<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<STYLE type=text/css>DIV {
MARGIN: 0px
}
</STYLE>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.18975"></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>The characteristic of bullying is to pick a fight
over a minor infraction. Many evaluate human life in relativistic
terms. Certainly American lives are made to be much more valuable in
the popular commerce than those of enemies and those who are slaughtered,
butchered, tortured, starved, or worse, by american "principles"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Bullies dont have much concern about the value of
the life that is the object of their bullying. I agree that valuing life,
even the life of non-americans is an important fundamental.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>But if we are going to insist on everyone having
absolute ideologic purity on our pet issues while we at the same time insist on
them overlooking our blind spots and ideologic pecadilloes, we will have trouble
reaching any sort of viable critical mass. I think that people can be
accepted into the anti-war movement even if they disapprove of violence and
bombing of public buildings.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>We have these concerns that we have about
people who belong to or sort of belong to or might get sorted
into various ideologic groups or sets, and it's more convenient for us
to say that "they ain't like us" than it is for us to try to figure out what who
they really are. We tend to forget that people do make mistakes, and even
admit it on rare occasions, particularly if we dont insist on continually
dipping their noses into their "accidents".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>People can change their minds. If every one
who disagrees with us is a Hopeless Case, then War and Extermination and Purging
is the only way to a better world. Some people dont have their ideologies
well established. It seems that most people don't.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Anyway, I think that americans miss black and white
TV, the HowdyDoody Show, and brand new red 1957 Chevrolet Nomads and that
accounts for most of the popularity of the fellow that my grandfather called
"Baldy Eisenhower", and his warning about the militaryindustrialcomplex is an
excuse for lapses into nostalgia.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=davegreen84@yahoo.com href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com">David
Green</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=naiman.uiuc@gmail.com
href="mailto:naiman.uiuc@gmail.com">naiman.uiuc@gmail.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace Discuss</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 21, 2011 4:24
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Peace-discuss] Be careful
what you assume…</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV>Pragmatically, the antiwar movement needs all of the help it can get. The
question is whether one can have a successful movement when some of its allies
are unprincipled in their professed opposition to war, wars, or a war. In
relation to left-libertarian alliances I don't see this as a problem, although
apparently some do, because libertarians are by-and-large principled opponents
of foreign intervention. In relation to Coulter, etc., I do see it as a
problem, since they only admit to the "mistakes" of fighting a particular war,
but essentially support the notion of intervention and militarism, on
"principle." What does the anti-war movement become when it allies itself with
those who are essentially pro-war? Certainly, it loses analytical clarity in
relation to the value of human life. Does the end justify the means?
"Pragmatic" opposition to the Vietnam War contributed to ending the war, but
it perpetuated the foreign policy "principles" that led to subsequent
wars.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>DG<BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 13px"><FONT
size=2 face=Tahoma>
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Robert Naiman
<naiman.uiuc@gmail.com><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Morton K. Brussel
<mkb3@mac.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B>
Peace-discuss List <peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thu, January 20, 2011 11:28:11
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[Peace-discuss] Be careful what you assume…<BR></FONT><BR>I would guess that
most people who cite Eisenhower's speech cite it<BR>not as evidence that
Eisenhower was a wonderful human being, but<BR>rather because the fact that
*Eisenhower* said it gives it greater<BR>weight. So it's almost the opposite.
I suppose that it could be argued<BR>that the citing has some residual effect
of making people feel more<BR>positively about Eisenhower. But, seeing as he
is long dead, any<BR>social harm caused by this seems minimal. If you could
shut down one<BR>foreign base, cancel one weapons system at a cost of
inadvertently<BR>discouraging people from hating Eisenhower as much as they're
supposed<BR>to, it seems like a small price to pay.<BR><BR>There are a lot of
arenas where someone's usefulness as an authority<BR>is almost inversely
proportional to one's opinion of their intrinsic<BR>moral worth. Some pacifist
denounces the war in Afghanistan: great.<BR>George Will and Ann Coulter
denounce it: now you got something. If I<BR>point out that Ann Coulter has
denounced the war in Afghanistan, am I<BR>guilty of Ann
Coulter-promotion?<BR><BR>On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 9:49 AM, Morton K. Brussel
<<A href="mailto:mkb3@mac.com"
ymailto="mailto:mkb3@mac.com">mkb3@mac.com</A>> wrote:<BR>> I too have
used Eisenhower's words in hopes that they be taken literally<BR>> from
someone who understood the perils of militarism, but Wolff explains
why<BR>> to do this is to give a false image of Eisenhower.<BR>><BR>>
Eisenhower's "warnings about military overreach were couched, it's
usually<BR>> forgotten, in passages insisting on the need for a military of
unprecedented<BR>> size." The famous final warning about the
military-industrial complex is the<BR>> best example: It was immediately
followed by words that are typically<BR>> ignored: "We recognize the
imperative need for this development [of the<BR>> complex].... Our arms
must be mighty, ready for instant action" because the<BR>> communist threat
"promises to be of indefinite duration."<BR>><BR>> <A
href="http://www.truth-out.org/how-one-paragraph-a-single-speech-has-skewed-eisenhower-record66953"
target=_blank>http://www.truth-out.org/how-one-paragraph-a-single-speech-has-skewed-eisenhower-record66953</A><BR>><BR>>
_______________________________________________<BR>> Peace-discuss mailing
list<BR>> <A href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
ymailto="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</A><BR>>
<A href="http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss"
target=_blank>http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</A><BR>><BR>><BR><BR><BR><BR>--
<BR>Robert Naiman<BR>Policy Director<BR>Just Foreign
Policy<BR>www.justforeignpolicy.org<BR><A
href="mailto:naiman@justforeignpolicy.org"
ymailto="mailto:naiman@justforeignpolicy.org">naiman@justforeignpolicy.org</A><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Peace-discuss
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
ymailto="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss"
target=_blank>http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</A><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Peace-discuss
mailing
list<BR>Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net<BR>http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>