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<DIV>> <SPAN><FONT face=Arial><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 9.6pt">If working from
within were a fools errand, then we have the fools in the religious right to
thank for today's Republican Party, IMHO.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial>I will not argue with you that the religious right
is composed of fools; but I do not agree with you that their working from within
the Republican Party has brought about the current Republican Party. That
they have always been in the Republican party is not what I question; nor is the
fact that they have been dominant off and on from time to time (particularly in
hard economic times, times when the WASP values and interests were being
challenged, and times when racial and ethnic superiority and authority were
being challenged) something to be questioned. However, I do question that
they alone via working within the party have been effective in gaining control
and setting the policies and positions of the current Republican Party.
That they have gained control and exerted influence over Party policies and
practices is in no small measure fueled by external sources (i.e., global
uncertainty and domestic insecurity, the state of the economy, the rapid
increase in population size of minorities vis-à-vis the majority white
population, the rise of external organizations such as the Tea Party & other
right-wing militias and libertarian groups, etc.). In point of fact, many
of the so-called 1% corporate captains of industry that have always controlled
the Party and its policies held many of the same views and inclinations as those
on in the religious right who are now more visible and vocal; but circumstances
did not warrant their “coming out” so to speak since they already had formally
or informally in place the practices and policies that they were
advocating. WASPs controlled the country, minorities (racial and
ethnic) were tacitly and informally kept under the thumb of the White power
structure, Christianity – if not Protestantism – was the defacto religion of the
country, immigration was tightly restricted when it came to non-Europeans, and
gays remained closeted. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial>><SPAN><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 9.6pt">After the
failure of the Goldwater folks, It was only 4 years before the more moderate
Republicans were able to get Nixon elected. </FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial><SPAN>Ironically, it was Goldwater who feared and
warned about the religious right and its involvement in politics and the
Republican Party. Who says that it was the more moderate Republicans who
got Nixon nominated and/or elected. You cannot be saying that Nixon was a
moderate or did not have right-wing religious inclinations. Yes, he was a
little more prudent, sophisticated, and pragmatic than today’s Republicans; but
was that anything but a façade. For the most part, the changes in both
parties reflect the changes in Amerikan society. Up until the Viet Nam
war, the culture and ideology of Amerika was more or less homogeneous; with the
Viet Nam war and after, it has become more diverse and contentious. Thus, while
prior to Viet Nam, what I will call “gentleman” politics where the opponents
were civil and willing to compromise was practiced for the most part; after Viet
Nam, politics in Amerika grew up in a sense and became like the rest of the
world where politics became ideological, lacking in civility, and
uncompromising. The main difference between Amerika and the other
countries in the world is that the other countries employ a parlimentary system
in which a winner takes all criteria does not exist and compromise and/or
coalitions are practiced unlike the U.S. where minority parties and positions
are not given proportional representation in the legislatures or the main
political parties. The main parties in the U.S have sought to be umbrella
parties who try to appear as if they are pragmatically taking centrist positions
and putting forth majority positions and candidates – even when they obviously
are not really either umbrellas or centrist when one looks under the
hood.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial><SPAN>><SPAN><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 9.6pt">I do
not believe that the 99%<SPAN id=misspell-1 class=mark>ers</SPAN> are some sort
of monolithic group that all think the same way. Politics is a little like
religion in that you have to BELIEVE to be a devout follower of either party,
and willing to not only vote against your >personal best interest, but the
best interest of the country.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial><SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial><SPAN><SPAN>Good; but some people seem to thinks or
that a majority of the 99%ers think the same way, support the same things,
or have the same or similar interests. Like all general categories, they
make oversimplified distinctions while ignoring substantive details. So
you will agree that some of the 99%ers – and possibly a majority of them,
although we have know way of knowing what portion of this category support or
believe what – may actually support (1) the candidates, parties, and policies of
the Republican Party;(2) the values, policies, and beliefs of the Tea Party; the
views and practices of the religious right or other extremist groups; and or the
positions and behaviors of the corporate establishment and/or the 1%. You
will agree that many – if not a majority of the 99% may have vested interests
that are different from those suggested by the Occupy movement and might even
oppose that movement and their positions. You will also agree that it is
possible that a large number of the 99%ers may even hold racist views, ethnic
and gender biases, be anti-gay and/or anti immigrant, support various law
enforcement and home security tactics and measures, and/or back national defense
and foreign policies that have been recently instituted or currently
exist.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial><SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial><SPAN><SPAN>Yes politics is more than a little like
religion in that you have to BELIEVE (i.e. be more or less a “true believer”) to
be a devout follower of either party; but this in itself typically means that
you are willing to vote against your own personal interests and/or the interests
of the country but are not willing to vote against your political party and its
candidates for almost any reason – a “my party and its candidates, platforms,
and policies right or wrong” attitude. Thus, most of those who engage in
politics as active or passive participants tend to be blind followers and those
who merely observe or act a detached actors usually are cynical and complain but
neither very seriously active nor without serious cases of apathy. Given
what you say, how can you put any faith insiders bringing about change from
inside their political parties. Especially since both major parties have
become vehicles of corporate & labor bureaucratic organizational
establishment, have adapted to the current cultural-technological-and economic
societal environment and conditions.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial><SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial><SPAN><SPAN>As for outside sources of change like
the Occupy movement, They suggest or, on occasion, claim claim to represent the
interests of the 99%; but as you suggest, the 99% do not all have the same or
even similar interests, beliefs, or values. Moreover, we have no idea what
proportion of the 99%ers support what independent of what spokes people in the
Occupy movement claim or suggest. Nor do we know what the nature or
strength of commitment the various categories of members or alleged members have
with respect to movement activism and support when it comes to generating
resources, giving time and energy, or taking risks. So at best, this
movement may furnish a long range – if it lasts that long – amorphous pressure
group for change in both the political and economic culture as well as in the
political system and the political parties; but more than likely their positions
will be absorbed and coopted by the parties and the system so as to result in
insignificant symbolic reforms – mostly in language and platforms but not in
actual action, practices, or policies – as has happened so often in the past
with third parties and pressure groups and
movements.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial><SPAN><SPAN></SPAN>
</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=swag901@ymail.com
href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com">Stan Waggoner</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> September 06, 2012 9:20 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=LS1000@LIVE.COM
href="mailto:LS1000@LIVE.COM">LAURIE</A> ; <A
title=peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] Finkelstein on
Ghandi</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: #000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV><SPAN>Laurie,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>If
working from within were a fools errand, then we have the fools in the religious
right to thank for today's Republican Party, IMHO.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>After
the failure of the Goldwater folks, It was only 4 years before the more moderate
Republicans were able to get Nixon elected. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>Then
there is the Carter situation. The Baptist Church thought the election of
Carter would give them a seat of power. Carter rejected their desire to
take over our government. So the religious right took over the Republican
Party one step at a time, and now we have what we have <SPAN id=misspell-0
class=mark>WRT</SPAN> the Republicans. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>I
do not believe that the 99%<SPAN id=misspell-1 class=mark>ers</SPAN> are some
sort of monolithic group that all think the same way. Politics is a little
like religion in that you have to BELIEVE to be a devout follower of either
party, and willing to not only vote against your personal best interest, but the
best interest of the country.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>One
step at a time the Democratic party can be moved to the left. We just have
to do the hard work of getting people that can be elected thinking the right
way. The veil of my "church" right or wrong must be torn down. The
veil of my country, right or wrong must be replaced with standards that all
countries must follow. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>We
have allowed the Republicans for too long to be the party of "believers", while
liberals keep searching for a new direction. Last week it was anti-war,
this week it is anti-corporation. The easiest place to put both of these
groups, and all the other splinters, together is under an existing
organization's umbrella. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>As
long as we are a bunch of scattered idealists, we will have no power.
Without power, we can not save our country.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px"
class=hr readonly="true"></DIV><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> LAURIE
<LS1000@LIVE.COM><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
Stan Waggoner <swag901@ymail.com>; peace-discuss
<peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net> <BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, September 5, 2012 6:38
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Peace-discuss]
[<SPAN id=misspell-3 class=mark>OccupyCU</SPAN>] <SPAN id=misspell-4
class=mark>Finkelstein</SPAN> on <SPAN id=misspell-5
class=mark>Ghandi</SPAN><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV id=yiv1594626217>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV><SPAN id=misspell-6 class=mark>Ok</SPAN>, I only got two copies of this
message instead of the 8 copies I got the last time (but I will give it time to
see if the other 6 copies show up). I realize that this problem may not be
an issue that stems from your end (but in some cases it could be if one cc’s
other forums and groups as well as the various individuals that the post is
replying to).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Second, I agree with you that the Democratic Party is first and foremost an
establishment party just like the Republican Party ( they are both bought and
sold by the establishment which is made up of both public and private
bureaucracies in public and private organizations and business enterprises who
have a vested interest in maintaining the status <SPAN id=misspell-7
class=mark>quo</SPAN> or the illusion of the status <SPAN id=misspell-8
class=mark>quo</SPAN>, fantasies and myths about the “good old days,”the virtues
of hard work and self-made people, and notions of equity (if not equality) in
which everyone gets what they earn and deserve through honest free competition
and markets, etc. The so-called left-wing progressives in the Democratic
Party resemble moderate Eisenhower Republicans and those Democrats that call
themselves <SPAN id=misspell-9 class=mark>centralists</SPAN> look and ac t more
like <SPAN id=misspell-10 class=mark>Goodwater</SPAN> Conservatives. This
makes the Democratic Party resemble the Reagan Republican Party as you
suggest.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>However, while your statement may have been intended as tongue-in-cheek;
there are many who do hold the optimistic (if not <SPAN id=misspell-11
class=mark>utopian</SPAN>) view that a perfect or near-perfect third party can
be established and that it will not be <SPAN id=misspell-12
class=mark>coopted</SPAN> by the practical realities of our political process
and out society so as to become a substitute for or replacement of the current
establishment political parties or just a new addition political party of the
same type as the existing ones. This almost as pervasive as the optimistic myth
that “the American People” or a large majority of the “99%” actually want and
support what the “liberals” and “progressive” activists say that they do and who
they claim to represent. If this were the case, even with extensive mass
media propaganda and big budget expenditures of the corporate establishment and
the 1%, of the “American People” and/or the majority of the “99%” would
not be electing time after time and election after election the people that they
do for public office. They would not be continually fooled into believing
the media, the politicians, corporate establishment or any of their generalized
and content-free promises. Similarly, I think that notions of working from the
inside of any organization is not only a fool’s errand but overly
optimistic. Minor peripheral reforms might be possible; but major systemic
changes are not. They typically come from outside the organization.
In the case of such animals as the political parties, their members constitute a
captured audience in that they have no options but to belong to, support, and
participate in the party organizations that they identify with and belong
to. They operate under the premise that their party of choice is the
lesser of two evils and better to have your evil people in power than the other
party’s people. Thus, if they become dissatisfied, they do not leave their
party and join the other one – except in the rarest of cases. Instead,,
they are more likely to either drop out of the party and become cynical and
apathetic or drop out of involvement with the political process totally in favor
of going along silently with what ever happens in order to get along with the
least practical immediate trouble to themselves and their family and
friends. </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: rgb(245,245,245)">
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=swag901@ymail.com href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com"
rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:swag901@ymail.com">Stan Waggoner</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 05, 2012 5:41 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=ls1000@live.com href="mailto:ls1000@live.com"
rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:ls1000@live.com">Laurie Solomon</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Peace-discuss] [<SPAN id=misspell-14
class=mark>OccupyCU</SPAN>] <SPAN id=misspell-15 class=mark>Finkelstein</SPAN>
on <SPAN id=misspell-16 class=mark>Ghandi</SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>First, I apologize for any duplicate emails you may have received. I
promise I only hit send once. Gremlins I guess.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"
class=yiv1594626217ms__id26139><SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"
class=yiv1594626217ms__id26140><SPAN>Second, my post was intended to be a little
tongue in <SPAN id=yiv1594626217misspell-0><SPAN>cheek</SPAN></SPAN>. Building a
third party at this juncture of corporate spending on elections is, I think, a
fools mission. Therefore, the only choice that makes any sense to me is to move
the Democratic Party further left, as the Republican party has been moved to the
right by the corporations. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"
class=yiv1594626217ms__id26141><SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"
class=yiv1594626217ms__id26142><SPAN>The Democratic Party of today looks more
like the Republican Party of Reagan than I would like.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"
class="yiv1594626217ms__id25390 yiv1594626217ms__id26143"><SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"
class="yiv1594626217ms__id25390 yiv1594626217ms__id26144"><SPAN>Stan</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px"
class=yiv1594626217hr></DIV><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
Laurie Solomon <ls1000@live.com><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Stan Waggoner <swag901@ymail.com>
<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> peace-discuss
<peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net> <BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, September 5, 2012 1:57
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Peace-discuss]
[<SPAN id=misspell-18 class=mark>OccupyCU</SPAN>] <SPAN id=misspell-19
class=mark>Finkelstein</SPAN> on <SPAN id=misspell-20
class=mark>Ghandi</SPAN><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV id=yiv1594626217>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV>I really do not want to get involved in this discussion; but something
(besides the fact that I received 8 duplicate posts of the same message from
Stan) has triggered my response mechanism. I have two questions to
ask: </DIV>
<DIV>First, I think the statement (“<FONT face=Arial><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 9.6pt">We can defeat them tomorrow by spending our time trying
to build a perfect third party today”)</FONT></FONT> is overly optimistic in
many sense of the term. 1) What evidence do you have that a third party will
result in defeating anyone in the future – much less bring about real policy
changes? 2) When has there ever been a “perfect” third party; and what make you
think that perfection is achievable – never mind any goal of absolute perfection
and settling for partial perfection at a level significantly greater than has
ever existed?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Secondly, since many of the Democratic faithful would never vote Republican
under any circumstances and see “bad” Democratic politicians and officials as
being the lesser of two evils, how do you propose the threat to vote Republican
or even third party to be taken seriously as a real threat by the likes of <SPAN
id=misspell-21 class=mark>Feinstein</SPAN>, Emmanuel, or any other Democratic
politician or official? I remember how Democrats complained about how
votes for third party candidate, Ralph Nader, cost the Democrats a Presidential
election and gave it to the Republicans. Given this sort of response to
acting upon one’s threat to not vote for someone from the Democratic Party, such
threats become meaningless.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: rgb(245,245,245)">
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=swag901@ymail.com href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com"
rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:swag901@ymail.com">Stan Waggoner</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> September 04, 2012 9:37 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=davegreen84@yahoo.com
href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com">David Green</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=peace-discuss@anti-war.net
href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net">peace-discuss@anti-war.net</A> ; <A
title=occupycu@lists.chambana.net href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net"
rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net">occupycu@lists.chambana.net</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Peace-discuss] [<SPAN id=misspell-23
class=mark>OccupyCU</SPAN>] <SPAN id=misspell-24 class=mark>Finkelstein</SPAN>
on <SPAN id=misspell-25 class=mark>Ghandi</SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV><SPAN>There is more of us than them. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>Building
one from scratch means <SPAN id=yiv1594626217misspell-0>getting</SPAN> some from
them, and some from us, dividing both parties, and creating a third.
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>In
1856 when the Whig party was already dieing that was doable. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>The
easiest way now is to move the Democratic Party further to the left. We do
it a step at a time, not moving mountains a <SPAN
id=yiv1594626217misspell-1><SPAN>Boulder</SPAN></SPAN> at a time.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"
class=yiv1594626217ms__id38589><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"
class=yiv1594626217ms__id38589><SPAN>One final thought. Both Dianne <SPAN
id=misspell-26 class=mark>Feinstein</SPAN> and <SPAN id=misspell-27
class=mark>Rahm</SPAN> Emmanuel want to get re-elected. Without us they
can not. They need to know that. We may be able to defeat them today
by voting Republican. We can defeat them tomorrow by spending our time
trying to build a perfect third party today.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>Stan</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px"
class=yiv1594626217hr></DIV><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
David Green <davegreen84@yahoo.com><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Stan Waggoner <swag901@ymail.com>
<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B>
"peace-discuss@anti-war.net" <peace-discuss@anti-war.net>;
"occupycu@lists.chambana.net" <occupycu@lists.chambana.net> <BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, September 4, 2012 8:22
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [<SPAN
id=misspell-29 class=mark>OccupyCU</SPAN>] <SPAN id=misspell-30
class=mark>Finkelstein</SPAN> on <SPAN id=misspell-31
class=mark>Ghandi</SPAN><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV id=yiv1594626217>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV><SPAN>If you bother to "take over" the party, then why not just build one
from scratch, or take over one that is not being used. You're talking the party
of Dianne <SPAN id=misspell-32 class=mark>Feinstein</SPAN> and <SPAN
id=misspell-33 class=mark>Rahm</SPAN> Emmanuel.</SPAN><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; MARGIN-TOP: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px">
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px"
class=yiv1594626217hr></DIV><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Stan Waggoner
<swag901@ymail.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
David Green <davegreen84@yahoo.com>; "peace-discuss@anti-war.net"
<peace-discuss@anti-war.net>; "occupycu@lists.chambana.net"
<occupycu@lists.chambana.net> <BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, September 4, 2012 8:16
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [<SPAN
id=misspell-35 class=mark>OccupyCU</SPAN>] <SPAN id=misspell-36
class=mark>Finkelstein</SPAN> on <SPAN id=misspell-37
class=mark>Ghandi</SPAN><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV id=yiv1594626217>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-38 class=mark>Ok</SPAN>, so those of us on the
left should throw away the organizations that have gotten the Democratic party
where it is, and start building a "perfect" Democratic Party. <SPAN
id=misspell-39 class=mark>HooHaa</SPAN>. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>In
the time it takes to do that, there will be nothing left for the "perfect"
Democratic Party to govern. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>We
need to go to the Democratic Party meetings each month, we need to call in to
the <U>Penny For Your Thoughts</U> show on <SPAN id=misspell-40
class=mark>WDWS</SPAN>, we need to talk to each person we see, and tell them
the truth. Anything less, anything other (third party), only lets the
extreme right (Republican Party) destroy our country.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>We
need to re-take the Democratic Party for the benefit of the PEOPLE not the
party.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>Stan</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>AKA
Reasonable Man Stan</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN><SPAN
id=misspell-41 class=mark>WDWS</SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px"
class=yiv1594626217hr></DIV><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> David Green
<davegreen84@yahoo.com><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> "peace-discuss@anti-war.net"
<peace-discuss@anti-war.net>; "occupycu@lists.chambana.net"
<occupycu@lists.chambana.net> <BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, September 4, 2012 9:03
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [<SPAN
id=misspell-42 class=mark>OccupyCU</SPAN>] <SPAN id=misspell-43
class=mark>Finkelstein</SPAN> on <SPAN id=misspell-44
class=mark>Ghandi</SPAN><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV id=yiv1594626217>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV>http://www.zcommunications.org/gandhi-and-occupy-by-norman-finkelstein</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There is a lot to be learned from <SPAN id=misspell-45
class=mark>Finkelstein's</SPAN> study of Gandhi that is relevant to tactics
being discussed on various local lists. Notice that elections and voting in
our two party system are (tellingly) not even mentioned. Neither party is
mentioned. In my opinion, Republicans promote the <SPAN id=misspell-46
class=mark>neoliberal</SPAN> agenda by proposing extreme measures. Democrats
promote the <SPAN id=misspell-47 class=mark>neoliberal</SPAN> agenda by
proposing compromises with Republicans. This has been a collective effort for
goals that rulers of both parties support. It's worked pretty well for 36
years, since the campaign of 1976 when Carter was elected.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There are worthy goals of equality and recognition regarding race,
gender, sexual orientation, immigrants, etc. still to be achieved, obviously.
Unfortunately, these goals are by and large co-opted as a part of Democratic
Party tactics to win votes for their ultimately <SPAN id=misspell-48
class=mark>neoliberal</SPAN> agenda, which ultimately converts genuine
grievances into identity politics<VAR id=yiv1594626217yui-ie-cursor></VAR>.
That is why, even given an understanding of the historical struggle for voting
rights for African-Americans, I'm left cold by all the attention being devoted
to voting rights by the progressive media. Of course there are legitimate
ongoing grievances and Republican outrages; but ultimately an emphasis on
"working within the system" is only to the advantage of the domianant in a
system based on domination.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And don't forget that both parties will try to run to the "right" of each
other regarding foreign policy, especially Israel; ain't nobody gonna get my
Jewish vote.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>David
Green</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>OccupyCU
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:OccupyCU@lists.chambana.net" rel=nofollow
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:OccupyCU@lists.chambana.net">OccupyCU@lists.chambana.net</A><BR>http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/occupycu<BR><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
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class=yiv1594626217hr></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>Peace-discuss
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