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<DIV>Ok Wayne, you might be right about your references being more
meaningful and better known in days of yore; but we are not in those days
anymore so the references tend to make it difficult to read your posts and cut
to the point much of the time for those of us who do not live in the days of
yore or bath in the exotic.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>To be honest with you, I am not sure if I agree or disagree with your
second paragraph since I am not sure if you are talking about the masses in the
past or the masses of today. I was only suggesting that it was easier and
more feasible for the masses of yore to rise up and slay the existing
establishment than it is today; I did not intend for it to be interpreted as
saying that they did so with any frequency or engaged in such activity for any
long duration. I fully recognize that their resources, energy, time,
and skills were disproportionately less than that of the establishment of their
day as is the case to an even greater degree today. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>What was different and made it potentially easier and possibly more
feasible was the fact that society was agrarian and rural and not urban and
industrial or post-industrial. This meant that each community was more
isolated from one another and any central authority than is the case today, were
less interdependent on each other and more autonomous & self-sustaining than
is the case today, and had less efficient means of transportation,
communications and control than exists today. The individuals were more
independent and self-reliant for their sustenance and welfare than is the case
today; and they deal on an personal face-to-face level with other individuals
instead of anonymously and impersonally nameless, faceless bureaucrats from
large international corporate organizations. The weaponry and technology was
less sophisticated, pervasive, intrusive, and precise as well as less
destructive on a massive scale as it is in contemporary society. Thus
successful resistance and revolt in days of yore had a more viable possibility
than it does now; but again, that does not mean that it was readily undertaken
in actuality.</DIV>
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<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=ewj@pigsqq.org
href="mailto:ewj@pigsqq.org">E. Wayne Johnson</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> September 06, 2012 7:38 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=ls1000@live.com href="mailto:ls1000@live.com">Laurie
Solomon</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] Finkelstein on
Ghandi</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">In
days of yore it was likely that my seemingly obscure references were well
known.<BR><BR>It is unlikely that the masses rise up and slay the establishment
even though<BR>that would likely have a more desirable outcome than the more
likely <BR>collapse, breach, and imposition scenario. It wont be short but
certainly nasty<BR>and brutish if one keeps track.<BR><BR><BR>On 9/7/2012 1:10
AM, Laurie Solomon wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:BAY169-DS2C266FDD4764615B65A6CBDA80@phx.gbl type="cite">
<META content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv=Context-Type>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Skipping all the flowery and obscure bullshit that you always force your
readers to wade through and if I read you correctly, I think that you are
making a distinction between two tactics to achieve the same strategy. I
can really care less about the two tactics and the differences between them;
but I do agree with you as to there being only one strategy – and that is for
the people to rise up and strike back (as you put it), independent of how they
do it. That has been in the past and is now in the present the only way
to create significant substantive systemic change – everything else is
merely peripheral reforms of the existing system and practices – not radical
change of the existing system and practices. You say, “As I see it right
now there are only two possible ways forward....”; I say that you may just
come to this insight right now but that has always been the case. I
would only add that there may be more tactical ways then you suggest but they
all involve the same thing – a population that rises up and slays the
establishment. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This, of course, might have been easier and more feasible in days of yore
than it is in contemporary times; and we both know that is is never going to
happen in Amerika unless the system totally collapses under its own weight or
because of forces and disasters imposed from outside over which it has no
control. Unfortunately, as current trends illustrate, even then the
radical change will be toward a Hobbesian state of a “war of all against all”
in which “life is nasty, brutish, and short.” Even then, politics will
be no more than a circulation of elites in which the established elites will
work to insure that they stay in power and on top, although they will have to
be
<DIV>constantly on their guard against revolutions that bring a new set of
competing elites into power with a new set of policies to support and serve
their vested interests and survival. </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=ewj@pigsqq.org href="mailto:ewj@pigsqq.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">E. Wayne Johnson</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> September 05, 2012 8:09 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=LS1000@LIVE.COM href="mailto:LS1000@LIVE.COM"
moz-do-not-send="true">LAURIE</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=swag901@ymail.com href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">Stan Waggoner</A> ; <A
title=peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">peace-discuss</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] Finkelstein on
Ghandi</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Perhaps many tire of hearing this from me, but I still accept the idea
that there<BR>will be absolutely no remission of sin without bloodshed.
The Sins of the American people<BR>and their government (of course it's your
government, you put them in office and have sustained them)<BR>will be at some
future day called to account. A day of reckoning, if you will, if you
prefer or disdain<BR>such a turn of phrase. Call it Karma or Mount
Carmel. Quanbu jiushi yiyang. <BR>It's all the same thing, sez
Gomer Pyle.<BR><BR>The blood that Obama and his minions are shedding abroad
for your hearts is not an <BR>acceptable sacrifice. You can't scapegoat
the Arabs and Afghans, or persecute the Persians and the Pashtuns for your
sins.<BR>It just won't work, and you can raise Cain about it how unfair it is
for your veggies but that blood will cry out from the<BR>ground that something
just ain't right.<BR><BR>As I see it right now there are only two possible
ways forward. <BR><BR>One is for the good people to rise up and slay the
prophets of Obamney<BR>and feed the lovely and delightful Killary to the
dogs.<BR><BR>It is unlikely that the pepper-scented cowards of Amerika<BR>will
rise up and bite their masters. Many think that whole notion of a
violent overthrow is<BR>nauseating if not just plain undesirable, and would
even defend the rights of their masters to keep<BR>them under
bondage.<BR><BR>The other way is to "invite in" an invading "military force"
to do the "killing". Actually this is far more<BR>likely and seems to be
the mode for correcting an empire in decline. Since the people are
unable/unwilling<BR>to sharpen and put in effect their own razor, a hired one
will come in to do the shaving on a contractual<BR>basis so to speak.
Joel's army seems to be equipped with some cool pyrotechnical
"entertainment".<BR><BR>As some miscreant whose name i dont recall wrote about
the manifest destiny without apologies to Pat, <BR>the huns will slip up
behind the sleeping amerikans and hit them over the back of the head with a
sock full of shit.<BR><BR>*<BR>I return you to your vital discussions of the
importance of honouring the desire of those delicate ones on<BR>the "peace"
list to keep their eyes well shuttered (lettuce dye a pace in
pace).<BR><BR><BR>*****<BR>....Ok.... the guy's name is John Strausbaugh, the
book is "Sissy Nation" and here is an excerpt:<BR><BR>"....unless we stop
acting like such sissies, <BR>soon enough some lean, angry barbarians from
somewhere out Beyond Fundadome <BR>are going to overrun us, ramming their
bayonets in our lard guts <BR>like fingers poking the Pillsbury Doughboy, only
we won't be giggling.”<BR><BR>***<BR>Well, Raggedy-man. Ain't we a
pair.<BR><BR><BR><BR>On 9/6/2012 7:38 AM, LAURIE wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:BAY169-DS17B615D824B0278694CEDBBDA90@phx.gbl
type="cite"><DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Ok, I only got two copies of this message instead of the 8 copies I got
the last time (but I will give it time to see if the other 6 copies show
up). I realize that this problem may not be an issue that stems from
your end (but in some cases it could be if one cc’s other forums and groups
as well as the various individuals that the post is replying to).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Second, I agree with you that the Democratic Party is first and
foremost an establishment party just like the Republican Party ( they are
both bought and sold by the establishment which is made up of both public
and private bureaucracies in public and private organizations and business
enterprises who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo or the
illusion of the status quo, fantasies and myths about the “good old
days,”the virtues of hard work and self-made people, and notions of equity
(if not equality) in which everyone gets what they earn and deserve through
honest free competition and markets, etc. The so-called left-wing
progressives in the Democratic Party resemble moderate Eisenhower
Republicans and those Democrats that call themselves centralists look and ac
t more like Goodwater Conservatives. This makes the Democratic Party
resemble the Reagan Republican Party as you suggest.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>However, while your statement may have been intended as
tongue-in-cheek; there are many who do hold the optimistic (if not utopian)
view that a perfect or near-perfect third party can be established and that
it will not be coopted by the practical realities of our political process
and out society so as to become a substitute for or replacement of the
current establishment political parties or just a new addition political
party of the same type as the existing ones. This almost as pervasive as the
optimistic myth that “the American People” or a large majority of the “99%”
actually want and support what the “liberals” and “progressive” activists
say that they do and who they claim to represent. If this were the
case, even with extensive mass media propaganda and big budget expenditures
of the corporate establishment and the 1%, of the “American People” and/or
the majority of the “99%” would not be electing time after time and
election after election the people that they do for public office.
They would not be continually fooled into believing the media, the
politicians, corporate establishment or any of their generalized and
content-free promises. Similarly, I think that notions of working from the
inside of any organization is not only a fool’s errand but overly
optimistic. Minor peripheral reforms might be possible; but major
systemic changes are not. They typically come from outside the
organization. In the case of such animals as the political parties,
their members constitute a captured audience in that they have no options
but to belong to, support, and participate in the party organizations that
they identify with and belong to. They operate under the premise that
their party of choice is the lesser of two evils and better to have your
evil people in power than the other party’s people. Thus, if they
become dissatisfied, they do not leave their party and join the other one –
except in the rarest of cases. Instead,, they are more likely to
either drop out of the party and become cynical and apathetic or drop out of
involvement with the political process totally in favor of going along
silently with what ever happens in order to get along with the least
practical immediate trouble to themselves and their family and
friends. </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=swag901@ymail.com href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">Stan Waggoner</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 05, 2012 5:41 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=ls1000@live.com href="mailto:ls1000@live.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">Laurie Solomon</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">peace-discuss</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] Finkelstein on
Ghandi</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>First, I apologize for any duplicate emails you may have
received. I promise I only hit send once. Gremlins I guess.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>Second, my post was intended to be a little tongue in
<SPAN><SPAN>cheek</SPAN></SPAN>. Building a third party at this juncture of
corporate spending on elections is, I think, a fools mission. Therefore, the
only choice that makes any sense to me is to move the Democratic Party
further left, as the Republican party has been moved to the right by the
corporations. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>The Democratic Party of today looks more like the Republican
Party of Reagan than I would like.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>Stan</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><B><SPAN>From:</SPAN></B> Laurie Solomon <A
href="mailto:ls1000@live.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:ls1000@live.com</A><BR><B><SPAN>To:</SPAN></B>
Stan Waggoner <A href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:swag901@ymail.com</A>
<BR><B><SPAN>Cc:</SPAN></B> peace-discuss <A
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</A>
<BR><B><SPAN>Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, September 5, 2012 1:57
PM<BR><B><SPAN>Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU]
Finkelstein on Ghandi<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>I really do not want to get involved in this discussion; but something
(besides the fact that I received 8 duplicate posts of the same message from
Stan) has triggered my response mechanism. I have two questions to
ask: </DIV>
<DIV>First, I think the statement (“ We can defeat them tomorrow by spending
our time trying to build a perfect third party today”) is overly optimistic
in many sense of the term. 1) What evidence do you have that a third party
will result in defeating anyone in the future – much less bring about real
policy changes? 2) When has there ever been a “perfect” third party; and
what make you think that perfection is achievable – never mind any goal of
absolute perfection and settling for partial perfection at a level
significantly greater than has ever existed?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Secondly, since many of the Democratic faithful would never vote
Republican under any circumstances and see “bad” Democratic politicians and
officials as being the lesser of two evils, how do you propose the threat to
vote Republican or even third party to be taken seriously as a real threat
by the likes of Feinstein, Emmanuel, or any other Democratic politician or
official? I remember how Democrats complained about how votes for
third party candidate, Ralph Nader, cost the Democrats a Presidential
election and gave it to the Republicans. Given this sort of response
to acting upon one’s threat to not vote for someone from the Democratic
Party, such threats become meaningless.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=swag901@ymail.com href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">Stan Waggoner</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> September 04, 2012 9:37 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=davegreen84@yahoo.com
href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com" moz-do-not-send="true">David Green</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=peace-discuss@anti-war.net
href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">peace-discuss@anti-war.net</A> ; <A
title=occupycu@lists.chambana.net href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">occupycu@lists.chambana.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] Finkelstein on
Ghandi</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>There is more of us than them. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>Building one from scratch means <SPAN>getting</SPAN> some from
them, and some from us, dividing both parties, and creating a third.
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>In 1856 when the Whig party was already dieing that was
doable. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>The easiest way now is to move the Democratic Party further to
the left. We do it a step at a time, not moving mountains a
<SPAN><SPAN>Boulder</SPAN></SPAN> at a time.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>One final thought. Both Dianne Feinstein and Rahm Emmanuel
want to get re-elected. Without us they can not. They need to
know that. We may be able to defeat them today by voting
Republican. We can defeat them tomorrow by spending our time trying to
build a perfect third party today.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>Stan</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><B><SPAN>From:</SPAN></B> David Green <A
href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com</A><BR><B><SPAN>To:</SPAN></B>
Stan Waggoner <A href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:swag901@ymail.com</A>
<BR><B><SPAN>Cc:</SPAN></B> <A href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net</A> <A
href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net</A>; <A
href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net</A> <A
href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net</A>
<BR><B><SPAN>Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, September 4, 2012 8:22
PM<BR><B><SPAN>Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [OccupyCU] Finkelstein on
Ghandi<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>If you bother to "take over" the party, then why not just build
one from scratch, or take over one that is not being used. You're talking
the party of Dianne Feinstein and Rahm Emmanuel.</SPAN><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><B><SPAN>From:</SPAN></B> Stan Waggoner <A
href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:swag901@ymail.com</A><BR><B><SPAN>To:</SPAN></B>
David Green <A href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com</A>; <A
href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net</A> <A
href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net</A>; <A
href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net</A> <A
href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net</A>
<BR><B><SPAN>Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, September 4, 2012 8:16
PM<BR><B><SPAN>Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [OccupyCU] Finkelstein on
Ghandi<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>Ok, so those of us on the left should throw away the
organizations that have gotten the Democratic party where it is, and start
building a "perfect" Democratic Party. HooHaa. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>In the time it takes to do that, there will be nothing left for
the "perfect" Democratic Party to govern. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>We need to go to the Democratic Party meetings each month, we
need to call in to the Penny For Your Thoughts show on WDWS, we need to
talk to each person we see, and tell them the truth. Anything less,
anything other (third party), only lets the extreme right (Republican
Party) destroy our country.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>We need to re-take the Democratic Party for the benefit of the
PEOPLE not the party.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>Stan</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>AKA Reasonable Man Stan</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>WDWS</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><B><SPAN>From:</SPAN></B> David Green <A
href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com</A><BR><B><SPAN>To:</SPAN></B>
<A href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net</A> <A
href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net</A>; <A
href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net</A> <A
href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net</A>
<BR><B><SPAN>Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, September 4, 2012 9:03
AM<BR><B><SPAN>Subject:</SPAN></B> [OccupyCU] Finkelstein on
Ghandi<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><A
href="http://www.zcommunications.org/gandhi-and-occupy-by-norman-finkelstein"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.zcommunications.org/gandhi-and-occupy-by-norman-finkelstein</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There is a lot to be learned from Finkelstein's study of Gandhi that
is relevant to tactics being discussed on various local lists. Notice that
elections and voting in our two party system are (tellingly) not even
mentioned. Neither party is mentioned. In my opinion, Republicans promote
the neoliberal agenda by proposing extreme measures. Democrats promote the
neoliberal agenda by proposing compromises with Republicans. This has been
a collective effort for goals that rulers of both parties support. It's
worked pretty well for 36 years, since the campaign of 1976 when Carter
was elected.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There are worthy goals of equality and recognition regarding race,
gender, sexual orientation, immigrants, etc. still to be achieved,
obviously. Unfortunately, these goals are by and large co-opted as a part
of Democratic Party tactics to win votes for their ultimately neoliberal
agenda, which ultimately converts genuine grievances into identity
politics<VAR></VAR>. That is why, even given an understanding of the
historical struggle for voting rights for African-Americans, I'm left cold
by all the attention being devoted to voting rights by the progressive
media. Of course there are legitimate ongoing grievances and Republican
outrages; but ultimately an emphasis on "working within the system" is
only to the advantage of the domianant in a system based on
domination.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And don't forget that both parties will try to run to the "right" of
each other regarding foreign policy, especially Israel; ain't nobody gonna
get my Jewish vote.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>David
Green</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>OccupyCU
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:OccupyCU@lists.chambana.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">OccupyCU@lists.chambana.net</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/occupycu"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/occupycu</A><BR><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>Peace-discuss
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</A><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>Peace-discuss
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