<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=iso-8859-1"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Come on, Stuart. I'm posting to political discussion lists and answering people who comment on what I post or reply.<div><br></div><div>I'm shocked but not surprised at the attempt to enforce liberal orthodoxy on these lists. The same thing happened in AWARE during the 2008 election.</div><div><br></div><div>Now of course the child-killer in the White House needs even more help than he did then. Liberals become remarkably illiberal when it's their ox that's Algored. </div><div><br></div><div>"Let a hundred flowers bloom, a thousand schools of thought contend." <br><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On Jul 31, 2012, at 12:56 PM, Stuart Levy <<a href="mailto:stuartnlevy@gmail.com">stuartnlevy@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
Please, I agree with Ricky. This kind of wrangling is (a) why
meeting groups have subcommittees, (b) a distraction for AWARE and
all the other groups on this list from any work we should be doing,
and (c) far too much traffic for anyone who isn't retired to attend
to. I certainly don't have time to, and I have to moderate these
messages. Please let's move this discussion either to peace-discuss
or (better, if you ask me) to private messages.<br>
<br>
I'm deliberately omitting JwJ and CUCPJ from this reply. Let's hope
others do likewise.<br>
<br>
I'd really like to see some discussion of what AWARE might do about
the spin-up to making war on Syria. Pepe Escobar's article is right
on - but what can we do to make our voices heard? Also, this
coming week is the 67th anniversary of the US bombings of Hiroshima
and Nagasaki, at a time when the US is ramping up its production of
*new* nuclear weapons. More of that in another message when I get
a bit more time...<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/31/12 12:41 PM, Carl G. Estabrook
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:0D6637B1-863D-4ECE-8A6D-57570720E05B@illinois.edu" type="cite">
John--
<div><br>
</div>
<div>David Gill, the perennial 'independent' Democratic candidate
(i.e., the state and national parties wouldn't give him any
money and tried to defeat him) is running against Rodney L.
Davis, a shady Republican apparatchik, in a newly-gerrymandered
district. Davis worked for incumbent Rep. John Shimkus (R-IL19).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The New York Times counts the district as leaning Republican.
--CGE</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Jul 31, 2012, at 12:26 AM, John W. <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jbw292002@gmail.com">jbw292002@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
Hasn't Tim Johnson announced that he's not running for
office again? Who is Gill's Republican opponent this time
around? Seems to be we should be more concerned about the
current race than about the actions and motivations of a
lame duck Representative.
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>John Wason</div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 7:43 PM,
C. G. Estabrook <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:cge@shout.net" target="_blank">cge@shout.net</a>></span> wrote:</div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Ricky--<br>
<br>
As was true in Vietnam and Nicaragua, when we're
trying to marshall votes against a criminal war, it's
a bit ridiculous not to accept them if we can't
convince ourselves that they're *really sincere*...<br>
<br>
In fact, Tim Johnson has said that he was wrong to
vote for war in Afghanistan and in Iraq, and since
then he has been a consistent vote against any more
money for war in the Mideast - one of the few in the
House, where 2/3-3/4 continue to support the war. (And
remember there is just one war from Central Asia to
Central Africa, in several "theaters," as Obama says.)<br>
<br>
David Gill on the other hand, even though he now seems
to have said quietly (only on Facebook comments, so
far as I know!) that he would vote as Tim does, has
never admitted that he's changed his position, even
though he originally trumpeted his agreement with
Conservative British MP Rory Stewart about how the
occupation of Afghanistan should proceed.<br>
<br>
Obama mendaciously asserts that he's 'winding down'
the war(s), when in fact he's substantially widening
and intensifying them - more brutally and efficiently
than Bush did. (I had a piece in last Sunday's
News-Gazette about his real war policy.) Hypocrisy
being the tribute vice pays to virtue, Obama misleads
a public, 2/3-3/4 of which think US troops should be
withdrawn.<br>
<br>
My fear is that David will fall into the
administration's arms on this point (see picture) and
say he supports Obama's 'withdrawal.' Johnson's
forthright opposition (whatever his secret heart) to
voting for any more money for war in the Mideast will
be lost.<br>
<br>
So I hope, if David becomes the Congress member for
IL-13, he'll vote on the war as Tim did, but I'm not
convinced he will. To summarize:<br>
<br>
~ Why hasn't he publicly pledged (as Johnson did) to
vote against funds for war in the Middle East?<br>
~ Why hasn't he admitted (as Johnson did) that he's
changed his position on the war (if he has), since he
once espoused Rory Stewart's views?<br>
~ Why hasn't he publicly praised the bipartisan suit
by members of Congress (including Rep. Johnson)
against Obama's obvious violation of the War Powers
Act in Libya (an impeachable offense)?<br>
~ Why hasn't he publicly condemned Obama's murders of
US citizens and children (an impeachable offense)?<br>
~ Why hasn't he publicly condemned Obama's illegal
drone wars in six countries (an impeachable offense)?<br>
<br>
Obviously the most important thing the federal
government does is kill people. Many Americans have
worked for years to convince their elected
representatives to prevent the mass murder carried out
by the Bush & Obama administrations on the excuse
of 9/11. I'd be sorry to replace one of the few
members of Congress who has voted consistently against
it with someone whose position is not so clear.<br>
<br>
Regards, Carl<br>
<br>
PS - I think I can shed some light on the "secret
information ... which justified ... support for [the
invasion of Iraq]" in 2003.<br>
<br>
As the Green party candidate, I ran against Tim for
Congress in 2002. I told him at the time, quite
publicly, that he shouldn't vote for the invasion of
Iraq - but he refused to take a position on the
matter. I met with him and his people just after the
election (which I lost) and told them in even more
detail why the the invasion was both a crime and a
blunder.<br>
<br>
A short time later, the White House invited in a
number of members of Congress, including Tim, to give
them "secret information" that the WH said sealed the
case for war. They told them (I think but cannot
prove) the Niger yellow-cake story, the made-up CIA
yarn about how Saddam Hussein was seeking materials
for a nuclear bomb from Africa. That was the story
that eventually led to Amb. Joseph Wilson's revelation
of its falsity, CIA agent Valerie Plame's outing, and
the conviction of Cheney's chief of staff Scooter
Libby. But it served its purpose with a number of
wavering Congressmembers, and we were able to go back
the traditional American pastime of slaughtering Iraqi
men women, and children. (Remember Clinton was
responsible for a death of about a million of them.)</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Peace-discuss mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a><br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss">http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss">http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></body></html>