[Peace-discuss] An exchange

Fri Mar 4 14:41:54 UTC 2022

At a certain point, you have to decide whether you want to be part of a
consistent and principled opposition to the Empire or not. If you're
defending Putin now, you've made your decision.

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:35 PM karen aram <karenaram at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Mort, sadly we’ve drawn out the wrath of Bob Naiman who now labels us
> "Putin advocates."
>
> What’s interesting is this is the same form of vilification anti-war
> activists received during the Vietnam war. We were "anti-American for
> criticizing our government.” We were told to get a haircut and/or a job.
>
> I’ve heard the anti-war activists of the ANSWER coalition were treated in
> the same manner, spit on, degraded for their "anti-Americanism," during the
> start of the Iraq war.
>
> Jews protesting the treatment of Palestinians by Israel, were and are
> still labeled self hating Jews, if they're Jewish they can’t be vilified as
> anti-semitic, so self hating Jew is the usual slur. According to Noam
> Chomsky this slur against those questioning, goes back a very long way.
>
> Those opposing the US covert military interventions bombing and killing in
> Syria are referred to as “Assadists." for supporting the Assad government.”
>
> Those opposing the US bombing and destruction of Yemen, by our proxy’s no
> problem, because it’s the Saudi’s doing the dirty work, never mind they
> couldn’t do it without US weapons, training and logistics. So, it’s okay to
> keep up the concern for peace for Yemen, by contacting our Democrat
> Representatives to stop it. Given it’s been seven years now with no
> stopping and a lot of starvation, I would think a different tactic might be
> in order. But never mind, it should all be over soon, with the nation if
> not totally destroyed, in complete chaos, devastation and death. We can all
> cry for Yemen then.
>
> So now, those of us calling attention over the past few months, weeks or
> eight years since 2014, to the US provocations of Russia, because they fear
> nuclear war with Nato encroaching closer to their borders every day, we’re
> referred to as "Putin advocates.”
>
> It’s unfortunate no one was paying attention to us, and now we have war,
> many are crying and urging we pray for the Ukrainian people. As anti-war
> activists I think we know, if we know our history, prayer hasn’t been very
> successful at saving people, lest we forget we have the Holocaust to remind
> us.
>
> What’s most interesting is in the past it was right wingers doing the name
> calling as they are the loyal patriots supporting, "my country right or
> wrong, blame the other guy." Now it’s the so-called liberal left.
>
>
> On Mar 3, 2022, at 6:52 PM, Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> A good question for U.S. peace advocates to ask themselves right now is:
>
> "Am I standing next to Putin's bombing of civilians in Ukraine right now?"
>
> If you're standing next to Putin's bombing of civilians in Ukraine right
> now, why call yourself a peace advocate?
>
> Why not just call yourself a Putin advocate?
>
> If the shoe fits, wear it.
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:08 AM karen aram via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
>> Mort
>>
>> I couldn’t agree with you more. This has been my point, and you have said
>> it so well. I’m pleased to see Colleen Rowley's statement supporting your
>> views as well. It’s interesting  in that she a former CIA legal expert
>> sounds very much like Noam Chomsky, on this very topic in warning what may
>> come if the USG doesn’t stop expanding Nato.
>>
>> There are many of us taking this position, but unfortunately most people
>> and some of the peace groups are focusing too much on simply “anti-war,
>> stop the fighting.” Which is not going to solve the problem, when focusing
>> on other nations, governments than their own. It provides a veneer of that
>> which is not a simple, "russia is bad," that the USG and our corporate
>> owned media promotes.
>>
>> Thank you
>>
>>
>> On Mar 2, 2022, at 10:50 PM, Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>> You might be interested. I thought I would wade into this blast at Russia
>> by these peace groups. My initial remarks were to Marcy at CODEPINK, a
>> group I’ve usually supported.
>>
>> Mort
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> *From: *"Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com>
>> *Subject: **Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out,
>> No NATO Expansion*
>> *Date: *March 2, 2022 at 5:05:56 PM CST
>> *To: *Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>> *Cc: *"Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com>, "rowleyclan at earthlink.net"
>> <rowleyclan at earthlink.net>, "<wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>" <
>> wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>
>>
>> Naive, and worse, in that the statement overlooks(?) and ignores the
>> reason for this crisis in the first place. The US-NATO-Ukraine refusal to
>> consider what Putin/Russia was reasonably demanding for strategic
>> stability, its security. You don’t ask why there was such denial. And now
>> we have a state of turmoil looking, as was the initial intention, to demean
>> and demonize Russia.  Who will profit for this?
>>
>> On Mar 2, 2022, at 11:54 AM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Just to be clear, CODEPINK's principal positions are: Russian troops out
>> of Ukraine, Ceasefire now, Negotiations without preconditions,
>> No NATO Expansion, Neutrality for Ukraine, No weapons to Ukraine, only
>> humanitarian support; No blanket sanctions that will hurt
>> the Russian people as opposed to the oligarchs.
>>
>> I disagree with those who condemn peace groups for opposing the war in
>> Ukraine, the full-scale Russian invasion and high-alert nuclear
>> status. Putin's military aggression, not the peace movement's objection
>> to war as a problem-solver, is what will empower NATO and the most
>> warmongering elements of our government. One can be anti-imperialist
>> without being pro-war.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 7:04 AM rowleyclan at earthlink.net <
>> rowleyclan at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Exactly right, Morton! It's amazing how so much US-NATO imperialist
>>> history of illegal wars of aggression and inciting of violent regime
>>> changes in dozens of foreign countries (all to achieve their
>>> well-publicized goal since WWII of achieving unipolar, full spectrum
>>> dominance) is so quickly and fully erased in the minds of the various
>>> "peace" groups here, making their response to the situation in Ukraine so
>>> one-sided.  This morphing of liberal "peace" groups and lessening of
>>> internal resistance to US-NATO's bloody trajectory (since the costs of
>>> war upon Americans were made nearly invisible after Vietnam
>>> <https://consortiumnews.com/2018/02/04/recipe-concocted-for-perpetual-war-is-a-bitter-one/>)
>>> already became more obvious with Obama-Hillary's continuation of post 9-11
>>> wars and bombing of Libya and Syria.
>>>
>>> But living in this imperial, exceptionalist and so effectively
>>> propagandized U.S.-NATO bubble makes it understandably difficult for most,
>>> even in the "peace movement" to remain fully empathetic with those
>>> foreigners experiencing the actual costs of war and
>>> objective/critical-thinking in their assessment of proportional blame for
>>> the current bloodshed.  Unfortunately we see most "peace" groups here quite
>>> seduced by Samantha Power type "humanitarian imperialism," subsequently
>>> engaging more to protest the "enemy" Russia than to protest their own
>>> government's greater responsibility.  Obviously it takes two to tango so
>>> it's true both sides bear some (although not equal) responsibility in
>>> launching this war.  But the task for Americans should be to protest our
>>> own government's actions instead of demonizing/protesting Russia and
>>> siding, even somewhat siding, with U.S.-NATO's actions and continued war
>>> propaganda.
>>>
>>>   So while it IS fine and good for the Russian people to protest their
>>> own government's actions (and same for Ukrainians to protest their own
>>> government), it should be the same for Americans and Europeans, to protest
>>> their own governments' involvement.  Americans who protest (the "enemy")
>>> Russia are just IMHO aiding and abetting U.S.-NATO's continued militarism
>>> and war plans, which almost always entail "leading from behind" by arming
>>> proxy forces, in this case using/exploiting poor Ukrainians.
>>>
>>> Coleen Rowley
>>>
>>>
>>> "Power is always dangerous. Power attracts the worst and corrupts the
>>> best." --Edward Abbey
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Mar 1, 2022 11:20 PM
>>> To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>>> Cc: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com>, <
>>> wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com> <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No
>>> NATO Expansion
>>>
>>>
>>> Marcy,
>>>  I consider the current conflict as a continuation of US determination
>>> to remain a unipolar hegemon, and Russia (and China, Cuba, Venezuela,…) is
>>> one of the few powerful nations to oppose it.  Russia is therefore
>>> considered to be an enemy of the US, and thus all is acceptable to
>>> undermine it. A similar logic applies for China. NATO is an instrument of
>>> this US policy, and Ukraine is a useful agent to further US aims.
>>>
>>> We all know that the US and NATO have violated international rules
>>> against aggressive wars multiple times,  aggressions against Iraq, Libya,
>>> and Afghanistan, not to mention Yugoslavia, Syria and Palestine. Now that
>>> Russia has struck back, we have this chorus of condemnation.
>>>
>>> What is really at stake is whether the US can continue its imperial
>>> campaigns unhindered. Russia presents a major hindrance.
>>>
>>> Yes, it is horrible that civilians are caught in the middle of this
>>> struggle, but the fundmental reasons for the struggle are geopolitical.  To
>>> have a stable world politically, the vital security  interests of both
>>> sides must be respected. This has not been done, despite claims that there
>>> always exist nonviolent and  just solutions. In some sense, as Putin has
>>> claimed,  the attack on Ukraine is defensive. He has come to understand
>>>  the US determination to subdue Russia, and he is trying to negate it,  to
>>> deal with it.  “He" represents Russian interests. He may fail, but I
>>> sympathize with his quandary, just as I sympathize with those trapped in
>>> the middle of the conflict. Most people want peace, but not all, including
>>> the US administration and NATO which is delighted to have Ukrainians
>>> advance its ends.
>>>
>>>  I’m outraged by US policies.  The resistance by Russia to US/NATO
>>> depredations are mostly welcome, and I regret what many on the left are
>>> doing by their harsh condemnations of Russia. The ubiquity of
>>> these condemnations by peace groups serves to strengthen and mitigate the
>>> imperial acts of the US/NATO complex. This, despite supposedly balanced
>>> criticisms of US/NATO policies by some of these groups.
>>>
>>> —mkb
>>>
>>> On Feb 28, 2022, at 7:30 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> Morton, while there's no denying that NATO and the US have played a
>>> detrimental role in securing world peace & in encircling Russia and
>>> going back on promises, etc., the bottom line is none of that excuses
>>> the Russian invasion of Ukraine---war, as we say, is not the answer. As for
>>> the mention of Chernoybl, it must not be lost on any of us that there
>>> are 15 nuclear reactors in Ukraine, all of which pose a risk in normal
>>> times,
>>> let alone during a war when weapons, even if not intended, can hit a
>>> reactor to contaminate land and water. Putin's decision to issue veiled
>>> threats
>>> to launch nuclear weapons against NATO members and place his nuclear
>>> arsenal on high alert is way out of bounds and underscores the importance
>>> of nuclear abolition. Marcy
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 3:34 PM Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What is wrong with this statement is that it strongly condemns Russia,
>>>> but only criticizes US/NATO, and too late in the statement at that.
>>>>
>>>>  NATO/US/Ukraine refused to consider the so-called red lines that
>>>> Russia warned should not be crossed. It disregards the Russian point of
>>>> view. It does not consider what the US would do if analogous threats were
>>>> evident at US borders.  Russia asserted in writing what it considered *necessary
>>>> conditions* for its security, conditions ignored by NATO/US. Russia
>>>> could back off no further. On a related issue Ukraine/US/NATO talked about
>>>> the Minsk accords but in fact ignored those accords.   Negotiations
>>>> went nowhere.
>>>>
>>>> So who is reponsible for what has now occurred? You have succumbed to a
>>>> bandwagon of condemnation.
>>>>
>>>> Moreover, alarmist and ignorant comments about the Chernobyl reactor
>>>> are ill considered; Russian forces have been very much aware that its
>>>> safety should be ensured.  On the other hand, the nuclear issue should be
>>>> front and center on everybody’s mind.
>>>>
>>>> As for the rest, you make cogent points. But on the whole the statement
>>>> is disappointing.   Meanwhile, more weaponry, troops are flooding into the
>>>> region and sanctions applied so as to  weaken Russia, actions consistent
>>>> with prior statements on various occasions that Russia (and China) are US
>>>>  enemies.
>>>>
>>>> Very dangerous.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 28, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo__;!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR5eKNuD9g$>
>>>>
>>>> CODEPINK Says Stop the War in Ukraine: Russian Troops Out, No NATO
>>>> Expansion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CODEPINK strongly condemns Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, where over
>>>> 350,000 civilians have fled the country in fear of explosive weapons and
>>>> missile attacks, while remaining residents from eastern to western Ukraine
>>>> seek refuge in underground subways and bomb shelters. As an international
>>>> peace organization, we call for an immediate ceasefire, negotiations
>>>> without preconditions, withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine, an end to
>>>> NATO expansion and a return to the negotiating table to address the
>>>> security interests of all stakeholders. We stand in solidarity with the
>>>> Ukrainian people under vicious attack and with the thousands of courageous
>>>> Russian anti-war activists risking arrest and imprisonment to protest in
>>>> the streets of Moscow and St. Petersburg.
>>>>
>>>> There is no military solution to the conflict over Ukraine, a country
>>>> caught in the crossfire between the United States and Russia, the world’s
>>>> two most heavily armed nuclear nations. While we denounce Putin’s
>>>> reckless veiled threat to launch nuclear weapons against NATO countries, we
>>>> also recognize the United States government is culpable in the
>>>> proliferation and deployment of nuclear weapons, and must reverse course on
>>>> its decision to pursue nuclear rearmament and instead advance verifiable
>>>> agreements for global nuclear disarmament.
>>>>
>>>> In condemning Putin’s invasion of a sovereign country, the shelling of
>>>> a Ukrainian hospital, the tanks closing in on Kyiv, we understand the U.S.
>>>> has played a major role in exacerbating this conflict, facilitating a 2014
>>>> coup to overthrow the democratically elected leader of Ukraine and breaking
>>>> promises not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, where offensive missiles
>>>> in Romania and Poland could reach Russia in minutes.
>>>>
>>>> Though some will argue NATO is a defensive alliance of 30 countries, we
>>>> view NATO as a threat to world peace with its military encirclement of
>>>> Russia and support for U.S. military aggression in Kosovo, Afghanistan,
>>>> Iraq and Libya, where an estimated million died under a rain of bombs and
>>>> millions more were displaced. NATO’s aggressive stance on China, another
>>>> nuclear-armed nation, also threatens world peace and efforts to unite in
>>>> the face of existential climate catastrophe.
>>>>
>>>> In advance of the NATO summit in June, CODEPINK calls for an
>>>> international security agreement to protect the interests of all Europeans
>>>> to remain free from war and occupation. Such an agreement should have been
>>>> forged after the fall of the Soviet Union and dissolution of the Warsaw
>>>> Pact; instead the U.S. and NATO sought further militarization in a
>>>> continuance of the Cold War that spawned multiple hot wars, from Korea to
>>>> Vietnam.
>>>>
>>>> To prevent further fighting in Ukraine, to stop the loss of life,
>>>> bloodshed and grave environmental degradation from the bombing of munitions
>>>> plants, let us return to the 2015 Minsk II agreement that established a
>>>> blueprint for peace and an end to the civil war rocking eastern Ukraine.
>>>> Ukraine should be a neutral country; its incorporation into NATO should be
>>>> off the table as a starting point for diplomacy.
>>>>
>>>> During this perilous time, when further military escalation could
>>>> trigger a Chernobyl radioactive meltdown or push us to the brink of nuclear
>>>> annihilation, we urge President Biden and Congress to stop the flow of
>>>> weapons to Ukraine, offer humanitarian assistance and safe refuge instead,
>>>> renew lapsed arms control treaties (Anti-Ballistic Missile, Intermediate
>>>> Range Nuclear Forces, Open Skies) the U.S. abandoned with Russia, and
>>>> reject the imposition of massive sanctions that will harm the Russian
>>>> people who, like us, want peace and security.
>>>>
>>>> Blanket sanctions on the entire Russian economy could spread economic
>>>> and environmental hardship to Europe and potentially the global community
>>>> with energy price hikes that may reduce energy consumption in the short
>>>> term but prompt more oil drilling and lethal burning of fossil fuels in the
>>>> long term.
>>>>
>>>> In solidarity with anti-war protesters in Russia and across Europe, we
>>>> call on the world’s peace-loving people, including conscripted front-line
>>>> soldiers, to join us in a massive unified response to say:
>>>>
>>>> No to War in Ukraine; Yes to Negotiations and Peace.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent
>>>> movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace.
>>>>
>>>> Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not
>>>> advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
>>>> ---
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "WBW discussion" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> an email to wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/CAHKBExqpfrW7XDAsAqM0CWmUF0FR1Pz595NTDqGycZmhCv751w%40mail.gmail.com
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/CAHKBExqpfrW7XDAsAqM0CWmUF0FR1Pz595NTDqGycZmhCv751w*40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer__;JQ!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR4iX9Doxg$>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent
>>> movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace.
>>>
>>> Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not
>>> advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
>>> ---
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "WBW discussion" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to wbw-discussion+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/9A0A1E79-B31C-40B0-9F5A-1AB41464EAF0%40gmail.com
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/9A0A1E79-B31C-40B0-9F5A-1AB41464EAF0%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> *From: *"Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com>
>> *Subject: **Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out,
>> No NATO Expansion*
>> *Date: *March 2, 2022 at 5:05:56 PM CST
>> *To: *Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>> *Cc: *"Morton K. Brussel" <mkb0029 at gmail.com>, "rowleyclan at earthlink.net"
>> <rowleyclan at earthlink.net>, "<wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>" <
>> wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>
>>
>> Naive, and worse, in that the statement overlooks(?) and ignores the
>> reason for this crisis in the first place. The US-NATO-Ukraine refusal to
>> consider what Putin/Russia was reasonably demanding for strategic
>> stability, its security. You don’t ask why there was such denial. And now
>> we have a state of turmoil looking, as was the initial intention, to demean
>> and demonize Russia.  Who will profit for this?
>>
>> On Mar 2, 2022, at 11:54 AM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Just to be clear, CODEPINK's principal positions are: Russian troops out
>> of Ukraine, Ceasefire now, Negotiations without preconditions,
>> No NATO Expansion, Neutrality for Ukraine, No weapons to Ukraine, only
>> humanitarian support; No blanket sanctions that will hurt
>> the Russian people as opposed to the oligarchs.
>>
>> I disagree with those who condemn peace groups for opposing the war in
>> Ukraine, the full-scale Russian invasion and high-alert nuclear
>> status. Putin's military aggression, not the peace movement's objection
>> to war as a problem-solver, is what will empower NATO and the most
>> warmongering elements of our government. One can be anti-imperialist
>> without being pro-war.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 7:04 AM rowleyclan at earthlink.net <
>> rowleyclan at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Exactly right, Morton! It's amazing how so much US-NATO imperialist
>>> history of illegal wars of aggression and inciting of violent regime
>>> changes in dozens of foreign countries (all to achieve their
>>> well-publicized goal since WWII of achieving unipolar, full spectrum
>>> dominance) is so quickly and fully erased in the minds of the various
>>> "peace" groups here, making their response to the situation in Ukraine so
>>> one-sided.  This morphing of liberal "peace" groups and lessening of
>>> internal resistance to US-NATO's bloody trajectory (since the costs of
>>> war upon Americans were made nearly invisible after Vietnam
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://consortiumnews.com/2018/02/04/recipe-concocted-for-perpetual-war-is-a-bitter-one/__;!!DZ3fjg!rqGCLR3hEZ8fxEXrec0z3FsREAPmaDf6bYSm2a5TPSU2awY4CY0yJ-zE7_xkvvxHhw$>)
>>> already became more obvious with Obama-Hillary's continuation of post 9-11
>>> wars and bombing of Libya and Syria.
>>>
>>> But living in this imperial, exceptionalist and so effectively
>>> propagandized U.S.-NATO bubble makes it understandably difficult for most,
>>> even in the "peace movement" to remain fully empathetic with those
>>> foreigners experiencing the actual costs of war and
>>> objective/critical-thinking in their assessment of proportional blame for
>>> the current bloodshed.  Unfortunately we see most "peace" groups here quite
>>> seduced by Samantha Power type "humanitarian imperialism," subsequently
>>> engaging more to protest the "enemy" Russia than to protest their own
>>> government's greater responsibility.  Obviously it takes two to tango so
>>> it's true both sides bear some (although not equal) responsibility in
>>> launching this war.  But the task for Americans should be to protest our
>>> own government's actions instead of demonizing/protesting Russia and
>>> siding, even somewhat siding, with U.S.-NATO's actions and continued war
>>> propaganda.
>>>
>>>   So while it IS fine and good for the Russian people to protest their
>>> own government's actions (and same for Ukrainians to protest their own
>>> government), it should be the same for Americans and Europeans, to protest
>>> their own governments' involvement.  Americans who protest (the "enemy")
>>> Russia are just IMHO aiding and abetting U.S.-NATO's continued militarism
>>> and war plans, which almost always entail "leading from behind" by arming
>>> proxy forces, in this case using/exploiting poor Ukrainians.
>>>
>>> Coleen Rowley
>>>
>>>
>>> "Power is always dangerous. Power attracts the worst and corrupts the
>>> best." --Edward Abbey
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Mar 1, 2022 11:20 PM
>>> To: Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>>> Cc: Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com>, <
>>> wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com> <wbw-discussion at googlegroups.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [wbw-discussion] CODEPINK Statement: Russian Troops Out, No
>>> NATO Expansion
>>>
>>>
>>> Marcy,
>>>  I consider the current conflict as a continuation of US determination
>>> to remain a unipolar hegemon, and Russia (and China, Cuba, Venezuela,…) is
>>> one of the few powerful nations to oppose it.  Russia is therefore
>>> considered to be an enemy of the US, and thus all is acceptable to
>>> undermine it. A similar logic applies for China. NATO is an instrument of
>>> this US policy, and Ukraine is a useful agent to further US aims.
>>>
>>> We all know that the US and NATO have violated international rules
>>> against aggressive wars multiple times,  aggressions against Iraq, Libya,
>>> and Afghanistan, not to mention Yugoslavia, Syria and Palestine. Now that
>>> Russia has struck back, we have this chorus of condemnation.
>>>
>>> What is really at stake is whether the US can continue its imperial
>>> campaigns unhindered. Russia presents a major hindrance.
>>>
>>> Yes, it is horrible that civilians are caught in the middle of this
>>> struggle, but the fundmental reasons for the struggle are geopolitical.  To
>>> have a stable world politically, the vital security  interests of both
>>> sides must be respected. This has not been done, despite claims that there
>>> always exist nonviolent and  just solutions. In some sense, as Putin has
>>> claimed,  the attack on Ukraine is defensive. He has come to understand
>>>  the US determination to subdue Russia, and he is trying to negate it,  to
>>> deal with it.  “He" represents Russian interests. He may fail, but I
>>> sympathize with his quandary, just as I sympathize with those trapped in
>>> the middle of the conflict. Most people want peace, but not all, including
>>> the US administration and NATO which is delighted to have Ukrainians
>>> advance its ends.
>>>
>>>  I’m outraged by US policies.  The resistance by Russia to US/NATO
>>> depredations are mostly welcome, and I regret what many on the left are
>>> doing by their harsh condemnations of Russia. The ubiquity of
>>> these condemnations by peace groups serves to strengthen and mitigate the
>>> imperial acts of the US/NATO complex. This, despite supposedly balanced
>>> criticisms of US/NATO policies by some of these groups.
>>>
>>> —mkb
>>>
>>> On Feb 28, 2022, at 7:30 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> Morton, while there's no denying that NATO and the US have played a
>>> detrimental role in securing world peace & in encircling Russia and
>>> going back on promises, etc., the bottom line is none of that excuses
>>> the Russian invasion of Ukraine---war, as we say, is not the answer. As for
>>> the mention of Chernoybl, it must not be lost on any of us that there
>>> are 15 nuclear reactors in Ukraine, all of which pose a risk in normal
>>> times,
>>> let alone during a war when weapons, even if not intended, can hit a
>>> reactor to contaminate land and water. Putin's decision to issue veiled
>>> threats
>>> to launch nuclear weapons against NATO members and place his nuclear
>>> arsenal on high alert is way out of bounds and underscores the importance
>>> of nuclear abolition. Marcy
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 3:34 PM Morton K. Brussel <mkb0029 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What is wrong with this statement is that it strongly condemns Russia,
>>>> but only criticizes US/NATO, and too late in the statement at that.
>>>>
>>>>  NATO/US/Ukraine refused to consider the so-called red lines that
>>>> Russia warned should not be crossed. It disregards the Russian point of
>>>> view. It does not consider what the US would do if analogous threats were
>>>> evident at US borders.  Russia asserted in writing what it considered *necessary
>>>> conditions* for its security, conditions ignored by NATO/US. Russia
>>>> could back off no further. On a related issue Ukraine/US/NATO talked about
>>>> the Minsk accords but in fact ignored those accords.   Negotiations
>>>> went nowhere.
>>>>
>>>> So who is reponsible for what has now occurred? You have succumbed to a
>>>> bandwagon of condemnation.
>>>>
>>>> Moreover, alarmist and ignorant comments about the Chernobyl reactor
>>>> are ill considered; Russian forces have been very much aware that its
>>>> safety should be ensured.  On the other hand, the nuclear issue should be
>>>> front and center on everybody’s mind.
>>>>
>>>> As for the rest, you make cogent points. But on the whole the statement
>>>> is disappointing.   Meanwhile, more weaponry, troops are flooding into the
>>>> region and sanctions applied so as to  weaken Russia, actions consistent
>>>> with prior statements on various occasions that Russia (and China) are US
>>>>  enemies.
>>>>
>>>> Very dangerous.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 28, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Marcy Winograd <winogradteach at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.codepink.org/codepink_says_stop_the_war_in_ukraine_russian_troops_out_no_nato_expansion?fbclid=IwAR3LUenLt3rwZ890MA_wpP2ks3XB4kRlTRMqiwUTAchNWftxbkKxH1qdMHo__;!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR5eKNuD9g$>
>>>>
>>>> CODEPINK Says Stop the War in Ukraine: Russian Troops Out, No NATO
>>>> Expansion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CODEPINK strongly condemns Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, where over
>>>> 350,000 civilians have fled the country in fear of explosive weapons and
>>>> missile attacks, while remaining residents from eastern to western Ukraine
>>>> seek refuge in underground subways and bomb shelters. As an international
>>>> peace organization, we call for an immediate ceasefire, negotiations
>>>> without preconditions, withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine, an end to
>>>> NATO expansion and a return to the negotiating table to address the
>>>> security interests of all stakeholders. We stand in solidarity with the
>>>> Ukrainian people under vicious attack and with the thousands of courageous
>>>> Russian anti-war activists risking arrest and imprisonment to protest in
>>>> the streets of Moscow and St. Petersburg.
>>>>
>>>> There is no military solution to the conflict over Ukraine, a country
>>>> caught in the crossfire between the United States and Russia, the world’s
>>>> two most heavily armed nuclear nations. While we denounce Putin’s
>>>> reckless veiled threat to launch nuclear weapons against NATO countries, we
>>>> also recognize the United States government is culpable in the
>>>> proliferation and deployment of nuclear weapons, and must reverse course on
>>>> its decision to pursue nuclear rearmament and instead advance verifiable
>>>> agreements for global nuclear disarmament.
>>>>
>>>> In condemning Putin’s invasion of a sovereign country, the shelling of
>>>> a Ukrainian hospital, the tanks closing in on Kyiv, we understand the U.S.
>>>> has played a major role in exacerbating this conflict, facilitating a 2014
>>>> coup to overthrow the democratically elected leader of Ukraine and breaking
>>>> promises not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, where offensive missiles
>>>> in Romania and Poland could reach Russia in minutes.
>>>>
>>>> Though some will argue NATO is a defensive alliance of 30 countries, we
>>>> view NATO as a threat to world peace with its military encirclement of
>>>> Russia and support for U.S. military aggression in Kosovo, Afghanistan,
>>>> Iraq and Libya, where an estimated million died under a rain of bombs and
>>>> millions more were displaced. NATO’s aggressive stance on China, another
>>>> nuclear-armed nation, also threatens world peace and efforts to unite in
>>>> the face of existential climate catastrophe.
>>>>
>>>> In advance of the NATO summit in June, CODEPINK calls for an
>>>> international security agreement to protect the interests of all Europeans
>>>> to remain free from war and occupation. Such an agreement should have been
>>>> forged after the fall of the Soviet Union and dissolution of the Warsaw
>>>> Pact; instead the U.S. and NATO sought further militarization in a
>>>> continuance of the Cold War that spawned multiple hot wars, from Korea to
>>>> Vietnam.
>>>>
>>>> To prevent further fighting in Ukraine, to stop the loss of life,
>>>> bloodshed and grave environmental degradation from the bombing of munitions
>>>> plants, let us return to the 2015 Minsk II agreement that established a
>>>> blueprint for peace and an end to the civil war rocking eastern Ukraine.
>>>> Ukraine should be a neutral country; its incorporation into NATO should be
>>>> off the table as a starting point for diplomacy.
>>>>
>>>> During this perilous time, when further military escalation could
>>>> trigger a Chernobyl radioactive meltdown or push us to the brink of nuclear
>>>> annihilation, we urge President Biden and Congress to stop the flow of
>>>> weapons to Ukraine, offer humanitarian assistance and safe refuge instead,
>>>> renew lapsed arms control treaties (Anti-Ballistic Missile, Intermediate
>>>> Range Nuclear Forces, Open Skies) the U.S. abandoned with Russia, and
>>>> reject the imposition of massive sanctions that will harm the Russian
>>>> people who, like us, want peace and security.
>>>>
>>>> Blanket sanctions on the entire Russian economy could spread economic
>>>> and environmental hardship to Europe and potentially the global community
>>>> with energy price hikes that may reduce energy consumption in the short
>>>> term but prompt more oil drilling and lethal burning of fossil fuels in the
>>>> long term.
>>>>
>>>> In solidarity with anti-war protesters in Russia and across Europe, we
>>>> call on the world’s peace-loving people, including conscripted front-line
>>>> soldiers, to join us in a massive unified response to say:
>>>>
>>>> No to War in Ukraine; Yes to Negotiations and Peace.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent
>>>> movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace.
>>>>
>>>> Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not
>>>> advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
>>>> ---
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>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/CAHKBExqpfrW7XDAsAqM0CWmUF0FR1Pz595NTDqGycZmhCv751w%40mail.gmail.com
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/CAHKBExqpfrW7XDAsAqM0CWmUF0FR1Pz595NTDqGycZmhCv751w*40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer__;JQ!!DZ3fjg!v8exMLl1cgZ4LKAIfw-wIHjvr1ySfN51RqB6_jg0r3Y5h4zE5SWSaSO3VR4iX9Doxg$>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> This is a listserve to discuss the building of a global nonviolent
>>> movement to end war and establish a just and sustainable peace.
>>>
>>> Participants on this list must be respectful toward each other, not
>>> advocate violence, and not promote electoral candidates.
>>> ---
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
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>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/9A0A1E79-B31C-40B0-9F5A-1AB41464EAF0%40gmail.com
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/wbw-discussion/9A0A1E79-B31C-40B0-9F5A-1AB41464EAF0*40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer__;JQ!!DZ3fjg!rqGCLR3hEZ8fxEXrec0z3FsREAPmaDf6bYSm2a5TPSU2awY4CY0yJ-zE7_zs7YLIWg$>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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