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In days of yore it was likely that my seemingly obscure references were
well known.<br>
<br>
It is unlikely that the masses rise up and slay the establishment even
though<br>
that would likely have a more desirable outcome than the more likely <br>
collapse, breach, and imposition scenario. It wont be short but
certainly nasty<br>
and brutish if one keeps track.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 9/7/2012 1:10 AM, Laurie Solomon wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:BAY169-DS2C266FDD4764615B65A6CBDA80@phx.gbl"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Context-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div>
<div>
<div>Skipping all the flowery and obscure bullshit that you always
force your readers to wade through and if I read you correctly, I think
that you are making a distinction between two tactics to achieve the
same strategy. I can really care less about the two tactics and the
differences between them; but I do agree with you as to there being
only one strategy – and that is for the people to rise up and strike
back (as you put it), independent of how they do it. That has been in
the past and is now in the present the only way to create significant
substantive systemic change – everything else is merely peripheral
reforms of the existing system and practices – not radical change of
the existing system and practices. You say, “As I see it right now
there are only two possible ways forward....”; I say that you may just
come to this insight right now but that has always been the case. I
would only add that there may be more tactical ways then you suggest
but they all involve the same thing – a population that rises up and
slays the establishment. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>This, of course, might have been easier and more feasible in
days of yore than it is in contemporary times; and we both know that is
is never going to happen in Amerika unless the system totally collapses
under its own weight or because of forces and disasters imposed from
outside over which it has no control. Unfortunately, as current trends
illustrate, even then the radical change will be toward a Hobbesian
state of a “war of all against all” in which “life is nasty, brutish,
and short.” Even then, politics will be no more than a circulation of
elites in which the established elites will work to insure that they
stay in power and on top, although they will have to be
<div> constantly on their guard against revolutions that bring a new
set of competing elites into power with a new set of policies to
support and serve their vested interests and survival. </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="ewj@pigsqq.org"
href="mailto:ewj@pigsqq.org">E. Wayne Johnson</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> September 05, 2012 8:09 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="LS1000@LIVE.COM"
href="mailto:LS1000@LIVE.COM">LAURIE</a> </div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="swag901@ymail.com"
href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com">Stan Waggoner</a> ; <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] Finkelstein on
Ghandi</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>Perhaps many tire of hearing this from me, but I still accept
the idea that there<br>
will be absolutely no remission of sin without bloodshed. The Sins of
the American people<br>
and their government (of course it's your government, you put them in
office and have sustained them)<br>
will be at some future day called to account. A day of reckoning, if
you will, if you prefer or disdain<br>
such a turn of phrase. Call it Karma or Mount Carmel. Quanbu jiushi
yiyang. <br>
It's all the same thing, sez Gomer Pyle.<br>
<br>
The blood that Obama and his minions are shedding abroad for your
hearts is not an <br>
acceptable sacrifice. You can't scapegoat the Arabs and Afghans, or
persecute the Persians and the Pashtuns for your sins.<br>
It just won't work, and you can raise Cain about it how unfair it is
for your veggies but that blood will cry out from the<br>
ground that something just ain't right.<br>
<br>
As I see it right now there are only two possible ways forward. <br>
<br>
One is for the good people to rise up and slay the prophets of Obamney<br>
and feed the lovely and delightful Killary to the dogs.<br>
<br>
It is unlikely that the pepper-scented cowards of Amerika<br>
will rise up and bite their masters. Many think that whole notion of
a violent overthrow is<br>
nauseating if not just plain undesirable, and would even defend the
rights of their masters to keep<br>
them under bondage.<br>
<br>
The other way is to "invite in" an invading "military force" to do the
"killing". Actually this is far more<br>
likely and seems to be the mode for correcting an empire in decline.
Since the people are unable/unwilling<br>
to sharpen and put in effect their own razor, a hired one will come in
to do the shaving on a contractual<br>
basis so to speak. Joel's army seems to be equipped with some cool
pyrotechnical "entertainment".<br>
<br>
As some miscreant whose name i dont recall wrote about the manifest
destiny without apologies to Pat, <br>
the huns will slip up behind the sleeping amerikans and hit them over
the back of the head with a sock full of shit.<br>
<br>
*<br>
I return you to your vital discussions of the importance of honouring
the desire of those delicate ones on<br>
the "peace" list to keep their eyes well shuttered (lettuce dye a pace
in pace).<br>
<br>
<br>
*****<br>
....Ok.... the guy's name is John Strausbaugh, the book is "Sissy
Nation" and here is an excerpt:<br>
<br>
"....unless we stop acting like such sissies, <br>
soon enough some lean, angry barbarians from somewhere out Beyond
Fundadome <br>
are going to overrun us, ramming their bayonets in our lard guts <br>
like fingers poking the Pillsbury Doughboy, only we won't be giggling.”<br>
<br>
***<br>
Well, Raggedy-man. Ain't we a pair.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 9/6/2012 7:38 AM, LAURIE wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:BAY169-DS17B615D824B0278694CEDBBDA90@phx.gbl"
type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div>Ok, I only got two copies of this message instead of the 8
copies I got the last time (but I will give it time to see if the other
6 copies show up). I realize that this problem may not be an issue
that stems from your end (but in some cases it could be if one cc’s
other forums and groups as well as the various individuals that the
post is replying to).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Second, I agree with you that the Democratic Party is first
and foremost an establishment party just like the Republican Party (
they are both bought and sold by the establishment which is made up of
both public and private bureaucracies in public and private
organizations and business enterprises who have a vested interest in
maintaining the status quo or the illusion of the status quo, fantasies
and myths about the “good old days,”the virtues of hard work and
self-made people, and notions of equity (if not equality) in which
everyone gets what they earn and deserve through honest free
competition and markets, etc. The so-called left-wing progressives in
the Democratic Party resemble moderate Eisenhower Republicans and those
Democrats that call themselves centralists look and ac t more like
Goodwater Conservatives. This makes the Democratic Party resemble the
Reagan Republican Party as you suggest.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>However, while your statement may have been intended as
tongue-in-cheek; there are many who do hold the optimistic (if not
utopian) view that a perfect or near-perfect third party can be
established and that it will not be coopted by the practical realities
of our political process and out society so as to become a substitute
for or replacement of the current establishment political parties or
just a new addition political party of the same type as the existing
ones. This almost as pervasive as the optimistic myth that “the
American People” or a large majority of the “99%” actually want and
support what the “liberals” and “progressive” activists say that they
do and who they claim to represent. If this were the case, even with
extensive mass media propaganda and big budget expenditures of the
corporate establishment and the 1%, of the “American People” and/or the
majority of the “99%” would not be electing time after time and
election after election the people that they do for public office.
They would not be continually fooled into believing the media, the
politicians, corporate establishment or any of their generalized and
content-free promises. Similarly, I think that notions of working from
the inside of any organization is not only a fool’s errand but overly
optimistic. Minor peripheral reforms might be possible; but major
systemic changes are not. They typically come from outside the
organization. In the case of such animals as the political parties,
their members constitute a captured audience in that they have no
options but to belong to, support, and participate in the party
organizations that they identify with and belong to. They operate
under the premise that their party of choice is the lesser of two evils
and better to have your evil people in power than the other party’s
people. Thus, if they become dissatisfied, they do not leave their
party and join the other one – except in the rarest of cases.
Instead,, they are more likely to either drop out of the party and
become cynical and apathetic or drop out of involvement with the
political process totally in favor of going along silently with what
ever happens in order to get along with the least practical immediate
trouble to themselves and their family and friends. </div>
<div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="swag901@ymail.com" href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com">Stan Waggoner</a>
</div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 05, 2012 5:41 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="ls1000@live.com"
href="mailto:ls1000@live.com">Laurie Solomon</a> </div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] Finkelstein on
Ghandi</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><span></span></div>
<div><span>First, I apologize for any duplicate emails you may have
received. I promise I only hit send once. Gremlins I guess.</span></div>
<div><span></span></div>
<div><span>Second, my post was intended to be a little tongue in <span><span>cheek</span></span>.
Building a third party at this juncture of corporate spending on
elections is, I think, a fools mission. Therefore, the only choice that
makes any sense to me is to move the Democratic Party further left, as
the Republican party has been moved to the right by the corporations. </span></div>
<div><span></span></div>
<div><span>The Democratic Party of today looks more like the
Republican Party of Reagan than I would like.</span></div>
<div><span></span></div>
<div><span>Stan</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div> <b><span>From:</span></b> Laurie Solomon <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ls1000@live.com">mailto:ls1000@live.com</a><br>
<b><span>To:</span></b> Stan Waggoner <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com">mailto:swag901@ymail.com</a> <br>
<b><span>Cc:</span></b> peace-discuss <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>
<br>
<b><span>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, September 5, 2012 1:57 PM<br>
<b><span>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU]
Finkelstein on Ghandi<br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>I really do not want to get involved in this discussion; but
something (besides the fact that I received 8 duplicate posts of the
same message from Stan) has triggered my response mechanism. I have
two questions to ask: </div>
<div>First, I think the statement (“ We can defeat them tomorrow by
spending our time trying to build a perfect third party today”) is
overly optimistic in many sense of the term. 1) What evidence do you
have that a third party will result in defeating anyone in the future –
much less bring about real policy changes? 2) When has there ever been
a “perfect” third party; and what make you think that perfection is
achievable – never mind any goal of absolute perfection and settling
for partial perfection at a level significantly greater than has ever
existed?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Secondly, since many of the Democratic faithful would never
vote Republican under any circumstances and see “bad” Democratic
politicians and officials as being the lesser of two evils, how do you
propose the threat to vote Republican or even third party to be taken
seriously as a real threat by the likes of Feinstein, Emmanuel, or any
other Democratic politician or official? I remember how Democrats
complained about how votes for third party candidate, Ralph Nader, cost
the Democrats a Presidential election and gave it to the Republicans.
Given this sort of response to acting upon one’s threat to not vote for
someone from the Democratic Party, such threats become meaningless.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="swag901@ymail.com" href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com">Stan Waggoner</a>
</div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> September 04, 2012 9:37 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="davegreen84@yahoo.com" href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com">David
Green</a> </div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="peace-discuss@anti-war.net"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net">peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>
; <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="occupycu@lists.chambana.net"
href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net">occupycu@lists.chambana.net</a>
</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] Finkelstein on
Ghandi</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><span>There is more of us than them. </span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>Building one from scratch means <span>getting</span>
some from them, and some from us, dividing both parties, and creating a
third. </span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>In 1856 when the Whig party was already dieing that was
doable. </span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>The easiest way now is to move the Democratic Party
further to the left. We do it a step at a time, not moving mountains a
<span><span>Boulder</span></span> at a time.</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>One final thought. Both Dianne Feinstein and Rahm
Emmanuel want to get re-elected. Without us they can not. They need
to know that. We may be able to defeat them today by voting
Republican. We can defeat them tomorrow by spending our time trying to
build a perfect third party today.</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>Stan</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div> <b><span>From:</span></b> David Green <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com">mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com</a><br>
<b><span>To:</span></b> Stan Waggoner <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com">mailto:swag901@ymail.com</a> <br>
<b><span>Cc:</span></b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net">mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net">mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>;
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net">mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net">mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net</a>
<br>
<b><span>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, September 4, 2012 8:22 PM<br>
<b><span>Subject:</span></b> Re: [OccupyCU] Finkelstein on Ghandi<br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><span>If you bother to "take over" the party, then why not
just build one from scratch, or take over one that is not being used.
You're talking the party of Dianne Feinstein and Rahm Emmanuel.</span><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div> <b><span>From:</span></b> Stan Waggoner <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:swag901@ymail.com">mailto:swag901@ymail.com</a><br>
<b><span>To:</span></b> David Green <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com">mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>; <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net">mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net">mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>;
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net">mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net">mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net</a>
<br>
<b><span>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, September 4, 2012 8:16 PM<br>
<b><span>Subject:</span></b> Re: [OccupyCU] Finkelstein on Ghandi<br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><span>Ok, so those of us on the left should throw away the
organizations that have gotten the Democratic party where it is, and
start building a "perfect" Democratic Party. HooHaa. </span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>In the time it takes to do that, there will be nothing
left for the "perfect" Democratic Party to govern. </span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>We need to go to the Democratic Party meetings each
month, we need to call in to the Penny For Your Thoughts show on WDWS,
we need to talk to each person we see, and tell them the truth.
Anything less, anything other (third party), only lets the extreme
right (Republican Party) destroy our country.</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>We need to re-take the Democratic Party for the
benefit of the PEOPLE not the party.</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>Stan</span></div>
<div><span>AKA Reasonable Man Stan</span></div>
<div><span>WDWS</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div> <b><span>From:</span></b> David Green <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com">mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com</a><br>
<b><span>To:</span></b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net">mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net">mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>;
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net">mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net">mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net</a>
<br>
<b><span>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, September 4, 2012 9:03 AM<br>
<b><span>Subject:</span></b> [OccupyCU] Finkelstein on Ghandi<br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.zcommunications.org/gandhi-and-occupy-by-norman-finkelstein">http://www.zcommunications.org/gandhi-and-occupy-by-norman-finkelstein</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div>There is a lot to be learned from Finkelstein's study of
Gandhi that is relevant to tactics being discussed on various local
lists. Notice that elections and voting in our two party system are
(tellingly) not even mentioned. Neither party is mentioned. In my
opinion, Republicans promote the neoliberal agenda by proposing extreme
measures. Democrats promote the neoliberal agenda by proposing
compromises with Republicans. This has been a collective effort for
goals that rulers of both parties support. It's worked pretty well for
36 years, since the campaign of 1976 when Carter was elected.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>There are worthy goals of equality and recognition regarding
race, gender, sexual orientation, immigrants, etc. still to be
achieved, obviously. Unfortunately, these goals are by and large
co-opted as a part of Democratic Party tactics to win votes for their
ultimately neoliberal agenda, which ultimately converts genuine
grievances into identity politics<var></var>. That is why, even given
an understanding of the historical struggle for voting rights for
African-Americans, I'm left cold by all the attention being devoted to
voting rights by the progressive media. Of course there are legitimate
ongoing grievances and Republican outrages; but ultimately an emphasis
on "working within the system" is only to the advantage of the
domianant in a system based on domination.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>And don't forget that both parties will try to run to the
"right" of each other regarding foreign policy, especially Israel;
ain't nobody gonna get my Jewish vote.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>David Green</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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</blockquote>
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