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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>No, building infrastructure is not
exactly real productivity in my sense of the term</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>but building infrastructure does provide the means
for productivity to occur. It is </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>easy enough to imagine it being done
unintelligently.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Giving people things on the basis of "entitlements"
(born with a bar code on your ass) is nice enough for sure
and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I am not saying that such things are bad in and of
themselves. I do think that people</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>who get married should have a year off in the
Dorothy Parker sense of business.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I am not familiar enough with your dialect and
culture to know what is a "home visit for new parents".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Usually everyone wants to come see the new baby,
but I suspect you mean something else that is evading me.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>But those things all represent consumption in a
sense not "real productivity", even though they</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>appear to be good and great and pleasant
ideas.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=davegreen84@yahoo.com href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com">David
Green</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=ewj@pigs.ag
href="mailto:ewj@pigs.ag">E.Wayne Johnson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace Discuss</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 16, 2010 11:23
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Peace-discuss] How to win
in November: jobs & income</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV>Building infrastructure, especially intelligently, is real productivity
in your sense of the term. But real productivity would also be home visits for
new parents, etc. In fact, it would also be allowances for new parents, or all
parents, especially the vast majority who are not wealthy.<BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=2 face=Tahoma>
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> E.Wayne Johnson <<A
href="mailto:ewj@pigs.ag">ewj@pigs.ag</A>><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> David Green <<A
href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com">davegreen84@yahoo.com</A>><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Peace Discuss <<A
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</A>><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thu, July 15, 2010 10:05:54
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[Peace-discuss] How to win in November: jobs & income<BR></FONT><BR>
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>That's not the definition of "real productivity"
I was aiming at. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I was considering "real productivity" in the
sense of something actually being</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>produced as opposed to so-called "adding value"
via trading and marketing and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>similar service sector operations.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Employing people to dig holes or break windows is
likewise not "real productivity".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>High-tech-y ways to slaughter masses of people
and blow shtuff up is likewise not "real productivity".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Creating more bureaucracy is likewise
unproductive at best.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>The FED pumped tonnes of money into the economy
by printing (monetary inflation) all during the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Greenspan-Bush era but it didnt go to creating
any tools for manufacturing, or rejuvenating the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>USA's decayed and obsolete manufacturing
facilities and infrastructure.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>It went into a housing bubble, the coffers of
rogue rigged market capitalists, and pockets of criminal bankers and the
other buddies</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>of Bush, Obamamama, et al.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=davegreen84@yahoo.com href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow
target=_blank ymailto="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com">David Green</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=ewj@pigs.ag
href="mailto:ewj@pigs.ag" rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:ewj@pigs.ag">E.Wayne Johnson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace Discuss</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 16, 2010 10:18
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Peace-discuss] How to win
in November: jobs & income</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV>The problem isn't "real productivity," by which economists measure how
much workers produce when they work, per hour. It's unemployment, workers
having no opportunity to be productive at all. The government could print a
trillion dollars (not even borrow it) and, if distributed properly,
would cause little or no inflation, because increased demand would be a
direct result of increased employment--goods and services being produced,
assuming it doesn't all go to the military and defense contractors. There is
that much "unproduced" supply due to the collapse in construction and its
reverberations. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And don't forget that moderate inflation in a prosperous economy
benefits debtors over lenders; generally speaking, workers over investors.
This is part of what caused Shay's Rebellion, and what got us the economic
system we've had since the Framers for their trouble.<BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=2 face=Tahoma>
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> E.Wayne Johnson
<ewj@pigs.ag><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
David Green <davegreen84@yahoo.com><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Peace Discuss
<peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thu, July 15, 2010 9:08:11
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[Peace-discuss] How to win in November: jobs & income<BR></FONT><BR>
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>You are right about moderate inflation being a
result of a growing economy. But that is where</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>there is increasing real productivity. If
the government is inflating by devaluing the currency as they </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>did in the long decline of Rome to fund various
absurdities (like the f in war), that isn't real productivity.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I just enquired with one local worker here and
he said he is fine other than a cough from a cold he had earlier in the
week</FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial>.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>He vigourously denied that the persistence of
his cough is the result of poor health care.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Actually it looks like to me that in the future
the world will be buying cheap artificial goods from Africa as the factories
move there...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I believe that the 90% likelihood of
manufacturing returning to the States is zero. That gives me some
wiggle room.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=davegreen84@yahoo.com href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com"
rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com">David
Green</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=ewj@pigs.ag
href="mailto:ewj@pigs.ag" rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:ewj@pigs.ag">E.Wayne Johnson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace Discuss</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 16, 2010 9:03
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Peace-discuss] How to
win in November: jobs & income</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV>In capitalistic terms, a devaluation will make American-produced
goods more competitive. Whether that works in the era of financial
capitalism and consumer debt, I don't know. But moderate inflation is a
sign of a growing (capitalist) economy. And there's ways to tax that will
shift the burden of inflation upward. Beyond that, public health care is
the only serious source of inflation in our economy, and of course war
would be causing inflationary pressures as it did with Vietnam, if our
economy was in that good of a shape. So the answers to your concerns lie
elsewhere than in the maintenance of artificially cheap goods from China
at the expense of their workers well-being.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>DG<BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=2 face=Tahoma>
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> E.Wayne Johnson
<ewj@pigs.ag><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
David Green <davegreen84@yahoo.com><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Peace Discuss
<peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thu, July 15, 2010 7:50:53
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[Peace-discuss] How to win in November: jobs & income<BR></FONT><BR>
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>How so? Inflation is a regressively
structured tax on the entire population.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Are you hoping that Inflation will kill the
Evil Empire and end the wars or</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>do you have some other hope in
mind?</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=davegreen84@yahoo.com href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com"
rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com">David
Green</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=ewj@pigs.ag
href="mailto:ewj@pigs.ag" rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:ewj@pigs.ag">E.Wayne Johnson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" rel=nofollow
target=_blank ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace
Discuss</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 16, 2010 8:30
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Peace-discuss] How to
win in November: jobs & income</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV><EM><FONT size=2 face=Arial>It looks like to me that a readjustment
of the dollar downward and the RMB upward is
inevitable.</FONT></EM></DIV>
<P><EM><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT></EM> </P>
<P><FONT size=2 face=Arial>In this case, I think "inevitable" means "a
good thing."</FONT></P>
<DIV><EM><BR></EM></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=2 face=Tahoma>
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> E.Wayne Johnson
<<A href="mailto:ewj@pigs.ag" rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:ewj@pigs.ag">ewj@pigs.ag</A>><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> David Green <<A
href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com">davegreen84@yahoo.com</A>>;
John W. <<A href="mailto:jbw292002@gmail.com" rel=nofollow
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:jbw292002@gmail.com">jbw292002@gmail.com</A>>; C. G.
Estabrook <<A href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu" rel=nofollow
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu">galliher@illinois.edu</A>><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> peace discuss <<A
href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" rel=nofollow
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</A>><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thu, July 15, 2010 4:27:53
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[Peace-discuss] How to win in November: jobs &
income<BR></FONT><BR>
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<DIV><EM>No, probably not. But I don't think the deficit (or the
cumulative national debt) is in any way "chimerical" I think it's
very real, and the interest on it alone saps something like a third of
all the income taxes we Americans pay. We owe real money to real
lenders; or else the Fed is simply printing money, which devalues the
currency and creates inflation. Either way or both ways, there's
nothing chimerical about it.</EM></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial>About 2 trillion of US government debt is held by the
Chinese, who recently downgraded the quality of that paper from AAA to
AA. The Chinese wont willingly buy more US debt.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial>The current rate of inflation is about 6%.
It is currently misreported as about 2.5% via the trick called geometric
adjustment of the CPI. An accurate reporting of inflation will
cause mass chaos so they dont dare tell the truth.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial>At an AWARE meeting several months ago I made the
statement that the value of the US dollar would fall by 50% in the next
year. If one considers the price of gold as a measure of the value
of the dollar, indeed the dollar has lost about 50% of its value,
howbeit it took longer than I said it was going to. Part of that
loss in value has been mediated somewhat by trading in virtual gold
(gold that doesnt exist). The Chinese recently also stated that
the dollar has lost 50% of its value, and are no longer buying Treasury
bills but are buying gold like its going out of style. They
have chosen print Renminbi at the same rate that the Fed prints
dollars thus maintaining the peg to the dollar. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial>There was somewhat of a sell off of Treasury bills by
the Chinese some time back but they seem to have agreed to desist rather
than shake the house down.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">In
any event, deficit spending now is needed to put people to work, and
eventually bring the deficit in line with historical levels. Given the
shortage of demand, there is no concern about inflation--in fact,
deflation is more of a concern. Our currency needs to be devalued in
relation to the Chinese, but that will only make domestic products
more competitive. Again, that's a different (but related)
issue.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial>The RMB has been historically drastically undervalued
relative to the dollar. There was a small adjustment some time
back from 8.2xxx to 6.8xxx. The black market rate used to be
10 while the bank would give 8.23xx. No one in China
much wants dollars presently. Devaluing the dollar will
harm Chinese exports but cause Americans to pay more for what they buy,
and the Chinese will pay less for the raw materials and feedstuffs
they buy. US debt is no longer considered to be a safe
haven. It looks like to me that a readjustment of the dollar
downward and the RMB upward is inevitable.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">DG<BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=2 face=Tahoma>
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> John W.
<jbw292002@gmail.com><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> C. G. Estabrook
<galliher@illinois.edu><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> peace discuss
<Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wed, July 14, 2010 10:18:25
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[Peace-discuss] How to win in November: jobs &
income<BR></FONT><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 9:27 PM, C. G.
Estabrook <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu"
rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu">galliher@illinois.edu</A>></SPAN>
wrote:</DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote><BR> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>"...beyond the scope of this post"?! Come on,
John. When did you think anything to be beyond the scope of your
posts?<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>*smile*</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>You're right that Americans are much more
concerned about jobs than about the deficit - in spite of all that
Republicans and Democrats and the entire MSM can do to get them
worried about the chimerical deficit - but Americans doubt
(correctly) that the war is producing many jobs. Our mercenary army,
of course, and some arms manufacturing jobs - but they'd be there
anyway. (Israel e.g. needs weapons.) Americans' first reaction
to an announcement that the US is withdrawing its troops from the
Mideast would not be, "Oh, no, there go our jobs!"<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>No, probably not. But I don't think the deficit (or the
cumulative national debt) is in any way "chimerical" I think
it's very real, and the interest on it alone saps something like a
third of all the income taxes we Americans pay. We owe real
money to real lenders; or else the Fed is simply printing money, which
devalues the currency and creates inflation. Either way or both
ways, there's nothing chimerical about it.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>In fact a withdrawal of US expeditionary forces
abroad would produce a clamor for "building up our defenses" - and
probably scotch any attempt (like the Barney Frank-Ron Paul
proposal) to reduce the military.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>Probably. Because we (collectively) still believe in the
"terrorist" bogeyman, and have absolutely no concept of how American
foreign policy creates and sustains what terrorists there are around
the world.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>How about spending the money going to war actually
to hire people (maybe even to do useful work, like building mass
transit)? The $33.5 billion "supplemental" war budget the
House just passed would pay a lot of wages and salaries - more than
it's doing through the profit-heavy "defense"
industries.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>Well, of course I agree with you here. But apparently a
majority of Americans don't....or at least our "leaders" don't.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>We need a movement (in any political party) that
demands the federal government provide a living-wage job to anyone
who wants one. </BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Though I think your suggestion here is overly simplistic, it
would be lovely.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV class=im>On 7/14/10 9:02 PM, John W. wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV class=im><BR>On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 8:36 PM, C. G. Estabrook
<<A href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu" rel=nofollow
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu">galliher@illinois.edu</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5><mailto:<A href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu"
rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu">galliher@illinois.edu</A>>>
wrote:<BR><BR>[And no one believes any more that the Democrats
will provide that. People<BR>are beginning to notice that the war
is making us poor. --CGE]<BR><BR>I think not, Carl. The
reality is that war generally creates jobs but adds<BR>to the
deficit. America's loss of jobs over the past 30 years is
due, not to<BR>war, but to other factors beyond the scope of this
post. Since according to<BR>the poll Americans are much more
concerned about jobs than about the deficit,<BR>this would support
the very opposite of your tortured reasoning.<BR><BR>Americans
Really Care About Jobs; Deficit, Not so Much By: Jon
Walker<BR>Wednesday July 14, 2010 8:01 am<BR><BR>While collective
deficit hysteria fully grips Washington, what the
American<BR>people really care about is jobs and the economy.
According to a new CBS News<BR>poll, 38 percent of Americans think
the most important problem facing our<BR>country is the economy
and jobs. Second is the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan<BR>at seven
percent. Health care comes in third at about six percent, and
all<BR>the way back in fourth place, with a mere five percent, is
the budget deficit<BR>and national debt.<BR><BR>I have said it
before, but since members of Congress are descending
into<BR>highly destructive deficit insanity, it needs to be said
again. The American<BR>people don’t really care about the deficit.
They consider it to be an issue<BR>that should eventually get
addressed but is a low priority right now. As<BR>common sense
would dictate, with almost 10 percent official unemployment
and<BR>a serious problem of long-term unemployment, what the
American people care<BR>about is jobs.<BR><BR>When the poll
specifically asked people for the most important
economic<BR>problem facing the country, the top response, again at
38 percent, was jobs<BR>and unemployment. That number is even
slightly higher when you consider that<BR>three percent chose the
issue of jobs going overseas. The collective topic of<BR>budget,
national debt and government spending was the top priority for
only<BR>10 percent of the country.<BR><BR>For Washington
politicians to obsess about the deficit at the expense of
job<BR>creation and protection is clearly not what most Americans
want their leaders<BR>to do. Doing the opposite of what the voters
want is an even worse political<BR>move, considering that
increasing average real disposable income is a<BR>significant
predictor of how well the incumbent party will do in the
next<BR>election. So, refusing to extend unemployment insurance,
continue COBRA<BR>subsidies and provide aid to local governments
to prevent massive teacher<BR>layoffs right before an election is
a bad move for the party in power. It is<BR>even worse because the
main excuse given for the focus on the deficit,
bond<BR>vigilantes, is nothing more than a Washington, DC fever
dream with no basis<BR>in reality. The cost of American borrowing
is still much lower than even a<BR>few years ago.<BR><BR>So, this
deficit hysteria is not only misguided policy and morally cruel
but<BR>also extremely bad politics. The pollsters and political
advisers who have<BR>convinced Democrats to focus on the issue at
the expense of aiding regular<BR>Americans are either secretly
trying to destroy the party or are incompetent.<BR>Either way,
they should have been fired yesterday.<BR><BR><A
href="http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2010/07/14/americans-really-care-about-jobs-deficit-not-so-much/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CampaignSilo+%28Jane+Hamsher+Campaign+Silo%29&utm_content=Twitter"
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<P>
<HR>
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<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Peace-discuss
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