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<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>First, it was you who made the point of claiming to be
an "actual" socialist as contrasted to merely a socialist, a quasi
socialist, a pseudo socialist, a fake socialist, a false socialist,
etc. It was not me that made or suggested the distinction between
"actual" and "non-actual." Since I do not have the slightest idea what an
"actual" socialist is as opposed to some other type of socialist nor do I know
the criteria which distinguishes an actual socialist from any other type of
socialist (after all it is your distinction), it is not up to me to
specify - nor can I specify - what one has to be/believe/do to
be an actual socialist as opposed to any other type of socialist
needs to use as a measure to make said determination.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>Second, socialism for me is a philosophical and
political tradition composed of a widely diverse variety of different
renditions, versions, and/or implementations of the tradition that have some
common elements that are shared among them to varying degrees with no single set
of features being shared in common by each and every different version of
that tradition. Fabian Socialism is not identical to<FONT
face="Times New Roman"> utopian socialism which is not identical to
anarcho-syndicalism<STRONG> </STRONG>varieties of socialism which is not
identical to guild socialism which is not identical to revisionist
socialism which is not identical to what you are calling libertarian
socialism or other forms of socialism. Believers or followers
of</FONT> </FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman"> any of these could be called
a socialist and even an "actual" socialist; so the notion as far as I can
tell of an "actual" socialist has little or no meaning since almost anyone who
shares one or more philosophical, ideological, or practical tenets of any of
theses variations of socialism could consider and call themselves an "actual"
socialist. In short the notion and label of "actual socialist" is nothing
more than a name similar to that designated by the term "racer horse," "palm
tree," and/or "rocket ship." If you believed in total in all the tenets of
libertarian socialism as set forth by Chomsky or anyone else, you might and
probably should call yourself a follower of libertarian socialism or Chomsky
defined socialism rather than an "actual socialist." If you believe
in a selection of tenets drawn from a variety of different versions of socialism
within the tradition rather than all the tenets from a single version, then you
might call yourself a follower or believer in the socialist tradition as a
general philosophical, ideological, and/or practical position rather than being
identified with any given sect of socialism, which you stipulate to be the true
authentic actual socialism.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Tahoma">
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT><FONT size=3
face=Calibri></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu">C. G. Estabrook</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 21, 2010 3:57 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A
title="mailto:ls1000@live.com CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:ls1000@live.com">Laurie Solomon</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A
title="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu">Brussel</A> ; <A
title="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss List</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Peace-discuss] DN: NAACP Report Ties Tea Party to
Militia andRacist Groups</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Uh, Laurie? What does one have to be/believe/do to be an actual
socialist? Let me know, and I'll see if I measure up.<BR><BR>Meanwhile,
what I think anyone would recognize as a socialist position was set out in
lapidary fashion by Noam Chomsky in his famous lecture "Government in the
Future," 40 years ago. There he outlined what was called libertarian socialism
in 20th century Europe and contrasted it with Soviet Communism and American
corporatism. Libertarian socialism - anarchism - is a critique of Leninism
from the Left: Lenin wrote against people who held that view in <I>"Left-Wing"
Communism: An Infantile Disorder </I>(1920).<BR><BR>It has an honorable history
through Rosa Luxembourg, the Council Communists, the Spanish Anarchists (see
Orwell's <I>Homage to Catalonia</I>), on into the American New Left. It hasn't
gone away; I heard Chomsky's lecture, was happy to sign up then, and have seen
no reason to abandon my youthful faith in the intervening years.
--CGE<BR><BR><BR>On 10/21/10 3:41 PM, Laurie Solomon wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:COL119-DS54F5BD400F1BC487FFEABBD5D0@phx.gbl type="cite">
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<DIV>Actually, I will give him the benefit of the doubt about having empirical
supporting data to back up his assertion that "There are more anti-war
teapartiers than anti-war Democrats" ask for the exact number of tea-partiers
there actually are as compared to the exact number of Democrat there actually
are and the exact number and percentage of those total number of tea-partiers
that are anti-war as compared with the same for total Democrats and anti-war
Democrats. If he has the empirical data (as opposed to opinion or
speculation) to support his statement that "There are more anti-war
teapartiers than anti-war Democrats", he surely will have no trouble supplying
me with the numbers and percentages as well as citing the sources of that
data.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>As for his statement, "</FONT>As an (actual)
socialist, I deplore that fact", I cannot question the part where he says he
deplores that fact ; but with respect to the first part of the statement,
I would suggest that he is no more an "actual socialist"
philosophically, ideologically, or practically than he is a race horse, a palm
tree, or a rocket ship except in his own mind and his self-attaching the label
to himself and his beliefs. To be sure, his believes may contain some
elements drawn from the socialist tradition and some of his actions may have a
socialist element to them;<FONT face=Calibri> but that does not make him
an "actual socialist" whatever the hell that means any more than standing in a
garage makes one an automobile.</FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Tahoma">
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: rgb(245,245,245)">
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=brussel@illinois.edu
href="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu" moz-do-not-send="true">Brussel</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 21, 2010 2:38 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=galliher@illinois.edu
href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu" moz-do-not-send="true">C. G. Estabrook</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">Peace-discuss List</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Peace-discuss] DN: NAACP Report Ties Tea Party to
Militia andRacist Groups</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Karen,
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Ask Carl where he gets his data (re. his first line below). Ask where
most of the funding, who are the biggest contributors, and where most of the
PR for the Tea party comes from. And so what conclusion may one draw?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Don't be surprised if he switches the subject, refuses to answer, or
cannot answer, because he doesn't have reliable sources. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>--mkb</DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Oct 21, 2010, at 10:18 AM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">Come on, Karen. There are more
anti-war teapartiers than anti-war Democrats.<BR><BR>Obama's co-option of
the anti-war movement meant that there is no parallel among the Democrats to
Ron Paul's movement of principled opposition to the war, nor to that of
libertarians and paleoconservatives around the website <A
href="http://Antiwar.com" moz-do-not-send="true">Antiwar.com</A> or the
journal <I>The American Conservative</I>. <BR><BR>As an (actual) socialist,
I deplore that fact. <BR><BR>On 10/21/10 9:30 AM, Karen Medina wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE
cite=mid:AANLkTimcYfa1ye2PA0=B1rvtp2Jsk+Zx-rSHUtJ=-gy7@mail.gmail.com
type="cite"><PRE wrap="">I did notice that there were very few "constitutionalists" around
before the scare tactic of "they are going to give health care to
undocumented immigrants" became popular.
Very few of the tea-partiers are in the anti-war movement.
All I am saying is that it is easy to count the ones that are consistent.
With the ones that are inconsistent, it is harder to count them, but
it is easy to tell if they have read the constitution.
-karen medina
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