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<DIV>" Not sure <BR>what David thinks, but sometimes I know we'd all just
like to kick <BR>someone's car door and go home. Makes one feel better, but
doesn't <BR>change much. "</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>No Mike,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I don't think everyone on either the Peace Discuss
nor the SF list are Obama supporters.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I will respond soon to you comments about "
sophisticated approach to building alliances ".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Respectfuly</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>David Johnson</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rebelmike@earthlink.net href="mailto:rebelmike@earthlink.net">Mike
Lehman</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=sf-core@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:sf-core@yahoogroups.com">sf-core</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 04, 2012 2:24 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [sf-core] Notes on co-opting
Occupy</DIV>
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<P>Carl,<BR>I didn't breathe a word about voting for Obama. Maybe that's your
first <BR>assumption about people, but I thankfully never voted for him,
Clinton <BR>or any Democrat for president as far as I can recall.<BR><BR>Yes,
I have worked with Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Greens,
<BR>anarchists and, yes, even socialists to get good things done.<BR><BR>I
generally found it counterproductive to engage in a stream of us vs <BR>them
rhetoric in getting anything done.<BR><BR>Yes, I agree institutions are
problematic and possibly compromising to <BR>work with unless one keeps ones
wits about them.<BR><BR>And I certainly favor the building of alternative
institutions, having <BR>put the greatest part of the efforts of my life into
doing just that, <BR>mostly without having to engage too fine a filter about
who I was <BR>willing to work with.<BR><BR>I guess I'm just weary of listening
to the barrage of commentary that <BR>seems to presume the SF list is an arm
of Obama 2012. That's sad <BR>commentary, if it were true, but I think
actually reflects your <BR>assumptions about others far more than it does
those I know. Not sure <BR>what David thinks, but sometimes I know we'd all
just like to kick <BR>someone's car door and go home. Makes one feel better,
but doesn't <BR>change much.<BR><BR>Not that I'm trying to make you "them" vs
our "us" or anything. Not at <BR>all, exactly the opposite. But I think it's a
tune I've personally found <BR>to be grating, oblivious, and
self-congratulatory more than it is <BR>informative or liable to start a
fruitful discussion. You're welcome to <BR>still be you and care so deeply
about the things you do, but just don't <BR>assume by the silence that you're
somehow doing more to help things than <BR>you otherwise might. This is
especially so among those who share most of <BR>your concerns if you were to
take a more circumspect line, because it <BR>appears what you do actually acts
to subvert a productive conversation <BR>on these matters by your tone,
undermining your often eloquent evidence <BR>and argument.<BR><BR>Are we all
obligated to achieve perfection before we do anything productive?<BR><BR>Is
the Good really the enemy of the Perfect?<BR><BR>I'd like to hope that change
is possible, but realize those, too, have <BR>become widely discredited
principles in recent decades.<BR>Mike<BR><BR>On 5/4/2012 11:54 AM, C. G.
Estabrook wrote:<BR>> I think the Obama people are counting on this to get
re-elected, just <BR>> as they counted on co-opting (and betraying) the
anti-war movement to <BR>> get elected in 2008.<BR>><BR>> In order
not to acquiesce in the administration's murder and looting - <BR>> its
foreign wars and Wall St. bailouts - this president will have to <BR>> be
driven from office as Johnson and Nixon were.<BR>><BR>> His successor
will take a lesson, or then be driven from office in <BR>> turn (again
like, Johnson and Nixon).<BR>><BR>> We're not looking for an autocratic
revolution, but a popular one, <BR>> which will move toward freedom and
democracy. That can take place only <BR>> if a mass of the population is
implementing it, carrying it out and <BR>> solving problems. They're not
going to undertake that commitment, <BR>> understandably, unless they have
discovered for themselves that there <BR>> are limits to
reform.<BR>><BR>> A sensible revolutionary will try to push reform to
the limits, for <BR>> two good reasons. First, because the reforms can be
valuable in <BR>> themselves. People should have an eight-hour day rather
than a <BR>> twelve-hour day. And in general, we should want to act in
accord with <BR>> decent ethical values.<BR>><BR>> Secondly, on
strategic grounds, you have to show that there are limits <BR>> to reform.
Perhaps sometimes the system will accommodate to needed <BR>> reforms. If
so, well and good. But if it won't, then new questions <BR>> arise. Perhaps
that is a moment when resistance is necessary, steps to <BR>> overcome the
barriers to justified changes. Perhaps the time has come <BR>> to resort to
coercive measures in defense of rights and justice, a <BR>> form of
self-defense. Unless the general population recognizes such <BR>> measures
to be a form of self-defense, they're not going to take part <BR>> in them,
at least they shouldn't.<BR>><BR>> If you get to a point where the
existing institutions will not bend to <BR>> the popular will, you have to
eliminate the institutions, not form <BR>> 'sophisticated ... alliances'
with them.<BR>><BR>> On May 4, 2012, at 8:35 AM, Mike Lehman
wrote:<BR>><BR>>> I certainly do share y'alls dissatisfaction with
venerable institutions<BR>>> selling out those they
represent...<BR>>><BR>>> On the other hand, if we're trying to
build a majority to overturn the<BR>>> present system, I'd strongly
suggest a more sophisticated approach to<BR>>> building alliances. Those
revolutions that focus on the need to purge<BR>>> our way to utopia in
themselves often turn out to be not much of a<BR>>> revolution at
all.<BR>>><BR>>> Just saying.<BR>>> Mike
Lehman<BR>>><BR>>> On 5/3/2012 5:06 PM, David Johnson
wrote:<BR>>>> Carl,<BR>>>><BR>>>> Great E-mail
!<BR>>>><BR>>>> Yes, the UAW bureaucrats are very much
involved in the 99 % Spring <BR>>>> thing.<BR>>>> When I
went to their pathetic training in Chicago in March, the head <BR>>>>
of the<BR>>>> UAW Northern Ilinois Region was there.<BR>>>>
I saw the UAW logo on his polo shirt and commented on it, and that
<BR>>>> is when<BR>>>> he introduced himself to
me.<BR>>>> I know Greg Shotwell who Louis ( original e-mail subject
author ) <BR>>>> refers to<BR>>>> and YES ! The UAW over the
last 30-years has de-evolved into a <BR>>>> corporate<BR>>>>
collaborationist so called " union " from it's once proud militant
<BR>>>> heritage<BR>>>> and actions during the 1930's and
40's and even through the 70's.<BR>>>> I said from the begining of
the Occupy Movement that rank and file <BR>>>> Union<BR>>>>
members need an Occupy Movement within the Unions as well, <BR>>>>
coordinated with<BR>>>> the general Occupy Movement.<BR>>>>
Many liberals may feel uncomfortable about this topic, but they
must<BR>>>> understand that although the neo-liberal capitalists are
the primary <BR>>>> enemy,<BR>>>> the majority of the Union
bureaucracy ( with the grand exception of the<BR>>>> U.E. - United
Electrical Workers ) are collaborators just as the French<BR>>>>
Vichy " government " were collaborators with the nazis, and hence we
<BR>>>> need to<BR>>>> support not the collaborators, but
instead the REAL Resistance and REAL<BR>>>> democracy
!<BR>>>> If anyone doubts my statements I would be more than happy to
give <BR>>>> specific<BR>>>> examples about the UAW 's track
record alone, not to mention other <BR>>>> Union's<BR>>>>
malfeasence against the democratic will and the best interests of
their<BR>>>> members they are suppose to represent.<BR><BR></P></DIV><!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
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