<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Some may be interested in these exchanges about anti-war efforts from the UFPJ list-serve. They have been going on interminably, it seems, but still are interesting in reflecting the divisions and discussions within the "movement". <div><br></div><div>--mkb<br><div><br><div>Begin forwarded message:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>From: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">tim carpenter <<a href="mailto:pdatimcarpenter@gmail.com">pdatimcarpenter@gmail.com</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>Date: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">May 15, 2011 12:25:36 AM CDT<br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>To: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">David McReynolds <<a href="mailto:dmcreynolds@nyc.rr.com">dmcreynolds@nyc.rr.com</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>Cc: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">Peace Geezers <<a href="mailto:peace.geezers@lists.riseup.net">peace.geezers@lists.riseup.net</a>>, <a href="mailto:ufpj-activist@lists.mayfirst.org">ufpj-activist@lists.mayfirst.org</a><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;"><b>Re: [ufpj-activist] Regarding the 2012 election</b><br></span></div><br>thanks David...great email to close out the night...peace<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 9:41 PM, David McReynolds <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dmcreynolds@nyc.rr.com">dmcreynolds@nyc.rr.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Arial">Your first reaction to a vote for Obama may well be
"never". At 81 I've been through this game all my</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">life, twice running for President on the Socialist Party
ticket, and always telling audiences I wasn't so</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">concerned with getting their vote as getting their minds
to think along new lines.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Unless 2012 is totally different from all those in the
past, by September of 2012 everyone will have</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">convinced themselves that if the GOP candidate wins things
will be worse than Hitler. I remember </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">in 1960 (that is a long time ago!) that in May and June of
that year liberals were wearing "No One</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">For President" buttons, but by October they were backing
Kennedy.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">On the most basic issues the two parties are the
same - that is, both support a capitalist structuring</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">of the economy, and both support the military/industrial
complex. (The liberals supported the</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Vietnam War in its early days, and today support NATO
actions in Libya).</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">On some issues there are differences. If you are elderly,
if you are a person of color, if you are</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">a union member, you can expect slightly better treatment
from the Democrats.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">What is much more important is to keep in mind the
following things:</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">. . . No matter who is President, if there is a real
opposition in Congress, even a few real "tribunes</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">of the people" it makes a difference. That means
paying attention of what Tim Carpenter is saying.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">. . . No matter who is President, or who is in Congress,
it is often "what is happening in the streets"</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">that is more important. How many of you are old enough to
remember the May Days in 1971 when</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">15,000 people were arrested in Washington DC over the
course of three days (my figures may be</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">off - I think on the final day, when I got arrested, there
are only about 1500 that day). Tear gas</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">floated over Georgetown. Think of the first real coalition
demonstration in October 15, 1965, </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">pulled together by Norma Becker - thousands of people
marched down Fifth Avenue in New York</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">to protest the war. That was the beginning of the great
coalitions that climaxed in hundreds of</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">thousands demonstrating in Washington DC. Some of those
marching were in the Democratic</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Party - the important thing is that on that day they were
marching with their feet.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">. . . No matter who is President, we all vote every day of
the year. Some (not me, I don't earn</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">enough to withhold) refuse to pay war taxes. Some write
their members of Congress. Some</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">vigil. Some work in community groups. Some belong to a
local political club.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">. . . At this point, from what I can see (and read on
these lists) PDA has some very good folks</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">in it who are thinking "outside the established Democratic
Party" and it also has some folks who</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">are members of the Democratic Party.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">There is too often a very rigid view of social change in
these exchanges. The Soviet Union was</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">a dictatorship run by a Central Committee. And yet out of
that rigid monoply of power came Nikita</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Khrushchev. And out of that same rigid structure came
Gorbachev, who deserves the real credit</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">for ending the insanity of the Cold War.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">It was the Communist Party in Czechoslovakia which
experimented with the "Prague Spring".</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">If such radical changes could occur from within such rigid
structures, why do we assume that </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><b><font color="#0000ff">any and all work at any
level</font></b> of the Democratic Party is a sell out? Of course the
Democratic</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Party itself won't bring socialism, or demilitarization.
But why do we act as if we were living</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">under a dictatorship tighter than that in the Soviet
Union? Social change occurs at many levels</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">and we make an enormous mistake if we start shooting each
other over who does and who</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">doesn't support Obama. I won't. But I will be working with
people who do.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">David McReynolds</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div>----- Original Message ----- </div>
<blockquote style="border-left:#000000 2px solid;padding-left:5px;padding-right:0px;margin-left:5px;margin-right:0px">
<div style="font:10pt arial;background:#e4e4e4"><b>From:</b>
<a title="takauff@gmail.com" href="mailto:takauff@gmail.com" target="_blank">Tarak Kauff</a>
</div>
<div style="font:10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="pdatimcarpenter@gmail.com" href="mailto:pdatimcarpenter@gmail.com" target="_blank">tim carpenter</a> </div>
<div style="font:10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b> <a title="ufpj-activist@lists.mayfirst.org" href="mailto:ufpj-activist@lists.mayfirst.org" target="_blank">ufpj-activist@lists.mayfirst.org</a>
</div>
<div style="font:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 14, 2011 10:04
PM</div>
<div style="font:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [ufpj-activist] Fw: let the
debate bloom</div>
<div><br></div>Bill Fletcher has also stated in Black Commentator that if push
comes to shove, yes he will reluctantly support Obama and I suspect a good
section of PDA will do the same, citing the alternative is unthinkable. So we
wind up playing the same game ad infinitum don't we?
<div><br></div>
<div>There are however alternatives that go beyond our corrupted electoral
politics as usual but you have to think a little bit outside the box. Or you
can keep playing the game, trying to reform, trying to make it better, get
more progressive people in congress and while playing that game of very slow
progress, Rome is burning. </div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I also noticed no direct answer about whether PDA will support Obama. I
wonder if instead, PDA took it's considerable collective political
intelligence and put that towards encouraging and leading by example with
direct nonviolent civil resistance to the machine, instead of the legally
safe, ineffective way of using the system to transform the system, we could
really accomplish something together. I'm not at all trying to put PDA down, I
have a lot of respect for many of it's leaders and members, just thinking out
loud here and offering an alternative approach. TK
<div><br></div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On May 14, 2011, at 4:55 PM, tim carpenter wrote:</div><br>again not true
Kevin.....more independents and greens work
with PDA then you claim ...ask David
Cobb, Medea Benjamin, Sen Bernie Sanders and Ben Manski to
name a few<br><br>as for 2012..... going
to do as Bill Fletcher has
challenged us...get involved in races where we
can make a difference.. for PDA that
means going flat out to elect Norman Solomon
and Marcy Wingograd <br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Kevin Zeese <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kbzeese@gmail.com" target="_blank">kbzeese@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left:#ccc 1px solid;margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">Carl<br><br>I was finished with this conversation but then
Tim's small "d" comment startled me and made me curious. So, I was really
not intending to harp on this, but I was sincerely confused by his
comment.<br><br>I learned that legal classification the other day and was
glad to do so, but PDA still describes itself on its website as "operating
inside the Democratic Party." Does that sound remotely
independent? It sounds like, well ... inside the Democratic
Party. And, that is consistent with their actions. They only
challenge Dems in primaries, never in General Elections. The website is
filled with Democratic elected officials. It endorses everything the
Progressive Caucus says, even their recent budget which did not support
single payer health care. Even the Progressive Caucus needs to be pushed to
take the right positions.<br><br>I bet you are a rarity, Carl, not being
registered Democrat in PDA. I'm sure it is over 95% registered
Dem. <br><br>There is no need to run from being inside the party and
being made up of registered Democrats, just don't now try to call PDA
independent or small "d", unless there will be a major change in its
rhetoric, strategy and operations. I would welcome such changes, so I
do not want to stand in the way of PDA becoming PdA.<br><br>Did I miss the
answer to Tarak's question about what PDA is going to do about Obama in
2012? <br><font color="#888888"><br>KZ</font>
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 4:02 PM, Carl Davidson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:carld717@aol.com" target="_blank">carld717@aol.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left:#ccc 1px solid;margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">KZ, you know as well as I do that
PDA is an independent PAC. It organizes among Democratic voters, and
encourages the more progressive candidates, but it has no formal
structural ties to the Democratic Party. Moreover, with some 75,000
members and supporters ( it needs ten times that) , it has a diverse array
of views, as it should, and is hardly monolithic.
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br>On 5/14/2011 3:56 PM, Kevin Zeese wrote: </div></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div></div>
<div>Tim<br><br>When I read that I smiled, I thought that is totally
different. A small "d" -- wow. I could even join an organization
like that!<br><br>But then I went back and looked at your website and
you describe yourself as about "transforming the Democratic Party" and a
"PAC operating inside the Democratic Party." <br><br>How does that
make you a small "D"? I'm sure I am not the only one confused.
<br><br>If you were a small D you would be a group that is seeking to
bring real progressive democracy to the United States, not a two party
corporate-duopoly; and a PAC operating separate from any political party
seeking to improve American democracy.<br><br>I am very confused what
you mean by small "d" -- perhaps you were making a joke? If not,
you should change the "What is PDA" page on your website, <a href="http://www.pdamerica.org/about/what-is-pda" target="_blank">http://www.pdamerica.org/about/what-is-pda</a>. If
you really are small d, I bet a lot of people would join who are not
currently members.<br><br>KZ<br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 1:23 PM, tim carpenter
<span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pdatimcarpenter@gmail.com" target="_blank">pdatimcarpenter@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left:rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">Bruce why we say
progressive first democrats
second<br><br>progressive democrats :-) (
small d)
<div>
<div><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 7:00 AM, Global Network
<span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:globalnet@mindspring.com" target="_blank">globalnet@mindspring.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left:rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Arial">I am not one who is bored or tired with
this discussion. I think one of the reasons we are in the mess
we are in is because we do so little reflecting and have so few
opportunities for nationwide strategic planning. We spend lots
of time and energy putting out fires and chasing after one war or
the other. Let's face it, it's a big country and we are up
against massive corporate power and money. So I rather enjoy
this back and forth, as god knows, I too am casting about for
answers and new ways to build the peace and the needed revolution of
values.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">I have very much appreciated the honest
comments by local organizers who share similar difficulties trying
to keep organizing alive as people continue to give Obama and his
party a pass. It was much the same during the time of
Clinton. But then once Bush II stole his first election many
of the sheep came back to the flock. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Our most successful organizing in Maine, and
in the northeast during the past year or so, has been around the
theme of <a href="http://www.bringourwardollarshome.org/" target="_blank">Bring Our War $$ Home</a>. This has enabled us
to reach out more effectively to the unions, teachers, poor people's
groups, and the like. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">It is a blessing, and a curse, that we are a
fragmented movement in this huge nation. It becomes difficult
to move as one - though our fragmentation allows us to reach into
many corners. One thing that encourages me is that despite our
mainstream media blackout, still 60% of the American people agree
that we should get out of Afghanistan. So on some level our
message is getting out there. The need now is to move that 60%
to take some kind of action. That will only happen when they
feel doing so benefits them in some way. Thus the importance
of making the connections between endless war and fiscal crisis at
home.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">The 46 states in fiscal crisis today total
debt comes to $130 billion. The Pentagon will spend about $170
billion just this year on our wars in
Iraq-Afghanistan-Pakistan-Libya. We have a strong case to make
that teacher, firemen, and police layoffs could be averted - school,
library, public hospital closings could be averted - social program
cuts could all be averted if we end these wars now.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">It is absolutely true that the Democrats (with
a few noble exceptions) don't want to do this. I agree with
the others who have said we must have a peace movement that is
independent of any political party. Loyalty should go to
movement first and party second. Build the movement and the
politicians will follow. To try to do it in the reverse order
is a strategic mistake.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Bruce K. Gagnon<br>Coordinator<br>Global
Network Against Weapons & Nuclear Power in Space<br>PO Box
652<br>Brunswick, ME 04011<br><a href="tel:%28207%29%20443-9502" value="+12074439502" target="_blank">(207) 443-9502</a><br><a href="mailto:globalnet@mindspring.com" target="_blank">globalnet@mindspring.com</a> <br>
<a href="http://www.space4peace.org/" target="_blank">www.space4peace.org</a> <br><a href="http://space4peace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://space4peace.blogspot.com/</a>
(blog)</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>Thank God men cannot fly, and lay waste
the sky as well as the earth. ~Henry David Thoreau
<br></font></div>
<div> </div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br></div></div>
<div>
<div>-- <br><font color="#888888">Tim Carpenter<br>Director
Progressive Democrats of America (PDA)<br><a href="http://pdamerica.org/" target="_blank">pdamerica.org</a><br>Facebook: <a href="http://facebook.com/PDAmerica" target="_blank">facebook.com/PDAmerica</a><br>Become a ¢hange makes
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