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    Why, man, he doth bestride the narrow world<br>
    Like a Colossus, and we petty men<br>
    Walk under his huge legs and peep about<br>
    To find ourselves dishonorable graves.<br>
    Men at some time are masters of their fates:<br>
    The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,<br>
    But in ourselves, that we are underlings. <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    On 3/21/11 6:28 PM, E. Wayne Johnson wrote:
    <blockquote cite="mid:4D87DF02.7020601@pigs.ag" type="cite">
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      Obama lied.  <br>
      <br>
      That's what he does.  <br>
      <br>
      We can't seem to blame him for it any more<br>
      than one can blame Limburger cheese for its odor<br>
      or blame narcissi for being yellow.  Those things<br>
      are intrinsic to the program.<br>
      <br>
      At this point, it is much worse than useless to <i>politely
        beseech
        the Congress</i> to <br>
      do anything at all.   The problem is not with the Congress, the
      cheese,<br>
      the bulbs, or even Mr Obama.<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      On 3/22/2011 2:53 AM, Robert Naiman wrote:
      <blockquote
        cite="mid:AANLkTinjtkwi=mjzk46V-nWgC53fmHtUkENw4NinYWpz@mail.gmail.com"
        type="cite">
        <div><br>
        </div>
        I don't know if you are being sarcastic. The point here is to
        reach out
        to people who are undecided about or supportive of the Libya
        intervention and point out to them that a dangerous precedent is
        being
        set if there is no Congressional debate. According to a recent
        CNN
        poll, a clear majority support the intervention right now (last
        week,
        it was the other way; this is typical - typically there is a
        significant swing to support once it is a fait accompli.) 
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Incidentally, here is Obama on Presidential authority to
          bomb
          other countries, 2007:</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="">Q. In what circumstances, if
            any,
            would the president have constitutional authority to bomb
            Iran without
            seeking a use-of-force authorization from Congress?
            (Specifically, what
            about
            the strategic bombing of suspected nuclear sites -- a
            situation that
            does not
            involve stopping an IMMINENT threat?)</p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="">A.The President does not have
            power
            under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military
            attack in a
            situation that does not involve stopping an actual or
            imminent threat
            to the
            nation.</p>
          <span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;;"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2008/specials/CandidateQA/ObamaQA/">http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2008/specials/CandidateQA/ObamaQA/</a></span><br>
          <br>
          <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 1:25 PM, E.
            Wayne
            Johnson <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:ewj@pigs.ag">ewj@pigs.ag</a>&gt;</span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px
              solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;
              padding-left: 1ex;">
              <div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">I understand the
                threat much
                more clearly and it really does make so
                more<br>
                sense to worry about war when it is framed in the
                spectral context of
                "President Palin".<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                *<br>
                <br>
                And this one woman, she was 23 or 24 And she was laying
                on the bed And
                you knew she was going to die... And, erh, we gave her a
                bottle of
                shampoo...
                <div>
                  <div class="h5"><br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    On 3/22/2011 1:33 AM, Robert Naiman wrote: </div>
                </div>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div>
                    <div class="h5">
                      <div class="gmail_quote"><span style="color:
                          rgb(85, 85, 85); font-family: Arial;
                          font-size: 13px;"><br>
                          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://my.firedoglake.com/robertnaiman/2011/03/21/congress-must-debate-the-libya-war/"
                            target="_blank">http://my.firedoglake.com/robertnaiman/2011/03/21/congress-must-debate-the-libya-war/</a><br>
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                                  102);">
                                  <h2 style="border-style: none;
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                                    outline-width: 0px; font-size: 28px;
                                    vertical-align: baseline;
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                                    font-family: Tahoma; font-weight:
                                    normal;"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://my.firedoglake.com/robertnaiman/2011/03/21/congress-must-debate-the-libya-war/"
                                      rel="bookmark" title="Permanent
                                      Link to Congress Must Debate the
                                      Libya War" style="border-width:
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                                      target="_blank">Congress Must
                                      Debate the Libya War</a></h2>
                                </td>
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                                  transparent;">By: <a
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="http://my.firedoglake.com/members/robertnaiman/"
                                    title="Robert Naiman"
                                    style="border-width: 0px; margin:
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                                    target="_blank">Robert Naiman</a> Monday
                                  March 21, 2011 1:12 pm</td>
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                          <div style="border-width: 0px; margin: 0.85em
                            0px 5px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                            font-size: 1em; vertical-align: baseline;
                            background-color: transparent; color:
                            rgb(68, 68, 68);">
                            <p style="border-width: 0px; margin: 1em
                              0px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                              font-size: 13px; vertical-align: baseline;
                              background-color: transparent;">The
                              U.S.
                              is now at war in a third Muslim country,
                              according to the
                              “official tally” (that is, counting Iraq,
                              Afghanistan and Libya but not
                              Pakistan or Yemen, for example.) But
                              Congress has never authorized or
                              debated the U.S. military intervention in
                              Libya. (A sharply disputed
                              claim holds that the Pakistan and Yemen
                              actions are covered by the 2001
                              authorization of military force, but
                              no-one has dared to argue that the
                              2001 AUMF covers Libya.)</p>
                            <p style="border-width: 0px; margin: 1em
                              0px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                              font-size: 13px; vertical-align: baseline;
                              background-color: transparent;">Some
                              will no doubt claim that the President is
                              acting in Libya within
                              his authority as Commander-in-Chief. But
                              this is an extremely dangerous
                              claim.</p>
                            <p style="border-width: 0px; margin: 1em
                              0px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                              font-size: 13px; vertical-align: baseline;
                              background-color: transparent;">To
                              put
                              it crudely: as a matter of logic, if
                              President Obama can bomb Libya
                              without Congressional authorization, then
                              President Palin can bomb Iran
                              without Congressional authorization. If,
                              God forbid, we ever get to
                              that fork in the road, you can bet your
                              bottom dollar that the
                              advocates of bombing Iran will invoke
                              Congressional silence now as
                              justification for their claims of
                              unilateral Presidential authority to
                              bomb anywhere, anytime.</p>
                            <p style="border-width: 0px; margin: 1em
                              0px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                              font-size: 13px; vertical-align: baseline;
                              background-color: transparent;">Some
                              Members of Congress have strongly objected
                              to President Obama’s
                              bombing of Libya without Congressional
                              approval.</p>
                            <p style="border-width: 0px; margin: 1em
                              0px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                              font-size: 13px; vertical-align: baseline;
                              background-color: transparent;">On
                              the
                              Democratic side, John Larson, chair of the
                              Democratic Caucus in the
                              House, called for President Obama to seek
                              congressional approval. Reps.
                              Jerrold Nadler, Donna Edwards, Mike
                              Capuano, Dennis Kucinich, Maxine
                              Waters, Rob Andrews, Sheila Jackson Lee,
                              Barbara Lee and Eleanor Holmes
                              Norton “all strongly raised objections to
                              the constitutionality of the
                              president’s actions” during a Saturday
                              call organized by Larson, the <em
                                style="border-width: 0px; margin: 0px;
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                                transparent;">Politico </em><a
                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                href="http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/51595.html"
                                style="border-width: 0px; margin: 0px;
                                padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                                font-size: 13px; vertical-align:
                                baseline; background-color: transparent;
                                color: rgb(15, 102, 145);
                                text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">reports</a>.</p>
                            <blockquote style="border-width: 0px;
                              margin: 0px 0px 0px 2em; padding: 0px;
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                              vertical-align: baseline; quotes: none;
                              font-family: sans-serif; font-style:
                              italic; color: rgb(67, 98, 129);">
                              <div style="border-width: 0px; margin:
                                0px; padding: 3px 30px 2px;
                                outline-width: 0px; font-size: 13px;
                                vertical-align: baseline;">
                                <p style="border-width: 0px; margin: 1em
                                  0px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                                  font-size: 13px; vertical-align:
                                  baseline; background-color:
                                  transparent;">“They
                                  consulted
                                  the Arab League. They consulted the
                                  United Nations. They did
                                  not consult the United States
                                  Congress,” one Democrat[ic] lawmaker
                                  said
                                  of the White House. “They’re creating
                                  wreckage, and they can’t obviate
                                  that by saying there are no boots on
                                  the ground. … There aren’t boots
                                  on the ground; there are Tomahawks in
                                  the air.”</p>
                                <p style="border-width: 0px; margin: 1em
                                  0px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                                  font-size: 13px; vertical-align:
                                  baseline; background-color:
                                  transparent;">“Almost
                                  everybody who spoke was opposed to any
                                  unilateral actions or
                                  decisions being made by the president,
                                  and most of us expressed our
                                  constitutional concerns. There should
                                  be a resolution and there should
                                  be a debate so members of Congress can
                                  decide whether or not we enter
                                  in whatever this action is being
                                  called,” added another House Democrat
                                  opposed to the Libyan operation.</p>
                                <p style="border-width: 0px; margin: 1em
                                  0px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                                  font-size: 13px; vertical-align:
                                  baseline; background-color:
                                  transparent;">“Whose
                                  side are we on? This appears to be
                                  more of a civil war than some
                                  kind of a revolution. Who are
                                  protecting? Are we with the people
                                  that
                                  are supposedly opposed to [Qadhafi]?
                                  You think they have a lot of
                                  people with him? If he is deposed, who
                                  will we be dealing with? There
                                  are a lot of questions here from
                                  members.”</p>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                            <p style="border-width: 0px; margin: 1em
                              0px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                              font-size: 13px; vertical-align: baseline;
                              background-color: transparent;">On
                              the
                              Republican side, Senator Richard Lugar,
                              ranking Member on Senate
                              Foreign Relations, told <em
                                style="border-width: 0px; margin: 0px;
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                                font-size: 13px; vertical-align:
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                                transparent;">CBS</em>‘
                              Face
                              the Nation yesterday that if we’re going
                              to war with Libya, we
                              ought to have a declaration of war by the
                              Congress:</p>
                            <p style="border-width: 0px; margin: 1em
                              0px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                              font-size: 13px; vertical-align: baseline;
                              background-color: transparent;">A
                              memo distributed to Republican aides in
                              the Senate Armed Services and
                              Foreign Relations Committee made the case
                              that Congressional
                              authorization is necessary and used Barack
                              Obama’s own words to make
                              the case, <em style="border-width: 0px;
                                margin: 0px; padding: 0px;
                                outline-width: 0px; font-size: 13px;
                                vertical-align: baseline;
                                background-color: transparent;">ABC</em> <a
                                moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/congress-vote-libya-fly-zone/story?id=13167045"
                                style="border-width: 0px; margin: 0px;
                                padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                                font-size: 13px; vertical-align:
                                baseline; background-color: transparent;
                                color: rgb(15, 102, 145);
                                text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">reported</a>.</p>
                            <blockquote style="border-width: 0px;
                              margin: 0px 0px 0px 2em; padding: 0px;
                              outline-width: 0px; font-size: 13px;
                              vertical-align: baseline; quotes: none;
                              font-family: sans-serif; font-style:
                              italic; color: rgb(67, 98, 129);">
                              <div style="border-width: 0px; margin:
                                0px; padding: 3px 30px 2px;
                                outline-width: 0px; font-size: 13px;
                                vertical-align: baseline;">
                                <p style="border-width: 0px; margin: 1em
                                  0px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                                  font-size: 13px; vertical-align:
                                  baseline; background-color:
                                  transparent;">The
                                  memo
                                  quotes Obama when he was in the Senate
                                  and there were concerns
                                  that then-President George W. Bush
                                  would take strike Iran.</p>
                                <p style="border-width: 0px; margin: 1em
                                  0px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                                  font-size: 13px; vertical-align:
                                  baseline; background-color:
                                  transparent;">“The
                                  president
                                  does not have power under the
                                  Constitution to unilaterally
                                  authorize a military attack in a
                                  situation that does not involve
                                  stopping an actual or imminent threat
                                  to the nation,” the memo quotes
                                  then-Senator Obama saying on Dec. 20,
                                  2007.</p>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                            <p style="border-width: 0px; margin: 1em
                              0px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                              font-size: 13px; vertical-align: baseline;
                              background-color: transparent;">In
                              times
                              like this, you can be sure some journalist
                              will marvel at the “<a
                                moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/20/obama-libya_n_838219.html"
                                style="border-width: 0px; margin: 0px;
                                padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                                font-size: 13px; vertical-align:
                                baseline; background-color: transparent;
                                color: rgb(15, 102, 145);
                                text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">strange
                                bedfellows</a>” coalition of Democrats
                              and
                              Republicans standing up to the President.
                              But there’s nothing strange
                              about this bed. Everyone who wants to live
                              in a constitutional republic
                              belongs in this bed. Everyone who wants to
                              hold the Administration to
                              its promise of a “limited intervention”
                              aimed at “protecting
                              civilians,” rather than overthrowing the
                              Libyan government, and to
                              avoid “mission creep” from the former to
                              the latter, belongs in this
                              bed.</p>
                            <p style="border-width: 0px; margin: 1em
                              0px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                              font-size: 13px; vertical-align: baseline;
                              background-color: transparent;">Congressional
debate
                              is a key means of compelling the
                              Administration to
                              clearly state its case and its objectives,
                              to be honest and transparent
                              about the potential cost of its proposed
                              policies, and to limit its
                              actions to its stated objectives; and to
                              force Members of Congress to
                              go on the record, in opposition or in
                              support, and to state clearly, if
                              they support, what it is that they
                              support. On cost, for example: each
                              Tomahawk missile is reported to cost on
                              the order of a million dollars.
                              So, firing 110 of them over the weekend
                              cost about $100 million, far
                              more than House Republicans cut from
                              National Public Radio with great
                              fanfare. Shouldn’t Congress consider this
                              expenditure?</p>
                            <p style="border-width: 0px; margin: 1em
                              0px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                              font-size: 13px; vertical-align: baseline;
                              background-color: transparent;">Two
                              days into the military intervention, there
                              was already sharp
                              dispute over whether the military
                              intervention that has unfolded has
                              already gone beyond what the UN Security
                              Council authorized and what
                              the Arab League endorsed.</p>
                            <p style="border-width: 0px; margin: 1em
                              0px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                              font-size: 13px; vertical-align: baseline;
                              background-color: transparent;">Yesterday,
                              the <em style="border-width: 0px; margin:
                                0px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                                font-size: 13px; vertical-align:
                                baseline; background-color:
                                transparent;">New
                                York
                                Times</em> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                href="http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/21/world/africa/21libya.html"
                                style="border-width: 0px; margin: 0px;
                                padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                                font-size: 13px; vertical-align:
                                baseline; background-color: transparent;
                                color: rgb(15, 102, 145);
                                text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">reported</a>:</p>
                            <blockquote style="border-width: 0px;
                              margin: 0px 0px 0px 2em; padding: 0px;
                              outline-width: 0px; font-size: 13px;
                              vertical-align: baseline; quotes: none;
                              font-family: sans-serif; font-style:
                              italic; color: rgb(67, 98, 129);">
                              <div style="border-width: 0px; margin:
                                0px; padding: 3px 30px 2px;
                                outline-width: 0px; font-size: 13px;
                                vertical-align: baseline;">
                                <p style="border-width: 0px; margin: 1em
                                  0px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                                  font-size: 13px; vertical-align:
                                  baseline; background-color:
                                  transparent;">A
                                  day
                                  after a summit meeting in Paris set
                                  the military operation in
                                  motion, some Arab participants in the
                                  agreement expressed unhappiness
                                  with the way the strikes were
                                  unfolding. The former chairman of the
                                  Arab League, Amr Moussa, told Egyptian
                                  state media that he was calling
                                  for an emergency Arab League meeting
                                  to discuss the situation in the
                                  Arab world and particularly Libya.</p>
                                <p style="border-width: 0px; margin: 1em
                                  0px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                                  font-size: 13px; vertical-align:
                                  baseline; background-color:
                                  transparent;">“What
                                  is happening in Libya differs from the
                                  aim of imposing a no-fly
                                  zone, and what we want is the
                                  protection of civilians and not the
                                  bombardment of more civilians,” he
                                  said, referring to Libyan government
                                  claims that allied bombardment had
                                  killed dozens of civilians in and
                                  near Tripoli.</p>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                            <p style="border-width: 0px; margin: 1em
                              0px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                              font-size: 13px; vertical-align: baseline;
                              background-color: transparent;">Today,
                              Moussa
                              appeared to <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110321/wl_nm/us_libya_arabs_moussa_1"
                                style="border-width: 0px; margin: 0px;
                                padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                                font-size: 13px; vertical-align:
                                baseline; background-color: transparent;
                                color: rgb(15, 102, 145);
                                text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">walk
                                back</a> these remarks.</p>
                            <p style="border-width: 0px; margin: 1em
                              0px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                              font-size: 13px; vertical-align: baseline;
                              background-color: transparent;">But
                              with Benghazi apparently no longer under
                              Libyan government threat,
                              and with Western bombs falling in Tripoli,
                              this dispute over the scope
                              of Western bombing is virtually certain to
                              intensify.</p>
                            <p style="border-width: 0px; margin: 1em
                              0px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                              font-size: 13px; vertical-align: baseline;
                              background-color: transparent;">You
                              can
                              debate the constitutional issue of war
                              powers until the cows come
                              home; but as a practical matter, if
                              Congress doesn’t formally address
                              the issue, such debate isn’t very
                              relevant. If a majority of the House
                              and the Senate support the present US
                              military intervention in Libya,
                              let them say so on the record, at least,
                              by voting for a resolution to
                              authorize military force. If the majority
                              of the House or Senate are
                              opposed, let them say so on the record. A
                              minimum standard for
                              transparency in government is that the
                              House and the Senate go on the
                              record for or against a new war.</p>
                            <p style="border-width: 0px; margin: 1em
                              0px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                              font-size: 13px; vertical-align: baseline;
                              background-color: transparent;"> <strong
                                style="border-width: 0px; margin: 0px;
                                padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                                font-size: 13px; vertical-align:
                                baseline; background-color:
                                transparent;">UPDATE:</strong> Former
                              MoveOn
                              and Democracy for America staffer Ilya
                              Sheyman, who is exploring
                              a run for Congress in Illinois’ 10th
                              Congressional District, has a <a
                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                href="http://www.ilyasheyman.com/on-libya/"
                                style="border-width: 0px; margin: 0px;
                                padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                                font-size: 13px; vertical-align:
                                baseline; background-color: transparent;
                                color: rgb(15, 102, 145);
                                text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">petition</a> calling
                              for Congress to debate the war in
                              Libya.</p>
                            <p style="border-width: 0px; margin: 1em
                              0px; padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                              font-size: 13px; vertical-align: baseline;
                              background-color: transparent;"> <i
                                style="border-width: 0px; margin: 0px;
                                padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                                font-size: 13px; vertical-align:
                                baseline; background-color:
                                transparent;">Robert
                                Naiman
                                is Policy Director at <a
                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  href="http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/"
                                  style="border-width: 0px; margin: 0px;
                                  padding: 0px; outline-width: 0px;
                                  font-size: 13px; vertical-align:
                                  baseline; background-color:
                                  transparent; color: rgb(15, 102, 145);
                                  text-decoration: none;"
                                  target="_blank">Just Foreign Policy</a>.</i></p>
                          </div>
                        </span><br>
                        <font color="#888888">-- <br>
                          Robert Naiman<br>
                          Policy Director<br>
                          Just Foreign Policy<br>
                          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="http://www.justforeignpolicy.org"
                            target="_blank">www.justforeignpolicy.org</a><br>
                          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="mailto:naiman@justforeignpolicy.org"
                            target="_blank">naiman@justforeignpolicy.org</a><br>
                          <br>
                        </font></div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <pre><hr size="4" width="90%">
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  </pre>
                </blockquote>
                <br>
              </div>
              <br>
              _______________________________________________<br>
              Peace-discuss mailing list<br>
              <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a><br>
              <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss"
                target="_blank">http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a><br>
              <br>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
          <br>
          <br clear="all">
          <br>
          -- <br>
          Robert Naiman<br>
          Policy Director<br>
          Just Foreign Policy<br>
          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="http://www.justforeignpolicy.org" target="_blank">www.justforeignpolicy.org</a><br>
          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:naiman@justforeignpolicy.org" target="_blank">naiman@justforeignpolicy.org</a><br>
          <br>
           <br>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
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</pre>
    </blockquote>
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