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This is an easy way to avoid the question of how the truth of things
stands.<br>
<br>
There's of course a good reason to do that: if the truth can be
avoided, so can any obligation to do anything in particular.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 11/2/10 9:43 PM, John W. wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:AANLkTinCfz+yb-bzvNsMib6cBYp5MBAE_3CzuNootFpw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">Those of us who feel that we are blessed with a
certain moral superiority or purity run the risk, it seems to me,
of falling into the trap illustrated below. To wit:
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1) We are by definition the Teachers, Custodians of The
Facts;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>2) Those who disagree with our own analysis of The Facts
are, by definition, incapable of "teachable moments"; and </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>3) We drive away even those who are inclined to agree with
us 90% of the time.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have long felt that there is much wisdom to be gleaned from
the parable of the five blind men and the elephant.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>John Wason</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 6:37 PM, David Green <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>></span>
wrote:</div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new
york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div>Jennifer, it depends what you mean by "teachable
moment." Before you can have "teachable moments," you
have to stop having "dialogue" with those racists and
oppressors who aren't the least bit interested in
being taught anything. The "teachable moment" ought to
arise from the moral clarity of the situation, which
is related to a respect for the facts. But you can't
do that when you're muddying the waters, such as you
have done by lending credence to the notion that
Israel is motivated by "security." So far, lots of
"teachable moments" have resulted from the clarity
that has been created by, recently, the attack on
Lebanon in 2006, Gaza in 2008-09, and the flotilla
earlier this year. I'm hoping that it won't take more
massive criminality to provide more "teachable
moments." But if that is to be the case, it will have
to take some honesty about who is interested in
listening, and who is not, and some proactive
strategies about having a movement, rather than just
paying lip service and having outside speakers. By the
way, I don't have much respect for anyone who is
"turned off" by being told the truth, whether about
Israel or its supporters.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>DG<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new
york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new
york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font
face="Tahoma" size="2">
<hr size="1">
<div class="im">
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
Jenifer Cartwright <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jencart13@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">jencart13@yahoo.com</a>><br>
</div>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
John W. <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jbw292002@gmail.com"
target="_blank">jbw292002@gmail.com</a>>;
David Green <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b>
Peace Discuss <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
target="_blank">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Tue, November 2, 2010 5:15:04 PM
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI<br>
</div>
</div>
</font>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<table border="0" cellpadding="0"
cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign="top">David,
<div>If you were looking for a teachable
moment by writing and sending that
letter to the DI, but instead you've
succeeded in turning off even those
who are [or were] in agreement w/ you
about the larger Israeli-Palestinian
issues, what was the point?? </div>
<div> --Jenifer<br>
<br>
--- On <b>Tue, 11/2/10, David Green <i><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>></i></b>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px
solid rgb(16, 16, 255);
padding-left: 5px; margin-left:
5px;"><br>
From: David Green <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter
submitted to DI<br>
To: "John W." <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jbw292002@gmail.com"
target="_blank">jbw292002@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: "Peace Discuss" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
target="_blank">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>><br>
Date: Tuesday, November 2, 2010,
3:06 PM<br>
<br>
<div>
<div style="font-family: times new
roman,new york,times,serif;
font-size: 12pt;">
<div>John, I referred to
dialogue among those
interested in learning
something from each other.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: times
new roman,new
york,times,serif; font-size:
12pt;"><br>
<div style="font-family: times
new roman,new
york,times,serif; font-size:
12pt;"><font face="Tahoma"
size="2">
<hr size="1">
<b><span
style="font-weight:
bold;">From:</span></b>
John W. <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jbw292002@gmail.com"
target="_blank">jbw292002@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:
bold;">To:</span></b>
David Green <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>><br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:
bold;">Cc:</span></b>
Jenifer Cartwright <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jencart13@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">jencart13@yahoo.com</a>>;
Peace Discuss <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
target="_blank">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>><br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:
bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Tue, November 2, 2010
2:12:11 PM<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:
bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter
submitted to DI<br>
</font><br>
<br>
<div>On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at
2:07 PM, David Green <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>></span>
wrote:</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote
style="border-left: 1px
solid rgb(204, 204,
204); margin: 0px 0px
0px 0.8ex; padding-left:
1ex;">
<div>
<div
style="font-family:
times new roman,new
york,times,serif;
font-size: 12pt;">
<div>The moral
distinctions
between the roles
of Israelis and
Palestinians are
no less clear than
those between
Nazis and Jews.
The results of
those distinctions
have been
qualitatively
different:
expulsion, ethnic
cleansing,
occupation,
confinement, etc.,
accompanied by
lots of murder
and attacks on
other countries
(Lebanon, Egypt),
with deaths into
the tens of
thousands,
probably into the
hundreds of
thousands at this
point. And the
goals of Zionism
are rooted in
claims to racial
superiority. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Nothing of what
Israel does has
anything to do
with "containment
for security
reasons." Any more
than what Germany
did in the Warsaw
Ghetto. That's the
drum that the
Zionist students
were beating last
evening. They
shouldn't be
allowed to get
away with it--any
more than we would
allow for any
other kind of
hate, relating to
Muslims or gays or
any other group,
based on appeals
to fear. Racism is
racism, hate is
hate, whether or
not it is couched
in assertions of
hatred attributed
to the hated
"other."</div>
<div> </div>
<div>What's to be
gained by
"dialogue"?</div>
<div> </div>
<font
color="#888888">
<div>DG<br>
</div>
</font></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If nothing is to be
gained by "dialogue",
David, then why do you
write your letters? Why
did you earlier suggest
"teach-ins"?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote
style="border-left: 1px
solid rgb(204, 204,
204); margin: 0px 0px
0px 0.8ex; padding-left:
1ex;">
<div>
<div
style="font-family:
times new roman,new
york,times,serif;
font-size: 12pt;"><font
color="#888888">
</font>
<div
style="font-family:
times new
roman,new
york,times,serif;
font-size: 12pt;">
<div
style="font-family:
times new
roman,new
york,times,serif;
font-size:
12pt;">
<div><font
face="Tahoma"
size="2"><b><span
style="font-weight:
bold;">From:</span></b>
Jenifer
Cartwright
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">jencart13@yahoo.com</a>><br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:
bold;">To:</span></b>
Peace Discuss
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>>;
ASA <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">asa.uiuc@gmail.com</a>>;
Irfan Ahmad
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">isahmad@uiuc.edu</a>>;
Lina ASA <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow">lelbesh2@uiuc.edu</a>>; Sadia
Bekal <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">sbekal@uiuc.edu</a>>;
CAIR <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">hrahman2@uiuc.edu</a>>;
CAN <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">can.uiuc@gmail.com</a>>;
ISO <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">iso.champaign@gmail.com</a>>;
Aisha Sobh
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">asobh@uiuc.edu</a>>;
STOP <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">trevaellison@gmail.com</a>>;
David Green
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>><br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:
bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Tue, November
2, 2010
1:56:42 PM<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:
bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re:
[Peace-discuss]
Letter
submitted to
DI<br>
</font></div>
<div>
<div><br>
<table
border="0"
cellpadding="0"
cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td
valign="top">David
G,
<div>Yikes!
Yes, there is
heightened
emotion and
ramped-up
rhetoric on
both sides --
the occupied
population --
"insurrectionists"
-- are the
good guys --
heroes! --
only in
reference to
1776 when the
colonists were
the former,
opposing
British
rule... but
PLEASE
acknowledge
that there is
a HUGE HUGE
HUGE
difference
betw
containment
out of
fear/for
security
reasons (how
ever
ill-conceived
the intent and
cruel the
result), and
extermination
of a
population to
destroy a
culture and
preserve a
"master race."
You need to
re-visit that
accusation and
reword yr
letter.</div>
<div> --Jenifer
<br>
<br>
--- On <b>Tue,
11/2/10, David
Green <i><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>></i></b>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
style="border-left:
2px solid
rgb(16, 16,
255);
padding-left:
5px;
margin-left:
5px;"><br>
From: David
Green <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject:
[Peace-discuss]
Letter
submitted to
DI<br>
To: "Peace
Discuss" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>>,
"ASA" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">asa.uiuc@gmail.com</a>>,
"Irfan Ahmad"
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">isahmad@uiuc.edu</a>>,
"Lina ASA"
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">lelbesh2@uiuc.edu</a>>,
"ASA" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">asa.uiuc@gmail.com</a>>,
"Sadia Bekal"
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">sbekal@uiuc.edu</a>>,
"CAIR" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow">hrahman2@uiuc.edu</a>>, "CAN"
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">can.uiuc@gmail.com</a>>,
"ISO" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">iso.champaign@gmail.com</a>>,
"Aisha Sobh"
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">asobh@uiuc.edu</a>>,
"STOP" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow">trevaellison@gmail.com</a>><br>
Date: Tuesday,
November 2,
2010, 12:27 PM<br>
<br>
<div>
<div
style="font-family:
times new
roman,new
york,times,serif;
color: rgb(0,
0, 0);
font-size:
12pt;">
<div>
<div>
<p
style="margin:
0in 0in 10pt;"><font
face="Calibri">On
November 1st,
Students for
Justice in
Palestine
hosted a
courageous
young Israeli
woman at Noyes
Lab who has
refused to
serve in the
Israeli
occupying
army. It was
reported at
the conclusion
of the event
that SJP
received
threats that
attempted to
undermine the
event. I would
hope that
these threats
would be
specified,
publicized by
the DI,
investigated
by University
Police, and
addressed by
University
administration.</font></p>
<p
style="margin:
0in 0in 10pt;"><font
face="Calibri"> </font></p>
<p
style="margin:
0in 0in 10pt;"><font
face="Calibri">The
event was
well-attended,
including a
couple of
dozen Zionist
students.
Their
questions were
straight out
of what is
called the
"hasbara"
(Zionist
propaganda)
playbook.
These students
asserted that
Palestinian
hatred for
Israel is so
stubborn that
nothing that
Israel does
could possibly
do would do
anything but
endanger the
safety of
Israelis.
These
assertions
were
competently
addressed by
the speakers,
including a
Palestinian
student who
spoke during
the question
period. The
Israeli
speaker
correctly
asserted that
the Israeli
government is
the worst
terrorist in
the Middle
East; but
actually, it
would be more
correct to say
that the U.S.
government is
the worst
terrorist in
the region.</font></p>
<p
style="margin:
0in 0in 10pt;"><font
face="Calibri"> </font></p>
<p
style="margin:
0in 0in 10pt;"><font
face="Calibri">For
the record,
it's important
to note that
students who
support and
rationalize
Israeli
atrocities are
no different
than German
youth in the
1930s who
supported the
Nazi Party.
Yes, they are
young. Yes,
they are
brainwashed.
But given the
information
available,
these are not
valid excuses.
These ugly and
hateful
students show
us that in
2010, on the
"diverse" UI
campus, it is
still
acceptable to
support
perpetrators
and blame
victims,
however
obvious that
distinction
is, with all
of the racism
that that such
willful
ignorance
implies. </font></p>
<p
style="margin:
0in 0in 10pt;"><font
face="Calibri"> </font></p>
<p
style="margin:
0in 0in 10pt;"><font
face="Calibri">This
occurs partly
because
University
administration
tacitly
equivocates
between social
justice and
political evil
on issues of
war and peace
in the Middle
East. At that
level, we all
ought to be
ashamed of
ourselves.</font></p>
<p
style="margin:
0in 0in 10pt;"><font
face="Calibri"> </font></p>
<p
style="margin:
0in 0in 10pt;"><font
face="Calibri">David
Green</font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<pre wrap="">
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</pre>
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