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"...Obama is forever 'murdering' people around the world rather than
that his (administration's) policies indeed lead to the slaughter of
innocents..." <br>
--M. Brussel<br>
<br>
"Killing one person is murder; killing thousands is foreign policy"<br>
--bumper sticker purchased from AWARE table at Farmers' Market <br>
<br>
I met Murder on the way -<br>
He had a mask like Castlereagh* -<br>
Very smooth he looked, yet grim;<br>
Seven blood-hounds followed him:<br>
<br>
All were fat; and well they might<br>
Be in admirable plight,<br>
For one by one, and two by two,<br>
He tossed the human hearts to chew<br>
Which from his wide cloak he drew.<br>
<br>
Next came Fraud, and he had on,<br>
Like Eldon, an ermined gown;<br>
His big tears, for he wept well,<br>
Turned to mill-stones as they fell.<br>
<br>
And the little children, who<br>
Round his feet played to and fro,<br>
Thinking every tear a gem,<br>
Had their brains knocked out by them...<br>
<br>
'And that slaughter to the Nation<br>
Shall steam up like inspiration,<br>
Eloquent, oracular;<br>
A volcano heard afar.<br>
<br>
'And these words shall then become<br>
Like Oppression's thundered doom<br>
Ringing through each heart and brain,<br>
Heard again - again - again -<br>
<br>
'Rise like Lions after slumber<br>
In unvanquishable number -<br>
Shake your chains to earth like dew<br>
Which in sleep had fallen on you -<br>
Ye are many - they are few.'<br>
<br>
--from "The Masque of Anarchy," by Percy Bysshe Shelley, written on
the occasion of the "Peterloo Massacre" carried out by the British
Government at St Peter's Field, Manchester, on 16 August 1819, when
cavalry charged into a crowd of 60,000–80,000 gathered at a meeting
to demand the reform of parliamentary representation. (Cf. the
attack on the unarmed Bonus Expeditionary Force - 43,000 marchers,
including 17,000 World War I veterans and their families - in
Washington DC on 28 July 1932 by US army infantry and cavalry
supported by six tanks, and commanded by Army Chief of Staff General
Douglas MacArthur; Major, later President, Dwight D. Eisenhower was
his liaison with Washington police, and Major George Patton led the
cavalry.)<br>
___________<br>
<br>
*British Foreign Minister who eventually killed himself by cutting
his throat with a letter-opener.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/27/10 12:07 AM, Brussel Morton K. wrote:<br>
<span style="white-space: pre;">> Joy and others,<br>
> <br>
> I've been pondering the nature of the peace-discuss list for
some <br>
> time, and am sympathetic to your annoyance and exasperation
with its <br>
> current incarnation. Since it is an open forum, however, I'm
not<br>
> sure anything can or should be done about it. Relatively few<br>
> contribute routinely to the discussion there. I have been
among them,<br>
> but aside from articles I run across that appear pertinent to
AWARE's<br>
> supposed mission—anti-war and anti-racism—, I usually only
respond to<br>
> opinions or commentary I find fault with.<br>
> <br>
> What irritates me in some of the discussion is a grossly
repetitious <br>
> insistence on certain themes, themes to which I do not
necessarily <br>
> disagree, but whose presentation I think are not quite
honest, hence <br>
> destructive. Thus, Obama is forever "murdering" people around
the <br>
> world rather than that his (administration's) policies indeed
lead<br>
> to the slaughter of innocents. For some, it seems any slight<br>
> deviation from their own beliefs are to be condemned. There
is scant<br>
> nuance, to an extent often bordering on intellectual
dishonesty<br>
> and/or distortion. Distinctions are avoided. "Liberals", the
"left", <br>
> Democrats, and even "progressives"—defined rather arbitrarily
<br>
> according to the points to be made—are too often cast as
stooges or <br>
> dupes for the power elites (not insufficiently
anti-capitalist, <br>
> anti-war, and/or anti-imperialist). "Abortion is murder" is
another <br>
> example. Religious doctrine/beliefs (God) also sometimes get
thrown <br>
> in where, from my point of view, they have no relevance to
the <br>
> mission of AWARE. Not infrequently, when a discussion occurs,
and <br>
> questions are raised, the questions are not answered honestly
or <br>
> directly, but rather a bait-and-switch rhetorical technique
ensues.<br>
> <br>
> But to repeat, perhaps the most irritating aspect that arises
for me <br>
> is the obsessional repetition of what one wants to have
others <br>
> believe. Furthermore, I find that the discussions on the list
are<br>
> not broadly balanced; the variety of opinions on the list
seems to me<br>
> to be too narrow.<br>
> <br>
> Presentations found at ZNet is much better.<br>
> <br>
> One obvious solution to all this is to simply remove oneself
from<br>
> the list. But there are useful things to be aware of that are<br>
> exposed there. It's akin to subscribing and hence being led
to read<br>
> the editorial page of the News-Gazette or the NYT, not to
mention<br>
> the choice of articles presented. I'm often tempted to cease
my <br>
> subscriptions, but I haven't followed through.<br>
> <br>
> My 2˘.<br>
> <br>
> --mkb<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On Oct 23, 2010, at 4:03 PM, David Green wrote:<br>
> <br>
>> Joy,<br>
>> <br>
>> You took this off-list in your response to me. I am of
course <br>
>> violating your privacy by putting it back on-list. But
that's how<br>
>> I feel about it.<br>
>> <br>
>> I disagree with your comments about the list. My
disagreements are <br>
>> so fundamental and so obvious, that all I can so is
express my <br>
>> consternation and amazement at your assertions.<br>
>> <br>
>> The point of this list is for individuals to inform each
other,<br>
>> and discuss/debate important issues. For the most part,
I've<br>
>> always liked it just fine. When I haven't, I've done
other things.<br>
>> <br>
>> If you have a response, please keep it on-list. Neither
of our <br>
>> comments to each other have any meaning except in the
context of <br>
>> this list and its readers.<br>
>> <br>
>> David<br>
>> <br>
>> ------------------------- *From:* "<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net">jgeo61@comcast.net</a> <br>
>> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net"><mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net></a>" <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net">jgeo61@comcast.net</a>
<br>
>> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net"><mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net></a>> *To:* David Green <br>
>> <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com"><mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com></a>> *Sent:*<br>
>> Sat, October 23, 2010 1:19:22 PM *Subject:* Re:
[Peace-discuss]<br>
>> [Peace] This list is for brief announcements only<br>
>> <br>
>> David,<br>
>> <br>
>> My concerns stem from the creation of a large list serve
for the <br>
>> benefit of many now being taken over by less than a
handful of <br>
>> people. What efforts are we doing to encourage new people
to<br>
>> start their own discussion? This group has simply created
a<br>
>> platform for these folks to banter back and forth with
each other.<br>
>> I resent being given the option to leave the list and I
am not sure<br>
>> why I should need to. Is it because it is out of control?
Is it<br>
>> because we should just throw up our hands and say "boys
will be<br>
>> boys"? I know it cannot be because this is a free flowing
exchange<br>
>> of opinions..it just isn't. We cannot hide the large
purple<br>
>> elephant in the room here.<br>
>> <br>
>> I agree that is issue has reared its ugly head on more
than one <br>
>> occasion and I think it is time to meet to discuss fully
what is <br>
>> the purpose and intent of this list serve.<br>
>> <br>
>> Joy ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Green" <br>
>> <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com"><mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com></a>> To: <br>
>> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net">jgeo61@comcast.net</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net"><mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net></a> Cc:
"Peace Discuss" <br>
>> <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a> <br>
>> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"><mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net></a>> Sent:
Saturday, October <br>
>> 23, 2010 12:44:28 PM Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace]
This<br>
>> list is for brief announcements only<br>
>> <br>
>> Joy, that's just ridiculous, and I resent it. This space
is for <br>
>> those who have substantive comments, and for others to <br>
>> substantively disagree with those comments. You're
offended by the <br>
>> content of some comments. You're welcome to say why
that's the <br>
>> case. Please don't try to silence those that you don't
agree with. <br>
>> If you're not interested in what some people have to say,
then you <br>
>> can resign from the list, or only selectively open the
messages <br>
>> from those that you tend to agree with.<br>
>> <br>
>> David Green<br>
>> <br>
>> ------------------------- **From:** "<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net">jgeo61@comcast.net</a> <br>
>> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net"><mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net></a>" <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net">jgeo61@comcast.net</a>
<br>
>> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net"><mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net></a>> *To:* E. Wayne
Johnson <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ewj@pigs.ag">ewj@pigs.ag</a> <br>
>> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ewj@pigs.ag"><mailto:ewj@pigs.ag></a>> *Cc:* Peace-discuss <br>
>> <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net">peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net"><mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net></a>>; <br>
>> Brian Dolinar <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:briandolinar@gmail.com">briandolinar@gmail.com</a> <br>
>> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:briandolinar@gmail.com"><mailto:briandolinar@gmail.com></a>> *Sent:* Sat,
October 23, 2010 <br>
>> 9:51:10 AM *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] This
list is for <br>
>> brief announcements only<br>
>> <br>
>> Wayne,<br>
>> <br>
>> All you want is to have a captured audience to listen to
your <br>
>> pontifications. Thanks to you this medium has turned into
a <br>
>> private chat room instead of the public space that it was
created <br>
>> for. It is also evident that you do not read other e
mails as<br>
>> they are asking you, more gently that I intend to, to
change your<br>
>> venue. Wayne, meet somewhere else, in person and chat to
your<br>
>> hearts content; I could care less. I am tired of being
held<br>
>> captive by your tiny group of wannabees and I will
express my views<br>
>> that you need to be contained.<br>
>> <br>
>> Joy<br>
>> <br>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "E. Wayne Johnson"
<<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ewj@pigs.ag">ewj@pigs.ag</a> <br>
>> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ewj@pigs.ag"><mailto:ewj@pigs.ag></a>> To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net">jgeo61@comcast.net</a> <br>
>> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net"><mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net></a> Cc: "C. G. Estabrook" <br>
>> <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu">galliher@illinois.edu</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu"><mailto:galliher@illinois.edu></a>>, <br>
>> "Peace-discuss" <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net">peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a> <br>
>> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net"><mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net></a>>, "Brian
Dolinar" <br>
>> <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:briandolinar@gmail.com">briandolinar@gmail.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:briandolinar@gmail.com"><mailto:briandolinar@gmail.com></a>> Sent: <br>
>> Friday, October 22, 2010 5:21:13 PM Subject: Re:
[Peace-discuss] <br>
>> [Peace] This list is for brief announcements only<br>
>> <br>
>> Joy Since the hindrance of free speech and discourse are
important <br>
>> part of the US government's strategy to stifle opposition
to the <br>
>> war, I am surprised that you are so interested in control
on this <br>
>> list.<br>
>> <br>
>> "I am expected to receive this trash in my inbox on a
daily basis?"<br>
>> /Poor Baby./<br>
>> <br>
>> We need more hooliganism and fewer schoolmarm-ism if we
are to<br>
>> ever overthrow the war-mongering.<br>
>> <br>
>> Wayne<br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> On 10/23/2010 4:53 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net">jgeo61@comcast.net</a> wrote:<br>
>> <br>
>> What is this all about? I am expected to receive this
trash in my <br>
>> inbox on a daily basis? My insight for the day is GET OFF
THIS <br>
>> LISTSERVE!! Take your PRIVATE foul mouthed chats
SOMEWHERE ELSE! I<br>
>> do not want to be an audience member any further to the
lot of you<br>
>> hooligans.<br>
>> <br>
>> JOY GEORGE<br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "C. G. Estabrook" <br>
>> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu"><galliher@illinois.edu></a> To: "Peace-discuss" <br>
>> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net"><peace-discuss@anti-war.net></a> Cc: "Brian Dolinar" <br>
>> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:briandolinar@gmail.com"><briandolinar@gmail.com></a> Sent: Friday, October 22,
2010 2:58:54 PM<br>
>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] This list is for
brief <br>
>> announcements only<br>
>> <br>
>> [Someone writing as "Brian Dolinar, Ph.D." has an
insightful <br>
>> political comment to make; it will undoubtedly add to the
clarity <br>
>> of our joint considerations. Viz., and to wit--]<br>
>> <br>
>> On 10/22/10 8:53 AM, Brian Dolinar wrote:<br>
>>> FUCK OFF!<br>
>>> <br>
>>> BD</span>
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