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Perhaps many tire of hearing this from me, but I still accept the idea
that there<br>
will be absolutely no remission of sin without bloodshed. The Sins of
the American people<br>
and their government (of course it's your government, you put them in
office and have sustained them)<br>
will be at some future day called to account. A day of reckoning, if
you will, if you prefer or disdain<br>
such a turn of phrase. Call it Karma or Mount Carmel. Quanbu jiushi
yiyang. <br>
It's all the same thing, sez Gomer Pyle.<br>
<br>
The blood that Obama and his minions are shedding abroad for your
hearts is not an <br>
acceptable sacrifice. You can't scapegoat the Arabs and Afghans, or
persecute the Persians and the Pashtuns for your sins.<br>
It just won't work, and you can raise Cain about it how unfair it is
for your veggies but that blood will cry out from the<br>
ground that something just ain't right.<br>
<br>
As I see it right now there are only two possible ways forward. <br>
<br>
One is for the good people to rise up and slay the prophets of Obamney<br>
and feed the lovely and delightful Killary to the dogs.<br>
<br>
It is unlikely that the pepper-scented cowards of Amerika<br>
will rise up and bite their masters. Many think that whole notion of
a violent overthrow is<br>
nauseating if not just plain undesirable, and would even defend the
rights of their masters to keep<br>
them under bondage.<br>
<br>
The other way is to "invite in" an invading "military force" to do the
"killing". Actually this is far more<br>
likely and seems to be the mode for correcting an empire in decline.
Since the people are unable/unwilling<br>
to sharpen and put in effect their own razor, a hired one will come in
to do the shaving on a contractual<br>
basis so to speak. Joel's army seems to be equipped with some cool
pyrotechnical "entertainment".<br>
<br>
As some miscreant whose name i dont recall wrote about the manifest
destiny without apologies to Pat, <br>
the huns will slip up behind the sleeping amerikans and hit them over
the back of the head with a sock full of shit.<br>
<br>
*<br>
I return you to your vital discussions of the importance of honouring
the desire of those delicate ones on<br>
the "peace" list to keep their eyes well shuttered (lettuce dye a pace
in pace).<br>
<br>
<br>
*****<br>
....Ok.... the guy's name is John Strausbaugh, the book is "Sissy
Nation" and here is an excerpt:<br>
<br>
"....unless we stop acting like such sissies, <br>
soon enough some lean, angry barbarians from somewhere out Beyond
Fundadome <br>
are going to overrun us, ramming their bayonets in our lard guts <br>
like fingers poking the Pillsbury Doughboy, only we won't be giggling.”<br>
<br>
***<br>
Well, Raggedy-man. Ain't we a pair.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 9/6/2012 7:38 AM, LAURIE wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:BAY169-DS17B615D824B0278694CEDBBDA90@phx.gbl"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
style="font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div>Ok, I only got two copies of this message instead of the 8
copies I got the last time (but I will give it time to see if the other
6 copies show up). I realize that this problem may not be an issue
that stems from your end (but in some cases it could be if one cc’s
other forums and groups as well as the various individuals that the
post is replying to).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Second, I agree with you that the Democratic Party is first and
foremost an establishment party just like the Republican Party ( they
are both bought and sold by the establishment which is made up of both
public and private bureaucracies in public and private organizations
and business enterprises who have a vested interest in maintaining the
status quo or the illusion of the status quo, fantasies and myths about
the “good old days,”the virtues of hard work and self-made people, and
notions of equity (if not equality) in which everyone gets what they
earn and deserve through honest free competition and markets, etc. The
so-called left-wing progressives in the Democratic Party resemble
moderate Eisenhower Republicans and those Democrats that call
themselves centralists look and ac t more like Goodwater
Conservatives. This makes the Democratic Party resemble the Reagan
Republican Party as you suggest.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>However, while your statement may have been intended as
tongue-in-cheek; there are many who do hold the optimistic (if not
utopian) view that a perfect or near-perfect third party can be
established and that it will not be coopted by the practical realities
of our political process and out society so as to become a substitute
for or replacement of the current establishment political parties or
just a new addition political party of the same type as the existing
ones. This almost as pervasive as the optimistic myth that “the
American People” or a large majority of the “99%” actually want and
support what the “liberals” and “progressive” activists say that they
do and who they claim to represent. If this were the case, even with
extensive mass media propaganda and big budget expenditures of the
corporate establishment and the 1%, of the “American People” and/or the
majority of the “99%” would not be electing time after time and
election after election the people that they do for public office.
They would not be continually fooled into believing the media, the
politicians, corporate establishment or any of their generalized and
content-free promises. Similarly, I think that notions of working from
the inside of any organization is not only a fool’s errand but overly
optimistic. Minor peripheral reforms might be possible; but major
systemic changes are not. They typically come from outside the
organization. In the case of such animals as the political parties,
their members constitute a captured audience in that they have no
options but to belong to, support, and participate in the party
organizations that they identify with and belong to. They operate
under the premise that their party of choice is the lesser of two evils
and better to have your evil people in power than the other party’s
people. Thus, if they become dissatisfied, they do not leave their
party and join the other one – except in the rarest of cases.
Instead,, they are more likely to either drop out of the party and
become cynical and apathetic or drop out of involvement with the
political process totally in favor of going along silently with what
ever happens in order to get along with the least practical immediate
trouble to themselves and their family and friends. </div>
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<div> </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(245, 245, 245) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">
<div style=""><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="swag901@ymail.com" href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com">Stan Waggoner</a>
</div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 05, 2012 5:41 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="ls1000@live.com"
href="mailto:ls1000@live.com">Laurie Solomon</a> </div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] Finkelstein on
Ghandi</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div
style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">
<div
style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div><span></span></div>
<div><span>First, I apologize for any duplicate emails you may have
received. I promise I only hit send once. Gremlins I guess.</span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"
class="ms__id26139"><span></span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"
class="ms__id26140"><span>Second, my post was intended to be a little
tongue in <span id="misspell-0"><span>cheek</span></span>. Building a
third party at this juncture of corporate spending on elections is, I
think, a fools mission. Therefore, the only choice that makes any sense
to me is to move the Democratic Party further left, as the Republican
party has been moved to the right by the corporations. </span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"
class="ms__id26141"><span></span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"
class="ms__id26142"><span>The Democratic Party of today looks more
like the Republican Party of Reagan than I would like.</span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"
class="ms__id25390 ms__id26143"><span></span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"
class="ms__id25390 ms__id26144"><span>Stan</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div
style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2"><b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Laurie Solomon
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ls1000@live.com"><ls1000@live.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Stan Waggoner
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com"><swag901@ymail.com></a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> peace-discuss
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"><peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net></a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday,
September 5, 2012 1:57 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] Finkelstein on Ghandi<br>
</font></div>
<br>
<meta content="off" http-equiv="x-dns-prefetch-control">
<div id="yiv1304673585">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
style="font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div>I really do not want to get involved in this discussion; but
something (besides the fact that I received 8 duplicate posts of the
same message from Stan) has triggered my response mechanism. I have
two questions to ask: </div>
<div>First, I think the statement (“<font face="Arial"><font
style="font-size: 9.6pt;">We can defeat them tomorrow by spending our
time trying to build a perfect third party today”)</font></font> is
overly optimistic in many sense of the term. 1) What evidence do you
have that a third party will result in defeating anyone in the future –
much less bring about real policy changes? 2) When has there ever been
a “perfect” third party; and what make you think that perfection is
achievable – never mind any goal of absolute perfection and settling
for partial perfection at a level significantly greater than has ever
existed?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Secondly, since many of the Democratic faithful would never vote
Republican under any circumstances and see “bad” Democratic politicians
and officials as being the lesser of two evils, how do you propose the
threat to vote Republican or even third party to be taken seriously as
a real threat by the likes of Feinstein, Emmanuel, or any other
Democratic politician or official? I remember how Democrats complained
about how votes for third party candidate, Ralph Nader, cost the
Democrats a Presidential election and gave it to the Republicans.
Given this sort of response to acting upon one’s threat to not vote for
someone from the Democratic Party, such threats become meaningless.</div>
<div> </div>
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style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">
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style="font-family: tahoma; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; -x-system-font: none; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
<div> </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(245, 245, 245) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">
<div><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="swag901@ymail.com"
href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
ymailto="mailto:swag901@ymail.com">Stan Waggoner</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> September 04, 2012 9:37 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="davegreen84@yahoo.com" href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com"
rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com">David
Green</a> </div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="peace-discuss@anti-war.net"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net">peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>
; <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="occupycu@lists.chambana.net"
href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net">occupycu@lists.chambana.net</a>
</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] Finkelstein on
Ghandi</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div
style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">
<div
style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div><span>There is more of us than them. </span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>Building
one from scratch means <span id="yiv1304673585misspell-0">getting</span>
some from them, and some from us, dividing both parties, and creating a
third. </span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>In
1856 when the Whig party was already dieing that was doable. </span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>The
easiest way now is to move the Democratic Party further to the left.
We do it a step at a time, not moving mountains a <span
id="yiv1304673585misspell-1"><span>Boulder</span></span> at a time.</span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"
class="yiv1304673585ms__id38589"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"
class="yiv1304673585ms__id38589"><span>One final thought. Both Dianne
Feinstein and Rahm Emmanuel want to get re-elected. Without us they
can not. They need to know that. We may be able to defeat them today
by voting Republican. We can defeat them tomorrow by spending our time
trying to build a perfect third party today.</span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>Stan</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div
style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2"><b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> David Green
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com"><davegreen84@yahoo.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Stan Waggoner
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com"><swag901@ymail.com></a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net">"peace-discuss@anti-war.net"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net"><peace-discuss@anti-war.net></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net">"occupycu@lists.chambana.net"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net"><occupycu@lists.chambana.net></a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday,
September 4, 2012 8:22 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[OccupyCU] Finkelstein on Ghandi<br>
</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div id="yiv1304673585">
<div>
<div
style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div><span>If you bother to "take over" the party, then why not just
build one from scratch, or take over one that is not being used. You're
talking the party of Dianne Feinstein and Rahm Emmanuel.</span><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">
<div
style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div
style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2"> <b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Stan Waggoner
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com"><swag901@ymail.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> David Green
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com"><davegreen84@yahoo.com></a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net">"peace-discuss@anti-war.net"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net"><peace-discuss@anti-war.net></a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net">"occupycu@lists.chambana.net"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net"><occupycu@lists.chambana.net></a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday,
September 4, 2012 8:16 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[OccupyCU] Finkelstein on Ghandi<br>
</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div id="yiv1304673585">
<div>
<div
style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div><span>Ok, so those of us on the left should throw away the
organizations that have gotten the Democratic party where it is, and
start building a "perfect" Democratic Party. HooHaa. </span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>In
the time it takes to do that, there will be nothing left for the
"perfect" Democratic Party to govern. </span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>We
need to go to the Democratic Party meetings each month, we need to call
in to the <u>Penny For Your Thoughts</u> show on WDWS, we need to talk
to each person we see, and tell them the truth. Anything less,
anything other (third party), only lets the extreme right (Republican
Party) destroy our country.</span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>We
need to re-take the Democratic Party for the benefit of the PEOPLE not
the party.</span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>Stan</span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>AKA
Reasonable Man Stan</span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>WDWS</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div
style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2"> <b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> David Green
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com"><davegreen84@yahoo.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net">"peace-discuss@anti-war.net"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net"><peace-discuss@anti-war.net></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net">"occupycu@lists.chambana.net"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net"><occupycu@lists.chambana.net></a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday,
September 4, 2012 9:03 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> [OccupyCU]
Finkelstein on Ghandi<br>
</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div id="yiv1304673585">
<div>
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<div><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.zcommunications.org/gandhi-and-occupy-by-norman-finkelstein">http://www.zcommunications.org/gandhi-and-occupy-by-norman-finkelstein</a></div>
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<div>There is a lot to be learned from Finkelstein's study of
Gandhi that is relevant to tactics being discussed on various local
lists. Notice that elections and voting in our two party system are
(tellingly) not even mentioned. Neither party is mentioned. In my
opinion, Republicans promote the neoliberal agenda by proposing extreme
measures. Democrats promote the neoliberal agenda by proposing
compromises with Republicans. This has been a collective effort for
goals that rulers of both parties support. It's worked pretty well for
36 years, since the campaign of 1976 when Carter was elected.</div>
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<div>There are worthy goals of equality and recognition regarding
race, gender, sexual orientation, immigrants, etc. still to be
achieved, obviously. Unfortunately, these goals are by and large
co-opted as a part of Democratic Party tactics to win votes for their
ultimately neoliberal agenda, which ultimately converts genuine
grievances into identity politics<var id="yiv1304673585yui-ie-cursor"></var>.
That is why, even given an understanding of the historical struggle for
voting rights for African-Americans, I'm left cold by all the attention
being devoted to voting rights by the progressive media. Of course
there are legitimate ongoing grievances and Republican outrages; but
ultimately an emphasis on "working within the system" is only to the
advantage of the domianant in a system based on domination.</div>
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<div>And don't forget that both parties will try to run to the
"right" of each other regarding foreign policy, especially Israel;
ain't nobody gonna get my Jewish vote.</div>
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<div>David Green</div>
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