<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">We don't know about the state of his soul, Mike - his sincerity or commitment - but we do know that for some time now he's said he was wrong to vote for the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, and - even more importantly - has consistently voted against more money for war in the Mideast. He even joined Reps. Kucinich & Paul et al. in a suit against the illegal attack on Libya. <div><br></div><div>Aren't we trying to get the members of this government, whatever their moral purity, to put an end to this criminal war? Vietnam ended, not because we elected angels, but because the same people who'd been there all along were forced to end it. </div><div><br></div><div>When I ran against Tim on the eve of the invasion of Iraq, I condemned his apparent willingness to support it. During the campaign, I met privately with Tim & his people (at his invitation) to try to dissuade him from voting for the "Authorization for the Use of Military Force against Iraq." But the administration apparently sold him the yellow-cake story ("secret information"), & he voted for the AUMF.</div><div><br></div><div>His subsequent declaration that he shouldn't have done so - and even more his consistent votes against the Bush/Obama war in the Mideast - shouldn't be set aside. Are we going to vote for Democrats who "support the president" as he continues to expand the drone attacks, the "special operations," the killing across SW Asia and Africa? <br><div><div><br></div><div>Regards, CGE</div><div><br></div><div>On Sep 29, 2011, at 11:35 AM, Mike Lehman wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"> <meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252" http-equiv="Content-Type"> <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Carl,<br> 35 years of experience with the duplicitous Tim - always railing against things he's in fact supported at various more politically convenient times -- doesn't convince me he has much sincerity or commitment to his new, now seemingly dovish position.<br> Mike Lehman<br> <br> On 9/29/2011 10:37 AM, C. G. ESTABROOK wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:DBCADA15-6868-403A-8633-208733F65739@shout.net" type="cite">That's an astonishing statement, Mike. Here we spend ten years trying to convince the government to cease its criminal wars, and when a congressman - no better than he should be - comes around to the correct point view, we dismiss it...? <div><br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div> <div> <div>On Sep 29, 2011, at 10:10 AM, Mike Lehman wrote:</div> <br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> <blockquote type="cite"> <div style="background-color: #fff;"> <span style="display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text"><p> A stopped clock is right twice a day. That hardly rates a headline -- or a Subject line -- in my book.<br> Mike Lehman<br> <br> On 9/29/2011 10:06 AM, C. G. ESTABROOK wrote: </p> <blockquote cite="mid:B75967DD-ACB9-45B0-B848-D85A74E1CAC4@shout.net" type="cite"> Apparently similar in this regard to his potential Democratic opponents (whom he also resembles in talking nonsense about the deficit). <br> <div> <div><br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>On Sep 29, 2011, at 8:56 AM, David Green wrote:</div> <br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> <blockquote type="cite"> <div> <div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div><span>And also unwilling to consider the implications re Israel/Palestine.</span></div> <div><br> <blockquote style="border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255);border-left-width: 2px;border-left-style: solid;"> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Arial" size="2"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> C. G. ESTABROOK <<a moz-do-not-send="true" moz="true" href="mailto:cge@shout.net">cge@shout.net</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" moz="true" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net">peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> sf-core <<a moz-do-not-send="true" moz="true" href="mailto:sf-core@yahoogroups.com">sf-core@yahoogroups.com</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, September 29, 2011 8:51 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> [Peace-discuss] Local rep. right about war...<br> </font><br> <div id="yiv79045151"> <div>[...but wrong about Social Security, Medicare, and the deficit... --CGE]</div> <div><b><br> </b></div> <b>Johnson stance on war draws support</b> <div id="yiv79045151node-736076"> <div>Wed, 09/28/2011 - 9:03pm | Tom Kacich</div> <div> <div align="">DECATUR -- About two years after he first called for the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq and Afghanistan, U.S. Rep. Tim Johnson, R-Urbana, now appears to be gaining the support of his constituents.</div> <div align="">Speaking to about 100 people -- nearly all white and conservative -- at the Decatur Public Library, Johnson received a burst of applause Wednesday evening when he again called for an end to U.S. military involvement in the Middle East.</div> <div align="">Johnson also suggested gradually raising the retirement age to strengthen Social Security and Medicare, and said he was willing to look at revenue measures, not just budget cuts, to reduce the federal deficit.</div> <div align="">The six-term congressman criticized Democrats for not being willing to make cuts in federal spending and hit Republicans for supporting only "cuts in non-defense discretionary spending."</div> <div align="">"That is not acceptable, ladies and gentlemen," said Johnson. "I understand there are people in here who are going to vehemently disagree with me and who believe that every war is a good war. The reality is that by the time we will have completed our quote-unquote mission -- and I don't know what the mission is, ladies and gentlemen -- we will have spent close to 4 trillion dollars in those wars.</div> <div align="">"We cannot exclude defense from the cuts in dealing with our national debt."</div> <div align="">Johnson said he doesn't believe his constituents "are one iota safer because we're losing thousands of American men and women, and hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in Afghanistan and Libya and Iraq."</div> <div align="">"I have consistently voted in appropriation after appropriation and bill after bill to get out of Iraq and Afghanistan and Libya," he said. It was at that point and during other statements about defense spending that Johnson received his only sustained applause during the meeting.</div> <div align="">"We can't afford it in our men and women's lives, we can't afford it in our infrastructure, and we can't afford it fiscally," he said of the wars.</div> <div align="">Following the meeting, Johnson said he was surprised by the response.</div> <div align="">"But generally in the public and even among the conservative base, people are starting to say, why are we here? Why are we spending the money? Why are we allowing men and women to be killed for a mission we cannot define? I think it's critical to our economic and moral future that we get out tomorrow, and that we don't engage in some new stupid war the next time. I'm just quoting the president."</div> <div align="">On other issues, Johnson said:</div> <div align="">-- He thinks Social Security and Medicare can be strengthened by gradually raising the retirement age.</div> <div align="">"To prevent the system from going bankrupt, there have to be modest changes for new workers in the system," he said. "For people who are entering the system tweaking the age of retirement, when it has stayed the same for decades, makes economic sense. Relatively small changes in the retirement age have a dramatic effect on the fiscal soundness of Social Security. I'm not suggesting we move the age to 75, but moving it to 67 1/2 over a phased-in period makes economic sense and moral sense."</div> <div align="">He also said he wouldn't rule out the need for higher contributions into the system.</div> <div align="">"I'm not ruling anything out but what I'm ruling in is the fact that we have to make common-sense, fair changes to preserve the safety net," he said. "If we don't do that there's going to be no Social Security, no Medicare for the future."</div> <div align="">-- He is not ruling out the need for revenue measures to cut into the federal budget deficit.</div> <div align="">"The revenue side of the equation has to be examined. There are a number of tax loopholes that exist now, some tax breaks that are being phased out that I support phasing out and others that I don't. I think we need to look at the whole picture. I don't think you can responsibly look at the debt crisis we face without looking at every aspect of ways to solve it."</div> <div align=""><a moz-do-not-send="true" moz="true" href="http://www.news-gazette.com/news/politics-and-government/2011-09-28/johnson-stance-war-draws-support.html">http://www.news-gazette.com/news/politics-and-government/2011-09-28/johnson-stance-war-draws-support.html</a></div> <div align=""><br> </div> </div> </div> </div> <br> _______________________________________________<br> Peace-discuss mailing list<br> <a moz-do-not-send="true" moz="true" href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" ymailto="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a><br> <a moz-do-not-send="true" moz="true" href="http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a><br> <br> <br> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> <br> </blockquote> <br> <div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"> </div> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:rebelmike@earthlink.net?subject=Re%3A%20%5Bsf-core%5D%20Re%3A%20%5BPeace-discuss%5D%20Local%20rep%2E%20right%20about%20war%2E%2E%2E" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:sf-core@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5Bsf-core%5D%20Re%3A%20%5BPeace-discuss%5D%20Local%20rep%2E%20right%20about%20war%2E%2E%2E"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sf-core/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJwc2hvZmc4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzc4OTI2NjMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BG1zZ0lkAzMzMTIEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxMzE3MzA5MDQ4?act=reply&messageNum=3312">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sf-core/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc25ycnVvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzc4OTI2NjMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMxNzMwOTA0OA--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sf-core/message/3311;_ylc=X3oDMTM0cDRmdjNwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzc4OTI2NjMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BG1zZ0lkAzMzMTIEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDdnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMzE3MzA5MDQ4BHRwY0lkAzMzMTE-">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">2</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sf-core;_ylc=X3oDMTJlaTU3N251BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzc4OTI2NjMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMxNzMwOTA0OA--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ygrp-mkp" style="border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; clear: both; float: left; font-family: Arial; margin: 5px 0 10px 0; padding: 0 10px;"> <div id="hd" style="color: #628c2a; font-size: 85%; font-weight: 700; line-height: 122%; margin: 10px 0;">MARKETPLACE</div> <div id="ads" style="margin-bottom: 10px;"> <div class="ad" style="color: #628C2A; font-family: Arial; font-weight: 700; padding: 0 0;"><p><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://global.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=15o2bcl7o/M=493064.14543979.14562481.13298430/D=groups/S=1705060375:MKP1/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1317316248/L=36abf60c-eaad-11e0-bb3e-eba21cc8df51/B=3EMpAWKJiTs-/J=1317309048893803/K=lzyFrOlDkhRIGH9duVTJfQ/A=6060255/R=0/SIG=1194m4keh/*http://us.toolbar.yahoo.com/?.cpdl=grpj">Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! 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