At the AWARE table at the Farmer's Market this past week, Stuart engaged two people in conversation about exactly this subject. Stuart asked, "Do you know about the drone program?" The younger of the two said she'd never heard of it. Stuart proceeded to give an excellent 2-minute summary of the issue, followed by a copy of the article with the shocking headline about Obama murdering kids. Will that headline prompt her (a) to join in peaceful protest against war criminals, or (b) to repeat the thinking that produced the atrocities described in the article?<div>
<br></div><div>I think we start with choice (c): It will help her to know what's going on.<div><br></div><div><div><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 2:18 PM, C. G. Estabrook <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:carl@newsfromneptune.com" target="_blank">carl@newsfromneptune.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Eleanor--<br>
<br>
How about, "Hey, hey, LBJ! / How many kids did you kill today?" Would you consider that "unproductive ... vitriolic, violent, and inflammatory language"?<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
In fact, that chant - from 45 years ago - brought home to many Americans what their soldiers were doing in Vietnam; chants and demonstrations like that had a lot to do with turning Americans against that war.<br>
<br>
By 1969 about 70% of the public had come to regard the Vietnam war as "fundamentally wrong and immoral," not "a mistake," largely as a result of the impact of student protest.<br>
<br>
Today, when two-thirds of the public say we should withdraw out troops from the Mideast - but two-thirds of the Congress think we should continue to kill people there - we need a way to break through the fact that the media are not covering Obama's expansion of the wars in Asia and Africa. We need to let people know about the child-murders he's committing in their name.<br>
<br>
You cannot mean to equate "violent ... vocabulary" with killing kids.<br>
<br>
The "violent vocabulary" is necessary to describe what our government is doing, particularly when so many soi-disant progressives are ignoring - or, worse, justifying what Obama is doing (with the outlandish and irrelevant argument "Romney would do the same thing": whoever is president must be prevented from committing these crimes).<br>
<br>
To that end, AWARE will be distributing the article headlined "Sleepwalking, etc." at coming demonstrations. (For the full text, see the AWARE Facebook page.) --CGE<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Jun 18, 2012, at 11:14 AM, Charles Evans wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
It is really unproductive to the Occupy/Peace movement to use vitriolic, violent and inflammatory language to advance the cause of nonviolence and create a world in which all people understand each others' cultures and acknowledge that we are all dependent on each other, and because of that we see each individual as having value. The best way to reach that goal is to become active and engaged in groups where people work together on common causes such as environmental issues, nonviolent peace groups, etc. Instead of waving banners that are often violent sounding go to Africa or Palestine and work on bringing people together. When you create movements that are violent in your vocabulary you are becoming the very people or actions you despise. I am speaking directly to your quotation "I met......". Please forward this to others who are engaged in this discussion.--- Eleanor Evans<div class="im">
<br>
<br>
--- On Sun, 6/17/12, C. G. Estabrook <<a href="mailto:carl@newsfromneptune.com" target="_blank">carl@newsfromneptune.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
From: C. G. Estabrook <<a href="mailto:carl@newsfromneptune.com" target="_blank">carl@newsfromneptune.com</a>><br></div><div class="im">
Subject: Re: [OccupyCU] [Peace-discuss] sleepwalking into the drone age - "I Met a 16-Year-Old Kid. 3 Days Later Obama Killed Him"<br></div>
To: <a href="mailto:s.hansen@comcast.net" target="_blank">s.hansen@comcast.net</a><br>
Cc: "Peace Discuss" <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net" target="_blank">peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>>, "Stuart Levy" <<a href="mailto:salevy@illinois.edu" target="_blank">salevy@illinois.edu</a>>, "ocCUpy" <<a href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank">occupycu@lists.chambana.net</a>><br>
Date: Sunday, June 17, 2012, 1:51 PM<div class="im"><br>
<br>
Why do you put 'the government' in quotation marks?<br>
<br>
The only reason to do demonstrations like this is to build pressure against the government's crimes, as was done in Vietnam and the civil rights movement.<br>
<br>
Obama & the Democrats know that perfectly well - he discussed the matter in "The Audacity of Hope" - and they've worked hard to co-opt the antiwar movement.<br>
<br>
That was a principal reason for his election in 2008.<br>
<br>
We can't suggest that that co-option continues to work.<br>
<br>
Obama can of course stop killing kids overnight, just by ceasing the drone strikes. He can also stop shiping arms to Syria and 'Special Operations' murderers to more than 100 countries around the world. And he can withdraw troops from Afghanistan as easily as he sent them in.<br>
<br>
<br>
On Jun 17, 2012, at 7:30 AM, <<a href="mailto:s.hansen@comcast.net" target="_blank">s.hansen@comcast.net</a>> <<a href="mailto:s.hansen@comcast.net" target="_blank">s.hansen@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="im">
Yes, I think this could possibly, eventually, put pressure on 'the government'. After all, kids grow up, and faster than we want sometimes. The current mess was thirty or forty years in the making. If we can straighten it out, it's not going to happen overnight. I think if I were a parent, I would want to teach my precious ones by example how to get out there and exercise their right to free, non-violent speech. They need to learn to find their own voice and express their feelings about these events, and in the end it will be their struggle. This is going to be a small town event. I really don't think anyone in 'the government' that counts will even be watching this, and this could be an opportunity to help us teach them what a person does when they disagree with their government. That the constitution and all says that they have a right to do this. And, if even if the 'government' that counted was actually watching the CU Fourth of July Parade, why would they be reassured by an army of protesters in training. Power to the Kids! They are going to need it.<br>
Solidarity<br>
Sandra<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br></div><div><div class="h5">
From: "C. G. Estabrook" <<a href="mailto:carl@newsfromneptune.com" target="_blank">carl@newsfromneptune.com</a>><br>
To: "Jenifer Cartwright" <<a href="mailto:jencart13@yahoo.com" target="_blank">jencart13@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Cc: "s hansen" <<a href="mailto:s.hansen@comcast.net" target="_blank">s.hansen@comcast.net</a>>, "Peace Discuss" <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net" target="_blank">peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>>, "Stuart Levy" <<a href="mailto:salevy@illinois.edu" target="_blank">salevy@illinois.edu</a>>, "ocCUpy" <<a href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank">occupycu@lists.chambana.net</a>><br>
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 10:17:08 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [OccupyCU] [Peace-discuss] sleepwalking into the drone age - "I Met a 16-Year-Old Kid. 3 Days Later Obama Killed Him"<br>
<br>
Could this possibly contribute to putting pressure on our government<br>
to cease its crimes?<br>
<br>
Or would it just reassure them that they can continue as they are,<br>
with nothing to fear form the anti-war movement?<br>
<br>
<br>
On Jun 16, 2012, at 9:33 PM, Jenifer Cartwright wrote:<br>
<br>
> We'll get lots more traction w/ a kinder gentler entry. And if we're<br>
> gonna ask kids, it's even more important -- and less upsetting to<br>
> them -- to approach it from the positive side of things (yeah, hard<br>
> for some on this list to do that, when they sooooooo prefer, even<br>
> relish the negative stuff). Q: what can we do to make things<br>
> peaceful? Answers will be general (and funny, too at times): be<br>
> nice; don't fight; tell people you like them; help them, share,<br>
> don't be a bully... If anybody has access to a ready made group, it<br>
> could be a mini project. Otherwise, AWARE et al could poll kids at e<br>
> g the Farmers' Market (w/ parents permission, of course) -- jot down<br>
> the answers, along w/ kids' names, last initial, home town... and<br>
> later make the signs (somebody already said these need to be brief<br>
> and readable).<br>
><br>
><br>
> --- On Sat, 6/16/12, <a href="mailto:s.hansen@comcast.net" target="_blank">s.hansen@comcast.net</a> <<a href="mailto:s.hansen@comcast.net" target="_blank">s.hansen@comcast.net</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
> From: <a href="mailto:s.hansen@comcast.net" target="_blank">s.hansen@comcast.net</a> <<a href="mailto:s.hansen@comcast.net" target="_blank">s.hansen@comcast.net</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [OccupyCU] [Peace-discuss] sleepwalking into the drone<br>
> age - "I Met a 16-Year-Old Kid. 3 Days Later Obama Killed Him"<br>
> To: "C. G. Estabrook" <<a href="mailto:carl@newsfromneptune.com" target="_blank">carl@newsfromneptune.com</a>><br>
> Cc: "Peace Discuss" <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net" target="_blank">peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>>, "Jenifer<br>
> Cartwright" <<a href="mailto:jencart13@yahoo.com" target="_blank">jencart13@yahoo.com</a>>, "ocCUpy" <<a href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank">occupycu@lists.chambana.net</a><br>
> >, "Stuart Levy" <<a href="mailto:salevy@illinois.edu" target="_blank">salevy@illinois.edu</a>><br>
> Date: Saturday, June 16, 2012, 12:43 PM<br>
><br>
> #yiv332638414 p {margin:0;}<br>
> Hey everyone--just a thought. Maybe you should get some ideas from<br>
> some kids about what they think about war and what kind of statement<br>
> they would like to make in a parade about something like war and<br>
> all. I know they are all exposed to everything on the news about<br>
> our troubled times, and maybe they should give us some input on what<br>
> adults should be doing about these things. What kind of float would<br>
> they like to make, to make the point of 'Peace'. I know when I was<br>
> 8,9,10 years old, I was thinking about these things, and worrying<br>
> about atomic bombs and such. No one every asked me about my worries<br>
> or for my op-pinion for that matter. Surely there are some 8,9,10<br>
> yearolds thinking about these things. Epically in families that are<br>
> politically active. Maybe adults are over thinking things a little<br>
> too much. Just a thought. Never had kids, but some times they give<br>
> us the best, unfiltered by baggage, ideas. After all, 4th of July<br>
> Parades are for kids, or the kid in all of us. I think is is a<br>
> great idea to have kids in Parade, how bout give them a voice in<br>
> what they would want to do. They might be able to say it simpler<br>
> than us 'grtown-ups'. We don't want it to be a downer do we? Wish I<br>
> had some kids around to ask, but I don't have any kids or grand kids<br>
> either for that matter. Any way just a thought. Has any one ask an<br>
> actual kid what they think?<br>
><br>
> Sandra<br>
><br>
> From: "C. G. Estabrook" <<a href="mailto:carl@newsfromneptune.com" target="_blank">carl@newsfromneptune.com</a>><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> To: "Stuart Levy" <<a href="mailto:salevy@illinois.edu" target="_blank">salevy@illinois.edu</a>><br>
> Cc: "Peace Discuss" <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net" target="_blank">peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>>, "Jenifer<br>
> Cartwright" <<a href="mailto:jencart13@yahoo.com" target="_blank">jencart13@yahoo.com</a>>, "ocCUpy" <<a href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank">occupycu@lists.chambana.net</a><br>
> ><br>
> Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 10:06:13 AM<br>
> Subject: Re: [OccupyCU] [Peace-discuss] sleepwalking into the drone<br>
> age - "I Met a 16-Year-Old Kid. 3 Days Later Obama Killed Him"<br>
><br>
> "To some degree it matters who's in office, but it matters more how<br>
> much pressure they're under from the public." - Noam Chomsky<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Jun 16, 2012, at 1:36 AM, Stuart Levy wrote:<br>
><br>
> > The article's "sleepwalkers" aren't our leaders, but the American<br>
> > people - Clive Smith writes:<br>
> ><br>
> > The dearth of US domestic criticism is astounding. The last time a<br>
> > president indulged in an illegal bombing campaign in the sovereign<br>
> > territory of allies (Richard Nixon in 1969, in Cambodia and Laos),<br>
> > the policy nearly got included in the articles of impeachment. We<br>
> > should remember that history, as the Vietnamese capitalised on the<br>
> > backlash, helping to impose the genocidal Khmer Rouge on Cambodia,<br>
> > and a single-party regime that endures 40 years later in Laos.<br>
> ><br>
> > Ultimately, Mitt Romney faces a dilemma: what must a Republican<br>
> > candidate do to outflank the extremism of his Democratic opponent?<br>
> > The rest of us must be concerned as well: we are sleepwalking into<br>
> > the Drone Age, and few people are debating the dire consequences.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On 6/16/12 1:20 AM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:<br>
> >><br>
> >> The problem with that is that it suggests "War" killed the kid.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Obama killed him. He didn't have to.<br>
> >><br>
> >> And he isn't "sleepwalking." He's quite conscious.<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> On Jun 15, 2012, at 11:24 PM, Jenifer Cartwright wrote:<br>
> >><br>
> >>> A banner w/ the famous quote -- WAR IS NOT GOOD FOR CHILDREN AND<br>
> >>> OTHER LIVING THINGS -- would cover most of the suggestions so far<br>
> >>> for the 4th of July Parade... including this sad sad drone poster.<br>
> >>> A cemetery full of crosses would get the idea across.<br>
> >>> I didn't like the idea of dressing kids in camouflage -- looks<br>
> >>> like we're promoting child soldiers, when actually we aren't<br>
> >>> promoting ANY soldiers, right?? Not bloody stuff or gory<br>
> >>> pictures, either -- this is a family event, and we'll get farther<br>
> >>> if we emphasize the peace- rather than the war aspects. Just my<br>
> 2c.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> --- On Thu, 6/14/12, Stuart Levy <<a href="mailto:salevy@illinois.edu" target="_blank">salevy@illinois.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> From: Stuart Levy <<a href="mailto:salevy@illinois.edu" target="_blank">salevy@illinois.edu</a>><br>
> >>> Subject: [Peace-discuss] sleepwalking into the drone age - "I Met<br>
> >>> a 16-Year-Old Kid. 3 Days Later Obama Killed Him"<br>
> >>> To: "Peace Discuss" <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net" target="_blank">peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>>, "ocCUpy" <<a href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank">occupycu@lists.chambana.net</a><br>
> >>> ><br>
> >>> Cc: "Stuart Levy" <<a href="mailto:salevy@illinois.edu" target="_blank">salevy@illinois.edu</a>><br>
> >>> Date: Thursday, June 14, 2012, 7:17 AM<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> This article could move a lot of people, I think, who are inclined<br>
> >>> to believe the Administration's line about killing only truly<br>
> >>> deserving militants with our drone strikes. We should hand it<br>
> >>> out at the Market, at least.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> <a href="http://www.alternet.org/story/155723/i_met_a_16-year-old_kid._3_days_later_obama_killed_him?page=entire" target="_blank">http://www.alternet.org/story/<u></u>155723/i_met_a_16-year-old_<u></u>kid._3_days_later_obama_<u></u>killed_him?page=entire</a><br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> And I'd really like to include something about drones in the 4th<br>
> >>> of July parade.<br>
> >>> The picture below is from the AFSC exhibit<br>
> >>> "Windows and Mirrors / Reflections on the War in Afghanistan"<br>
> >>> <a href="http://www.windowsandmirrors.org/" target="_blank">http://www.windowsandmirrors.<u></u>org/</a><br>
> >>> which was on display in Chicago during the anti-NATO conference -<br>
> >>> one of about<br>
> >>> thirty large pieces. Perhaps we could bring the exhibit here --<br>
> >>> maybe in the fall?<br>
> >>> But I wonder if we could get permission to reproduce this stark<br>
> >>> image as a parade poster.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> <efgjhgag.png><br>
><br>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
Peace-discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<u></u>net</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.chambana.net/<u></u>mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote>
<br>
<br>
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<div class="im"><br>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
OccupyCU mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:OccupyCU@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank">OccupyCU@lists.chambana.net</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/occupycu" target="_blank">http://lists.chambana.net/<u></u>mailman/listinfo/occupycu</a><br>
</div></blockquote>
<br><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
Peace-discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<u></u>net</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.chambana.net/<u></u>mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a><br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>