<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
That quite remarkable contempt for the political perspicacity of
your fellow citizens is all too typical of the political class in
this country, but it's not very democratic. <br>
<br>
The federal government doesn't quite agree with you. That's why it
spends so much time and money on "the manufacture of consent" (and
why snake-oil salesmen like Obama get ahead). The public has to be
managed, not indulged, they think - it's their only real enemy, as
Vietnam showed.<br>
<br>
That after all was Jefferson's view: he thought that people "are
naturally divided into two parties: (1.) Those who fear and distrust
the people, and wish to draw all powers from them into the hands of
the higher classes. (2.) Those who identify themselves with the
people, have confidence in them, cherish and consider them as the
most honest and safe, although not the most wise depositary of the
public interests."<br>
<br>
I'm a democrat, so not a Democrat. --CGE<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/21/10 9:51 AM, Gregg Gordon wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:965451.22337.qm@web114409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif;
font-size: 12pt;">
<div>I don't disagree with any of that. So what? And as for
wars for oil, maybe you better hope they <em>keep</em> lying
about it, because if Americans were confronted with that stark
reality, most of them might be down with it. When Alan
Greenspan said so publicly, there was no big outcry. Barely
lasted a full news cycle. I remember seeing a bumper sticker
when the Iraq war started: "Kick their ass. Take their
gas." I think that's basically where most Americans are on
the issue, and the main reason the Iraq war has become so
unpopular (people were 2-1 in favor at the time, if the polls
can be believed) is that the cheap gas never materialized.
We're still paying through the nose. Most people support
resumed drilling in the Gulf right now. They don't care if it
turns into the Rancho La Brea tar pits. They want gasoline
for their cars. I saw a poll just within the last week --
can't remember exactly, but something like, would you be
willing to pay an additional 4 cents a gallon for, I don't
know -- lower CO2 emissions or something. The majority said,
"No." So that's where you need to start -- not with the
Democrats. I think the Democrats are about the left party
that the American left deserves right now. We've
been ineffectual and inept. That's our reward.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,new
york,times,serif;"><br>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,new
york,times,serif;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2">
<hr size="1">
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> C. G.
Estabrook <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu"><galliher@illinois.edu></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Gregg
Gordon <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ggregg79@yahoo.com"><ggregg79@yahoo.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> Jenifer
Cartwright <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jencart13@yahoo.com"><jencart13@yahoo.com></a>; Peace-discuss
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"><peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thu,
October 21, 2010 9:03:01 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Fw: Money Can't Vote<br>
</font><br>
On the Carter administration, see the famous interview his
National Security Adviser gave to Le Nouvel Observateur in
1998: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html"
target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html></a>
(in English)...<br>
<br>
"Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic
fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future
terrorists?<br>
"B: What is most important to the history of the world? The
Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? <i>Some
stirred-up Moslems</i> [sic] or the liberation of Central
Europe and the end of the cold war?..."<br>
<br>
It's true that the US has been committing crimes in order to
control Mideast oil since the Truman administration, when we
saw that we could displace an exhausted Britain in the
region. First, British oil companies were replaced with
American ones, and concomitantly the US began the policy -
which Obama continues - of controlling the countries of the
region by alliance, subversion, or aggressive war (= what we
were busily condemning German leaders for, at Nuremberg).
<br>
<br>
Benchmarks are our destruction of democratic government in
Iran (1953), which Americans have forgotten but the Iranians
haven't; adoption of Israel as our "cop on the beat" (as the
Nixon administration said) after they launched their 1967
war to destroy secular Arab nationalism; our sponsorship of
Saddam Hussein in the Iraq-Iran war, 1980-88; our covert
sponsorship of the religious-based Hamas to undercut the
secular PLO; and Clinton's murderous sanctions on Iraq (by
which he killed as many people as Bush did, many of them
children whose deaths were "worth it," according to
Clinton's Secretary of State).<br>
<br>
The US has consistently demanded control of Mideast energy
resources since WWII, not because we need them - the US was
a net exporter of oil until recently, and now imports less
than 10% of the oil we use at home from the Mideast, mostly
from our ally Saudi Arabia - but because control of world
hydrocarbon supplies gives us an advantage over our real
economic rivals, the EU and East Asia (China and Japan).
That's what Obama (and other presidents) is sending
Americans to kill and die for, so it's obvious that he like
the others has to invent excuses, especially when two-thirds
of the US public, even though they're being lied to, thinks
the war a bad idea. <br>
<br>
When Al Qaeda launched their criminal raids on US cities in
2001, they were clearly and consciously staging a
counter-attack to more than a generation of US crimes in the
Mideast. They said at the time that there were three
reasons for their counterattack: (1) the sanctions on Iraq,
called "genocidal" by successive UN overseers; (2) the
suppression of h the Palestinians by America's chief client,
Israel; and (3) the occupation of Saudi Arabia (and the
Muslim holy places) by American troops after Bush I's Gulf
war, in 1991. <br>
<br>
It's not just those who point out that the Obama
administration is, by and large, Bush's third term who note
the continuity of US policy in the Mideast, which Obama if
anything has intensified - as he said he would, as far back
as his campaign for the Senate, when he discussed "surgical
strikes" on Iran, still I think a real possibility, along
with open war with Pakistan. BHO is down with the program,
and only a few are criticizing it - of course many more in
the country that in Congress.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/21/10 8:05 AM, Gregg Gordon wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new
roman,new york,times,serif;">
<div>Well, that strikes me as quite a stretch to lay
responsibility for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars on
the back of Jimmy Carter. I could take your logic
just a small step further and put it on FDR. Or
William McKinley. Or James K. Polk. Plus it ignores
the question of why three subsequent Republican
presidents failed to end it, as your premise indicates
they should have done. It is a sad fact that since
the disastrous and misguided McGovern campaign (God
bless him), Democrats have been so bullied and
intimidated by charges of being anti-military (not
that there's anything wrong with that) that they too
often feel compelled to prove they have gonads. I
thought Clinton kept Saddam around just to have
somebody to bomb when he needed to look tough. That's
murderous and deplorable and certainly won't get him
into heaven, but that's the political landscape we
find ourselves in. Deal with it. Anyway, wealth and
power breed arrogance. Americans, like the British,
Spanish, Romans, and every great empire before us,
think we should have our way just because God
obviously loves us so. (If He didn't, we wouldn't be
an empire.) That's human nature, and liberals are
just as susceptible to it as conservatives. More
often than not, Democratic militarism just takes the
form of seeing to it that veterans actually receive
the benefits they've been promised, for which they get
no credit whatsoever. And "spineless" is not the same
as "evil" in my eyes. The "spineless" need to be
encouraged. The "evil" need to be stopped. Who can
blame the Democrats for being spineless? Who's got
their backs? The left?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I'm a Bernie Sanders kind of guy. I don't really
consider myself a Democrat, but I caucus with them
because I think the alternative is so much worse. But
if you <em>really</em> can't see <em>any</em>
difference between, say, Karl Rove and Dennis
Kucinich, I'm not going to waste any more time arguing
with you. You're not serious.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new
roman,new york,times,serif;"><br>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new
roman,new york,times,serif;"><font face="Tahoma"
size="2">
<hr size="1">
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
C. G. Estabrook <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu"
target="_blank" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu"><galliher@illinois.edu></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
Gregg Gordon <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:ggregg79@yahoo.com" target="_blank"
rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:ggregg79@yahoo.com"><ggregg79@yahoo.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b>
Jenifer Cartwright <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:jencart13@yahoo.com"
target="_blank" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:jencart13@yahoo.com"><jencart13@yahoo.com></a>;
Peace List <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:peace@lists.chambana.net"
target="_blank" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:peace@lists.chambana.net"><peace@lists.chambana.net></a>;
Peace-discuss <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
target="_blank" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"><peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Wed, October 20, 2010 11:09:24 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Fw: Money Can't Vote<br>
</font><br>
First, Iraq and Afghanistan are both part of what
the Pentagon calls "The Long War" (for oil) in the
Mideast. So far, the US has killed a million people
in Iraq under Clinton (whose Secretary of State said
that the tens of thousands of dead children were
"worth it"); a million under Bush; and apparently
hundreds of thousands in AfPak under Bush and his
third (Obama) term.<br>
<br>
That falls short of the perhaps 4 million we killed
in SE Asia, but of course Obama's escalated murders
in SW Asia are in no way justified by being fewer in
number than Kennedy-Johnson-Nixon's in Vietnam. <br>
<br>
It's difficult to determine when the Long War
begins, but it takes a tick up in the Carter
administration when Carter (and Obama's) adviser
Zbigniew Brzezinski sends Osama bin Laden and
friends into Afghanistan (before the Russian
invasion) "to give the Russians a Vietnam of their
own," as he said at the time, in the most expensive
CIA operation to date.<br>
<br>
If a Republican administration after 2012 brings
Obama's AfPak war to an end, then we'll have a third
example of a Democratic war concluded by Republicans
in as many generations. But that may not be likely.
The news suggests that the Obama administration is
looking to expand the war with an attack on Pakistan
and/or Iran. It certainly isn't looking to abandon
the world's greatest energy-producing region.<br>
<br>
Control of Mideast energy resources has been a
cornerstone of US foreign policy since 1945. Obama
is simply lying when he says the war is to "stop
terrorism" - it obviously increases terrorism - but
he has to lie, because the only Constitutional
authority he has to wage war in the Mideast is
Congress' "Authorization for the Use of Military
Force" of September 2001 - which is directed against
terrorism. <br>
<br>
Something positive to do: years ago, there was a
great debate in America, "How do we get out of
Vietnam?" The best answer was given by Herb Caen:
"Ships and planes." Load up the troops and bring
them home. The Russians did - and survived and
prospered from the end of their war.<br>
<br>
Eventually we did, but it took two presidents' being
driven from office and (even more important) a
revolt of the American conscript army to do it. <br>
<br>
Regards, CGE<br>
<br>
On 10/20/10 7:15 PM, Gregg Gordon wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times
new roman,new york,times,serif;">
<div>So I conclude from your statement that you
don't consider either Iraq or Afghanistan to
be "major" wars. So why are you so worked up
about them? I think you're just still mad at
Lyndon Johnson.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>And please, don't accuse me of being some
kind of racist who doesn't mind us murdering
brown people. That is <em>so</em> lame.
It's just that not all of us see the world in
as simple terms as you seem to. Simple
solutions are nice, but they're mainly for the
simple-minded.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>All I'm saying is if you're so gung-ho on
stopping the war, why don't you come up with
something positive to do (as opposed to
sniping from the sidelines) that might help
get us closer to that goal? We'll all get
behind you.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times
new roman,new york,times,serif;"><br>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family:
times new roman,new york,times,serif;"><font
face="Tahoma" size="2">
<hr size="1">
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
C. G. Estabrook <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu"
target="_blank" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu"><galliher@illinois.edu></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
Gregg Gordon <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:ggregg79@yahoo.com"
target="_blank" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:ggregg79@yahoo.com"><ggregg79@yahoo.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b>
Jenifer Cartwright <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:jencart13@yahoo.com"
target="_blank" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:jencart13@yahoo.com"><jencart13@yahoo.com></a>;
Peace List <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:peace@lists.chambana.net"
target="_blank" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:peace@lists.chambana.net"><peace@lists.chambana.net></a>;
Peace-discuss <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
target="_blank" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"><peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Wed, October 20, 2010 5:10:40 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Fw: Money
Can't Vote<br>
</font><br>
You are aware, are you not, that America's
major wars since WWII - called by synecdoche
"Korea" and "Vietnam" - were started by
Democratic administrations and ended by
Republican administrations. Since the
current Democratic administration has
greatly expanded the killing in AfPak, it's
hard to argue that they're going to reverse
their policies. Voting for them is an
acquiescence to those policies. <br>
<br>
To say of Obama and the Democrats, "Let them
kill some Asians, because they might do some
good someplace else," is at best a counsel
of despair, if not an outright criminal
attitude. Particularly when it seems that
they're doing precisely the wrong things
elsewhere, too - not surprisingly, because
they're working for the owners of the banks,
the insurance companies, the oil and
construction companies, etc. --CGE<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/20/10 4:48 PM, Gregg Gordon wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family:
times new roman,new york,times,serif;">
<div>Maybe because there are other
important issues that she <em>does</em>
agree with him on. The only way
you're going to find a candidate
you're in 100% agreement with is to
run for office. If support for the
war is an absolute deal breaker for
you, fine. Not everybody sees it that
way. But if you think the war will
end sooner if more Republicans get
elected, I think you're out of your
mind.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt;
font-family: times new roman,new
york,times,serif;"><br>
<div style="font-size: 12pt;
font-family: times new roman,new
york,times,serif;"><font
face="Tahoma" size="2">
<hr size="1">
<b><span style="font-weight:
bold;">From:</span></b> C. G.
Estabrook <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu"
target="_blank" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu"><galliher@illinois.edu></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:
bold;">To:</span></b> Jenifer
Cartwright <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:jencart13@yahoo.com"
target="_blank" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:jencart13@yahoo.com"><jencart13@yahoo.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:
bold;">Cc:</span></b> Peace
List <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:peace@lists.chambana.net"
target="_blank" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:peace@lists.chambana.net"><peace@lists.chambana.net></a>;
Peace-discuss <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
target="_blank" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"><peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:
bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wed,
October 20, 2010 4:33:52 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:
bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[Peace] [Peace-discuss] Fw: Money
Can't Vote<br>
</font><br>
This guy supports the war. I can't
see why anyone on an anti-war list
would contribute to him.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/20/10 4:28 PM, Jenifer
Cartwright wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
<table border="0" cellpadding="0"
cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign="top"><font
class="Apple-style-span"
size="4"><span
class="Apple-style-span"
style="font-size:
10pt;">Another request
for help...</span></font>
<div><font
class="Apple-style-span"
size="3"><span
class="Apple-style-span"
style="font-size:
13px;">I love this
guy!</span></font></div>
<div><font
class="Apple-style-span"
size="3"><span
class="Apple-style-span"
style="font-size:
13px;"> --Jenifer</span></font><br>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>