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<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>It has been my experience that all the self-proclaimed
socialists - especially in this town - tend to be self-centered,
individualistic libertarian anarchists who are into doing their own thing
and following their own personal agendas - rebelling against bowing to the
collective will or conforming to collective rules imposed on them by the
collective. That is when they are not busy being political gadflies
flitting from one cause to another only to put in a brief appearance with little
mundane grubby work before going on to the next cause. The "Being There"
syndrome where one is a voyeur is a predominant malady in this community;
and witnessing versus participating and acting tends to be the primary
occupation of many supposed activists.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Tahoma">
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=jbw292002@gmail.com
href="mailto:jbw292002@gmail.com">John W.</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 23, 2010 9:29 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=galliher@illinois.edu
href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu">C. G. Estabrook</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net
href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss List</A> ; <A
title="mailto:melodye@nitrogendesign.com CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:melodye@nitrogendesign.com">melodye@nitrogendesign.com</A> ; <A
title="mailto:discuss@lists.communitycourtwatch.org CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:discuss@lists.communitycourtwatch.org">discuss@lists.communitycourtwatch.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Peace-discuss] [Discuss] Fw: What hath got
rot?</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 7:02 PM, C. G. Estabrook <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
title="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu">galliher@illinois.edu</A>></SPAN>
wrote:</DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote><BR> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>Not being a liberal but a socialist, I'm not looking for an
escape route. I<BR>wouldn't have wanted to miss the most interesting and
affecting observation on<BR>this matter that I've seen on this list.
--CGE<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks, Carl. Now here's the rejoinder to that, so as not to
leave anyone out: </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If you and all the other self-styled "socialists" in this town were DOERS,
as Melodye and Bob suggest, rather than mere talkers, you'd be organizing a
credit union, for example, and we'd all pull our money out of Chase Bank and
Bank of America and pool it in our very own Socialist Credit Union, which would
pay far higher returns on investment because there'd be no profit incentive for
stockholders, no big executive salaries, no annual bonuses, and low
administrative costs. We'd loan money to our socialist members for home
mortgages, to lessen the probablility of their losing their homes to foreclosure
by faraway corporate behemoths trafficking in human lives
via sub-prime mortgages and credit default swaps.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>We could also, for example, pool our money in a health insurance pool -
from each according to his ability, and to each according to his need.
That's how the modern-day health insurance companies started out, after all
- as local benevolent associations organized among immigrant groups or
co-workers.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The possibilities are virtually limitless if one is willing to put one's
money where one's mouth is. My experience of the "socialists" in this town
is that it doesn't even occur to them to car-pool to meetings.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John again</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>John W. wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5>On this list, three of us have been and are the harshest
critics of the new<BR>health care 'reform' bill: Carl, Dave Johnson,
and me. I'm curious which of<BR>the three of us has NOT, in the eyes
of Bob and Melodye, worked our asses off<BR>to try to make both the local
community and the larger society a better<BR>place, according to our lights
and talents. Name some fucking names.<BR><BR>The way I see it, most of
the folks on this list have decent health insurance, so they have the luxury
of being "ambivalent" about the health<BR>care bill, reminding us of its
many virtues and counseling us to take a 'wait<BR>and see' approach.
I, on the other hand, have no health insurance, and will<BR>NOT have
Medicare when I'm 65 due to a quirk in the law over which I had and<BR>have
no control. I can't speak for Carl and Dave, but I have
actually<BR>suffered the indignity of sitting in the Frances Nelson Clinic,
getting a<BR>different doctor every time, KNOWING that there were tests not
being<BR>performed because Frances Nelson could not perform them in-house,
and having<BR>pills shoved at me which I KNEW would do no good but which
were all that<BR>Frances Nelson had to offer. Having to present proof of
income documents over<BR>and over so that even Frances Nelson's precious and
scarce resources would<BR>not be "wasted" on me.<BR><BR>The only decent
medical care I've received in LIFE was at McKinley Clinic<BR>when I was a
student at UIUC. They have government-run, "socialized"<BR>medicine
there; the doctors are on salary and all the services are "free",<BR>even
the prescription meds, paid for by a student fee. There I finally
found<BR>a physician (female - God bless her) who cared about me as a human
being, and<BR>ordered tests that were based on what I as a patient NEEDED
rather than on<BR>what I could afford or on what paid the doctor the most
money. Sadly, when I<BR>ceased to be a student I could no longer avail
myself of her services. God<BR>bless her.<BR><BR>So I'm afraid I can't
be as blase as the rest of you about this shitty bill<BR>which leaves health
insurance companies firmly in control. Nothing at all<BR>has changed
for me, not a God-damned thing. And you can bet that if nothing<BR>has
changed for me, it's not changing for millions of other Americans who
are<BR>not, perhaps, as articulate as I am.<BR><BR>Oh, yes, I forgot.
Something HAS changed for me after all, or it will in -<BR>what?
2014? I'll be mandated to purchase a terrible private-sector
health<BR>insurance plan, with money I don't have and with deductibles and
co-pays so<BR>high I won't ever be able to actually use it, or else I'll be
fined for my<BR>failure to purchase it. Please forgive me if I don't
see that as a benefit.<BR><BR>Yeah, I'll shut up now. Every time I try
to talk personal realities "on the<BR>ground" rather than abstractions, all
the liberals' eyes start darting around<BR>the room, looking for an escape
route. Don't think I don't see it.<BR><BR>John
W.<BR><BR><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=im>On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 5:31 PM, Bob Illyes <<A
href="mailto:illyes@uiuc.edu" target=_blank>illyes@uiuc.edu</A>
<mailto:<A href="mailto:illyes@uiuc.edu"
target=_blank>illyes@uiuc.edu</A>>> wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR>Melodye
writes:<BR><BR>"It never ceases to amaze me how some of the biggest critics
(on every<BR>subject) coming out of the shadows have done----
what?"<BR><BR>Precisely, Melodye.<BR><BR>Some pretext is generally behind
this lack of accomplishment. A "Christian"<BR>pretext is that because of
Original Sin it is not possible for a person to do<BR>good. A "Marxist"
pretext is that the middle class will always prevent<BR>political progress,
which isn't possible because the middle class is not yet<BR>destroyed.
Market Fundamentalism supplies its own unsubstantiated theology.<BR>But
don't be fooled. These are just excuses to hold in contempt those who do
their part to leave the world better rather than worse. These critics get
off<BR>on contempt. They attempt to set up abusive relationships with those
who<BR>would do good.<BR><BR>On a slightly different subject, I confess I
have never seen anything quite<BR>so revolting as the Social Darwinian
arguments coming from opponents of the<BR>efforts of our first black
President and our first woman Speaker. (Their race<BR>and gender have
nothing to do with this, right?) In the Gilded Age, it was<BR>seriously
proposed that charity was vice, because it lessened the pressure on<BR>those
on the bottom to change their evil ways. And now the new Gilded Age
has<BR> arrived, with the same recycled pseudo-scientific nonsense,
that we all<BR>already get what we
deserve.....<BR><BR>Bob<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>-- <BR>This
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