<div>May I suggest Francis Schaeffer and/or C.S. Lewis as sources for reading?</div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 2:10 PM, C. G. Estabrook <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu">galliher@illinois.edu</a>></span> wrote:</div>
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<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">Mort--<br><br>[1] I take it that you're volunteering for the panel "Ditchkins and the Pope (and God)" that I'm putting together for News from Neptune on UPTV (date TBA).<br>
<br>I envision four participants - I mean local participants (i.e., not Dawkins, Hitchens, Benedict, & God) - of which you and I are two, discussing the following four texts: <br><br>--R. Dawkins, "The God Delusion";<br>
<br>--C. Hitchens, "God is Not Great";<br><br>--P. Benedict, "Caritas in veritate" (his economic manifesto - in English); and<br><br>--T. Eagleton (standing in for God), <span style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap">"Reason, Faith, and Revolution: Reflections on the God Debate."<br>
<br>Perhaps you can suggest other discussants, or they may volunteer themselves. </span><br><br><br>[2] Far from being “a despicable outrage,” the paragraph from the pope that "set off Dawkins" contains the following true statements:<br>
<br>"...a Nazi tyranny ... denied our common humanity to many, especially the Jews...; [and] <br><br>"...Christian pastors and religious who spoke the truth in love [and] opposed the Nazis ... paid for that opposition with their lives..."<br>
<br>- and the following debatable one (true I think as the Marxists say "in the last instance"):<br><br>"...the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society..."<br>
<br>But that last after all was what he was trying to convince people of. Let's discuss it. <br><br>Regards, Carl<br><br><br>On 9/19/10 11:25 PM, Morton K. Brussel wrote:<br><span style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap">> So what do you disagree with in Dawkins' reply? Arguments would be<br>
> more useful than sneers. Perhaps you should read his book(s) and doff<br>> your parochial hat..<br>> <br>> His remarks were both apt and appreciated...<br>> <br>> <br>> On Sep 19, 2010, at 9:44 PM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:<br>
> <br>>> If anyone took Dawkins seriously before this, I doubt they will<br>>> now.<br>>> <br>>> For those who are still abject believers, I recommend Terry<br>>> Eagleton, "Reason, Faith, and Revolution: Reflections on the God<br>
>> Debate" (Yale UP pbk, 2010).<br>>> <br>>> If I thought anyone took Ditchkins seriously, I'd propose a<br>>> symposium or panel on the subject. I doubt I'd find many takers.<br>>> <br>
>> Actually, I'd be willing to host it on my UPTV program, News from<br>>> Neptune.<br>>> <br>>> But I don't think anyone's interested enough for that.<br>>> <br>>> ...<br>>>> <br>
>>> Richard Dawkins Furious At Pope For Tying Godless To Nazis<br>>>> <br>>>> Posted in Liberaland by Alan • September 17, 2010,<br>>>> <br>>>> Pope Benedict’s speech to Queen Elizabeth in England praised how <br>
>>> Britain fought “Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from <br>>>> society,” prompting one of the world’s best known atheists,<br>>>> Richard Dawkins, to proclaim it “a despicable outrage.” What set<br>
>>> off Dawkins is this paragraph:<br>>>> <br>>>> “Even in our own lifetime, we can recall how Britain and her<br>>>> leaders stood against a Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God<br>
>>> from society and denied our common humanity to many, especially<br>>>> the Jews, who were thought unfit to live. I also recall the<br>>>> regime’s attitude to Christian pastors and religious who spoke<br>
>>> the truth in love, opposed the Nazis and paid for that opposition<br>>>> with their lives. As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the<br>>>> atheist extremism of the twentieth century, let us never forget<br>
>>> how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life<br>>>> leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and<br>>>> thus to a “reductive vision of the person and his destiny”<br>
>>> (Caritas in Veritate, 29).”<br>>>> <br>>>> Dawkins responds:<br>>>> <br>>>> Even if Hitler had been an atheist, his political philosophy was<br>>>> not based upon atheism and had no connection with atheism. Hitler<br>
>>> was arguably (and by his own account) a Roman Catholic. In any<br>>>> case he enjoyed the open support of many of the most senior<br>>>> catholic clergy in Germany and the less demonstrative support of<br>
>>> Pope Pius XII. Even if Hitler had been an atheist (he certainly<br>>>> was not), the rank and file Germans who carried out the attempted<br>>>> extermination of the Jews were Christians, almost to a man:<br>
>>> either Catholic or Lutheran, primed to their anti-Semitism by<br>>>> centuries of Catholic propaganda about ‘Christ-killers’ and by<br>>>> Martin Luther’s own seething hatred of the Jews. To mention<br>
>>> Ratzinger’s membership of the Hitler Youth might be thought to be<br>>>> fighting dirty, but my feeling is that the gloves are off after<br>>>> this disgraceful paragraph by the pope.<br>>>> <br>
>>> Dawkins is urging a letter-writing campaign to British media in<br>>>> protest, adding:<br>>>> <br>>>> I am incandescent with rage at the sycophantic BBC coverage, and<br>>>> the sight of British toadies bowing and scraping to this odious<br>
>>> man. I thought he was bad before. This puts the lid on it.</span></div></blockquote>