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[1] I take it your first sentence is a humble confession of your
situation, John. It seems to have no bearing on the point David
raises otherwise.<br>
<br>
[2] Can "escapism, or avoidance behavior" masquerade as
"acknowledg[ing] that [one doesn't] necessarily have a corner on all
truth"?
<div><br>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
On 11/2/10 10:12 PM, John W. wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:AANLkTi=uceqoZepB+Qfgh+n0XoLNPgNpnyuqpAy1jRL5@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:04 PM, C. G.
Estabrook <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu">galliher@illinois.edu</a>></span>
wrote:</div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> This is an easy way to
avoid the question of how the truth of things stands.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It's never easy, Carl, to listen deeply to the truth
possessed by other people, particularly when you're so
profoundly convinced of your own moral correctness.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">There's of course a good
reason to do that: if the truth can be avoided, so can any
obligation to do anything in particular.</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I sincerely hope that you're too intelligent to fall into
the trap of conflating escapism, or avoidance behavior, with
the humility required to acknowledge that you don't
necessarily have a corner on all truth.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<div>
<div class="h5">On 11/2/10 9:43 PM, John W. wrote: </div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div class="h5">Those of us who feel that we are blessed
with a certain moral superiority or purity run the
risk, it seems to me, of falling into the trap
illustrated below. To wit:
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1) We are by definition the Teachers, Custodians
of The Facts;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>2) Those who disagree with our own analysis of
The Facts are, by definition, incapable of
"teachable moments"; and </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>3) We drive away even those who are inclined to
agree with us 90% of the time.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have long felt that there is much wisdom to be
gleaned from the parable of the five blind men and
the elephant.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>John Wason</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote"> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at
6:37 PM, David Green <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>></span>
wrote:</div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt
0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204,
204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new
york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div>Jennifer, it depends what you mean by
"teachable moment." Before you can have
"teachable moments," you have to stop
having "dialogue" with those racists and
oppressors who aren't the least bit
interested in being taught anything. The
"teachable moment" ought to arise from the
moral clarity of the situation, which is
related to a respect for the facts. But
you can't do that when you're muddying the
waters, such as you have done by lending
credence to the notion that Israel is
motivated by "security." So far, lots of
"teachable moments" have resulted from the
clarity that has been created by,
recently, the attack on Lebanon in 2006,
Gaza in 2008-09, and the flotilla earlier
this year. I'm hoping that it won't take
more massive criminality to provide more
"teachable moments." But if that is to be
the case, it will have to take some
honesty about who is interested in
listening, and who is not, and some
proactive strategies about having a
movement, rather than just paying lip
service and having outside speakers. By
the way, I don't have much respect for
anyone who is "turned off" by being told
the truth, whether about Israel or its
supporters.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>DG<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new
york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br>
<div style="font-family: times new
roman,new york,times,serif; font-size:
12pt;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2">
<hr size="1">
<div> <b><span style="font-weight:
bold;">From:</span></b> Jenifer
Cartwright <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jencart13@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">jencart13@yahoo.com</a>><br>
</div>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
John W. <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jbw292002@gmail.com"
target="_blank">jbw292002@gmail.com</a>>;
David Green <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b>
Peace Discuss <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
target="_blank">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Tue, November 2, 2010 5:15:04 PM
<div>
<div><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:
bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[Peace-discuss] Letter submitted
to DI<br>
</div>
</div>
</font>
<div>
<div><br>
<table border="0" cellpadding="0"
cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign="top">David,
<div>If you were looking for
a teachable moment by
writing and sending that
letter to the DI, but
instead you've succeeded
in turning off even those
who are [or were] in
agreement w/ you about the
larger Israeli-Palestinian
issues, what was the
point?? </div>
<div> --Jenifer<br>
<br>
--- On <b>Tue, 11/2/10,
David Green <i><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com" target="_blank">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>></i></b>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
style="border-left: 2px
solid rgb(16, 16, 255);
padding-left: 5px;
margin-left: 5px;"><br>
From: David Green <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com" target="_blank">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re:
[Peace-discuss] Letter
submitted to DI<br>
To: "John W." <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jbw292002@gmail.com" target="_blank">jbw292002@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: "Peace Discuss" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>><br>
Date: Tuesday, November
2, 2010, 3:06 PM<br>
<br>
<div>
<div
style="font-family:
times new roman,new
york,times,serif;
font-size: 12pt;">
<div>John, I
referred to
dialogue among
those interested
in learning
something from
each other.<br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:
times new
roman,new
york,times,serif;
font-size: 12pt;"><br>
<div
style="font-family:
times new
roman,new
york,times,serif;
font-size:
12pt;"><font
face="Tahoma"
size="2">
<hr size="1">
<b><span
style="font-weight:
bold;">From:</span></b>
John W. <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jbw292002@gmail.com" target="_blank">jbw292002@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:
bold;">To:</span></b>
David Green
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com" target="_blank">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>><br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:
bold;">Cc:</span></b>
Jenifer
Cartwright
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jencart13@yahoo.com" target="_blank">jencart13@yahoo.com</a>>;
Peace Discuss
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>><br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:
bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Tue, November
2, 2010
2:12:11 PM<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:
bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re:
[Peace-discuss]
Letter
submitted to
DI<br>
</font><br>
<br>
<div>On Tue, Nov
2, 2010 at
2:07 PM, David
Green <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>></span>
wrote:</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote
style="border-left:
1px solid
rgb(204, 204,
204); margin:
0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;
padding-left:
1ex;">
<div>
<div
style="font-family:
times new
roman,new
york,times,serif;
font-size:
12pt;">
<div>The moral
distinctions
between the
roles
of Israelis
and
Palestinians
are no less
clear than
those between
Nazis and
Jews. The
results of
those
distinctions
have been
qualitatively
different:
expulsion,
ethnic
cleansing,
occupation,
confinement,
etc.,
accompanied by
lots of
murder and
attacks on
other
countries
(Lebanon,
Egypt), with
deaths into
the tens of
thousands,
probably into
the hundreds
of thousands
at this point.
And the goals
of Zionism are
rooted in
claims to
racial
superiority. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Nothing
of what Israel
does has
anything to do
with
"containment
for security
reasons." Any
more than what
Germany did in
the Warsaw
Ghetto. That's
the drum that
the Zionist
students were
beating last
evening. They
shouldn't be
allowed to get
away with
it--any more
than we would
allow for any
other kind of
hate, relating
to Muslims or
gays or any
other group,
based on
appeals to
fear. Racism
is racism,
hate is hate,
whether or not
it is couched
in assertions
of hatred
attributed to
the hated
"other."</div>
<div> </div>
<div>What's to
be gained by
"dialogue"?</div>
<div> </div>
<font
color="#888888">
<div>DG<br>
</div>
</font></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If
nothing is to
be gained by
"dialogue",
David, then
why do you
write your
letters? Why
did you
earlier
suggest
"teach-ins"?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote
style="border-left:
1px solid
rgb(204, 204,
204); margin:
0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;
padding-left:
1ex;">
<div>
<div
style="font-family:
times new
roman,new
york,times,serif;
font-size:
12pt;"><font
color="#888888">
</font>
<div
style="font-family:
times new
roman,new
york,times,serif;
font-size:
12pt;">
<div
style="font-family:
times new
roman,new
york,times,serif;
font-size:
12pt;">
<div><font
face="Tahoma"
size="2"><b><span
style="font-weight:
bold;">From:</span></b>
Jenifer
Cartwright
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">jencart13@yahoo.com</a>><br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:
bold;">To:</span></b>
Peace Discuss
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>>;
ASA <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">asa.uiuc@gmail.com</a>>;
Irfan Ahmad
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">isahmad@uiuc.edu</a>>;
Lina ASA <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow">lelbesh2@uiuc.edu</a>>; Sadia
Bekal <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">sbekal@uiuc.edu</a>>;
CAIR <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">hrahman2@uiuc.edu</a>>;
CAN <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">can.uiuc@gmail.com</a>>;
ISO <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">iso.champaign@gmail.com</a>>;
Aisha Sobh
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">asobh@uiuc.edu</a>>;
STOP <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">trevaellison@gmail.com</a>>;
David Green
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>><br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:
bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Tue, November
2, 2010
1:56:42 PM<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:
bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re:
[Peace-discuss]
Letter
submitted to
DI<br>
</font></div>
<div>
<div><br>
<table
border="0"
cellpadding="0"
cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td
valign="top">David
G,
<div>Yikes!
Yes, there is
heightened
emotion and
ramped-up
rhetoric on
both sides --
the occupied
population --
"insurrectionists"
-- are the
good guys --
heroes! --
only in
reference to
1776 when the
colonists were
the former,
opposing
British
rule... but
PLEASE
acknowledge
that there is
a HUGE HUGE
HUGE
difference
betw
containment
out of
fear/for
security
reasons (how
ever
ill-conceived
the intent and
cruel the
result), and
extermination
of a
population to
destroy a
culture and
preserve a
"master race."
You need to
re-visit that
accusation and
reword yr
letter.</div>
<div> --Jenifer
<br>
<br>
--- On <b>Tue,
11/2/10, David
Green <i><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>></i></b>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
style="border-left:
2px solid
rgb(16, 16,
255);
padding-left:
5px;
margin-left:
5px;"><br>
From: David
Green <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject:
[Peace-discuss]
Letter
submitted to
DI<br>
To: "Peace
Discuss" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>>,
"ASA" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">asa.uiuc@gmail.com</a>>,
"Irfan Ahmad"
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">isahmad@uiuc.edu</a>>,
"Lina ASA"
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">lelbesh2@uiuc.edu</a>>,
"ASA" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">asa.uiuc@gmail.com</a>>,
"Sadia Bekal"
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">sbekal@uiuc.edu</a>>,
"CAIR" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow">hrahman2@uiuc.edu</a>>, "CAN"
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">can.uiuc@gmail.com</a>>,
"ISO" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">iso.champaign@gmail.com</a>>,
"Aisha Sobh"
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">asobh@uiuc.edu</a>>,
"STOP" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow">trevaellison@gmail.com</a>><br>
Date: Tuesday,
November 2,
2010, 12:27 PM<br>
<br>
<div>
<div
style="font-family:
times new
roman,new
york,times,serif;
color: rgb(0,
0, 0);
font-size:
12pt;">
<div>
<div>
<p
style="margin:
0in 0in 10pt;"><font
face="Calibri">On
November 1st,
Students for
Justice in
Palestine
hosted a
courageous
young Israeli
woman at Noyes
Lab who has
refused to
serve in the
Israeli
occupying
army. It was
reported at
the conclusion
of the event
that SJP
received
threats that
attempted to
undermine the
event. I would
hope that
these threats
would be
specified,
publicized by
the DI,
investigated
by University
Police, and
addressed by
University
administration.</font></p>
<p
style="margin:
0in 0in 10pt;"><font
face="Calibri"> </font></p>
<p
style="margin:
0in 0in 10pt;"><font
face="Calibri">The
event was
well-attended,
including a
couple of
dozen Zionist
students.
Their
questions were
straight out
of what is
called the
"hasbara"
(Zionist
propaganda)
playbook.
These students
asserted that
Palestinian
hatred for
Israel is so
stubborn that
nothing that
Israel does
could possibly
do would do
anything but
endanger the
safety of
Israelis.
These
assertions
were
competently
addressed by
the speakers,
including a
Palestinian
student who
spoke during
the question
period. The
Israeli
speaker
correctly
asserted that
the Israeli
government is
the worst
terrorist in
the Middle
East; but
actually, it
would be more
correct to say
that the U.S.
government is
the worst
terrorist in
the region.</font></p>
<p
style="margin:
0in 0in 10pt;"><font
face="Calibri"> </font></p>
<p
style="margin:
0in 0in 10pt;"><font
face="Calibri">For
the record,
it's important
to note that
students who
support and
rationalize
Israeli
atrocities are
no different
than German
youth in the
1930s who
supported the
Nazi Party.
Yes, they are
young. Yes,
they are
brainwashed.
But given the
information
available,
these are not
valid excuses.
These ugly and
hateful
students show
us that in
2010, on the
"diverse" UI
campus, it is
still
acceptable to
support
perpetrators
and blame
victims,
however
obvious that
distinction
is, with all
of the racism
that that such
willful
ignorance
implies. </font></p>
<p
style="margin:
0in 0in 10pt;"><font
face="Calibri"> </font></p>
<p
style="margin:
0in 0in 10pt;"><font
face="Calibri">This
occurs partly
because
University
administration
tacitly
equivocates
between social
justice and
political evil
on issues of
war and peace
in the Middle
East. At that
level, we all
ought to be
ashamed of
ourselves.</font></p>
<p
style="margin:
0in 0in 10pt;"><font
face="Calibri"> </font></p>
<p
style="margin:
0in 0in 10pt;"><font
face="Calibri">David
Green</font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</td>
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</tbody>
</table>
</div>
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</blockquote>
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</div>
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</blockquote>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
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</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
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<pre><fieldset></fieldset>
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