<HTML><HEAD></HEAD>
<BODY dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV>I really do not want to get involved in this discussion; but something
(besides the fact that I received 8 duplicate posts of the same message from
Stan) has triggered my response mechanism. I have two questions to
ask: </DIV>
<DIV>First, I think the statement (“<FONT face=Arial><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 9.6pt">We can defeat them tomorrow by spending our time trying
to build a perfect third party today”)</FONT></FONT> is overly optimistic in
many sense of the term. 1) What evidence do you have that a third party will
result in defeating anyone in the future – much less bring about real policy
changes? 2) When has there ever been a “perfect” third party; and what make you
think that perfection is achievable – never mind any goal of absolute perfection
and settling for partial perfection at a level significantly greater than has
ever existed?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Secondly, since many of the Democratic faithful would never vote Republican
under any circumstances and see “bad” Democratic politicians and officials as
being the lesser of two evils, how do you propose the threat to vote Republican
or even third party to be taken seriously as a real threat by the likes of
Feinstein, Emmanuel, or any other Democratic politician or official? I
remember how Democrats complained about how votes for third party candidate,
Ralph Nader, cost the Democrats a Presidential election and gave it to the
Republicans. Given this sort of response to acting upon one’s threat to
not vote for someone from the Democratic Party, such threats become
meaningless.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=swag901@ymail.com
href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com">Stan Waggoner</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> September 04, 2012 9:37 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=davegreen84@yahoo.com
href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com">David Green</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=peace-discuss@anti-war.net
href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net">peace-discuss@anti-war.net</A> ; <A
title=occupycu@lists.chambana.net
href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net">occupycu@lists.chambana.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] Finkelstein on
Ghandi</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: #000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV><SPAN>There is more of us than them. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>Building
one from scratch means <SPAN id=misspell-0>getting</SPAN> some from them, and
some from us, dividing both parties, and creating a third. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>In
1856 when the Whig party was already dieing that was doable. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>The
easiest way now is to move the Democratic Party further to the left. We do
it a step at a time, not moving mountains a <SPAN
id=misspell-1><SPAN>Boulder</SPAN></SPAN> at a time.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"
class=ms__id38589><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"
class=ms__id38589><SPAN>One final thought. Both Dianne Feinstein and Rahm
Emmanuel want to get re-elected. Without us they can not. They need
to know that. We may be able to defeat them today by voting
Republican. We can defeat them tomorrow by spending our time trying to
build a perfect third party today.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>Stan</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px"
class=hr readonly="true"></DIV><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> David Green
<davegreen84@yahoo.com><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Stan Waggoner <swag901@ymail.com>
<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B>
"peace-discuss@anti-war.net" <peace-discuss@anti-war.net>;
"occupycu@lists.chambana.net" <occupycu@lists.chambana.net> <BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, September 4, 2012 8:22
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [OccupyCU]
Finkelstein on Ghandi<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV id=yiv2024484448>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV><SPAN>If you bother to "take over" the party, then why not just build one
from scratch, or take over one that is not being used. You're talking the party
of Dianne Feinstein and Rahm Emmanuel.</SPAN><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; MARGIN-TOP: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px">
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px"
class=yiv2024484448hr></DIV><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Stan Waggoner
<swag901@ymail.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
David Green <davegreen84@yahoo.com>; "peace-discuss@anti-war.net"
<peace-discuss@anti-war.net>; "occupycu@lists.chambana.net"
<occupycu@lists.chambana.net> <BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, September 4, 2012 8:16
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [OccupyCU]
Finkelstein on Ghandi<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV id=yiv2024484448>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV><SPAN>Ok, so those of us on the left should throw away the organizations
that have gotten the Democratic party where it is, and start building a
"perfect" Democratic Party. HooHaa. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>In
the time it takes to do that, there will be nothing left for the "perfect"
Democratic Party to govern. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>We
need to go to the Democratic Party meetings each month, we need to call in to
the <U>Penny For Your Thoughts</U> show on WDWS, we need to talk to each
person we see, and tell them the truth. Anything less, anything other
(third party), only lets the extreme right (Republican Party) destroy our
country.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>We
need to re-take the Democratic Party for the benefit of the PEOPLE not the
party.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>Stan</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>AKA
Reasonable Man Stan</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>WDWS</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px"
class=yiv2024484448hr></DIV><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> David Green
<davegreen84@yahoo.com><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> "peace-discuss@anti-war.net"
<peace-discuss@anti-war.net>; "occupycu@lists.chambana.net"
<occupycu@lists.chambana.net> <BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, September 4, 2012 9:03
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [OccupyCU]
Finkelstein on Ghandi<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV id=yiv2024484448>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV>http://www.zcommunications.org/gandhi-and-occupy-by-norman-finkelstein</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There is a lot to be learned from Finkelstein's study of Gandhi that is
relevant to tactics being discussed on various local lists. Notice that
elections and voting in our two party system are (tellingly) not even
mentioned. Neither party is mentioned. In my opinion, Republicans promote the
neoliberal agenda by proposing extreme measures. Democrats promote the
neoliberal agenda by proposing compromises with Republicans. This has been a
collective effort for goals that rulers of both parties support. It's worked
pretty well for 36 years, since the campaign of 1976 when Carter was
elected.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There are worthy goals of equality and recognition regarding race,
gender, sexual orientation, immigrants, etc. still to be achieved, obviously.
Unfortunately, these goals are by and large co-opted as a part of Democratic
Party tactics to win votes for their ultimately neoliberal agenda, which
ultimately converts genuine grievances into identity politics<VAR
id=yiv2024484448yui-ie-cursor></VAR>. That is why, even given an understanding
of the historical struggle for voting rights for African-Americans, I'm left
cold by all the attention being devoted to voting rights by the progressive
media. Of course there are legitimate ongoing grievances and Republican
outrages; but ultimately an emphasis on "working within the system" is only to
the advantage of the domianant in a system based on domination.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And don't forget that both parties will try to run to the "right" of each
other regarding foreign policy, especially Israel; ain't nobody gonna get my
Jewish vote.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>David
Green</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>OccupyCU
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:OccupyCU@lists.chambana.net" rel=nofollow
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:OccupyCU@lists.chambana.net">OccupyCU@lists.chambana.net</A><BR>http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/occupycu<BR><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
_______________________________________________<BR>Peace-discuss mailing
list<BR>Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net<BR>http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>