<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><DIV>I think the problem is that some people see left-liberals ("progressives") as filling the breach between "democratic capitalism" (an oxymoron, but an abiding faith nonetheless), and Soviet Communism (state capitalism). So libertarian socialism seems itself like an oxymoron rather than the sensible conception that it is (incorporating freedom and self-government); and moreover deprives themselves (liberals, progressives) a privileged place in the struggle for "capitalism with a human face." That's what the "vital center" was about during the Cold War, but at least then there were "real" Communists and the recent shadow of Hitler. Now all they have is Islamic terrorists and the Tea Party to be afraid of.</DIV>
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<DIV>DG</DIV>
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<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> C. G. Estabrook <galliher@illinois.edu><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Laurie Solomon <ls1000@live.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Brussel <brussel@illinois.edu>; Peace-discuss List <peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thu, October 21, 2010 3:57:41 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Peace-discuss] DN: NAACP Report Ties Tea Party to Militia andRacist Groups<BR></FONT><BR>
<META content=off http-equiv=x-dns-prefetch-control>Uh, Laurie? What does one have to be/believe/do to be an actual socialist? Let me know, and I'll see if I measure up.<BR><BR>Meanwhile, what I think anyone would recognize as a socialist position was set out in lapidary fashion by Noam Chomsky in his famous lecture "Government in the Future," 40 years ago. There he outlined what was called libertarian socialism in 20th century Europe and contrasted it with Soviet Communism and American corporatism. Libertarian socialism - anarchism - is a critique of Leninism from the Left: Lenin wrote against people who held that view in <I>"Left-Wing" Communism: An Infantile Disorder </I>(1920).<BR><BR>It has an honorable history through Rosa Luxembourg, the Council Communists, the Spanish Anarchists (see Orwell's <I>Homage to Catalonia</I>), on into the American New Left. It hasn't gone away; I heard Chomsky's lecture, was happy to sign up then, and have
seen no reason to abandon my youthful faith in the intervening years. --CGE<BR><BR><BR>On 10/21/10 3:41 PM, Laurie Solomon wrote:
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<DIV>Actually, I will give him the benefit of the doubt about having empirical supporting data to back up his assertion that "There are more anti-war teapartiers than anti-war Democrats" ask for the exact number of tea-partiers there actually are as compared to the exact number of Democrat there actually are and the exact number and percentage of those total number of tea-partiers that are anti-war as compared with the same for total Democrats and anti-war Democrats. If he has the empirical data (as opposed to opinion or speculation) to support his statement that "There are more anti-war teapartiers than anti-war Democrats", he surely will have no trouble supplying me with the numbers and percentages as well as citing the sources of that data.</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>As for his statement, "</FONT>As an (actual) socialist, I deplore that fact", I cannot question the part where he says he deplores that fact ; but with respect to the first part of the statement, I would suggest that he is no more an "actual socialist" philosophically, ideologically, or practically than he is a race horse, a palm tree, or a rocket ship except in his own mind and his self-attaching the label to himself and his beliefs. To be sure, his believes may contain some elements drawn from the socialist tradition and some of his actions may have a socialist element to them;<FONT face=Calibri> but that does not make him an "actual socialist" whatever the hell that means any more than standing in a garage makes one an automobile.</FONT><BR></DIV>
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<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=brussel@illinois.edu href="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu">Brussel</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 21, 2010 2:38 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=galliher@illinois.edu href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu">C. G. Estabrook</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss List</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Peace-discuss] DN: NAACP Report Ties Tea Party to Militia andRacist Groups</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Karen,
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<DIV>Ask Carl where he gets his data (re. his first line below). Ask where most of the funding, who are the biggest contributors, and where most of the PR for the Tea party comes from. And so what conclusion may one draw?</DIV>
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<DIV>Don't be surprised if he switches the subject, refuses to answer, or cannot answer, because he doesn't have reliable sources. </DIV>
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<DIV>--mkb</DIV>
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<DIV>On Oct 21, 2010, at 10:18 AM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:</DIV><BR class=Apple-interchange-newline>
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<DIV>Come on, Karen. There are more anti-war teapartiers than anti-war Democrats.<BR><BR>Obama's co-option of the anti-war movement meant that there is no parallel among the Democrats to Ron Paul's movement of principled opposition to the war, nor to that of libertarians and paleoconservatives around the website <A href="http://antiwar.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>Antiwar.com</A> or the journal <I>The American Conservative</I>. <BR><BR>As an (actual) socialist, I deplore that fact. <BR><BR>On 10/21/10 9:30 AM, Karen Medina wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE>I did notice that there were very few "constitutionalists" around
before the scare tactic of "they are going to give health care to
undocumented immigrants" became popular.
Very few of the tea-partiers are in the anti-war movement.
All I am saying is that it is easy to count the ones that are consistent.
With the ones that are inconsistent, it is harder to count them, but
it is easy to tell if they have read the constitution.
-karen medina
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