<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
The descendants of Abraham were to be as the "Sand". Maybe the long
time it takes to count them is because we are in Shlo-mo?"<br>
<br>
On 8/10/2010 4:05 AM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:4C605F8F.9050300@illinois.edu" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
You've established your Higher Seriousness with your reference to how
"historians Urred from the start". But I think Ur being Chaldeeish...
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 8/9/10 2:53 PM, David Green wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:814421.51877.qm@web65409.mail.ac4.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style>
<div
style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div>The gist of the matter, according to Sand, seems to be this:
the Jews were not expelled from Judea by the Romans after the fall of
the 2nd Temple (70 A.D.); but they did continue to expand their numbers
by proselytizing and conversion around the Greek world (in spite of its
painfulness for men); but Christians turned out to be better at both P
& C (perhaps abetted by being able to C without being C'd; but
there's no evidence offered for that); and that Judaism subsequently
becoming non-proselytizing and relatively exclusionary was in effect
the result of its losing out to the Jesus-freaks in the area of
salesmanship (which again challenges an established Jewish stereotype).
But again, as Sutcliffe stresses, the historical speculation, although
well-founded and well-explained in the book, is less important than the
manner in which the history of Judaism was "invented" in the 19th
century by Reform German Jews--including all the way back to
Abraham--historians Urred from the start in order to construct a
nationalist narrative.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>DG<br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br>
<div
style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font
face="Tahoma" size="2">
<hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
C. G. Estabrook <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu"><galliher@illinois.edu></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> David Green <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com"><davegreen84@yahoo.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> Morton K.
Brussel <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu"><brussel@illinois.edu></a>;
Peace Discuss <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"><peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Mon, August 9,
2010 2:18:55 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[Peace-discuss] Shlomo Sand: The Invention of the Jewish People<br>
</font><br>
<meta content="off" http-equiv="x-dns-prefetch-control">
OK, I'm going to have to read it. I'm teaching a History of
Christianity course in the Religious Studies Department this fall, and
in fact there's been some interesting academic work in the last decade
on the inter-mixture of Judaism and Christianity ca. 200-500CE. I hope
I have students au courant enough to ask about Sand & the the early
relationship between Judaism and Christianity. --CGE<br>
<br>
On 8/9/10 1:00 PM, David Green wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
<div
style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div>Hi Mort,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I'm more than half-way through it, and it's fascinating,
although often tough going. It's also very well-written,
well-translated, or both. I think it gets at historical truths, but
more interestingly (as Adam points out) at historiographical truths
from 19th century Germany, through the origins of Zionism, to the
present. What's done is done, and Israel "exists." But it wouldn't hurt
if people understood the implications of the likelihood that the
Palestinians are descendants of the Judaeans of antiquity, and that
Jews like you and me are almost certainly not. It also says a lot about
the early relationship between Judaism and Christianity that is not
well known.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>DG<br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br>
<div
style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font
face="Tahoma" size="2">
<hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
Morton K. Brussel <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu"
rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu"><brussel@illinois.edu></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> David Green <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
ymailto="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com"><davegreen84@yahoo.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Mon, August
9, 2010 12:30:47 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[Peace-discuss] Shlomo Sand: The Invention of the Jewish People<br>
</font><br>
<base>David,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for sending this along. Have you read Sand's book?
Opinions? There are many on the Amazon web site for this book. Of
course, how to distinguish the politics from the "truth" is a problem
seen there. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Mort</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Aug 9, 2010, at 8:37 AM, David Green wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite"><span
style="widows: 2; text-transform: none; text-indent: 0px; border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: medium; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none; white-space: normal; orphans: 2; letter-spacing: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"
class="Apple-style-span">
<div>
<div
style="margin: 0px; font-family: times,serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div style="margin: 0px;">A brief review of this book by Adam
Sutcliffe, formerly on the faculty here:</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;"> </div>
<div style="margin: 0px;"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.palestine-studies.org/journals.aspx?id=10668&jid=1&href=fulltext"
rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.palestine-studies.org/journals.aspx?id=10668&jid=1&href=fulltext</a></div>
<div style="margin: 0px;"> </div>
</div>
</div>
</span></blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<meta content="on" http-equiv="x-dns-prefetch-control">
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
<hr size="4" width="90%">
_______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss">http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>