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Bob--<br>
<br>
Much as I appreciate your careful attention to improving my
character (which attention I'm sure should never be interpreted as
"attacking the person who explained it"), I'm still in the dark
about what that I've written is untrue.<br>
<br>
I pointed out that the Senate Democrats avoided another opportunity
to vote against the war - as they have done consistently since
gaining control of Congress more than four years ago. Isn't that
true?<br>
<br>
I did I admit indicate skepticism at your assertion that continuing
to vote for the war and funding it "isn't a good indicator of their
sentiment." <br>
<br>
Is what I "have written [that] is not true" my implied lack of faith
in the coming "clean vote"? Should I simply be affirming, against
the appearances, that the Democrats and President Obama are really
against the war and and are doing what they can to end it quickly?
Is that true?<br>
<br>
I first heard that point asserted passionately more than forty years
ago by partisans of President Nixon in his first term, but I am
surprised to hear you take that position now, if that's what you're
doing. <br>
<br>
But best wishes in any case for your continued endeavors <br>
to assert the truth & reform the characters of those around
you,<br>
<br>
Carl<br>
<br>
<br>
On 4/7/11 10:23 AM, Robert Naiman wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:BANLkTikf8AgqKJkzEbvJehUOaNO=1aaROg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div class="moz-text-plain" wrap="true" graphical-quote="true"
style="font-family: -moz-fixed; font-size: 12px;"
lang="x-western">
<pre wrap="">As usual, when it is explained that something which you have written
is not true, you attack the person who explained it and try to change
the subject, instead of acknowledging that you were wrong, something
that I have never, ever seen you do, that I can recall. This is
telling, because all human beings are wrong sometimes. So, since you
are human, you must be wrong sometimes. Yet you are apparently
incapable of ever acknowledging it. I see this as a character flaw.
On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 2:12 PM, C. G. Estabrook <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu"><galliher@illinois.edu></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<pre wrap=""><span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>Is it misinforming people to say what the Democrats actually do - rather
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>than try to reassure people about what is presumably in their secret hearts?
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>Wouldn't you say it's misinfornign people - to put no finer point on it - to
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>continue to encourage the delusion that the Democrats are opposed to the US
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>war in the Mideast - now the MENA War, I suppose - and are just waiting for
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>a "clean vote" or a chance to give "a good indicator of where they stand"?
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>I know the Democrats have been doing that for years - Obama built a
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>presidential campaign on it - but people are not fools and may actually see
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>through pundits' mystifications. Meanwhile Obama continues to order killing
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>and torture from Quantico to Kandahar.
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>On 4/6/11 11:59 AM, Robert Naiman wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<pre wrap=""><span class="moz-txt-citetags">>></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>> </span>I know that you're not educable on this. I'm just trying to stop you
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>> </span>from misinforming other people.
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>> </span>On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 11:55 AM, C. G. Estabrook<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu"><galliher@illinois.edu></a>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>> </span> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<pre wrap=""><span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>> </span>Come on, Bob. Senate Democrats had a chance to vote against what everyone
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>> </span>admits was an unconstitutional act of war and chose instead to vote for
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>> </span>it.
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>> </span>Just as they could have cut off funds for Bush's war (it only took 41
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>> </span>votes)
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>> </span>and chose not to do it.
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>> </span>I'm when the Socialists voted for war credits in Germany in 1914, it
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>> </span>"wasn't
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>> </span>good a indicator of where people stood." Maybe they were waiting for a
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>> </span>"clean" vote.
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>> </span>On 4/6/11 11:45 AM, Robert Naiman wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<pre wrap=""><span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>> </span>The analysis of the peace folks watching this in Washington is that
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>> </span>this vote wasn't a good indicator of sentiment in the Senate. Senator
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>> </span>Lugar, a Republican who has been arguably the most prominent
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>> </span>Republican critic both of the war in Libya and the decision to launch
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>> </span>it without Congressional authorization, voted with the 90 to table,
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>> </span>not with the 10. The question on the floor was attaching language
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>> </span>about war powers to a small business bill.
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>> </span>I'm not against what Senator Paul did; it's more than anyone else has
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>> </span>managed to do on the floor of either body so far. But this particular
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>> </span>vote is not a good indicator of where people stand. Senator Webb, like
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>> </span>Senator Lugar (though not as prominently) has been very critical.
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>> </span>Hopefully, Paul or Lee or others will come back with something else
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>> </span>that will allow a more clean vote ("clean" in the sense of not being
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>> </span>entangled with other issues.)
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>> </span>On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 9:26 PM, C. G. Estabrook<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu"><galliher@illinois.edu></a>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>> </span> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<pre wrap=""><span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span>10 GOP Senators Vote to Oppose Libya Intervention
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span>Posted: 05 Apr 2011 03:29 PM PDT
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span>Senator Rand Paul’s resolution opposing President Obama’s use of force
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span>in
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span>Libya gained the support of 10 Republican senators — and not a single
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span>Democrat.
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span>The resolution was the same as a quote from President Obama when he was
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span>a
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span>Senator and presidential candidate:
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span>“The president does not have power under the Constitution to
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span>unilaterally
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span>authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span>stopping
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span>an
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span>actual or imminent threat to the nation.”
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span>The resolution was defeated by a motion to table. The vote was 90-10.
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span>Republican Senators voting to oppose US intervention in Libya were:
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span>Collins (R-ME), DeMint (R-SC), Ensign (R-NV), Johnson (R-WI), Lee
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span>(R-UT),
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span>Moran (R-KS), Paul (R-KY), Sessions (R-AL), Sowe (R-ME), Toomey (R-PA)
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span>Where are the antiwar Democrats?
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span>_______________________________________________
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span>Peace-discuss mailing list
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span><a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>> </span><a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss">http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>>></span>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>>></span>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>> </span>_______________________________________________
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>> </span>Peace-discuss mailing list
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>> </span><a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>> </span><a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss">http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>>></span>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><span class="moz-txt-citetags">>></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>></span>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>_______________________________________________
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>Peace-discuss mailing list
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span><a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span><a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss">http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">></span>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
<div class="moz-txt-sig">--
Robert Naiman
Policy Director
Just Foreign Policy
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.justforeignpolicy.org">www.justforeignpolicy.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:naiman@justforeignpolicy.org">naiman@justforeignpolicy.org</a>
</div></pre>
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