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I dont think that partisanism is the answer at all.<br>
It's the Evil Party and the Stupid Party and they spend a lot of time
accusing each other,<br>
and occasionally they get together and gang up on the rest of us<br>
and do some thing really Stupid and Evil.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2/2/2012 1:16 AM, Corey Mattson wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAA6G5rzw_=dH_r1PEp-23yNwRRpeWQSFqF8GNFa8psTWUVSPXQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">I agree with everything David Johnson says here. I'd also
like to add a few points.<br>
<br>
First, I no longer believe the Democrats are necessarily the lesser
evil. In the area of education, Obama is worse in that they have a
terrible agenda that rivals the Republicans and are more likely able to
see it through. (Still, the bureaucrats in my union, the NEA, tailor
their politics to benefit the electoral success of their "friends".)
This is the case in so many areas. Worse, when the Democrats do
something crappy, because it is a Democrat who did it, many liberals
(not all, of course) don't rise in opposition. I'm starting to think
the Democratic Party is the greater evil for these reasons.<br>
<br>
Second, from my experience working with liberal friends in groups
through the years, I've seen firsthand how their working for the
electoral success of Democrats has stifled movements and seriously
limited the political program of movements to fit the Democratic Party
conservative agenda. Much energy is sucked out of movement politics due
to electoralism, and worse, political positions often get determined by
whether or not they might negatively affect Democratic politicians.
(Don't oppose the war now! It might hurt Obama. Don't oppose current
threats against Iran! After all, it might hurt Obama.) <br>
<br>
If we seriously believe that it is movements that result in real
change, the Democratic Party is undoubtedly the single most hindrance
to change. It's the albatross around our necks. We won't get the party
independent of business when we vote for the Democrats year after year,
justifying the act as meaningful, suffering defeat after defeat.<br>
<br>
I, too, disagree at any notion that it was the Naderites responsible
for Bush or any conservative agenda. I voted for Ron Daniels in '92,
Nader in '96, ' 00' and '04 and don't feel one bit responsible for Bush
or any other politician. In my view, it is the strategy of working
within the Democratic Party for change that has failed, as we see the
political landscape continue to gravitate to the right, Democratic
Party and all. I also think it is highly authoritarian for some my
liberal friends (not all) to assume that the Democratic Party has my
vote in this supposed democracy, and for them to assume as well that
any given vote of mine is a temporary deviation. I have never voted for
a Democrat in a national race, and my opposition was only strengthened
after groups like Progressive Democrats for America, in collusion with
the Democratic Party, tried to take away my vote for president in 2004
by kicking Nader off the ballot in some states. This proved, beyond all
doubt, that there's very little that is democratic about the Democratic
Party.<br>
<br>
Maybe it's easy for me to write how I feel here, even if it's a little
too forthcoming, because I'm from BloNo and don't know that many people
in Chambana. But I say all the above in the spirit of collaboration and
solidarity, since I don't believe that partisan issues should impede
movement coalitions.<br>
<br>
In solidarity, Corey<br>
BloNo<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 9:45 PM, David
Johnson <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dlj725@hughes.net">dlj725@hughes.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div class="im">
<div><font face="Arial" size="4"><font face="Times New Roman"
size="3">" Re splinter groups: the Nadarites put Bush in the White
House in 2000 "</font></font></div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">Excuse me Jenifer,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">But people who voted for Nader in
2000 did NOT put Bush in the WhiteHouse.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">Do your homework and check out
; Greg Palast's excellent reporting on the disenfranchisement of
hundreds of thousands of minority voters at the polls via Choicepoint
Inc. among other " improper " ie. illegal activities in Florida via Jeb
Bush's Attorney General Katherine Harris.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">Not to mention the U.S. Supreme
Courts refusing to allow a second vote in Florida and APPOINTING George
Bush to the Presidency.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">Last but not least, in any other
democractic country in the world, the cheated candidate and party in
a stolen election would have been leading massive protests in the
streets and shuting down the country with general strikes until a
another recount or election was held.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">But not Al Gore and the DNC. Gore
rolled over when his corporate masters told him to and conceded without
a whimper. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">And then, the DNC propoganda
machine went into effect and with the usual ruling class technique of
diversion stated : " don't blame the corrupt corporate system that
stole an election, it was Nader's fault " !</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">And people like you swallowed it
hook, line, and sinker !</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">Besides, Al Gore would have done
the same policies as George Bush did ( invasion of Iraq, Afganistan,
etc. etc. etc. ) just as Obama is carry forth the very same policies as
George Bush and even expanding them.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">The same 1% ruling class control
both corporate parties ( the repubs and the dems ).</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">The only hope for electoral change
in this country IS A THIRD PARTY that is grassroots driven and takes NO
corporate money.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">OR, a take over of the democratic
party, and I don't see that happening.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">Where were the progressive
democrats in running a primary challenge to Obama ?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">NOBODY came forward like Cornell
West BEGGED for, if for no other reason than to have a forum to speak
out about what the majority of people in this country want and to put
negotiation pressure on Obama, ESPECIALLY with all of the class
inequality and anti-war issues the Occupy Movement was getting, even in
the corporate media.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">A lost oppurtunity if I ever saw
one !</font> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">The republican debates are nothing
but a circus sideshow to scare people like you into voting AGAIN for
Obama, who broke EVERY campaign promise he made and has expanded the
wars, corporate power, the dismantling of civil liberties and
privacy, inequality, etc.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">I am PROUD that I voted for Nader
in 2000 and Cynthia McKinney in 2008.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">My vote is too precious to EVER
vote for someone who is going to screw me over like the war criminal,
corporate whore and pathological liar</font> <font face="Arial" size="4">Barack
Obama.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">He is no better than the
republicans, just a smoother liar, in fact they are ALL ( Obama,
Romney, Gingrich, Santorum, et al ) beholden to the same corporate
masters and will do their bidding accordingly, despite their campaign
rhetoric to targeted constituencies.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">Until people like you WAKE-UP and
realize that things will NEVER get better voting for corporate
democrats or ANY candidates that take corporate money, than NOTHING is
going to change for the better in this country, and the downward spiral
will continue !</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">btw. I have NO Ivory Tower and
never had. I just learned from experience, starting with Bill Clinton,
that I was getting screwed. I see their scam and I refuse to cooperate.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">The least one can do until the
revolution.</font> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">Respectfully</font></div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="4">David Johnson</font></div>
</font></span>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div> </div>
<blockquote
style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;"><b>From:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" title="jencart13@yahoo.com"
href="mailto:jencart13@yahoo.com" target="_blank">Jenifer Cartwright</a>
</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>To:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" title="dlj725@hughes.net"
href="mailto:dlj725@hughes.net" target="_blank">David Johnson</a> ; <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="brussel@illinois.edu"
href="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu" target="_blank">Morton KBrussel</a>
</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Cc:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" title="peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank">Peace-discuss
List</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Sent:</b>
Tuesday, January 31, 2012 1:00 PM</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [Peace-discuss] were it not for the rack monster</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign="top"> I've listened to every Republican
debate so far (check YouTube for full debate for each date if you've
avoided them so far) b/c it's the ONLY thing that makes me willing to
vote for Obama, and maybe (hopefully) it'd be ditto for you. Listen to
the ones on foreign issues, OMG!!! Yes, it's great that Paul's views on
those get a forum (hopefully Obama et al are paying attention to who's
paying attention to Paul: the very voters who helped him win in 2008)
-- but Romney or Gingrich will be the nominee (w/ the truly insane and
terrifying Santorum as veep).
<div> Re splinter groups: the Nadarites put Bush in the
White House in 2000, and the Teabaggers further loused things up for
everyone in 2010... So those unwilling to acknowledge- and vote for the
significantly lesser of two terrible evils can do it again in 2012
(it's collateral damage I'm not willing to risk from the safety of my
own ivory tower).</div>
<div> --Jenifer <br>
<br>
--- On <b>Mon, 1/30/12, Brussel, Morton K <i><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu"
target="_blank">brussel@illinois.edu</a>></i></b> wrote:<br>
<blockquote
style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;"><br>
From: Brussel, Morton K <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu" target="_blank">brussel@illinois.edu</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] were it not for the rack monster<br>
To: "David Johnson" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dlj725@hughes.net" target="_blank">dlj725@hughes.net</a>><br>
Cc: "Peace-discuss List" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>><br>
Date: Monday, January 30, 2012, 11:05 PM<br>
<br>
<div>
<div>No disagreement from me on this, but I am at
skeptical that your admonitions can succeed under present conditions.
Yet, I do favor such actions.
<div>You may be interested in what I wrote in response to
Paul Street's article on what to do for the coming elections:
<div><br>
</div>
<div> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.zcommunications.org/reflections-on-the-quadrennial-extravaganza-by-paul-street"
rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.zcommunications.org/reflections-on-the-quadrennial-extravaganza-by-paul-street</a>.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I wrote </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><i>It takes
time and special conditions to solve the problems we now
face—injustice, inequality, and the attack on the globe's resources.
In fact, there may well be no satisfactory solution at hand. None of
the electoral alternatives discussed here seem desirable. I for one
could never in good conscience vote for the murderous militaristic
corporate driven Obama administration. And I agree that a vote for a
weak third party (as per Chomsky's strategy) in the current state of
our rigged electoral system would be futile. I believe that conditions
will have to get much more dire before any mass popular awakening can
occur. How remote this is I don't know. Something cataclysmic might
trigger it. What one wants of course is to convince others that they
are truly suffering due to the present system, in the hope that an ever
greater enlightened majority can upset that system with something far
better. <br
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;">
<br
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;">
Is the OWS movement a step in the right direction? Yes, but it will
have to stay the course and become much more organized and massive to
"change the course of human events". The forces against it are
formidable. How it will affect the coming elections is uncertain. </i></span></div>
<div><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">--Mort</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><br
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;">
</span>
<div>
<div>On Jan 30, 2012, at 10:35 PM, David Johnson wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><span
style="text-transform: none; text-indent: 0px; border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: medium; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none; white-space: normal; letter-spacing: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;">
<div><font face="Arial"><font face="Times New Roman"
size="3"> "A good list for a fair society, but the question remains:
How do we get there (or even partially there) from here? What is to be
done? "</font></font></div>
<font face="Arial">
<div>--mkb</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">Agitate, Educate, Organize, Occupy,
Resist</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">David J.</font></div>
<div> </div>
</font>
<blockquote
style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;">-----
Original Message -----</div>
<div
style="background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228); font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>From:</b><span> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="brussel@illinois.edu"
href="http://mc/compose?to=brussel@illinois.edu" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">Brussel, Morton K</a></div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>To:</b><span> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="ewj@pigs.ag"
href="http://mc/compose?to=ewj@pigs.ag" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">E.
Wayne Johnson</a></div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Cc:</b><span> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="peace-discuss@anti-war.net"
href="http://mc/compose?to=peace-discuss@anti-war.net" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">Peace-discuss</a></div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Monday,
January 30, 2012 10:08 PM</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re:
[Peace-discuss] were it not for the rack monster</div>
<div><br>
</div>
A good list for a fair society, but the question remains: How do we
get there (or even partially there) from here? What is to be done?
<div>--mkb</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Jan 30, 2012, at 7:20 PM, E. Wayne Johnson
wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div><span>"I'd start a r[3vol]ution...if I could
get up in the morning" - Aimee Allen<br>
<br>
*<br>
I found this piece in Common Dreams this morning and find several good
points here,<br>
and it might be an interesting discussion piece.<br>
<br>
<br>
Published on Monday, January 23, 2012 by<span> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.commondreams.org/"
rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Common Dreams</a></span>
<div>
<h2>Ten Steps for Radical Revolution in the US</h2>
</div>
<div>by<span> </span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.commondreams.org/bill-quigley" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">Bill Quigley</a></div>
</div>
<p><i>“I am convinced that if we are to get on the
right side of the world revolution, we as a nation must undergo a
radical revolution of values.”<span> </span></i><b>--Dr. Martin Luther
King, Jr. 1967</b></p>
<p><b>One.</b><span> </span>Human rights must be
taken absolutely seriously. Every single person is entitled to dignity
and human rights. No application needed. No exclusions at all. This is
our highest priority.<span style="width: 325px;"><span></span></span></p>
<p><b>Two.</b><span> </span>We must radically
reinvent contemporary democracy. Current systems are deeply corrupt and
not responsive to the needs of people. Representatives chosen by money
and influence govern by money and influence. This is unacceptable.
Direct democracy by the people is now technologically possible and
should be the rule. Communities must be protected whenever they
advocate for self-determination, self-development and human rights.
Dissent is essential to democracy; we pledge to help it flourish.</p>
<p><b>Three.</b><span> </span>Corporations are not
people and are not entitled to human rights. Amend the US Constitution
so it is clear corporations do not have constitutional or human rights.
We the people must cut them down to size and so democracy can regulate
their size, scope and actions.</p>
<p><b>Four.</b><span> </span>Leave the rest of the
world alone. Cut US military spending by 75 percent and bring all
troops outside the US home now. Defense of the US is a human right.
Global offense and global police force by US military are not.
Eliminate all nuclear and chemical and biological weapons. Stop
allowing scare tactics to build up the national security forces at
home. Stop the myth that the US is somehow special or exceptional and
is entitled to act differently than all other nations. The US must
re-join the global family of nations as a respectful partner. USA is
one of many nations in the world. We must start acting like it.</p>
<p><b>Five.</b><span> </span>Property rights,
privilege, and money-making are not as important as human rights. When
current property and privilege arrangements are not just they must
yield to the demands of human rights. Money-making can only be allowed
when human rights are respected. Exploitation is unacceptable. There
are national and global poverty lines. We must establish national and
global excess lines so that people and businesses with extra houses,
cars, luxuries, and incomes share much more to help everyone else be
able to exercise their basic human rights to shelter, food, education
and healthcare. If that disrupts current property, privilege and
money-making, so be it.</p>
<p><b>Six.</b><span> </span>Defend our earth. Stop
pollution, stop pipelines, stop new interstates, and stop destroying
the land, sea, and air by extracting resources from them. Rebuild what
we have destroyed. If corporations will not stop voluntarily, people
must stop them. The very existence of life is at stake.</p>
<p><span>We respect the human rights and human
dignity of others and work for a world where love and wisdom and
solidarity and respect prevail.</span></p>
<p><b>Seven.</b><span> </span>Dramatically expand
public spaces and reverse the privatization of public services. Quality
public education, health and safety for all must be provided by
transparent accountable public systems. Starving the state is a recipe
for destroying social and economic human rights for everyone but the
rich.</p>
<p><b>Eight.</b><span> </span>Pull the criminal
legal prison system up and out by its roots and start over. Cease the
criminalization of drugs, immigrants, poor people and people of color.
We are all entitled to be safe but the current system makes us less so
and ruins millions of lives. Start over.</p>
<p><b>Nine.</b><span> </span>The US was created
based on two original crimes that must be confessed and made right.
Reparations are owed to Native Americans because their land was stolen
and they were uprooted and slaughtered. Reparations are owed to African
Americans because they were kidnapped, enslaved and abused. The US has
profited widely from these injustices and must make amends.</p>
<p><b>Ten.</b><span> </span>Everyone who wants to
work should have the right to work and earn a living wage. Any workers
who want to organize and advocate for change in solidarity with others
must be absolutely protected from recriminations from their employer
and from their government.</p>
<p>Finally, if those in government and those in
power do not help the people do what is right, people seeking change
must together exercise our human rights and bring about these changes
directly. Dr. King and millions of others lived and worked for a
radical revolution of values. We will as well. We respect the human
rights and human dignity of others and work for a world where love and
wisdom and solidarity and respect prevail. We expect those for whom the
current unjust system works just fine will object and oppose and accuse
people seeking dramatic change of being divisive and worse. That is to
be expected because that is what happens to all groups which work for
serious social change. Despite that, people will continue to go forward
with determination and purpose to bring about a radical revolution of
values in the USA.</p>
</div>
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