRW33hbLC6XbNDK37Bz1>
>  
> It is unclear if there is any actual ice cream on board ? but it is clear that Planned Parenthood is using symbols associated with childhood to draw people to their condom truck.
> Read more
>  <https://cpkky04.na1.hubspotlinks.com/Ctc/ON+113/cpKKY04/VVNqW55sLxz0W8G64PJ7Yf6mBVcSh174H65VxN4nN_cV2-Tl5V1-WJV7CgLcxN11GsT53KmHbVfysL678FNStW3npV1R92M-3_W5-PjLW4HPqcsW1C6n2l8PfkvLVLm9jt94p6kYW7NMx-j1Fh58tW4nXvL_2PJPmrW84L99T4K5XdRW6JHnG38MCNhyW7cLfYX7L4L7VW95h6cC9b04FGW4RV5LD70F2hLW3lTq3J1c063lV5BSd74n323mW2Q_WGS8mflBFVqHsn98HkLs_W4JXvMV4jwLRsW8-lp7l3fc52CW69bp2H8_rq46N68_MH1d2_tSW8jDb__6T951GW2KQ7-J3NdbBSW44Q9V14T96mj35xx1>
>  
> Thank you for joining us in this important work! Have a good weekend!
>  
> For life,
>  
> The Live Action News Team
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From naiman.uiuc at gmail.com  Mon Mar 28 19:20:11 2022
From: naiman.uiuc at gmail.com (Robert Naiman)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 15:20:11 -0400
Subject: [Peace-discuss] DK: With Bernie/Ro Backing Jayapal/DeFazio,
 Will @just_security Fix Its Line on Yemen WPR?
In-Reply-To: <CALMNhNQbwa0HHnwiyZ1maXA5hBUHOro9ESQcbK2Dfvst5+u-Ow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALMNhNQbwa0HHnwiyZ1maXA5hBUHOro9ESQcbK2Dfvst5+u-Ow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMNhNS9=Zg4Sr__5uqgTfm9ppW52K7xcho1qXey5TP5+AYO-A@mail.gmail.com>

Please vote in the poll.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/3/28/2088673/-With-Bernie-Ro-Backing-Jayapal-DeFazio-Will-just_security-Fix-Its-Line-on-Yemen-WPR

With Bernie/Ro Backing Jayapal/DeFazio, Will @just_security Fix Its Line on
Yemen WPR?
<https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/3/28/2088673/-With-Bernie-Ro-Backing-Jayapal-DeFazio-Will-just_security-Fix-Its-Line-on-Yemen-WPR>

On Friday, Senator Bernie Sanders and Rep. Ro Khanna joined CPC Chair
Pramila Jayapal and Rep. Peter DeFazio in pledging to introduce and pass a
new Yemen War Powers Resolution
<https://www.commondreams.org/news/2022/03/25/progressives-demand-end-us-involvement-7th-anniversary-saudi-led-war-yemen>
 to fulfill President Biden?s broken promise
<https://www.cfr.org/article/joe-biden> to end unconstitutional U.S.
participation in the Saudi war/blockade in Yemen.

It will be instructive to see if the ?progressive? national security
website ?Just Security? - weighed down as it is by former Administration
officials - improves its line on the Yemen War Powers Resolution now.

In a piece published the day before
<https://www.justsecurity.org/80806/still-at-war-the-united-states-in-yemen/>
marking
the seventh anniversary of the war, Luke Hartig and Oona Hathaway took a
spectacularly anemic line on this question. Perhaps, like the British
economist John Maynard Keynes, they would like to ?read the data
differently now? [as Larry Summers might say] in the light of new
information.

Here?s what Hartig and Hathaway wrote about this on March 24. After noting
that in 2018, Senator Sanders introduced a resolution pursuant to the War
Powers resolution calling for the removal of U.S. forces from hostilities
in Yemen that had not been authorized by Congress, and that in 2019 a
resolution to end U.S. support for Saudi operations in Yemen passed both
houses of Congress only to be vetoed by then-President Trump, Hartig and
Hathaway wrote [my emphasis]:

President Biden?s announcement that the United States would no longer
provide ?offensive? support for Saudi military operations in Yemen *likely
brings this chapter to a close, for now*. But continued servicing of Saudi
jets and other ?defensive? support *could reignite such legal concerns*.

When they wrote, ?for now,? did they mean, ?for today, March 24?? When they
wrote ?could reignite,? did they mean, ?on tomorrow, March 25?? Does Bernie
?raising his voice? count as ?reigniting such concerns??

Hartig and Hathaway also wrote [my emphasis]:

The end of (most) U.S. support for the Saudi-led coalition also *brings to
a close* some of the key concerns under international law...the Saudis and
Emirates have been accused of various war crimes in the course of the
brutal war against the Houthis...The end of offensive military support for
the Saudi-led coalition *helps ease concerns about ongoing U.S. complicity
in those war crimes*?

This begs the question: who elected or appointed Hartig and Hathaway to
make this determination, that such ?concerns? have been ?brought to a
close? or ?eased?? How many divisions do Hartig and Hathaway control? Who
died and made them Pope?

Finally, Hartig and Hathaway claim:

At the end of the day, it seems likely that more of the onus for resolving
the Yemen conflict will lie with the administration than the Hill.

Care to revisit this now, @just_security? Get on the bus. Stand shoulder to
shoulder with Bernie/Ro and Jayapal/DeFazio for the Yemen War Powers
Resolution now, and all your past crimes will be forgiven. Go and sin no
more.
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From carl at newsfromneptune.com  Wed Mar 30 16:21:28 2022
From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 11:21:28 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Meta-banned column
Message-ID: <5821A49B-3AF1-494A-9E97-97DB3CF429DB@newsfromneptune.com>

https://thecradle.co/Article/columns/8480

From jbn at forestfield.org  Wed Mar 30 22:42:33 2022
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 17:42:33 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Negotiated end to NATO war on Russia (via Ukraine
 by proxy)?
Message-ID: <505a27fb-9efe-ad62-f041-81b8fc16cb4d@forestfield.org>

RT has some interesting reports which you might not have noticed due to RT's 
censorship and anti-Russian sanctions in the US.

Aired yesterday:

https://rumble.com/vyxyof-russia-receives-draft-deal-proposing-neutral-non-aligned-ukraine.html 
-- Russia receives draft deal proposing neutral non-aligned Ukraine


Aired today:

https://rumble.com/vz0lvx-crosstalk-on-ukraine-negotiated-end.html -- CrossTalk on 
Ukraine: Negotiated End?

https://rumble.com/vz19zz-52-of-french-people-believe-russia-on-origins-of-ukraine-war-poll.html 
-- 52% of French people believe Russia on origins of Ukraine war (in other words, 
propaganda isn't doing the work of fooling the French that this NATO war against 
Russia via Ukraine didn't start a month ago)

https://rumble.com/vz0y4i-global-impact-of-sanctions-on-russia.html -- Global impact 
of sanctions on Russia

and relatedly...

https://rumble.com/vyxc4f-truck-drivers-continue-to-protest-in-spain.html -- Truck 
drivers continue to protest in Spain (a direct consequence of losing Russian fuel)

From jbn at forestfield.org  Thu Mar 31 00:33:44 2022
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 19:33:44 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] ADL Defends Ukraine's Neo-Nazis: They "Don't Attack
 Jews or Jewish Institutions"
Message-ID: <cca943bb-d117-897b-adbc-d3c57dcac911@forestfield.org>

See the article for screenshots from ADL & the Algemeiner's respective websites.

https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=62981

> The Anti-Defamation League, the leading pro-Israel lobbying group in America,
> published a Q&A defending Ukraine's neo-Nazi groups on the grounds that they
> "don't attack Jews or Jewish institutions."
> 
> In an article titled, "Why is Putin Calling the Ukrainian Government a Bunch of
> Nazis?"[1] the ADL interviewed David Fishman, professor of Jewish History at The
> Jewish Theological Seminary, to explain why Ukraine's neo-Nazis aren't so bad.
> 
> "There are neo-Nazis in Ukraine, just as there are in the U.S., and in Russia for
> that matter. But they are a very marginal group with no political influence and
> who don't attack Jews or Jewish institutions in Ukraine," Fishman said.
> 
> "Russia has for years highlighted the activity of a marginal group of Ukrainian
> ultra-nationalists as a way of trying to stigmatize all of Ukraine," Fishman
> claimed. "Yes, some members of these ultra-nationalist groups have used Nazi
> insignia, made Hitler salutes, and used antisemitic rhetoric, but they are
> politically insignificant and in no way representative of Ukraine. The political
> parties which the ultra-nationalists support received just over 2 percent of the
> vote in the 2019 elections. Ukraine is a flawed democracy, but unquestionably a
> democracy, and in no way a Nazi regime."
> 
> Ukraine's neo-Nazis are the good type of neo-Nazis because they're funded[2] and
> armed[3] by Israeli billionaires.

[1] 
https://web.archive.org/web/20220325012214/https://www.adl.org/blog/why-is-putin-calling-the-ukrainian-government-a-bunch-of-nazis
[2] https://archive.ph/WQS5Y
[3] https://electronicintifada.net/content/israel-arming-neo-nazis-ukraine/24876

From carl at newsfromneptune.com  Thu Mar 31 03:13:16 2022
From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 22:13:16 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: "Regime Change" Doesn't Work, You Morons
References: <20220331011152.2.84878b812b67ea82.a98y0tse@mg2.substack.com>
Message-ID: <054B2F78-5694-468E-AA33-D8B851056E05@newsfromneptune.com>



> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: Matt Taibbi <taibbi at substack.com>
> Subject: "Regime Change" Doesn't Work, You Morons
> Date: March 30, 2022 at 8:11:52 PM CDT
> To: cgestabrook at gmail.com
> Reply-To: Matt Taibbi <reply+ui4u6&692a&&035802f7ef3dcdcdd89ad3df575a7348b91f7106643b4fa4cad66f7909f18b1a at mg1.substack.com>
> 
> 
>  <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxVkktz4jAMxz8NuSVjOw-cgw9toW0YIBe2wCnjhwjeJHaaOMuGT7-mnHbkx8j-S5rRT5I7qO0ws96OLngclZt7YAZuYwvOwRBMIwyVVozkOKMkUCxRmKY00GN1GQA6rlvmhgmCfhKtltxpax56jBISXFmWKym8LZMUUkwF4QgESASXjCh6SZ9F-aQ0GAnMmnaueq5V0LKrc_24iF8W5N0vx7UQOhonMToum0jazr_2fg9Q6w5CeeWmhlBZGI0Lb3ZowtlOYWcHa3yad2cbMIt4BfMGS_I1n0jbFL_tXB7WpFwVY9G1V_VWZLvDGZWrc1Ieir87fdP8tL97nZafX3p7WN_2q0Jv3zZ3dSx0qTc3Ee_R9rRpz8c94sd8KgyKXrfH5a_1q9mnG37-_vyOG_mn_5DnUHyMZFfiex52xWVJ9bQLNCOIEBTHGGGMUxKRiCZ0SQXFRGRL4JREPKczciMsEtTV5L8mBAOTNXhXDNY2XlA_kPz8eCKVv7vJaDdXYLhoQT1huSfxH3xVDQYGPwmq4o7hLKEZzQmOSZI96XiaKSZxknrsvrSyPsqwJ5B_CYnDTQ>
> "Regime Change" Doesn't Work, You Morons <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxVkktz4jAMxz8NuSVjOw-cgw9toW0YIBe2wCnjhwjeJHaaOMuGT7-mnHbkx8j-S5rRT5I7qO0ws96OLngclZt7YAZuYwvOwRBMIwyVVozkOKMkUCxRmKY00GN1GQA6rlvmhgmCfhKtltxpax56jBISXFmWKym8LZMUUkwF4QgESASXjCh6SZ9F-aQ0GAnMmnaueq5V0LKrc_24iF8W5N0vx7UQOhonMToum0jazr_2fg9Q6w5CeeWmhlBZGI0Lb3ZowtlOYWcHa3yad2cbMIt4BfMGS_I1n0jbFL_tXB7WpFwVY9G1V_VWZLvDGZWrc1Ieir87fdP8tL97nZafX3p7WN_2q0Jv3zZ3dSx0qTc3Ee_R9rRpz8c94sd8KgyKXrfH5a_1q9mnG37-_vyOG_mn_5DnUHyMZFfiex52xWVJ9bQLNCOIEBTHGGGMUxKRiCZ0SQXFRGRL4JREPKczciMsEtTV5L8mBAOTNXhXDNY2XlA_kPz8eCKVv7vJaDdXYLhoQT1huSfxH3xVDQYGPwmq4o7hLKEZzQmOSZI96XiaKSZxknrsvrSyPsqwJ5B_CYnDTQ>
> How many examples of "regime change" blowing up in our faces do we really need before realizing that it's a disastrous policy? Will we really try it with a nuclear-armed adversary?
> 	Matt Taibbi
>  <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxNkEuOwyAMhk9TdhPFhqRkwWI2cw3Ew01RkxCBo1FuP7TZjGT5IRvs_wuOac7lNHuuLN7O8rmT2ei3LsRMRRyVik3R4ASjRhGNiqAHLVK1j0K0urQYLgeJ_fBLCo5T3t7z0CsUTwNwx8mHEMBJmFwMEhxJ5acRnX_I-7XUHTHRFsjkbTnt7lIUi3ky7_Umv2_406wevrILry7ktZV7yY-0UMtwlP0gv1bH_MUueZ9EMtgj9lJCDwADdthppe_aa0A_3slp7Nykz54r3VS_ztj9_14UE2ZqpS85v9rA_Fb56TSRtsX12BKfljbnF4qXfr4gfojYmTYqDW60jg2MSo96QpCoxktwAzQASjU0km11zO3VZq7z_wBUYod_>	Mar 31
>  <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxVUsuunDAM_ZphByIPSFhkcVWpv4GcxMNEAwlNQm_p19cMq0qR7fh1LB87qLikfJo9ldpcYq7njibid1mxVszNUTDPwRs-sVHzxhvpmR50E8r8zIgbhNXUfGCzH3YNDmpI8cpnveTNy1ilHOA0cu2F1RYk650cmdOCOzsN4w0Khw8YHZoU13PeIfhmNa9a9_IQXw_-k57zsSuHLRXcu3NpI1fYYEHST6zudWnqU9OD__h1G-JrScnT_7nOe05LxlLCbyR_qYg7VdwQfLhAhguGhD3cGymeW-wHa52WrQUQrRQK22lgugVvBbeo1KRlV0QHG_xNEb7LPRf1uHfxMT9Dlo85jU-nFIq2V4K1Ujpqpaxvn0o4FBOlyHFmUvA_tK9uj0sTDO8574VgPWNs4B3vtNRKW824HRWC5h1M-uxrwYfst4X_t6MmG0fgFWxO6U0Jy0XXJ0ITzqS3I4Z6zhjBruhvIut9DR9q5wUjZroSP0M1bJR61BNngia9mSOmB8aFHOgkCNonqoqmQrA2_AMw6MRF>	
> Not long ago, candidate Joe Biden?s most troubling behavioral tendency was the surprise outburst of belligerence. Campaigning, he?d challenge questioners to push-up contests, jam fingers in the sternums even of supporters, and plunge into rambling monologues about leg hairs and chain-fights. 
> 
> Now, the president?s face is often a mask of terror, like a man unsure of how he came to be standing in the middle of an intersection. Mental cars racing past, he met the press <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwtUduOrSAM_ZrtGwYQHXzgYV7ObxguVclWMFCP8e-nzp6EtPS22qzlLcKSy22OXLF5zIT3ASbBVTdAhNKcFcoUg5GjGLRsglFB6F43sU5zAdht3AyWE5rjdFv0FmNOT7_gSjarsdBBGGHkQfZqsHacA3Du3aCCn-XsP0vtGSIkDyan7Z4OG0OzmRXxqK_u-yX_0buuq73WiLBmOqld8n9KuhJhjmlhJeed4noA-BUqK3RYeVdKSS4lOd49f03mr8TczY4CNQZIyNzjmE0pn8k_gLgCm2P1dmM32MIIpmPuDAsgYTTRPLi86wQXQvSyla1W-ks7LaQbvsBq2dpR3xwrvBTfF9nW01W0_t36vDfF-AUodHT4mxqWh8ffCtE4kd_PFPGeIFm3QfgwjB-ZfjmfFkhQSL4wWTRiUHrQoxSdVMOHUpKgF7JTPWlFq0OmqWTQRufiDwJ-qog> Monday, to clarify a statement made last week about Vladimir Putin: ?For God?s sake, this man cannot remain in power.? Many interpreted this as a call for regime change. Not at all, Biden said, reading from a large-print cheat sheet <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwtkUmu5CAMhk9T7BKBMxS1YPE2fY2IwZ2gSiACo1Ju386rlpAtT_LPZ28J11wuc-ZK4jYLXSeahJ-6IxEW0SqWJQYDLzVrEMGMQelJi1iXvwXxsHE3VBqKs7k9eksxp7tfyRHEZiblnVXyKV2AOahJSzeFpwcFIUyzmr9LbQsRk0eT034tp41B7GYjOutj-HnAH36fz6ePKeCJbBL1Pvftzflb6l3OZQ_s7YGFVdypVrsz75GivyMXeazzG1rq6oZI3dkopq60WqPtCv-kvGvnQI6zGqDf6NhFNCAB5DAoqZSaoIdej_qpnVbg5idaDb196UtSxccojxX62lwl698s8BDF-BU5dCXnNzesN67fCtNa2B8tRboWTNbtGL4g6XuNX7TLigkLXyksloyaRz3rF7C-8T85Jj0pGMaJT8KrQ-apZMhG5-I_jjOhuw> ? this reportedly happened ? that reminded him to say he was merely expressing ?moral outrage,? and ?not articulating a change in policy.? When he ran out of pre-prepared remarks, he drifted back to danger, saying:
> 
> It?s more an aspiration than anything.  He shouldn?t be in power.
> 
> The AP writeup <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwtUU2vpCAQ_DV600iLiAcOL9nMeZPdu2mgx0dGwfCRif9-8c0mpKG7mlR3lcFMW4iXOkPK7R3WfJ2kPL3TTjlTbEuiuDqrYGFCQmsVt0xOsnVpfUaiA92ucizUnkXvzmB2wd_9bODQfitcYB651EYTcmDTwkCTQctoXLQB9iHFYh15Qyr4_VpPdLbd1XfOZ2rGrwYe9eB5D9WbcNxJzM7sVF-xpOSwK6-IzlN3lux8p50l31GJ4aTuCMmEd2efwixPNuuBEwjBGNJkJolMIA40y2Z8lHysBo9Kv_lm_PUnGIf7Yw_vBsSNpVCioYr8fbtbm__lg6wrRy1__W6dggFgGEc2MMYm6KGXXM5Sy7q3mAkl9LjIa8iJGj4cG_Sp6JTRvO7V2qjMRjXVMYRXbdhufX-QKu9a76N4l6-VPOqd7Ef5_LHvx4t1I0-x2mpXzIoJLoVcgI3AxUfqas3EYORT9bBS21B_eZXRae3-AbTKskU> offered help: ?He said he was expressing an ?aspiration? rather than a goal of American foreign policy.? (I?m sure nuclear-armed Putin appreciated the semantic difference). When Biden moved more toward candor, saying he made ?no apologies? for his remarks, another reporter quickly tried to guide him back to a safe harbor: 
> 
> Q: Your personal feelings, sir?  Your personal feelings?
> 
> THE PRESIDENT: Personal.  My personal feelings.
> 
> Biden even offered his Princess Bride/Vizzini-esque analysis that ?the last thing I want to do is engage in a land war? with Russia?:
> 
>  <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkMlqxDAMhp8mPgYvWZyDD4Uyp9LbFHoKXtSMmcQOttyQt6_TASGhnf-zGmGJ6VR7zEguN-O5gwpw5BUQIZGSIc3eKT6xQXLiVOeY7CXxef5JAJv2q8JUgOzFrN5q9DFc84x2nDxUb50dxDhRa6RlozBAbd8DiAmEY46_nuriPAQLKob1nHftHVnVA3HPjXhr-K3acRztGQsWA62N21XRaB-NuP024n38uN-fw_H1mb6JV5xyToVglDHW85a3spOjNJJxM4ygJW_1JE-KGZqObgtvczEZtX1el0lSdoGamhTjsw4sl8b_TpU417iV4PGcIWizgnupxxfCfx7zAgFSRetmjYoNnRzkxJng3fCSW_H0jIuurxzraxfrVlCovTH-D4NRhxE>Although administration mouthpieces Tony Blinken and Jen Psaki scrambled to reassure a nervous world that the U.S. is not intent on ?doing regime change? in Russia, officials everywhere have been telling reporters the opposite on background.
> 
> This cat was out of the bag weeks ago. As Joe Lauria at Consortium points out <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkN2OhCAMhZ9muNPIjw5ecLE3-xqmQMcho2CgZOPbL44JoS09zSmfA8I15dMcqRC7roXOA03Ev7IhEWZWC-YleCNmPmnBvFGe61GzUJZXRtwhbIZyRXZUuwUHFFK89HxQgr2NAPt8zUq-PHgnYJbjpKW1blaD5pK72xSqDxgdmhS3czkgeLaZN9FRHvLnIX7bcSmWlCnU_Vqud2lvj2IQooVBXvnzUkHsci0lQIfFwYEdvbGrpaMMR-uzYK6ZQUo-cM5H0YteK_3UVnNhpyeCFj3M-hyo4EMN-yr6Um0hcJ_Lk2XjVmylzSl9mmC9AHw77f9Li3uNgc4FI9gN_Y2Gbr5fWMuKEXPj7hcgwyelJz0LLoWabhaN3ciFVGOD3Kx9alPREARrwz-kHo_U>, Biden was asked on February 24th, at the start of the invasion, what sanctions would accomplish if they hadn?t prevented war. His answer <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwtUcuOrCAQ_Zp2pxGkbXrBYjb3NwxIqTUqGCjG-Pe3nJ6EVOXUm3NGSzDHdJkjZqpuM9B1gAlw5g2IIFUlQxrQG_kWvZaVN8oL_dQV5mFKALvFzVAqUB3FbThawhjuetEqWS1GCaEn1znhdf_SnXiN0IKbWiUm0fWT-Cy1xSOEEUwM2zUcFn21mYXoyI_u6yH_8TvPszkXJFgin9TM8YeDLiFMGOY6xbgzzgfAuECuEx-W1swh2UrJrr2NVGz-UrW76iNBRg-Bane7OoY6lZzR5rqEI8WfuIKvbfAMv0smnPDGRHZc7-KyJosBeGiF5l7Udp1ohRBP2chGK_3STgvp-hdYLRv71ldLGR6q3WfZ5OLyPakZ414lM87A0PFPVi6Yb2J_M8zrwH4vAekaIFi3gf9QTh_dfkUYZgiQWE8_WDKiV7rXbyk6qfoPx6zJU8hOPVk8Xu0jdwVDFp3D_1aYsQY>:
> 
> No one expected the sanctions to prevent anything from happening. That has to sh- ? this is going to take time.  And we have to show resolve, so he knows what?s coming and so the people of Russia know what he?s brought on them. That?s what this is all about.
> 
> Biden said virtually the same thing in Brussels last week: 
> 
> Sanctions never deter? The maintenance of sanctions, the increasing the pain ? we will sustain what we?re doing not just next month, the following month, but for the remainder of this entire year.  That?s what will stop him.
> 
> We heard this more explicitly from Boris Johnson on March 1st <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkUuOxCAMRE_T7Ij4JDRZsJjNXCPi486gTiACoyi3H9ItWWWBjar08BZhzeUyR65IblnwOsAkOOsGiFBIq1CWGIyYudKCBDMGridNYl1eBWC3cTNYGpCjuS16izGne5-zUZA_o2bt5es16vB0MM-eB8ullZppFjxX09fUthAheTA5bddy2BjIZv4Qj_qQPw_x2-s8z8HZUnKqg897v7lD9tbetNqrdkn-Nq80JoQUIFDM1JWYVhrymejRMCZaYI07UMbVqNikNJtJNIIJwaTkjHM-iUEMetRP7TQXTj3BajHYWV8MKzxGtq9iqM1VtP59RyHF-BX60ZWc331hvaF8Jp3J0vveUsRrgWTdBuGLC7_MPwCXFRKU_hdhsWh6Mq30LLgUo_ry6TwnLuQ4dfDdOuT-Khm00bn4DzgzmGw>, ?The measures we are introducing, that large parts of the world are introducing, are to bring down the Putin regime,? Johnson said. Lauria points out this was two days after British Armed Forces Minister James Heappey wrote in the? <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlUUuO7CAMPE2zSxScT5MFi7d514j4uBPUCUTgTCu3HzMtobKMDS5XOUO4pnzrMxUSFRa6T9QRP2VHIsziKpiX4DXMclIgvB68VKMSoSyvjHiYsGvKF4rzsntwhkKKtV92A4hNO2VHdM-nnQ0oj-CsNSjNLF_WIs74HWouHzA61Cnu93Ka4MWuN6KzPPp_D_jP5_P5tIQ7rtmcW-tSe73rbcq7bypdTqAD4NBVgInhemcTYjCxNK-wbhTi2lTSPh2NzYG42OAP5pu2WtpwP_mVCLr-1PW97KSUI7TQqkE9lVUS7PREo6A1s7o7KvgYumOFtly2kHFvJnaIrN2KnNqc0psb1irSX4U1WjgeVwx0LxiN3dF_5aOvB3-CLitGzOyNXwxpOQ1qUjPIHobpqxfrO0roh5GN4NG8D6-ieR9rwy80QZ7c>Telegraph <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlUUuO7CAMPE2zSxScT5MFi7d514j4uBPUCUTgTCu3HzMtobKMDS5XOUO4pnzrMxUSFRa6T9QRP2VHIsziKpiX4DXMclIgvB68VKMSoSyvjHiYsGvKF4rzsntwhkKKtV92A4hNO2VHdM-nnQ0oj-CsNSjNLF_WIs74HWouHzA61Cnu93Ka4MWuN6KzPPp_D_jP5_P5tIQ7rtmcW-tSe73rbcq7bypdTqAD4NBVgInhemcTYjCxNK-wbhTi2lTSPh2NzYG42OAP5pu2WtpwP_mVCLr-1PW97KSUI7TQqkE9lVUS7PREo6A1s7o7KvgYumOFtly2kHFvJnaIrN2KnNqc0psb1irSX4U1WjgeVwx0LxiN3dF_5aOvB3-CLitGzOyNXwxpOQ1qUjPIHobpqxfrO0roh5GN4NG8D6-ieR9rwy80QZ7c> that ?His failure must be complete? the Russian people empowered to see how little he cares for them. In showing them that, Putin?s days as President will surely be numbered? He?ll lose power and he won?t get to choose his successor.?
> 
> Jen Psaki?s non-committal answer <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkU1uwyAQhU8TdrFgDC5ZsOim17D4mTooDlgwbuTbd5xI6I2AB_P4iJ5wqe1wW-0kTpnp2NAVfPUVibCJvWObc3JwU5MFkZxOyhorcp9_G-LT59VR21Fse1hz9JRrOf1KahB3p1COwUi4SeujRhOktMZYaQDiLyT9aer3lLFEdLWsx7z5nMTq7kRbv4zfF_jhQXfMhQNF3GiI9clLIAG4yJFFGZb90XwueG1779lfX75de_3DhnkpdFwLv5XyO2Fnt8juvEGOo5JKKQMDDFbbLxusgjB9obcw-Js9JHW8aPlcYOh76OTj40wgmosL8jS0Wh9sWE4Y7x1mMXN97iXTMWPxYcX0wUQf1m9w84IFG_9Bmj05NWk72RuoEfT04cIcjYJRMzHBrVPlU8WRzyHkf38slFw> to The Intercept?s question about whether or not Volodymyr Zelensky has autonomy to negotiate the end of sanctions, and the apparent disinterest of the United States in participating in peace talks, also speaks to this. Biden?s many ?gaffes? on the subject have all let slip military or strategic initiatives, not diplomatic ones, like revealing <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkN2OhCAMhZ9muDS0ouIFF5tM9jUMP9Uho2Kk7sS3XxwTApy0cHo-b5mmtJ9mS5nFtQ18bmRW-uSZmGkXR6Z9iMFgD61GEYwKoBstYh7GnWixcTa8HyS2w83RW45pvfpBKhQvAz3VOCo1ht4rpan12o4WnIURoRRuU3uESKsnk9b5HDYbg5jNi3nLj_rngb9l8Sde81Q-LUU9ydtle9o_KiKz5SOXCzRSt9gAtCC7Tivoy5wGJaKsa5AA0GCFlVa6004DurYjq7GyvT4lZ3oouUxY5cOVL_378hK78RMV6faU3qVhuhJ_KyXwUM7lWCOfA63WzRRuFnwD_dIZJlppL6DDYNlAq3Sre4QaVXuHL7AawFo1hWqxDqm8Wg3b6Fz8B2mciZE> that the U.S. is training Ukrainian troops in Poland. 
> 
> As Jacobin?s Branko Marcetic noted <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkMuOhSAMhp_msDRSUXHBYmYxu3kGwqUqGQUDNSe-_eAxado0vX6_M4RLypc6UiF2O03XgSriu2xIhJmdBbMOXsHEBwnMK-G57CULRc8ZcTdhU5RPZMdpt-AMhRTvft4KYKuaO-SjgVb6kbt5RvR2BtF2nUVh3OSfo-b0AaNDleJ26cMEzza1Eh3l1X294KcavcP9T-PSXrPvX5PdihTcyoKCFqCu5C3nvIcGGinkKK3kYIcRjYTGTPJqqeBLtPsCTTltIeP-7m0sK7dgTW1O6a82LDfTp1KRdI37GQNdGqOxG_qHlh7JPvx6wYi5Sum1IcUHIQc5Ae9ADA9elaPn0Im-6lZP-1SnoiITrA3_F3iCzQ>, Blinken even went out of his way to throw cold water on supposed positive news coming out of Russia-Ukraine negotiations. The Secretary of State said he hadn?t seen any signs of ?constructive? progress, and any indication that Moscow might be willing to pull back might be to ?deceive people and deflect attention.? Even the New York Times vaporized a headline that briefly appeared Tuesday suggesting progress in negotiations. 
> 
> This is the before shot:
> 
>  <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxVUsuunDAM_ZphB8oTwiKLq0r9DeQkhokGEkpCb6dfXzOsKkW249exfOyh4pKPt91zqc0lpvre0Sb8LivWikdzFjymGKwYeW9EE6wK3GjTxDLNB-IGcbX1OLHZT7dGDzXmdOVzpkTztNJ57dw8M2XQgGCSMTUHiUzP5FbyBoUzREwebU7re9ohhma1z1r38pBfD_GTng-pK6crFfyr83kjV9xgQdIzVv-8NPWp-SF-_LoN-bXkHOg_r9N-5OXAUuJvJH-piDtV3BBCXyD6giHhTv9Cih8tDemcN6p1ALJVcsB21Ny0EJwUDodhNKorsoMN_uYE3-Wei3rcu_iYnyHLxwTsZ--Nb4XTfatAY-sE8nYcORu4Q-HMOPF-7P9opro9LU20gglamuSMc65FJzqjzGCc4cL1A4IRHYzmzWrBh2LbIv7bUXNYT-AV3JHzixKWi65PhCacSG9nivU9YQK3YriJrPc1fKidFkx40JWECarlvTK9GQWXQvU3c8S05kIqTSdB0CFTVbIVonPxH8CFxXY>	
> And this is the ?very shortly after? shot, hours later:
> 
>  <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxVUtuupSAM_Zrtm0Zugg88nEwyv2EKVDfZCg7gnHG-flCfJiFt6W01XbVQcInp1HvMpbnEVM4ddcDvvGIpmJojY5q803Qkg6KN09wRJVTj8zQnxA38qks6sNkPs3oLxcdw5ZOe0-atURppR2kd51YoNTppqLXCjHy2tq99blA4nMdgUcewntMO3jWrfpey5xf7etGf9VkXunyYXMB-Ohu36vIbLFj1jMW-L137lPiiP349BvtaYnT1P6_TnuKSMGf_G6s_F8S9VjwQVFwg4oKpwhz2gzWeWuyFMVbx1gCwljOJ7SiIasEZRg1KOSreZdbBBn9jgO_8zFV7PLu4zXvIfJtUCTdywFaMs235yGULjLBWoOtxgBnVrCYiB_pHir7bw9J4TXtKe8ZITwgRtKOd4koqowg1g0RQtINRnX3J-OL9ttD_dtQkbSt4AZNi_NSE5aLrjtQJp6q3I_hyThjArOgeIstzDTe104IBU70SN0HRZOBqUCMljPLhYa4yLQhlXFQqK7SLtSroAt4Y_w-P3sVV>	
> Things could change at any moment. Biden could suddenly pivot to helping Zelensky secure a diplomatic solution. But as of this writing, evidence suggests the United States is not interested in a settlement, and is gunning for a long-term play that would unseat Putin, crack the Sino-Russian alliance, and reverse the political malaise that?s beset neoliberal democracies for years, with one Rumsfeldian ?big move.?
> 
> Well, you say, so what? Shouldn?t America use the occasion of Putin?s seemingly disastrous and indefensible invasion to try to force him out of power?
> 
> Sure, that makes sense. Except for two things. ...
> Keep reading this post and get 7 days free
> Become a paid subscriber of TK News by Matt Taibbi to keep reading and get 7 days of free access to the full post archives.
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> Start trial <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJyNUk1vozAQ_TXhlsg2HzEHDt2kaakK2arpR3pBxkyIE2yzxojQX7-m6R5We1nJY2nePM94nh5nFmptxqTVnfWmq7BjC4mCoWvAWjBe34EpRJWQGEeUeFUSVJiG1BNdcTAAkokmsaYHr-3LRnBmhVYTH6OAeMeERjHn8QEjcjjQMIIQ0SUOgYeADgSh8jqU9ZUAxSHRqhmLlonKa5KjtW03829mZOOOZaIsxaLry84yfl5wLR06pdyIEmb-xuozqJm_hvEBc_I6vpPmnJ70uN3dku067VLZHKtVGmW7Pdqu98F2l14yMYiP9-PgeJf89HLJTrWL2_Fx9dByPxNb8TBUb6nNdjcoE66HyvFepFEqc_3xlpvSf0WpQovVkbHP8PnpLn36ufzR3JNNOHzmeRPfPd-bl-zwazxt54-7XBfpjES9lUWne8Pdt9eTAA7rhGybKZ_E_IfDxoE1zTcsoRK9nDad1P8GuVYWlHVoiIkfhCF1BQWXCfkfJVsXBmohYc6PTNUwrzR0ys4Hbc7zUfdzqY1WnevKdd_qSWkSxpgDY55ICCIE-T5GGOOQLMiCBnRJS4pJGS2BUbJgMR2R7WAWIFmTv8Z7JuE1uLQ0Wp8doZ4W-6o4V7nVpOyVsGMBipUNVFfD2atrv0QoalBgnJurgtkERwGNaEywT4Lo6jDnyD-6eG50pd0rlVyl-A2QTAU7>
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From jbw292002 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 31 07:52:50 2022
From: jbw292002 at gmail.com (John W.)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 02:52:50 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Fwd: "Regime Change" Doesn't Work,
 You Morons
In-Reply-To: <054B2F78-5694-468E-AA33-D8B851056E05@newsfromneptune.com>
References: <20220331011152.2.84878b812b67ea82.a98y0tse@mg2.substack.com>
 <054B2F78-5694-468E-AA33-D8B851056E05@newsfromneptune.com>
Message-ID: <CAPnrEOX6hTpundH026PSr1bNi44CstiryifLmSjen_w99yOW8Q@mail.gmail.com>

Gosh, when I saw the subject line, I was just CERTAIN that it was in
reference to Putin's ACTUAL, CRIMINAL efforts to bring about regime change
in Ukraine!!  :-O



On Wed, Mar 30, 2022 at 10:14 PM C. G. Estabrook via Peace <
peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From: *Matt Taibbi <taibbi at substack.com>
> *Subject: **"Regime Change" Doesn't Work, You Morons*
> *Date: *March 30, 2022 at 8:11:52 PM CDT
> *To: *cgestabrook at gmail.com
> *Reply-To: *Matt Taibbi <
> reply+ui4u6&692a&&035802f7ef3dcdcdd89ad3df575a7348b91f7106643b4fa4cad66f7909f18b1a at mg1.substack.com
> >
>
>
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxVkktz4jAMxz8NuSVjOw-cgw9toW0YIBe2wCnjhwjeJHaaOMuGT7-mnHbkx8j-S5rRT5I7qO0ws96OLngclZt7YAZuYwvOwRBMIwyVVozkOKMkUCxRmKY00GN1GQA6rlvmhgmCfhKtltxpax56jBISXFmWKym8LZMUUkwF4QgESASXjCh6SZ9F-aQ0GAnMmnaueq5V0LKrc_24iF8W5N0vx7UQOhonMToum0jazr_2fg9Q6w5CeeWmhlBZGI0Lb3ZowtlOYWcHa3yad2cbMIt4BfMGS_I1n0jbFL_tXB7WpFwVY9G1V_VWZLvDGZWrc1Ieir87fdP8tL97nZafX3p7WN_2q0Jv3zZ3dSx0qTc3Ee_R9rRpz8c94sd8KgyKXrfH5a_1q9mnG37-_vyOG_mn_5DnUHyMZFfiex52xWVJ9bQLNCOIEBTHGGGMUxKRiCZ0SQXFRGRL4JREPKczciMsEtTV5L8mBAOTNXhXDNY2XlA_kPz8eCKVv7vJaDdXYLhoQT1huSfxH3xVDQYGPwmq4o7hLKEZzQmOSZI96XiaKSZxknrsvrSyPsqwJ5B_CYnDTQ>
> "Regime Change" Doesn't Work, You Morons
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxVkktz4jAMxz8NuSVjOw-cgw9toW0YIBe2wCnjhwjeJHaaOMuGT7-mnHbkx8j-S5rRT5I7qO0ws96OLngclZt7YAZuYwvOwRBMIwyVVozkOKMkUCxRmKY00GN1GQA6rlvmhgmCfhKtltxpax56jBISXFmWKym8LZMUUkwF4QgESASXjCh6SZ9F-aQ0GAnMmnaueq5V0LKrc_24iF8W5N0vx7UQOhonMToum0jazr_2fg9Q6w5CeeWmhlBZGI0Lb3ZowtlOYWcHa3yad2cbMIt4BfMGS_I1n0jbFL_tXB7WpFwVY9G1V_VWZLvDGZWrc1Ieir87fdP8tL97nZafX3p7WN_2q0Jv3zZ3dSx0qTc3Ee_R9rRpz8c94sd8KgyKXrfH5a_1q9mnG37-_vyOG_mn_5DnUHyMZFfiex52xWVJ9bQLNCOIEBTHGGGMUxKRiCZ0SQXFRGRL4JREPKczciMsEtTV5L8mBAOTNXhXDNY2XlA_kPz8eCKVv7vJaDdXYLhoQT1huSfxH3xVDQYGPwmq4o7hLKEZzQmOSZI96XiaKSZxknrsvrSyPsqwJ5B_CYnDTQ>How
> many examples of "regime change" blowing up in our faces do we really need
> before realizing that it's a disastrous policy? Will we really try it with
> a nuclear-armed adversary?
> Matt Taibbi
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxNkEuOwyAMhk9TdhPFhqRkwWI2cw3Ew01RkxCBo1FuP7TZjGT5IRvs_wuOac7lNHuuLN7O8rmT2ei3LsRMRRyVik3R4ASjRhGNiqAHLVK1j0K0urQYLgeJ_fBLCo5T3t7z0CsUTwNwx8mHEMBJmFwMEhxJ5acRnX_I-7XUHTHRFsjkbTnt7lIUi3ky7_Umv2_406wevrILry7ktZV7yY-0UMtwlP0gv1bH_MUueZ9EMtgj9lJCDwADdthppe_aa0A_3slp7Nykz54r3VS_ztj9_14UE2ZqpS85v9rA_Fb56TSRtsX12BKfljbnF4qXfr4gfojYmTYqDW60jg2MSo96QpCoxktwAzQASjU0km11zO3VZq7z_wBUYod_> Mar
> 31
>
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxVUsuunDAM_ZphByIPSFhkcVWpv4GcxMNEAwlNQm_p19cMq0qR7fh1LB87qLikfJo9ldpcYq7njibid1mxVszNUTDPwRs-sVHzxhvpmR50E8r8zIgbhNXUfGCzH3YNDmpI8cpnveTNy1ilHOA0cu2F1RYk650cmdOCOzsN4w0Khw8YHZoU13PeIfhmNa9a9_IQXw_-k57zsSuHLRXcu3NpI1fYYEHST6zudWnqU9OD__h1G-JrScnT_7nOe05LxlLCbyR_qYg7VdwQfLhAhguGhD3cGymeW-wHa52WrQUQrRQK22lgugVvBbeo1KRlV0QHG_xNEb7LPRf1uHfxMT9Dlo85jU-nFIq2V4K1Ujpqpaxvn0o4FBOlyHFmUvA_tK9uj0sTDO8574VgPWNs4B3vtNRKW824HRWC5h1M-uxrwYfst4X_t6MmG0fgFWxO6U0Jy0XXJ0ITzqS3I4Z6zhjBruhvIut9DR9q5wUjZroSP0M1bJR61BNngia9mSOmB8aFHOgkCNonqoqmQrA2_AMw6MRF>
>
> Not long ago, candidate Joe Biden?s most troubling behavioral tendency was
> the surprise outburst of belligerence. Campaigning, he?d challenge
> questioners to push-up contests, jam fingers in the sternums even of
> supporters, and plunge into rambling monologues about leg hairs and
> chain-fights.
>
> Now, the president?s face is often a mask of terror, like a man unsure of
> how he came to be standing in the middle of an intersection. Mental cars
> racing past, he met the press
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwtUduOrSAM_ZrtGwYQHXzgYV7ObxguVclWMFCP8e-nzp6EtPS22qzlLcKSy22OXLF5zIT3ASbBVTdAhNKcFcoUg5GjGLRsglFB6F43sU5zAdht3AyWE5rjdFv0FmNOT7_gSjarsdBBGGHkQfZqsHacA3Du3aCCn-XsP0vtGSIkDyan7Z4OG0OzmRXxqK_u-yX_0buuq73WiLBmOqld8n9KuhJhjmlhJeed4noA-BUqK3RYeVdKSS4lOd49f03mr8TczY4CNQZIyNzjmE0pn8k_gLgCm2P1dmM32MIIpmPuDAsgYTTRPLi86wQXQvSyla1W-ks7LaQbvsBq2dpR3xwrvBTfF9nW01W0_t36vDfF-AUodHT4mxqWh8ffCtE4kd_PFPGeIFm3QfgwjB-ZfjmfFkhQSL4wWTRiUHrQoxSdVMOHUpKgF7JTPWlFq0OmqWTQRufiDwJ-qog>
>  Monday, to clarify a statement made last week about Vladimir Putin: ?For
> God?s sake, this man cannot remain in power.? Many interpreted this as a
> call for regime change. Not at all, Biden said, reading from a large-print
> cheat sheet
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwtkUmu5CAMhk9T7BKBMxS1YPE2fY2IwZ2gSiACo1Ju386rlpAtT_LPZ28J11wuc-ZK4jYLXSeahJ-6IxEW0SqWJQYDLzVrEMGMQelJi1iXvwXxsHE3VBqKs7k9eksxp7tfyRHEZiblnVXyKV2AOahJSzeFpwcFIUyzmr9LbQsRk0eT034tp41B7GYjOutj-HnAH36fz6ePKeCJbBL1Pvftzflb6l3OZQ_s7YGFVdypVrsz75GivyMXeazzG1rq6oZI3dkopq60WqPtCv-kvGvnQI6zGqDf6NhFNCAB5DAoqZSaoIdej_qpnVbg5idaDb196UtSxccojxX62lwl698s8BDF-BU5dCXnNzesN67fCtNa2B8tRboWTNbtGL4g6XuNX7TLigkLXyksloyaRz3rF7C-8T85Jj0pGMaJT8KrQ-apZMhG5-I_jjOhuw>
>  ? this reportedly happened ? that reminded him to say he was merely
> expressing ?moral outrage,? and ?not articulating a change in policy.? When
> he ran out of pre-prepared remarks, he drifted back to danger, saying:
>
> *It?s more an aspiration than anything.  He shouldn?t be in power.*
>
> The AP writeup
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwtUU2vpCAQ_DV600iLiAcOL9nMeZPdu2mgx0dGwfCRif9-8c0mpKG7mlR3lcFMW4iXOkPK7R3WfJ2kPL3TTjlTbEuiuDqrYGFCQmsVt0xOsnVpfUaiA92ucizUnkXvzmB2wd_9bODQfitcYB651EYTcmDTwkCTQctoXLQB9iHFYh15Qyr4_VpPdLbd1XfOZ2rGrwYe9eB5D9WbcNxJzM7sVF-xpOSwK6-IzlN3lux8p50l31GJ4aTuCMmEd2efwixPNuuBEwjBGNJkJolMIA40y2Z8lHysBo9Kv_lm_PUnGIf7Yw_vBsSNpVCioYr8fbtbm__lg6wrRy1__W6dggFgGEc2MMYm6KGXXM5Sy7q3mAkl9LjIa8iJGj4cG_Sp6JTRvO7V2qjMRjXVMYRXbdhufX-QKu9a76N4l6-VPOqd7Ef5_LHvx4t1I0-x2mpXzIoJLoVcgI3AxUfqas3EYORT9bBS21B_eZXRae3-AbTKskU>
>  offered help: ?He said he was expressing an ?aspiration? rather than a
> goal of American foreign policy.? (I?m sure nuclear-armed Putin appreciated
> the semantic difference). When Biden moved more toward candor, saying he
> made ?no apologies? for his remarks, another reporter quickly tried to
> guide him back to a safe harbor:
>
> *Q: Your personal feelings, sir?  Your personal feelings?*
>
> *THE PRESIDENT: Personal.  My personal feelings.*
>
> Biden even offered his *Princess Bride/*Vizzini-esque analysis that ?the
> last thing I want to do is engage in a land war? with Russia?:
>
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkMlqxDAMhp8mPgYvWZyDD4Uyp9LbFHoKXtSMmcQOttyQt6_TASGhnf-zGmGJ6VR7zEguN-O5gwpw5BUQIZGSIc3eKT6xQXLiVOeY7CXxef5JAJv2q8JUgOzFrN5q9DFc84x2nDxUb50dxDhRa6RlozBAbd8DiAmEY46_nuriPAQLKob1nHftHVnVA3HPjXhr-K3acRztGQsWA62N21XRaB-NuP024n38uN-fw_H1mb6JV5xyToVglDHW85a3spOjNJJxM4ygJW_1JE-KGZqObgtvczEZtX1el0lSdoGamhTjsw4sl8b_TpU417iV4PGcIWizgnupxxfCfx7zAgFSRetmjYoNnRzkxJng3fCSW_H0jIuurxzraxfrVlCovTH-D4NRhxE>
>
> Although administration mouthpieces Tony Blinken and Jen Psaki scrambled
> to reassure a nervous world that the U.S. is not intent on ?doing regime
> change? in Russia, officials everywhere have been telling reporters the
> opposite on background.
>
> This cat was out of the bag weeks ago. As Joe Lauria at *Consortium* points
> out
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkN2OhCAMhZ9muNPIjw5ecLE3-xqmQMcho2CgZOPbL44JoS09zSmfA8I15dMcqRC7roXOA03Ev7IhEWZWC-YleCNmPmnBvFGe61GzUJZXRtwhbIZyRXZUuwUHFFK89HxQgr2NAPt8zUq-PHgnYJbjpKW1blaD5pK72xSqDxgdmhS3czkgeLaZN9FRHvLnIX7bcSmWlCnU_Vqud2lvj2IQooVBXvnzUkHsci0lQIfFwYEdvbGrpaMMR-uzYK6ZQUo-cM5H0YteK_3UVnNhpyeCFj3M-hyo4EMN-yr6Um0hcJ_Lk2XjVmylzSl9mmC9AHw77f9Li3uNgc4FI9gN_Y2Gbr5fWMuKEXPj7hcgwyelJz0LLoWabhaN3ciFVGOD3Kx9alPREARrwz-kHo_U>,
> Biden was asked on February 24th, at the start of the invasion, what
> sanctions would accomplish if they hadn?t prevented war. His answer
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwtUcuOrCAQ_Zp2pxGkbXrBYjb3NwxIqTUqGCjG-Pe3nJ6EVOXUm3NGSzDHdJkjZqpuM9B1gAlw5g2IIFUlQxrQG_kWvZaVN8oL_dQV5mFKALvFzVAqUB3FbThawhjuetEqWS1GCaEn1znhdf_SnXiN0IKbWiUm0fWT-Cy1xSOEEUwM2zUcFn21mYXoyI_u6yH_8TvPszkXJFgin9TM8YeDLiFMGOY6xbgzzgfAuECuEx-W1swh2UrJrr2NVGz-UrW76iNBRg-Bane7OoY6lZzR5rqEI8WfuIKvbfAMv0smnPDGRHZc7-KyJosBeGiF5l7Udp1ohRBP2chGK_3STgvp-hdYLRv71ldLGR6q3WfZ5OLyPakZ414lM87A0PFPVi6Yb2J_M8zrwH4vAekaIFi3gf9QTh_dfkUYZgiQWE8_WDKiV7rXbyk6qfoPx6zJU8hOPVk8Xu0jdwVDFp3D_1aYsQY>
> :
>
> *No one expected the sanctions to prevent anything from happening. That
> has to sh- ? this is going to take time.  And we have to show resolve, so
> he knows what?s coming and so the people of Russia know what he?s brought
> on them. That?s what this is all about.*
>
> Biden said virtually the same thing in Brussels last week:
>
> *Sanctions never deter? The maintenance of sanctions, the increasing the
> pain ? we will sustain what we?re doing not just next month, the following
> month, but for the remainder of this entire year.  That?s what will stop
> him.*
>
> We heard this more explicitly from Boris Johnson on March 1st
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkUuOxCAMRE_T7Ij4JDRZsJjNXCPi486gTiACoyi3H9ItWWWBjar08BZhzeUyR65IblnwOsAkOOsGiFBIq1CWGIyYudKCBDMGridNYl1eBWC3cTNYGpCjuS16izGne5-zUZA_o2bt5es16vB0MM-eB8ullZppFjxX09fUthAheTA5bddy2BjIZv4Qj_qQPw_x2-s8z8HZUnKqg897v7lD9tbetNqrdkn-Nq80JoQUIFDM1JWYVhrymejRMCZaYI07UMbVqNikNJtJNIIJwaTkjHM-iUEMetRP7TQXTj3BajHYWV8MKzxGtq9iqM1VtP59RyHF-BX60ZWc331hvaF8Jp3J0vveUsRrgWTdBuGLC7_MPwCXFRKU_hdhsWh6Mq30LLgUo_ry6TwnLuQ4dfDdOuT-Khm00bn4DzgzmGw>,
> ?The measures we are introducing, that large parts of the world are
> introducing, are to *bring down the Putin regime*,? Johnson said. Lauria
> points out this was two days after British Armed Forces Minister James
> Heappey wrote in the
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlUUuO7CAMPE2zSxScT5MFi7d514j4uBPUCUTgTCu3HzMtobKMDS5XOUO4pnzrMxUSFRa6T9QRP2VHIsziKpiX4DXMclIgvB68VKMSoSyvjHiYsGvKF4rzsntwhkKKtV92A4hNO2VHdM-nnQ0oj-CsNSjNLF_WIs74HWouHzA61Cnu93Ka4MWuN6KzPPp_D_jP5_P5tIQ7rtmcW-tSe73rbcq7bypdTqAD4NBVgInhemcTYjCxNK-wbhTi2lTSPh2NzYG42OAP5pu2WtpwP_mVCLr-1PW97KSUI7TQqkE9lVUS7PREo6A1s7o7KvgYumOFtly2kHFvJnaIrN2KnNqc0psb1irSX4U1WjgeVwx0LxiN3dF_5aOvB3-CLitGzOyNXwxpOQ1qUjPIHobpqxfrO0roh5GN4NG8D6-ieR9rwy80QZ7c>*Telegraph
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlUUuO7CAMPE2zSxScT5MFi7d514j4uBPUCUTgTCu3HzMtobKMDS5XOUO4pnzrMxUSFRa6T9QRP2VHIsziKpiX4DXMclIgvB68VKMSoSyvjHiYsGvKF4rzsntwhkKKtV92A4hNO2VHdM-nnQ0oj-CsNSjNLF_WIs74HWouHzA61Cnu93Ka4MWuN6KzPPp_D_jP5_P5tIQ7rtmcW-tSe73rbcq7bypdTqAD4NBVgInhemcTYjCxNK-wbhTi2lTSPh2NzYG42OAP5pu2WtpwP_mVCLr-1PW97KSUI7TQqkE9lVUS7PREo6A1s7o7KvgYumOFtly2kHFvJnaIrN2KnNqc0psb1irSX4U1WjgeVwx0LxiN3dF_5aOvB3-CLitGzOyNXwxpOQ1qUjPIHobpqxfrO0roh5GN4NG8D6-ieR9rwy80QZ7c> *
> that* ?*His failure must be complete*? *the Russian people empowered to
> see how little he cares for them. In showing them that, *Putin?s days as
> President will surely be numbered? He?ll lose power and he won?t get to
> choose his successor*.?
>
> Jen Psaki?s non-committal answer
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkU1uwyAQhU8TdrFgDC5ZsOim17D4mTooDlgwbuTbd5xI6I2AB_P4iJ5wqe1wW-0kTpnp2NAVfPUVibCJvWObc3JwU5MFkZxOyhorcp9_G-LT59VR21Fse1hz9JRrOf1KahB3p1COwUi4SeujRhOktMZYaQDiLyT9aer3lLFEdLWsx7z5nMTq7kRbv4zfF_jhQXfMhQNF3GiI9clLIAG4yJFFGZb90XwueG1779lfX75de_3DhnkpdFwLv5XyO2Fnt8juvEGOo5JKKQMDDFbbLxusgjB9obcw-Js9JHW8aPlcYOh76OTj40wgmosL8jS0Wh9sWE4Y7x1mMXN97iXTMWPxYcX0wUQf1m9w84IFG_9Bmj05NWk72RuoEfT04cIcjYJRMzHBrVPlU8WRzyHkf38slFw>
>  to *The* *Intercept?s* question about whether or not Volodymyr Zelensky
> has autonomy to negotiate the end of sanctions, and the apparent
> disinterest of the United States in participating in peace talks, also
> speaks to this. Biden?s many ?gaffes? on the subject have all let slip
> military or strategic initiatives, not diplomatic ones, like revealing
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkN2OhCAMhZ9muDS0ouIFF5tM9jUMP9Uho2Kk7sS3XxwTApy0cHo-b5mmtJ9mS5nFtQ18bmRW-uSZmGkXR6Z9iMFgD61GEYwKoBstYh7GnWixcTa8HyS2w83RW45pvfpBKhQvAz3VOCo1ht4rpan12o4WnIURoRRuU3uESKsnk9b5HDYbg5jNi3nLj_rngb9l8Sde81Q-LUU9ydtle9o_KiKz5SOXCzRSt9gAtCC7Tivoy5wGJaKsa5AA0GCFlVa6004DurYjq7GyvT4lZ3oouUxY5cOVL_378hK78RMV6faU3qVhuhJ_KyXwUM7lWCOfA63WzRRuFnwD_dIZJlppL6DDYNlAq3Sre4QaVXuHL7AawFo1hWqxDqm8Wg3b6Fz8B2mciZE>
>  that the U.S. is training Ukrainian troops in Poland.
>
> As *Jacobin?s *Branko Marcetic noted
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkMuOhSAMhp_msDRSUXHBYmYxu3kGwqUqGQUDNSe-_eAxado0vX6_M4RLypc6UiF2O03XgSriu2xIhJmdBbMOXsHEBwnMK-G57CULRc8ZcTdhU5RPZMdpt-AMhRTvft4KYKuaO-SjgVb6kbt5RvR2BtF2nUVh3OSfo-b0AaNDleJ26cMEzza1Eh3l1X294KcavcP9T-PSXrPvX5PdihTcyoKCFqCu5C3nvIcGGinkKK3kYIcRjYTGTPJqqeBLtPsCTTltIeP-7m0sK7dgTW1O6a82LDfTp1KRdI37GQNdGqOxG_qHlh7JPvx6wYi5Sum1IcUHIQc5Ae9ADA9elaPn0Im-6lZP-1SnoiITrA3_F3iCzQ>,
> Blinken even went out of his way to throw cold water on supposed positive
> news coming out of Russia-Ukraine negotiations. The Secretary of State said
> he hadn?t seen any signs of ?constructive? progress, and any indication
> that Moscow might be willing to pull back might be to ?deceive people and
> deflect attention.? Even the *New York Times* vaporized a headline that
> briefly appeared Tuesday suggesting progress in negotiations.
>
> This is the before shot:
>
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxVUsuunDAM_ZphB8oTwiKLq0r9DeQkhokGEkpCb6dfXzOsKkW249exfOyh4pKPt91zqc0lpvre0Sb8LivWikdzFjymGKwYeW9EE6wK3GjTxDLNB-IGcbX1OLHZT7dGDzXmdOVzpkTztNJ57dw8M2XQgGCSMTUHiUzP5FbyBoUzREwebU7re9ohhma1z1r38pBfD_GTng-pK6crFfyr83kjV9xgQdIzVv-8NPWp-SF-_LoN-bXkHOg_r9N-5OXAUuJvJH-piDtV3BBCXyD6giHhTv9Cih8tDemcN6p1ALJVcsB21Ny0EJwUDodhNKorsoMN_uYE3-Wei3rcu_iYnyHLxwTsZ--Nb4XTfatAY-sE8nYcORu4Q-HMOPF-7P9opro9LU20gglamuSMc65FJzqjzGCc4cL1A4IRHYzmzWrBh2LbIv7bUXNYT-AV3JHzixKWi65PhCacSG9nivU9YQK3YriJrPc1fKidFkx40JWECarlvTK9GQWXQvU3c8S05kIqTSdB0CFTVbIVonPxH8CFxXY>
>
> And this is the ?very shortly after? shot, hours later:
>
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxVUtuupSAM_Zrtm0Zugg88nEwyv2EKVDfZCg7gnHG-flCfJiFt6W01XbVQcInp1HvMpbnEVM4ddcDvvGIpmJojY5q803Qkg6KN09wRJVTj8zQnxA38qks6sNkPs3oLxcdw5ZOe0-atURppR2kd51YoNTppqLXCjHy2tq99blA4nMdgUcewntMO3jWrfpey5xf7etGf9VkXunyYXMB-Ohu36vIbLFj1jMW-L137lPiiP349BvtaYnT1P6_TnuKSMGf_G6s_F8S9VjwQVFwg4oKpwhz2gzWeWuyFMVbx1gCwljOJ7SiIasEZRg1KOSreZdbBBn9jgO_8zFV7PLu4zXvIfJtUCTdywFaMs235yGULjLBWoOtxgBnVrCYiB_pHir7bw9J4TXtKe8ZITwgRtKOd4koqowg1g0RQtINRnX3J-OL9ttD_dtQkbSt4AZNi_NSE5aLrjtQJp6q3I_hyThjArOgeIstzDTe104IBU70SN0HRZOBqUCMljPLhYa4yLQhlXFQqK7SLtSroAt4Y_w-P3sVV>
>
> Things could change at any moment. Biden could suddenly pivot to helping
> Zelensky secure a diplomatic solution. But as of this writing, evidence
> suggests the United States is not interested in a settlement, and is
> gunning for a long-term play that would unseat Putin, crack the
> Sino-Russian alliance, and reverse the political malaise that?s beset
> neoliberal democracies for years, with one Rumsfeldian ?big move.?
>
> Well, you say, so what? Shouldn?t America use the occasion of Putin?s
> seemingly disastrous and indefensible invasion to try to force him out of
> power?
> Sure, that makes sense. Except for two things. ...
> Keep reading this post and get 7 days free
>
> Become a paid subscriber of *TK News by Matt Taibbi* to keep reading and
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> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJyNUk1vozAQ_TXhlsg2HzEHDt2kaakK2arpR3pBxkyIE2yzxojQX7-m6R5We1nJY2nePM94nh5nFmptxqTVnfWmq7BjC4mCoWvAWjBe34EpRJWQGEeUeFUSVJiG1BNdcTAAkokmsaYHr-3LRnBmhVYTH6OAeMeERjHn8QEjcjjQMIIQ0SUOgYeADgSh8jqU9ZUAxSHRqhmLlonKa5KjtW03829mZOOOZaIsxaLry84yfl5wLR06pdyIEmb-xuozqJm_hvEBc_I6vpPmnJ70uN3dku067VLZHKtVGmW7Pdqu98F2l14yMYiP9-PgeJf89HLJTrWL2_Fx9dByPxNb8TBUb6nNdjcoE66HyvFepFEqc_3xlpvSf0WpQovVkbHP8PnpLn36ufzR3JNNOHzmeRPfPd-bl-zwazxt54-7XBfpjES9lUWne8Pdt9eTAA7rhGybKZ_E_IfDxoE1zTcsoRK9nDad1P8GuVYWlHVoiIkfhCF1BQWXCfkfJVsXBmohYc6PTNUwrzR0ys4Hbc7zUfdzqY1WnevKdd_qSWkSxpgDY55ICCIE-T5GGOOQLMiCBnRJS4pJGS2BUbJgMR2R7WAWIFmTv8Z7JuE1uLQ0Wp8doZ4W-6o4V7nVpOyVsGMBipUNVFfD2atrv0QoalBgnJurgtkERwGNaEywT4Lo6jDnyD-6eG50pd0rlVyl-A2QTAU7>
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From carl at newsfromneptune.com  Thu Mar 31 14:17:59 2022
From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 09:17:59 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Urging regime change in Russia,
 Biden exposes US aims in Ukraine
Message-ID: <EFEABC15-2328-4AC9-A673-6B279059372B@newsfromneptune.com>

https://mate.substack.com/p/urging-regime-change-in-russia-biden



From carl at newsfromneptune.com  Thu Mar 31 16:22:22 2022
From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 11:22:22 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Urging regime change in Russia,
 Biden exposes US aims in Ukraine
Message-ID: <233A2ED8-91F3-444F-9512-4DCC4A406762@newsfromneptune.com>

https://mate.substack.com/p/urging-regime-change-in-russia-biden

The US is responsible for the deaths in Ukraine.

###

From jbn at forestfield.org  Thu Mar 31 23:56:11 2022
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 18:56:11 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Recommended videos for AWARE on the Air,
 News from Neptune, and Labor's World View TV
In-Reply-To: <20d9a5da-75a6-989a-6ac1-db5d3266ceaf@forestfield.org>
References: <20d9a5da-75a6-989a-6ac1-db5d3266ceaf@forestfield.org>
Message-ID: <99f0c469-c7f6-3565-3a40-3cef4b8def75@forestfield.org>

I wrote:
> As a reminder: If anyone else has anything to run, please feel free to get your
> video pointers to UPTV (UPTV at urbanaillinois.us). I have continued to ask UPTV to
> prioritize AWARE members video pointers over mine for AWARE on the Air, Carl
> Estabrook & David Green's video pointers over mine for News from Neptune, and
> David Johnson's video pointers over mine for Labor's World View TV.


I don't know that the above shows have timeslots on UPTV anymore. When Jason Liggett 
worked at UPTV the videos I suggested ran during those timeslots but I'm not sure 
that UPTV runs the videos I suggest to them anymore. I've asked UPTV to respond to me 
indicating whether they run the videos. I have not yet received any feedback. If 
there's no clear evidence that these videos run I will stop submitting & publishing 
the video pointers. Watching the videos and putting together the lists takes a 
considerable amount of time, time I'd like to put to other use if UPTV doesn't run 
the shows.

If any of you have cable TV and the UPTV channel, please take a look for these shows, 
see what runs, and please let us all know what you saw.

Thanks.

From jbn at forestfield.org  Thu Mar 31 23:57:31 2022
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 18:57:31 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Glenn Greenwald on "Media Refuses to Retract their
 "Russian Disinformation" Lie Even as NYT & WP Authenticate the Emails"
Message-ID: <a952dfce-6127-f1c0-78f0-384870c69c81@forestfield.org>

https://youtube.com/watch?v=C18-ZkkHLac
https://rumble.com/vz3x6n-nyt-and-wp-confirm-biden-archive-yet-the-media-refuse-to-retract-their-russ.html

You can bet that the youtube.com URL will stop working if this becomes contentious 
for the establishment.