<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><font size="2"><font face="arial">Agree w/ everything you said, Mike... and Dude, you can WRITE!! Yeah, folks correctly faulted evil Madeline Albright for her "collateral damage" remark ... and then the oh so pure of heart and mind on- and off this list do the same. </font><br><br><font face="arial">--- On </font><b style="font-family: arial; ">Mon, 9/3/12, Mike Lehman <i><rebelmike@earthlink.net></i></b><font face="arial"> wrote:</font></font><blockquote style="font-family: arial; font-size: 10pt; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; "><div id="yiv747080238">
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<div class="yiv747080238moz-cite-prefix"><font size="2">Jenifer,<br>
I tend to vote _for_ people, not against them, despite our bogus
democracy often turning on how much crap can be thrown at one or
the other of two poor choices that basically propose doing little
to nothing to alter an abusive, corrupt, and ultimately
illegitimate political-economic system.<br>
<br>
Yes, in Illinois it hardly matters who you vote for individually.,
Obama has the state sewn up. In other states, it doesn't matter,
because they're packed with yahoos struggling to drag us back to
the 19th century -- and hoping Romney will do that. There are
other choices on the ballot, some worth considering in comparison
to One-of-the-Inevitable-Pair. <br>
<br>
And you can always just skip that ballot line entirely, although
that's a bit of a cop-out with the top of the ticket and with
what's at stake for some in how the results turns out. Thus if I
was in a swing state, it would be a tougher choice. I might even
vote for Obama, because I do think he's somewhat less toxic for
the average citizen than Romney. It would really depend on my mood
going in to vote that day, as at least in a swing state there is
what amounts to a choice, as narrow as it might be. For all
Obama's many faults, if one compares him to Romney, most are an
order of magnitude less poisonous than Romney's.<br>
<br>
Iran is a good example. If Romney was president right now, we'd
probably be deeply involved in the mess that unleashing Israel to
do as Netanyahoo wants will bring on. Obama has certainly been an
enabler of the current regime in Tel Aviv, but also a (somewhat)
restraining influence. Will the US turnaround and give Israel the
green light to go ahead and attack Iran, even with Obama?
Possibly, but even that is a faint ray of sunshine in comparison
to the total eclipse of humanity that Romney would facilitate.<br>
<br>
That's just one issue, but we all know there are many more.
Certainly not much basis to vote for Obama, but yes, there is a
difference and one worth considering -- if your vote might be made
in a jurisdiction where it could tip the scales.<br>
<br>
I usually stay out of these arguments, because I don't see them as
worthwhile in changing much. But if I had to pick the time of the
year to be dropped, naked and without food, tools or protection
into the US political wilderness, I'd rather it be in an Obama
spring than a Romney fall. At least with Obama I'd have a chance
to eat, make shelter and figure out how to survive the coming
winter. With Romney, we'll all simply soon freeze to death, which
might be the most humane of the many ways in which a Romney
presidency will abuse most of the population.<br>
Mike Lehman<br>
<br>
On <b>9/3/2012 12:24 AM, Jenifer Cartwright</b> wrote:<br>
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<td style="font:inherit;" valign="top"><font size="2">Excellent post,
Mike, was seconding yr every word until the last bit. Why
won't you be voting for Obama? I'm too scared to do
otherwise. I'm assuming y're an IL resident? Would you
vote for Obama if you lived in e g MO-WI-OH-IN,FL, and if
not, why not? <br>
<br>
--- On <b>Sun, 9/2/12, Mike Lehman <i><a rel="nofollow" class="yiv747080238moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto="mailto:rebelmike@earthlink.net" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=rebelmike@earthlink.net"><rebelmike@earthlink.net></a></i></b>
wrote:</font><blockquote style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16, 16,
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<div class="yiv747080238plainMail"><font size="2">As a historian, in my opinion I
think you're drawing the wrong analogy from 1932. If
Romney wins, it will be as if Hoover won in 1932 --
and then you can hope all you want about the people
having any impact on his greed and lust for power.<br>
<br>
Frankly, I wouldn't take much in the way of political
advice from the NY Times anyway. I read it regularly,
just as I listen to what the president has to say from
time to time. Do I invest in either? Are you
kidding?!?<br>
<br>
Douthat's puppy love for Ryan, the "policy
entrepreneur" kind of makes me want to puke. Serial
greed freak, maybe. Policy presumes it at least
benefits the public and nothing I've seen from Romney
is anything more than the Pig of Greed wearing Sarah
Palin's lipstick.<br>
<br>
Two bad choices? Don't presume that they're equally
bad, which seems to be the point of the argument that
it's no skin off anyone's knee if Romney happens to
manage to buy the presidency this time around. Give
those jerks another shot at packing the Supremes and
Carl will likely be scratching out marks on a prison
wall along with other thought criminals, even though
he and Romney probably do agree on abortion. I've yet
to figure out how folks that claim to believe in small
government want it to be just the size to forcibly fit
in the womb. The present situation, while it may gall
some, at least leaves these decisions to a woman's
conscience, where it should be. I have yet to figure
out how some people seem to talk to god enough to
claim to know what s/he thinks on this matter, which
is likely to be a lot more complicated than a
Republican platform plank.<br>
<br>
Not that I trust Obama more than a cup of warm spit on
much of anything. But there are two possibilities of
who wins in November and I know which one I'd prefer
to have to put up with given that bad hand, even
though I won't be voting for him.<br>
Mike Lehman<br>
<br>
On 9/2/2012 7:02 PM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:<br>
> Ross Douthout has a column in the NYT today in
which he too draws a comparison with 1932:<br>
> <br>
> <<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/02/opinion/sunday/douthat-franklin-delano-romney.html">http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/02/opinion/sunday/douthat-franklin-delano-romney.html</a>>.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On <b>Sep 2, 2012, at 4:29 PM, "Brussel, Morton K"
<<a rel="nofollow">brussel@illinois.edu</a>></b>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
>> On Sep 2, 2012, at 3:52 PM, C. G. Estabrook
wrote:<br>
>> <br>
>>> Although I won't vote for either one of
them, it's not at all clear to me whether a Romney or
an Obama presidency would add more to the sum of human
happiness, since they both profess the same murderous
economic and military policies (for all their efforts
at product differentiation).<br>
>>> <br>
>>> Obama's re-election cannot avoid being
interpreted as approval of those policies (cf. Little
Bush's "political capital" in 2004), while Romney's
election might be seen as their rejection, despite his
protestations.<br>
>>> <br>
>> I think not. If such be the case, it [Obama
winning] will result from a confused guess by the
voting electorate that given the alternatives, Romney
and company would offer less than Obama, while
following basically the same corporate and
imperialistic policies with perhaps even more fervor.
And then there's the race factor, which should not be
minimized.<br>
>>> Perhaps, like FDR in 1932, a victorious
Romney may be driven to reverse his professed
positions, if the popular demand is strong enough.
Politics is in the streets, not the ballot box.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>> In ignorance, there is always room for hope.<br><br>_________________________________________<br>
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