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<span><font face="Arial"><span>
<blockquote type="cite"><span><font face="Arial"><span>Up until the
Viet Nam war, the culture and ideology of Amerika was more or less
homogeneous; with the Viet Nam war and after, it has become more
diverse and contentious.</span></font></span></blockquote>
</span></font></span>Really? <br>
I suppose that little spat between the south and the Yankees was pretty
much a celebration of national unity and amity?<br>
<br>
I would say that the Republican Party rather poorly represents the
views of Christianity. <br>
<br>
It doesnt make any sense at all that Catholics and Latinos should lean
Democrat when one<br>
considers that the Democrats tend to favour homosexuality and abortion,
which things are<br>
shunned by Catholics and Latinos. But the Republicans have been
ineffective in opposing<br>
the creep of homosexuality, militant feminism, and abortion, so one
could hardly say that the<br>
Republican party represents genuine Christian values in any significant
way.<br>
<br>
Rick Warren, the charlatan neocon whizkid who is author of books that
many of <br>
Laurie's churchy WASPs buy and read, came out in favour of Obama <br>
in 2008. Many would identify him with the Religious Right, fewer would
<br>
identify Warren as a bloodsucking douchebag<br>
(there's an unfortunate unintended mixed metaphor... I meant he was a
bloodsucker<br>
and a db... a db is a pressure device...not a vacuum... uh...er...).<br>
<br>
The Republican party has indeed for a long time been divided into
factional groups. It is clear<br>
that the neoconservatives are dominant at present. Some so-called
"religious rightists" like<br>
Gary Bauer are quite simply just textbook neocons.<br>
<br>
*<br>
The Tea Party was originally a grassroots libertarian movement started
by Ron Paulers. It has long since<br>
been co-opted by more standard mainstream Republicans, but many Tea
Partiers still don't much like Romney.<br>
<br>
Likewise the Occupy! movement was started by an anarcholibertarian
group before it was co-opted by standard mainstrean<br>
Democrat and pro-organized labour power groups. The "We are the 99%"
was a term coined by<br>
anarcholibertarian David DeGraw. Here is what DeGraw had to say about
the Occupy! movement:<br>
<blockquote>
<p><i>“<font color="#000099">Republicans and Democrats, along with
their Wall Street masters, <br>
are so arrogant, deluded with wealth, completely lacking perspective,
shortsighted and, quite frankly, ignorant. </font></i></p>
<p><i><font color="#000099">As the economic top one-tenth of one
percent has more wealth than they have ever had, <br>
the middle class is quickly disappearing and poverty is soaring. As
politicians ignore the <br>
needs of the suffering masses in favor of a Kleptocratic Oligarchy,
which operates <br>
above the law, it is only a matter of time before an uprising takes
hold. </font></i></p>
<p><i><font color="#000099">After analyzing societal and economic
indicators within the US, in comparison to <br>
rebelling countries, it is not a matter of whether people will revolt
or not, it’s a matter of when.”</font></i></p>
</blockquote>
DeGraw, like most libertarians, thought that the problem and the
solution was so simple that anyone with half a brain<br>
could grasp it. He didn't figure in the massive jello-like brown blob
of systemic inertia.<br>
<br>
It was a brilliant co-optation strategy for the Establishment to
identify Occupy! as left-wing, liberal Democrat-backed<br>
so as to divide them from other groups that have the 1% as a common
enemy, such as the Tea Party and other libertarian<br>
and anarcholibertarian groups.<br>
<br>
The Enemy is neither D nor R. It has money. It has most of the
money. <br>
It controls the media, and it has a deep hook set in the jaws of large
numbers of <br>
people who are enthralled by what the 1% can do for them.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 9/7/2012 4:11 AM, Laurie Solomon wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:BAY169-DS4460585AABB6FAA4686A1ABDA80@phx.gbl"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
style="font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div>> <span><font face="Arial"><font style="font-size: 9.6pt;">If
working from within were a fools errand, then we have the fools in the
religious right to thank for today's Republican Party, IMHO.</font></font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Arial">I will not argue with you that the
religious right is composed of fools; but I do not agree with you that
their working from within the Republican Party has brought about the
current Republican Party. That they have always been in the Republican
party is not what I question; nor is the fact that they have been
dominant off and on from time to time (particularly in hard economic
times, times when the WASP values and interests were being challenged,
and times when racial and ethnic superiority and authority were being
challenged) something to be questioned. However, I do question that
they alone via working within the party have been effective in gaining
control and setting the policies and positions of the current
Republican Party. That they have gained control and exerted influence
over Party policies and practices is in no small measure fueled by
external sources (i.e., global uncertainty and domestic insecurity, the
state of the economy, the rapid increase in population size of
minorities vis-à-vis the majority white population, the rise of
external organizations such as the Tea Party & other right-wing
militias and libertarian groups, etc.). In point of fact, many of the
so-called 1% corporate captains of industry that have always controlled
the Party and its policies held many of the same views and inclinations
as those on in the religious right who are now more visible and vocal;
but circumstances did not warrant their “coming out” so to speak since
they already had formally or informally in place the practices and
policies that they were advocating. WASPs controlled the country,
minorities (racial and ethnic) were tacitly and informally kept under
the thumb of the White power structure, Christianity – if not
Protestantism – was the defacto religion of the country, immigration
was tightly restricted when it came to non-Europeans, and gays remained
closeted. </font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Arial">><span><font
style="font-size: 9.6pt;">After the failure of the Goldwater folks, It
was only 4 years before the more moderate Republicans were able to get
Nixon elected. </font></span></font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial"><span>Ironically, it was Goldwater who
feared and warned about the religious right and its involvement in
politics and the Republican Party. Who says that it was the more
moderate Republicans who got Nixon nominated and/or elected. You
cannot be saying that Nixon was a moderate or did not have right-wing
religious inclinations. Yes, he was a little more prudent,
sophisticated, and pragmatic than today’s Republicans; but was that
anything but a façade. For the most part, the changes in both parties
reflect the changes in Amerikan society. Up until the Viet Nam war,
the culture and ideology of Amerika was more or less homogeneous; with
the Viet Nam war and after, it has become more diverse and contentious.
Thus, while prior to Viet Nam, what I will call “gentleman” politics
where the opponents were civil and willing to compromise was practiced
for the most part; after Viet Nam, politics in Amerika grew up in a
sense and became like the rest of the world where politics became
ideological, lacking in civility, and uncompromising. The main
difference between Amerika and the other countries in the world is that
the other countries employ a parlimentary system in which a winner
takes all criteria does not exist and compromise and/or coalitions are
practiced unlike the U.S. where minority parties and positions are not
given proportional representation in the legislatures or the main
political parties. The main parties in the U.S have sought to be
umbrella parties who try to appear as if they are pragmatically taking
centrist positions and putting forth majority positions and candidates
– even when they obviously are not really either umbrellas or centrist
when one looks under the hood.</span></font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial"><span></span></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Arial"><span>><span><font
style="font-size: 9.6pt;">I do not believe that the 99%<span
id="misspell-1" class="mark">ers</span> are some sort of monolithic
group that all think the same way. Politics is a little like religion
in that you have to BELIEVE to be a devout follower of either party,
and willing to not only vote against your >personal best interest,
but the best interest of the country.</font></span></span></font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial"><span><span></span></span></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Arial"><span><span>Good; but some people seem
to thinks or that a majority of the 99%ers think the same way, support
the same things, or have the same or similar interests. Like all
general categories, they make oversimplified distinctions while
ignoring substantive details. So you will agree that some of the
99%ers – and possibly a majority of them, although we have know way of
knowing what portion of this category support or believe what – may
actually support (1) the candidates, parties, and policies of the
Republican Party;(2) the values, policies, and beliefs of the Tea
Party; the views and practices of the religious right or other
extremist groups; and or the positions and behaviors of the corporate
establishment and/or the 1%. You will agree that many – if not a
majority of the 99% may have vested interests that are different from
those suggested by the Occupy movement and might even oppose that
movement and their positions. You will also agree that it is possible
that a large number of the 99%ers may even hold racist views, ethnic
and gender biases, be anti-gay and/or anti immigrant, support various
law enforcement and home security tactics and measures, and/or back
national defense and foreign policies that have been recently
instituted or currently exist.</span></span></font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial"><span><span></span></span></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Arial"><span><span>Yes politics is more than a
little like religion in that you have to BELIEVE (i.e. be more or less
a “true believer”) to be a devout follower of either party; but this in
itself typically means that you are willing to vote against your own
personal interests and/or the interests of the country but are not
willing to vote against your political party and its candidates for
almost any reason – a “my party and its candidates, platforms, and
policies right or wrong” attitude. Thus, most of those who engage in
politics as active or passive participants tend to be blind followers
and those who merely observe or act a detached actors usually are
cynical and complain but neither very seriously active nor without
serious cases of apathy. Given what you say, how can you put any faith
insiders bringing about change from inside their political parties.
Especially since both major parties have become vehicles of corporate
& labor bureaucratic organizational establishment, have adapted to
the current cultural-technological-and economic societal environment
and conditions.</span></span></font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial"><span><span></span></span></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Arial"><span><span>As for outside sources of
change like the Occupy movement, They suggest or, on occasion, claim
claim to represent the interests of the 99%; but as you suggest, the
99% do not all have the same or even similar interests, beliefs, or
values. Moreover, we have no idea what proportion of the 99%ers
support what independent of what spokes people in the Occupy movement
claim or suggest. Nor do we know what the nature or strength of
commitment the various categories of members or alleged members have
with respect to movement activism and support when it comes to
generating resources, giving time and energy, or taking risks. So at
best, this movement may furnish a long range – if it lasts that long –
amorphous pressure group for change in both the political and economic
culture as well as in the political system and the political parties;
but more than likely their positions will be absorbed and coopted by
the parties and the system so as to result in insignificant symbolic
reforms – mostly in language and platforms but not in actual action,
practices, or policies – as has happened so often in the past with
third parties and pressure groups and movements.</span></span></font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial"><span><span></span> </span></font></span></div>
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<div
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<div style=""><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="swag901@ymail.com" href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com">Stan Waggoner</a>
</div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> September 06, 2012 9:20 AM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="LS1000@LIVE.COM"
href="mailto:LS1000@LIVE.COM">LAURIE</a> ; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] Finkelstein on
Ghandi</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
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<div
style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div><span>Laurie,</span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>If
working from within were a fools errand, then we have the fools in the
religious right to thank for today's Republican Party, IMHO.</span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>After
the failure of the Goldwater folks, It was only 4 years before the more
moderate Republicans were able to get Nixon elected. </span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>Then
there is the Carter situation. The Baptist Church thought the election
of Carter would give them a seat of power. Carter rejected their
desire to take over our government. So the religious right took over
the Republican Party one step at a time, and now we have what we have <span
id="misspell-0" class="mark">WRT</span> the Republicans. </span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>I
do not believe that the 99%<span id="misspell-1" class="mark">ers</span>
are some sort of monolithic group that all think the same way.
Politics is a little like religion in that you have to BELIEVE to be a
devout follower of either party, and willing to not only vote against
your personal best interest, but the best interest of the country.</span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>One
step at a time the Democratic party can be moved to the left. We just
have to do the hard work of getting people that can be elected thinking
the right way. The veil of my "church" right or wrong must be torn
down. The veil of my country, right or wrong must be replaced with
standards that all countries must follow. </span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>We
have allowed the Republicans for too long to be the party of
"believers", while liberals keep searching for a new direction. Last
week it was anti-war, this week it is anti-corporation. The easiest
place to put both of these groups, and all the other splinters,
together is under an existing organization's umbrella. </span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>As
long as we are a bunch of scattered idealists, we will have no power.
Without power, we can not save our country.</span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span></span> </div>
<div> </div>
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<div
style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2"><b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> LAURIE
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:LS1000@LIVE.COM"><LS1000@LIVE.COM></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Stan Waggoner
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com"><swag901@ymail.com></a>; peace-discuss
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"><peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net></a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday,
September 5, 2012 6:38 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[Peace-discuss] [<span id="misspell-3" class="mark">OccupyCU</span>] <span
id="misspell-4" class="mark">Finkelstein</span> on <span
id="misspell-5" class="mark">Ghandi</span><br>
</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div id="yiv1594626217">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
style="font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div><span id="misspell-6" class="mark">Ok</span>, I only got two
copies of this message instead of the 8 copies I got the last time (but
I will give it time to see if the other 6 copies show up). I realize
that this problem may not be an issue that stems from your end (but in
some cases it could be if one cc’s other forums and groups as well as
the various individuals that the post is replying to).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Second, I agree with you that the Democratic Party is first and
foremost an establishment party just like the Republican Party ( they
are both bought and sold by the establishment which is made up of both
public and private bureaucracies in public and private organizations
and business enterprises who have a vested interest in maintaining the
status <span id="misspell-7" class="mark">quo</span> or the illusion
of the status <span id="misspell-8" class="mark">quo</span>, fantasies
and myths about the “good old days,”the virtues of hard work and
self-made people, and notions of equity (if not equality) in which
everyone gets what they earn and deserve through honest free
competition and markets, etc. The so-called left-wing progressives in
the Democratic Party resemble moderate Eisenhower Republicans and those
Democrats that call themselves <span id="misspell-9" class="mark">centralists</span>
look and ac t more like <span id="misspell-10" class="mark">Goodwater</span>
Conservatives. This makes the Democratic Party resemble the Reagan
Republican Party as you suggest.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>However, while your statement may have been intended as
tongue-in-cheek; there are many who do hold the optimistic (if not <span
id="misspell-11" class="mark">utopian</span>) view that a perfect or
near-perfect third party can be established and that it will not be <span
id="misspell-12" class="mark">coopted</span> by the practical
realities of our political process and out society so as to become a
substitute for or replacement of the current establishment political
parties or just a new addition political party of the same type as the
existing ones. This almost as pervasive as the optimistic myth that
“the American People” or a large majority of the “99%” actually want
and support what the “liberals” and “progressive” activists say that
they do and who they claim to represent. If this were the case, even
with extensive mass media propaganda and big budget expenditures of the
corporate establishment and the 1%, of the “American People” and/or the
majority of the “99%” would not be electing time after time and
election after election the people that they do for public office.
They would not be continually fooled into believing the media, the
politicians, corporate establishment or any of their generalized and
content-free promises. Similarly, I think that notions of working from
the inside of any organization is not only a fool’s errand but overly
optimistic. Minor peripheral reforms might be possible; but major
systemic changes are not. They typically come from outside the
organization. In the case of such animals as the political parties,
their members constitute a captured audience in that they have no
options but to belong to, support, and participate in the party
organizations that they identify with and belong to. They operate
under the premise that their party of choice is the lesser of two evils
and better to have your evil people in power than the other party’s
people. Thus, if they become dissatisfied, they do not leave their
party and join the other one – except in the rarest of cases.
Instead,, they are more likely to either drop out of the party and
become cynical and apathetic or drop out of involvement with the
political process totally in favor of going along silently with what
ever happens in order to get along with the least practical immediate
trouble to themselves and their family and friends. </div>
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<div
style="background: rgb(245, 245, 245) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">
<div><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="swag901@ymail.com"
href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
ymailto="mailto:swag901@ymail.com">Stan Waggoner</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 05, 2012 5:41 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="ls1000@live.com"
href="mailto:ls1000@live.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
ymailto="mailto:ls1000@live.com">Laurie Solomon</a> </div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss</a>
</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Peace-discuss] [<span id="misspell-14"
class="mark">OccupyCU</span>] <span id="misspell-15" class="mark">Finkelstein</span>
on <span id="misspell-16" class="mark">Ghandi</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
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<div><span></span></div>
<div><span>First, I apologize for any duplicate emails you may have
received. I promise I only hit send once. Gremlins I guess.</span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"
class="yiv1594626217ms__id26139"><span></span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"
class="yiv1594626217ms__id26140"><span>Second, my post was intended to
be a little tongue in <span id="yiv1594626217misspell-0"><span>cheek</span></span>.
Building a third party at this juncture of corporate spending on
elections is, I think, a fools mission. Therefore, the only choice that
makes any sense to me is to move the Democratic Party further left, as
the Republican party has been moved to the right by the corporations. </span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"
class="yiv1594626217ms__id26141"><span></span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"
class="yiv1594626217ms__id26142"><span>The Democratic Party of today
looks more like the Republican Party of Reagan than I would like.</span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"
class="yiv1594626217ms__id25390 yiv1594626217ms__id26143"><span></span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"
class="yiv1594626217ms__id25390 yiv1594626217ms__id26144"><span>Stan</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div
style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2"><b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Laurie Solomon
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ls1000@live.com"><ls1000@live.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Stan Waggoner
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com"><swag901@ymail.com></a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> peace-discuss
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"><peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net></a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday,
September 5, 2012 1:57 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[Peace-discuss] [<span id="misspell-18" class="mark">OccupyCU</span>] <span
id="misspell-19" class="mark">Finkelstein</span> on <span
id="misspell-20" class="mark">Ghandi</span><br>
</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div id="yiv1594626217">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
style="font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div>I really do not want to get involved in this discussion; but
something (besides the fact that I received 8 duplicate posts of the
same message from Stan) has triggered my response mechanism. I have
two questions to ask: </div>
<div>First, I think the statement (“<font face="Arial"><font
style="font-size: 9.6pt;">We can defeat them tomorrow by spending our
time trying to build a perfect third party today”)</font></font> is
overly optimistic in many sense of the term. 1) What evidence do you
have that a third party will result in defeating anyone in the future –
much less bring about real policy changes? 2) When has there ever been
a “perfect” third party; and what make you think that perfection is
achievable – never mind any goal of absolute perfection and settling
for partial perfection at a level significantly greater than has ever
existed?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Secondly, since many of the Democratic faithful would never vote
Republican under any circumstances and see “bad” Democratic politicians
and officials as being the lesser of two evils, how do you propose the
threat to vote Republican or even third party to be taken seriously as
a real threat by the likes of <span id="misspell-21" class="mark">Feinstein</span>,
Emmanuel, or any other Democratic politician or official? I remember
how Democrats complained about how votes for third party candidate,
Ralph Nader, cost the Democrats a Presidential election and gave it to
the Republicans. Given this sort of response to acting upon one’s
threat to not vote for someone from the Democratic Party, such threats
become meaningless.</div>
<div> </div>
<div
style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">
<div
style="font-family: tahoma; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; -x-system-font: none; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
<div> </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(245, 245, 245) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">
<div><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="swag901@ymail.com"
href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
ymailto="mailto:swag901@ymail.com">Stan Waggoner</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> September 04, 2012 9:37 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="davegreen84@yahoo.com" href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com"
rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com">David
Green</a> </div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="peace-discuss@anti-war.net"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net">peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>
; <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="occupycu@lists.chambana.net"
href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net">occupycu@lists.chambana.net</a>
</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Peace-discuss] [<span id="misspell-23"
class="mark">OccupyCU</span>] <span id="misspell-24" class="mark">Finkelstein</span>
on <span id="misspell-25" class="mark">Ghandi</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div
style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">
<div
style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div><span>There is more of us than them. </span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>Building
one from scratch means <span id="yiv1594626217misspell-0">getting</span>
some from them, and some from us, dividing both parties, and creating a
third. </span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>In
1856 when the Whig party was already dieing that was doable. </span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>The
easiest way now is to move the Democratic Party further to the left.
We do it a step at a time, not moving mountains a <span
id="yiv1594626217misspell-1"><span>Boulder</span></span> at a time.</span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"
class="yiv1594626217ms__id38589"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"
class="yiv1594626217ms__id38589"><span>One final thought. Both Dianne
<span id="misspell-26" class="mark">Feinstein</span> and <span
id="misspell-27" class="mark">Rahm</span> Emmanuel want to get
re-elected. Without us they can not. They need to know that. We may
be able to defeat them today by voting Republican. We can defeat them
tomorrow by spending our time trying to build a perfect third party
today.</span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>Stan</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div
style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2"><b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> David Green
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com"><davegreen84@yahoo.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Stan Waggoner
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com"><swag901@ymail.com></a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net">"peace-discuss@anti-war.net"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net"><peace-discuss@anti-war.net></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net">"occupycu@lists.chambana.net"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net"><occupycu@lists.chambana.net></a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday,
September 4, 2012 8:22 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [<span
id="misspell-29" class="mark">OccupyCU</span>] <span id="misspell-30"
class="mark">Finkelstein</span> on <span id="misspell-31" class="mark">Ghandi</span><br>
</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div id="yiv1594626217">
<div>
<div
style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div><span>If you bother to "take over" the party, then why not just
build one from scratch, or take over one that is not being used. You're
talking the party of Dianne <span id="misspell-32" class="mark">Feinstein</span>
and <span id="misspell-33" class="mark">Rahm</span> Emmanuel.</span><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">
<div
style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div
style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2"> <b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Stan Waggoner
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com"><swag901@ymail.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> David Green
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com"><davegreen84@yahoo.com></a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net">"peace-discuss@anti-war.net"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net"><peace-discuss@anti-war.net></a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net">"occupycu@lists.chambana.net"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net"><occupycu@lists.chambana.net></a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday,
September 4, 2012 8:16 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [<span
id="misspell-35" class="mark">OccupyCU</span>] <span id="misspell-36"
class="mark">Finkelstein</span> on <span id="misspell-37" class="mark">Ghandi</span><br>
</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div id="yiv1594626217">
<div>
<div
style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div><span><span id="misspell-38" class="mark">Ok</span>, so those
of us on the left should throw away the organizations that have gotten
the Democratic party where it is, and start building a "perfect"
Democratic Party. <span id="misspell-39" class="mark">HooHaa</span>.
</span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>In
the time it takes to do that, there will be nothing left for the
"perfect" Democratic Party to govern. </span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>We
need to go to the Democratic Party meetings each month, we need to call
in to the <u>Penny For Your Thoughts</u> show on <span
id="misspell-40" class="mark">WDWS</span>, we need to talk to each
person we see, and tell them the truth. Anything less, anything other
(third party), only lets the extreme right (Republican Party) destroy
our country.</span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>We
need to re-take the Democratic Party for the benefit of the PEOPLE not
the party.</span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span></span> </div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>Stan</span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span>AKA
Reasonable Man Stan</span></div>
<div
style="background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span><span
id="misspell-41" class="mark">WDWS</span></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div
style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2"> <b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> David Green
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com"><davegreen84@yahoo.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net">"peace-discuss@anti-war.net"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net"><peace-discuss@anti-war.net></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net">"occupycu@lists.chambana.net"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net"><occupycu@lists.chambana.net></a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday,
September 4, 2012 9:03 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> [<span
id="misspell-42" class="mark">OccupyCU</span>] <span id="misspell-43"
class="mark">Finkelstein</span> on <span id="misspell-44" class="mark">Ghandi</span><br>
</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div id="yiv1594626217">
<div>
<div
style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.zcommunications.org/gandhi-and-occupy-by-norman-finkelstein">http://www.zcommunications.org/gandhi-and-occupy-by-norman-finkelstein</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div>There is a lot to be learned from <span id="misspell-45"
class="mark">Finkelstein's</span> study of Gandhi that is relevant to
tactics being discussed on various local lists. Notice that elections
and voting in our two party system are (tellingly) not even mentioned.
Neither party is mentioned. In my opinion, Republicans promote the <span
id="misspell-46" class="mark">neoliberal</span> agenda by proposing
extreme measures. Democrats promote the <span id="misspell-47"
class="mark">neoliberal</span> agenda by proposing compromises with
Republicans. This has been a collective effort for goals that rulers of
both parties support. It's worked pretty well for 36 years, since the
campaign of 1976 when Carter was elected.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>There are worthy goals of equality and recognition regarding
race, gender, sexual orientation, immigrants, etc. still to be
achieved, obviously. Unfortunately, these goals are by and large
co-opted as a part of Democratic Party tactics to win votes for their
ultimately <span id="misspell-48" class="mark">neoliberal</span>
agenda, which ultimately converts genuine grievances into identity
politics<var id="yiv1594626217yui-ie-cursor"></var>. That is why, even
given an understanding of the historical struggle for voting rights for
African-Americans, I'm left cold by all the attention being devoted to
voting rights by the progressive media. Of course there are legitimate
ongoing grievances and Republican outrages; but ultimately an emphasis
on "working within the system" is only to the advantage of the
domianant in a system based on domination.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>And don't forget that both parties will try to run to the
"right" of each other regarding foreign policy, especially Israel;
ain't nobody gonna get my Jewish vote.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>David Green</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
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