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<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>Stuart,</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>I personally think this has been an informative
exchange of opinions about a topic relevant to AWARE and the anti-war topic /
debate in general.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>People who are debating are in fact informing and
it is needed occasionally, especially approaching a national
election.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>People who are debating should not take
differences of opinion personal. As long as someone is not insulting or using
profanity against them.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>I have learned a lot of good info from this
exchange.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>If there are organizing projects then of course it
would not be appropriate to tie up the list with debate like this. That would of
course necessitate seperate lists. A general topic / discussion list and a
working committee list.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>My opinion for what it is
worth.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>David J.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=stuartnlevy@gmail.com href="mailto:stuartnlevy@gmail.com">Stuart
Levy</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=galliher@illinois.edu
href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu">Carl G. Estabrook</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=jbw292002@gmail.com
href="mailto:jbw292002@gmail.com">John W.</A> ; <A title=cge@shout.net
href="mailto:cge@shout.net">C. G. Estabrook</A> ; <A title=rbaldwin@seiu73.org
href="mailto:rbaldwin@seiu73.org">Ricky Baldwin</A> ; <A
title=peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, July 31, 2012 12:56
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Peace-discuss] Fwd:
[cchcc-l] Gov. Quinn Announces State-Federal Partnership Health Exchange</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Please, I agree with Ricky. This kind of wrangling is (a)
why meeting groups have subcommittees, (b) a distraction for AWARE and all the
other groups on this list from any work we should be doing, and (c) far too
much traffic for anyone who isn't retired to attend to. I certainly
don't have time to, and I have to moderate these messages. Please let's
move this discussion either to peace-discuss or (better, if you ask me) to
private messages.<BR><BR>I'm deliberately omitting JwJ and CUCPJ from this
reply. Let's hope others do likewise.<BR><BR>I'd really like to see some
discussion of what AWARE might do about the spin-up to making war on
Syria. Pepe Escobar's article is right on - but what can we do to make
our voices heard? Also, this coming week is the 67th anniversary
of the US bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, at a time when the US is ramping
up its production of *new* nuclear weapons. More of that in
another message when I get a bit more time...<BR><BR>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>On 7/31/12 12:41 PM, Carl G. Estabrook
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:0D6637B1-863D-4ECE-8A6D-57570720E05B@illinois.edu
type="cite">John--
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>David Gill, the perennial 'independent' Democratic candidate (i.e., the
state and national parties wouldn't give him any money and tried to defeat
him) is running against Rodney L. Davis, a shady Republican apparatchik, in
a newly-gerrymandered district. Davis worked for incumbent Rep. John Shimkus
(R-IL19).</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>The New York Times counts the district as leaning Republican.
--CGE</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Jul 31, 2012, at 12:26 AM, John W. <<A
href="mailto:jbw292002@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">jbw292002@gmail.com</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">Hasn't Tim Johnson announced that he's not running
for office again? Who is Gill's Republican opponent this time
around? Seems to be we should be more concerned about the current
race than about the actions and motivations of a lame duck Representative.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>John Wason</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 7:43 PM, C. G. Estabrook
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:cge@shout.net" target=_blank
moz-do-not-send="true">cge@shout.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>Ricky--<BR><BR>As was true in Vietnam and Nicaragua,
when we're trying to marshall votes against a criminal war, it's a bit
ridiculous not to accept them if we can't convince ourselves that
they're *really sincere*...<BR><BR>In fact, Tim Johnson has said that he
was wrong to vote for war in Afghanistan and in Iraq, and since then he
has been a consistent vote against any more money for war in the Mideast
- one of the few in the House, where 2/3-3/4 continue to support the
war. (And remember there is just one war from Central Asia to Central
Africa, in several "theaters," as Obama says.)<BR><BR>David Gill on the
other hand, even though he now seems to have said quietly (only on
Facebook comments, so far as I know!) that he would vote as Tim does,
has never admitted that he's changed his position, even though he
originally trumpeted his agreement with Conservative British MP Rory
Stewart about how the occupation of Afghanistan should
proceed.<BR><BR>Obama mendaciously asserts that he's 'winding down' the
war(s), when in fact he's substantially widening and intensifying them -
more brutally and efficiently than Bush did. (I had a piece in last
Sunday's News-Gazette about his real war policy.) Hypocrisy being the
tribute vice pays to virtue, Obama misleads a public, 2/3-3/4 of which
think US troops should be withdrawn.<BR><BR>My fear is that David will
fall into the administration's arms on this point (see picture) and say
he supports Obama's 'withdrawal.' Johnson's forthright opposition
(whatever his secret heart) to voting for any more money for war in the
Mideast will be lost.<BR><BR>So I hope, if David becomes the Congress
member for IL-13, he'll vote on the war as Tim did, but I'm not
convinced he will. To summarize:<BR><BR>~ Why hasn't he publicly
pledged (as Johnson did) to vote against funds for war in the Middle
East?<BR>~ Why hasn't he admitted (as Johnson did) that he's changed his
position on the war (if he has), since he once espoused Rory Stewart's
views?<BR>~ Why hasn't he publicly praised the bipartisan suit by
members of Congress (including Rep. Johnson) against Obama's obvious
violation of the War Powers Act in Libya (an impeachable offense)?<BR>~
Why hasn't he publicly condemned Obama's murders of US citizens and
children (an impeachable offense)?<BR>~ Why hasn't he publicly condemned
Obama's illegal drone wars in six countries (an impeachable
offense)?<BR><BR>Obviously the most important thing the federal
government does is kill people. Many Americans have worked for years to
convince their elected representatives to prevent the mass murder
carried out by the Bush & Obama administrations on the excuse of
9/11. I'd be sorry to replace one of the few members of Congress who has
voted consistently against it with someone whose position is not so
clear.<BR><BR>Regards, Carl<BR><BR>PS - I think I can shed some light on
the "secret information ... which justified ... support for [the
invasion of Iraq]" in 2003.<BR><BR>As the Green party candidate, I ran
against Tim for Congress in 2002. I told him at the time, quite
publicly, that he shouldn't vote for the invasion of Iraq - but he
refused to take a position on the matter. I met with him and his people
just after the election (which I lost) and told them in even more detail
why the the invasion was both a crime and a blunder.<BR><BR>A short time
later, the White House invited in a number of members of Congress,
including Tim, to give them "secret information" that the WH said sealed
the case for war. They told them (I think but cannot prove) the Niger
yellow-cake story, the made-up CIA yarn about how Saddam Hussein was
seeking materials for a nuclear bomb from Africa. That was the story
that eventually led to Amb. Joseph Wilson's revelation of its falsity,
CIA agent Valerie Plame's outing, and the conviction of Cheney's chief
of staff Scooter Libby. But it served its purpose with a number of
wavering Congressmembers, and we were able to go back the traditional
American pastime of slaughtering Iraqi men women, and children.
(Remember Clinton was responsible for a death of about a million of
them.)</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>Peace-discuss
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