<html><head><base href="x-msg://3422/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Joy and others,<div><br></div><div>I've been pondering the nature of the peace-discuss list for some time, and am sympathetic to your annoyance and exasperation with its current incarnation. Since it is an open forum, however, I'm not sure anything can or should be done about it. Relatively few contribute routinely to the discussion there. I have been among them, but aside from articles I run across that appear pertinent to AWARE's supposed mission—anti-war and anti-racism—, I usually only respond to opinions or commentary I find fault with. </div><div><br></div><div>What irritates me in some of the discussion is a grossly repetitious insistence on certain themes, themes to which I do not necessarily disagree, but whose presentation I think are not quite honest, hence destructive. Thus, Obama is forever "murdering" people around the world rather than that his (administration's) policies indeed lead to the slaughter of innocents. For some, it seems any slight deviation from their own beliefs are to be condemned. There is scant nuance, to an extent often bordering on intellectual dishonesty and/or distortion. Distinctions are avoided. "Liberals", the "left", Democrats, and even "progressives"—defined rather arbitrarily according to the points to be made—are too often cast as stooges or dupes for the power elites (not insufficiently anti-capitalist, anti-war, and/or anti-imperialist). "Abortion is murder" is another example. Religious doctrine/beliefs (God) also sometimes get thrown in where, from my point of view, they have no relevance to the mission of AWARE. Not infrequently, when a discussion occurs, and questions are raised, the questions are not answered honestly or directly, but rather a bait-and-switch rhetorical technique ensues. </div><div><br></div><div>But to repeat, perhaps the most irritating aspect that arises for me is the obsessional repetition of what one wants to have others believe. Furthermore, I find that the discussions on the list are not broadly balanced; the variety of opinions on the list seems to me to be too narrow. </div><div><br></div><div>Presentations found at ZNet is much better. </div><div><br></div><div>One obvious solution to all this is to simply remove oneself from the list. But there are useful things to be aware of that are exposed there. It's akin to subscribing and hence being led to read the editorial page of the News-Gazette or the NYT, not to mention the choice of articles presented. </div><div>I'm often tempted to cease my subscriptions, but I haven't followed through. </div><div><br></div><div>My 2˘.</div><div><br></div><div>--mkb</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Oct 23, 2010, at 4:03 PM, David Green wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Joy,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">You took this off-list in your response to me. I am of course violating your privacy by putting it back on-list. But that's how I feel about it.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I disagree with your comments about the list. My disagreements are so fundamental and so obvious, that all I can so is express my consternation and amazement at your assertions.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The point of this list is for individuals to inform each other, and discuss/debate important issues. For the most part, I've always liked it just fine. When I haven't, I've done other things.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">If you have a response, please keep it on-list. Neither of our comments to each other have any meaning except in the context of this list and its readers.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">David<br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; "><br><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; "><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">From:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>"<a href="mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net">jgeo61@comcast.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net">jgeo61@comcast.net</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">To:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>David Green <<a href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Sent:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Sat, October 23, 2010 1:19:22 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Subject:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] This list is for brief announcements only<br></font><br><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt; ">David,<br><br>My concerns stem from the creation of a large list serve for the benefit of many now being taken over by less than a handful of people. What efforts are we doing to encourage new people to start their own discussion? This group has simply created a platform for these folks to banter back and forth with each other. I resent being given the option to leave the list and I am not sure why I should need to. Is it because it is out of control? Is it because we should just throw up our hands and say "boys will be boys"? I know it cannot be because this is a free flowing exchange of opinions..it just isn't. We cannot hide the large purple elephant in the room here.<br><br>I agree that is issue has reared its ugly head on more than one occasion and I think it is time to meet to discuss fully what is the purpose and intent of this list serve.<br><br>Joy<br>----- Original Message -----<br>From: "David Green" <<a href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>><br>To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net">jgeo61@comcast.net</a><br>Cc: "Peace Discuss" <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>><br>Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 12:44:28 PM<br>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] This list is for brief announcements only<br><br><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Joy, that's just ridiculous, and I resent it. This space is for those who have substantive comments, and for others to substantively disagree with those comments. You're offended by the content of some comments. You're welcome to say why that's the case. Please don't try to silence those that you don't agree with. If you're not interested in what some people have to say, then you can resign from the list, or only selectively open the messages from those that you tend to agree with.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">David Green<br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; "><br><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; "><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><hr size="1"><b><strong>From:</strong></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>"<a href="mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net">jgeo61@comcast.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net">jgeo61@comcast.net</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">To:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>E. Wayne Johnson <<a href="mailto:ewj@pigs.ag">ewj@pigs.ag</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Cc:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net">peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>>; Brian Dolinar <<a href="mailto:briandolinar@gmail.com">briandolinar@gmail.com</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Sent:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Sat, October 23, 2010 9:51:10 AM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Subject:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] This list is for brief announcements only<br></font><br><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt; ">Wayne,<br><br>All you want is to have a captured audience to listen to your pontifications. Thanks to you this medium has turned into a private chat room instead of the public space that it was created for. It is also evident that you do not read other e mails as they are asking you, more gently that I intend to, to change your venue. Wayne, meet somewhere else, in person and chat to your hearts content; I could care less. I am tired of being held captive by your tiny group of wannabees and I will express my views that you need to be contained.<br><br>Joy <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br>----- Original Message -----<br>From: "E. Wayne Johnson" <<a href="mailto:ewj@pigs.ag">ewj@pigs.ag</a>><br>To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net">jgeo61@comcast.net</a><br>Cc: "C. G. Estabrook" <<a href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu">galliher@illinois.edu</a>>, "Peace-discuss" <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net">peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>>, "Brian Dolinar" <<a href="mailto:briandolinar@gmail.com">briandolinar@gmail.com</a>><br>Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 5:21:13 PM<br>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] This list is for brief announcements only<br><br>Joy<br>Since the hindrance of free speech and discourse are important part<br>of the US government's strategy to stifle opposition to the war, I am<br>surprised that you are so interested in control on this list.<br><br>"I am expected to receive this trash in my inbox on a daily basis?"<br><i>Poor Baby.</i><br><br>We need more hooliganism and fewer schoolmarm-ism if we are to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>ever overthrow the war-mongering.<br><br>Wayne<br><br><br>On 10/23/2010 4:53 AM,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:jgeo61@comcast.net">jgeo61@comcast.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt; ">What is this all about? I am expected to receive this trash in my inbox on a daily basis? My insight for the day is GET OFF THIS LISTSERVE!! Take your PRIVATE foul mouthed chats SOMEWHERE ELSE! I do not want to be an audience member any further to the lot of you hooligans. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br>JOY GEORGE<br><br><br>----- Original Message -----<br>From: "C. G. Estabrook"<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu"><galliher@illinois.edu></a><br>To: "Peace-discuss"<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net"><peace-discuss@anti-war.net></a><br>Cc: "Brian Dolinar"<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:briandolinar@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:briandolinar@gmail.com"><briandolinar@gmail.com></a><br>Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 2:58:54 PM<br>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] This list is for brief announcements only<br><br>[Someone writing as "Brian Dolinar, Ph.D." has an insightful political comment to make;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>it will undoubtedly add to the clarity of out joint considerations. Viz., and to wit--]<br><br>On 10/22/10 8:53 AM, Brian Dolinar wrote:<br><span style="white-space: pre; ">> FUCK OFF!<br><br>> <br><br>> BD<br><br>> <br><br></span><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Peace-discuss mailing list<br><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a><br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a><br></div><pre><hr size="4" width="90%">
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