<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><DIV>Jenifer,</DIV>
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<DIV>The point is exactly that we <STRONG>don't</STRONG> have the "moral high ground," that we have to take <STRONG>actions</STRONG> to achieve it, primarily relating to our <STRONG>own</STRONG> government's policies. I'm not asking you to take the "moral high ground" in relation to another country, as if we have to establish some kind of essential, fundamental innocence in order to be permitted to legitimately criticize others. That's just childish. We don't need to proclaim ourselves morally superior on the basis of our history, which clearly is impossible. I'm asking us to take the "moral high ground" in relation to identifying, naming, and acting in relation to U.S. foreign policy at the present time, for which we are responsible.</DIV>
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<DIV>Jenifer, you're grossly misunderstanding the problem (not Israel, rather the U.S.), and then using that as a way to avoid challenging either.</DIV>
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<DIV>The "moral high ground" is for those who recognize genocide when they see it, most of all when their country is responsible for it (Native Americans, Philippines, East Timor, Guatemala, Iraq, Vietnam, etc.), and therefore want to do something about it that is relevant to the current situation for which all of us are responsible. The U.S. is responsible and accountable for Israel's ongoing <STRONG>genocide</STRONG> against the Palestinian people, especially those in Gaza who are being systematically malnourished as children. So what does that make us if we don't try to stop it--say, in comparison to Germans in the 1930s and 40s? How systematic does an occupation and its consequences have to become before we (1) recognize it as a genocide and (2) do something to stop it?</DIV>
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<DIV>If you're not comfortable saying that Israelis are behaving like Nazis, perhaps you'd be more comfortable saying that Americans are behaving like Nazis. Or you tell me, what is your personal favorite label for those who silently collaborate with political evil?</DIV>
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<DIV>DG<BR></DIV>
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<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13@yahoo.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> David Green <davegreen84@yahoo.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Peace Discuss <peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wed, November 3, 2010 2:46:02 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI<BR></FONT><BR>
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<TD vAlign=top>Israel has a lot to answer for, past and present, no argument there. But it's hard for me to take the moral high ground when the US has- and continues to do the same. Their/our country's sins are mounting for sure, but we're not looking at Auschwitz and systematic extermination of 6m. I would suggest rethinking the issue as well as rephrasing yr tho'ts.
<DIV> --Jenifer (still only one "n")<BR><BR>--- On <B>Wed, 11/3/10, David Green <I><davegreen84@yahoo.com></I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: David Green <davegreen84@yahoo.com><BR>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI<BR>To: "Jenifer Cartwright" <jencart13@yahoo.com><BR>Cc: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net><BR>Date: Wednesday, November 3, 2010, 8:50 AM<BR><BR>
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<DIV>Jennifer,</DIV>
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<DIV>From 1947-1949, the pre-state and state of Israel forcefully and planfully expelled over 700,000 Palestinians from their homes; 300,000 were expelled prior to the "invasion of 5 Arab armies" after May 1948. These things are well-documented by now; but because it's Jews that perpetrated these crimes and those crimes are in accordance with good "western" American justifications for genocide, they are excused. It was a kind of genocide, that destroyed forever a civilization. We need to connect the genocides, not excuse some while condemning others. More important, we need to condemn the ones that were done in our name. And again, Israeli Jews now see themselves as a kind of "master race," in fact and deed if not in explicit words (although there's plenty of words, too). </DIV>
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<DIV>So I truly don't understand what you're saying. But if it would help not to call people who behave like Nazis Nazis, I'm all for it. How do you think it will help?</DIV>
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<DIV>DG<BR></DIV>
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<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13@yahoo.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> David Green <davegreen84@yahoo.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Peace Discuss <peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tue, November 2, 2010 10:14:38 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI<BR></FONT><BR>
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<TD vAlign=top><FONT class=yiv485698127Apple-style-span size=4 face=arial><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt" class=yiv485698127Apple-style-span>David, </SPAN></FONT>
<DIV><FONT class=yiv485698127Apple-style-span size=4 face=arial><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt" class=yiv485698127Apple-style-span>I did not say Israel's behavior twds the Palestinians was "security" -- that parallel might be more like the US and Native Americans. My full quote [referring to young Israeli Zionists vs Hitler Youth] was:</SPAN></FONT>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; FONT-FAMILY: times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px" class=yiv485698127Apple-style-span>PLEASE acknowledge that there is a HUGE HUGE HUGE difference betw </SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; FONT-FAMILY: times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px" class=yiv485698127Apple-style-span><SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,0)" class=yiv485698127Apple-style-span>containment out of fear/for security reasons (however ill-conceived the intent and cruel the result)</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; FONT-FAMILY: times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px" class=yiv485698127Apple-style-span>, and extermination of a population to destroy a culture and preserve a "master race."</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" class=yiv485698127Apple-style-span><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: small" class=yiv485698127Apple-style-span><FONT class=yiv485698127Apple-style-span face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">I'll also repeat my last sentence -- it's more truthful, and it also speaks to the flies/honey teachable moment thing: </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; FONT-FAMILY: times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px" class=yiv485698127Apple-style-span></SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; FONT-FAMILY: times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px" class=yiv485698127Apple-style-span><SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,0)" class=yiv485698127Apple-style-span>You need to re-visit that accusation and reword yr letter.</SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" class=yiv485698127Apple-style-span><FONT class=yiv485698127Apple-style-span face="'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif"> </FONT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: small" class=yiv485698127Apple-style-span><FONT class=yiv485698127Apple-style-span face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">--Jenifer</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: small" class=yiv485698127Apple-style-span><FONT class=yiv485698127Apple-style-span face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">PS I also corrected yr spelling of my name :-)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT class=yiv485698127Apple-style-span size=4 face=arial><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt" class=yiv485698127Apple-style-span>--- On </SPAN></FONT><B style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Tue, 11/2/10, David Green <I><davegreen84@yahoo.com></I></B><FONT class=yiv485698127Apple-style-span size=4 face=arial><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt" class=yiv485698127Apple-style-span> wrote:</SPAN></FONT><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; FONT-FAMILY: arial; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR>From: David Green <davegreen84@yahoo.com><BR>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI<BR>To: "Jenifer Cartwright" <jencart13@yahoo.com><BR>Cc: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net><BR>Date: Tuesday, November 2, 2010, 6:37 PM<BR><BR>
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<DIV>Jenifer, it depends what you mean by "teachable moment." Before you can have "teachable moments," you have to stop having "dialogue" with those racists and oppressors who aren't the least bit interested in being taught anything. The "teachable moment" ought to arise from the moral clarity of the situation, which is related to a respect for the facts. But you can't do that when you're muddying the waters, such as you have done by lending credence to the notion that Israel is motivated by "security." So far, lots of "teachable moments" have resulted from the clarity that has been created by, recently, the attack on Lebanon in 2006, Gaza in 2008-09, and the flotilla earlier this year. I'm hoping that it won't take more massive criminality to provide more "teachable moments." But if that is to be the case, it will have to take some honesty about who is interested in listening, and who is not, and some proactive strategies about having a movement,
rather than just paying lip service and having outside speakers. By the way, I don't have much respect for anyone who is "turned off" by being told the truth, whether about Israel or its supporters.</DIV>
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<DIV>DG<BR></DIV>
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<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13@yahoo.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> John W. <jbw292002@gmail.com>; David Green <davegreen84@yahoo.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Peace Discuss <peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tue, November 2, 2010 5:15:04 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI<BR></FONT><BR>
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<TD vAlign=top>David,
<DIV>If you were looking for a teachable moment by writing and sending that letter to the DI, but instead you've succeeded in turning off even those who are [or were] in agreement w/ you about the larger Israeli-Palestinian issues, what was the point?? </DIV>
<DIV> --Jenifer<BR><BR>--- On <B>Tue, 11/2/10, David Green <I><davegreen84@yahoo.com></I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: David Green <davegreen84@yahoo.com><BR>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI<BR>To: "John W." <jbw292002@gmail.com><BR>Cc: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net><BR>Date: Tuesday, November 2, 2010, 3:06 PM<BR><BR>
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<DIV>John, I referred to dialogue among those interested in learning something from each other.<BR></DIV>
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<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> John W. <jbw292002@gmail.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> David Green <davegreen84@yahoo.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13@yahoo.com>; Peace Discuss <peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tue, November 2, 2010 2:12:11 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI<BR></FONT><BR><BR>
<DIV class=yiv485698127yiv704292808yiv1143607120gmail_quote>On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 2:07 PM, David Green <SPAN dir=ltr><<A rel=nofollow>davegreen84@yahoo.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:</DIV>
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<DIV>The moral distinctions between the roles of Israelis and Palestinians are no less clear than those between Nazis and Jews. The results of those distinctions have been qualitatively different: expulsion, ethnic cleansing, occupation, confinement, etc., accompanied by lots of murder and attacks on other countries (Lebanon, Egypt), with deaths into the tens of thousands, probably into the hundreds of thousands at this point. And the goals of Zionism are rooted in claims to racial superiority. </DIV>
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<DIV>Nothing of what Israel does has anything to do with "containment for security reasons." Any more than what Germany did in the Warsaw Ghetto. That's the drum that the Zionist students were beating last evening. They shouldn't be allowed to get away with it--any more than we would allow for any other kind of hate, relating to Muslims or gays or any other group, based on appeals to fear. Racism is racism, hate is hate, whether or not it is couched in assertions of hatred attributed to the hated "other."</DIV>
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<DIV>What's to be gained by "dialogue"?</DIV>
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<DIV>DG<BR></DIV></FONT></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
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<DIV>If nothing is to be gained by "dialogue", David, then why do you write your letters? Why did you earlier suggest "teach-ins"?</DIV>
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<DIV class=yiv485698127yiv704292808yiv1143607120hm><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Jenifer Cartwright <<A rel=nofollow>jencart13@yahoo.com</A>><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Peace Discuss <<A rel=nofollow>peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</A>>; ASA <<A rel=nofollow>asa.uiuc@gmail.com</A>>; Irfan Ahmad <<A rel=nofollow>isahmad@uiuc.edu</A>>; Lina ASA <<A rel=nofollow>lelbesh2@uiuc.edu</A>>; Sadia Bekal <<A rel=nofollow>sbekal@uiuc.edu</A>>; CAIR <<A rel=nofollow>hrahman2@uiuc.edu</A>>; CAN <<A rel=nofollow>can.uiuc@gmail.com</A>>; ISO <<A rel=nofollow>iso.champaign@gmail.com</A>>; Aisha Sobh <<A rel=nofollow>asobh@uiuc.edu</A>>; STOP <<A rel=nofollow>trevaellison@gmail.com</A>>; David Green <<A rel=nofollow>davegreen84@yahoo.com</A>><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tue, November 2, 2010 1:56:42
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI<BR></FONT></DIV>
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<TD vAlign=top>David G,
<DIV>Yikes! Yes, there is heightened emotion and ramped-up rhetoric on both sides -- the occupied population -- "insurrectionists" -- are the good guys -- heroes! -- only in reference to 1776 when the colonists were the former, opposing British rule... but PLEASE acknowledge that there is a HUGE HUGE HUGE difference betw containment out of fear/for security reasons (how ever ill-conceived the intent and cruel the result), and extermination of a population to destroy a culture and preserve a "master race." You need to re-visit that accusation and reword yr letter.</DIV>
<DIV> --Jenifer <BR><BR>--- On <B>Tue, 11/2/10, David Green <I><<A rel=nofollow>davegreen84@yahoo.com</A>></I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: David Green <<A rel=nofollow>davegreen84@yahoo.com</A>><BR>Subject: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI<BR>To: "Peace Discuss" <<A rel=nofollow>peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</A>>, "ASA" <<A rel=nofollow>asa.uiuc@gmail.com</A>>, "Irfan Ahmad" <<A rel=nofollow>isahmad@uiuc.edu</A>>, "Lina ASA" <<A rel=nofollow>lelbesh2@uiuc.edu</A>>, "ASA" <<A rel=nofollow>asa.uiuc@gmail.com</A>>, "Sadia Bekal" <<A rel=nofollow>sbekal@uiuc.edu</A>>, "CAIR" <<A rel=nofollow>hrahman2@uiuc.edu</A>>, "CAN" <<A rel=nofollow>can.uiuc@gmail.com</A>>, "ISO" <<A rel=nofollow>iso.champaign@gmail.com</A>>, "Aisha Sobh" <<A rel=nofollow>asobh@uiuc.edu</A>>, "STOP" <<A rel=nofollow>trevaellison@gmail.com</A>><BR>Date: Tuesday, November 2, 2010, 12:27 PM<BR><BR>
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<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><FONT face=Calibri>On November 1st, Students for Justice in Palestine hosted a courageous young Israeli woman at Noyes Lab who has refused to serve in the Israeli occupying army. It was reported at the conclusion of the event that SJP received threats that attempted to undermine the event. I would hope that these threats would be specified, publicized by the DI, investigated by University Police, and addressed by University administration.</FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><FONT face=Calibri> </FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><FONT face=Calibri>The event was well-attended, including a couple of dozen Zionist students. Their questions were straight out of what is called the "hasbara" (Zionist propaganda) playbook. These students asserted that Palestinian hatred for Israel is so stubborn that nothing that Israel does could possibly do would do anything but endanger the safety of Israelis. These assertions were competently addressed by the speakers, including a Palestinian student who spoke during the question period. The Israeli speaker correctly asserted that the Israeli government is the worst terrorist in the Middle East; but actually, it would be more correct to say that the U.S. government is the worst terrorist in the region.</FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><FONT face=Calibri> </FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><FONT face=Calibri>For the record, it's important to note that students who support and rationalize Israeli atrocities are no different than German youth in the 1930s who supported the Nazi Party. Yes, they are young. Yes, they are brainwashed. But given the information available, these are not valid excuses. These ugly and hateful students show us that in 2010, on the "diverse" UI campus, it is still acceptable to support perpetrators and blame victims, however obvious that distinction is, with all of the racism that that such willful ignorance implies. </FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><FONT face=Calibri> </FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><FONT face=Calibri>This occurs partly because University administration tacitly equivocates between social justice and political evil on issues of war and peace in the Middle East. At that level, we all ought to be ashamed of ourselves.</FONT></P>
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<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><FONT face=Calibri>David Green</FONT></P></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR></DIV><BR>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR><BR>
<DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>Peace-discuss mailing list<BR><A rel=nofollow>Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</A><BR><A href="http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</A><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Peace-discuss mailing list<BR><A rel=nofollow>Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</A><BR><A href="http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR></DIV><BR>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR><BR>
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