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Rachel,<br>
<br>
What is toxic about debate?<br>
<br>
Indeed it seems that you do indeed want people to shut up.<br>
<br>
Originally I just thought I would point out some natural tendencies
that oft characterize the differences in gender,<br>
but it really seems that you actually do want to stifle debate.<br>
<br>
Wayne<br>
<br>
<br>
On 09/13/12 9:45, Rachel Storm wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAARP02AeR4Vh6Z6Y2kqkQ7evQNtXoTrE+EJCm3mCHss+3jEOzg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite"><font color="#000000"><font><font
face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Ingbert, Scott, Sarah, Brook---</font></font></font>
<div><font color="#000000"><font><font
face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</font></font></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><font><font
face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Thank you for your words, your
support. You're right. I don't want people to shut up--I want people to
talk to each other, and frequently, but with the aim of reaching that
deep meaningful, vulnerable place--the one that makes you feel
uncomfortable, but stimulated. Ingbert, I hear you and I agree that
checking each other is an act of care that we do for people we love and
want to make community with---I want to organize here and so. My email
wasn't just directed towards those who are dominating conversation, but
all of us--myself included--to stay privy to our privilege. </font></font></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><font><font
face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</font></font></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><font><font
face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">You're right. I was angry. I am
angry. I think it's good to be angry and it isn't the critiques I've
had trouble with. I think what Carl and others offer are good topics of
conversation, good information. It's the way it's presented and the
fast-forward towards debate that I find toxic. </font></font></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><font><font
face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</font></font></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><font><font
face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Anyway, for what it's worth, thank
you.</font></font></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><font><font
face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</font></font></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><font><font
face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">RS</font></font></font></div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 6:24 PM, Ingbert
Schmidt <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ifloyd2@gmail.com" target="_blank">ifloyd2@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Thank
you Scott!
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On a different vein, here's part of my perspective:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Isn't Occupy supposed to be about us as individuals trying to
conceptualize the kind of society we *want* to live in, and then work
to try to create that society?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My answer is yes.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If so, then what are the qualities that we'd like to see
practiced in a better society?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have many thoughts on this, but certainly one of them is
people treating each other with respect.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Have the discussions on this list been respectful?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My answer is not really.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Do we want people to feel comfortable posting what is
important to them?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My answer is yes.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Can repeated, aggressive posting be intimidating to people and
prevent them from feeling comfortable posting what is important to them?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yes.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Is, therefore, the repeated aggressive posting of your
particular positions with harsh critiques of anybody who might disagree
an act of silencing people?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yes.</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>Is, therefore, a response that attacks people for pointing out
that a particular behavior is intimidating and silencing by claiming
that this observation is an attempt at repressing the poster's ability
to speak hypocritical?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would argue yes: If the poster isn't aware of how
suppressing their mode of communication is, then the fact that they
feel disrespected and silenced should make them more aware of when
other people feel disrespected and silenced, and at the very least they
should pay attention to the content of what the other posters might say.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Is the act of silencing people disrespectful?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yes.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Rachel was not calling on anybody to shut up. Rachel was
annoyed by how some members of a group claiming to be progressive was
engaging in the very kinds of behaviors and attitudes that reinforce
some of the societal practices that others in the group are trying to
address through participation in the group. So she called out this
behavior. And what she was asking is for the people who are a part of
the group to pay attention to all members of the group and how their
behaviors are affecting them. In my understanding, this kind of
activity constitutes respect.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Rachel was annoyed when she wrote the email. It came across.
As it should have. When you or a group you are a part of is being
disrespected, I think it is perfectly fair to be annoyed. Hell, I'd be
angry.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I send annoyed emails all too often as some people on this
list can attest. They often bother people. I have never been called a
bitch, a shrew, an ass-hole or any male variant on this. Not once. Why?
I suspect because I am a white male, and my emotion is often treated as
"man'splainin". I.e., acceptable to white males, and intimidating to
some other people.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have been checked by people. I should probably be checked
more often. I try to check myself but I'm not very good at it. I
sometimes don't respond very well to being checked. But I try. And the
people who check me I feel are my friends. Usually, my best friends. No
matter how annoyed they might be with me. Because I am by no means a
perfect human being, and I don't see myself very well, so they help me
stay in line. And put up with me despite the mistakes I often make.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We can look at this "discussion" in any number of different
ways. Here's mine:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I want to be part of an activist community where participants
fundamentally respect each other, and treat each other with respect.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would like people to try to be respectful by paying
attention to their own actions as much as possible. I try to do this
myself. I don't always succeed.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don't always know when I or other people are being
disrespectful, so I assume that others may have this problem as well.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Therefore, I welcome it when people point it out to me when I
am being disrespectful, and I would like other people to welcome this
as well so that we can all learn how to be respectful together. I have
a lot to learn and can use all the help I can get.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don't have any patience for somebody who asks for respect
but has no interest in giving it, or in trying to understand why
another person might feel disrespected.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Part of being respectful is understanding why a mailing list
exists, why people participate, and being mindful of that in their
posts. It is good to discuss this purpose if there is disagreement
about it. It is not respectful to enforce your own perspective on the
list. Agreements should be arrived at, preferably by the same consensus
mechanisms adopted in meetings of the group.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But most importantly, we should be trying to practice our
conceptions of how society as a whole can be made better by practicing
the very things we would like to have changed in society in the
microcosms we are a part of, and the very groups devoted to making
those changes should be the *first* place they are implemented. I don't
believe in giving anybody a pass for intentional disrespect, but here?
No excuses, period. Before we can be credible to others, we have to be
changing ourselves.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So, to everybody on the list:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I want to be respectful of others. Please help me be that way.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ingbert</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 7:08 PM, Scott
Kimball <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:scttkmbll@gmail.com" target="_blank">scttkmbll@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">While
I normally try to stay out of listserv battles, as a white male I feel
the responsibility to challenge other white males when they are
so blatantly perpetuating patriarchy and/or white supremacy. In
particular, I cannot believe the comments directed at Rachel, one of
the hardest working organizers in our community. The two responses to
Rachel thus far are examples of how the patriarchy permeates our
society and this listserv.<br>
<br>
First Comment:
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 16.3636px;">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: tahoma,'new york',times,serif;">
<div>
<div>"There is nothing revolutionary about conversations
here. I can listen to white men man'splain in desperate pissing
contests virtually anywhere--that's what patriarchy continues to afford
me."</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;"> </div>
</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;">Rachel, do you think that an
individual's views can be reduced and/or dismissed on account of their
age, race, and/or gender?</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>This is example of how men feel entitled to choose the
parameters of "acceptable discussion". Whenever a woman or person of
color brings up issues of race or gender, a reactionary white man
responds with something like " What does this have to do with
race/gender? You're the one bringing up race/gender, therefore you are
the one who is racist/sexist". </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It is not a matter of reducing one to their race, age,
gender, class, etc, its about acknowledging privilege and how that
affects one's orientation towards others. The term "mansplaining" is
used to describe the tendency of men to feel entitled to "tell it like
it is" to others. In other words, men are somehow the subject matter
experts on <i>everything </i>and need to tell <i>you</i> "how the
world really is" or "the truth" or whatever. The issue is not the
content one's statement; <b>it is the presumption of authority</b>. This
tendency is exacerbated by whiteness, class privilege, and education
level. I've met way too many white dudes from upper middle class
backgrounds and graduate degrees who want to show everyone how smart
and knowledgeable they are.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is not to say, however, that one is bound to act in
such a way. It is a challenge to those with privilege to reflect upon
that privilege, on how it permeates their life, and to think about how
they, as privileged members of society, can be an ally to oppressed
communities. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>David, I am not trying to argue that you act in such a way.
However, your comment was a prompt for a response and this group needs
some discussion about white and male privilege. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
Second comment:</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 16.3636px;">How does
silly and childish compare with shrewish and bitchy on the value scale?</span><br
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 16.3636px;">
</div>
<div><span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 16.3636px;"><br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>This is such such a typical patriarchal response to a woman
speaking up that it would be comical if it were not the case that this
man actually lives in our community. Whenever a woman speaks up and
challenges the men, she becomes "the bitch". It doesn't matter what she
says.Her words are not heard. Only the challenge to male authority is
heard. Compare this to when a man speaks out. When a man speaks out,
he is heard and his thoughts are acknowledged to be worthy of
discussion. Men can "reason" together in groups. Women, however, are
too emotional and, perhaps, too intellectually inferior to be worthy of
discussion. And, again, if a woman brings up the claim that men are
being patriarchal or misogynistic, she is berated for being divisive or
deviating from the important discussion (you know, the one the men are
having). </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I find the discussions on this listserv to be very mean
spirited, and most importantly, disorganizing. This is not the mode of
discourse folks should use who want to organize for economic and social
justice. You cannot work towards building a mass movement if you can't
stop being an asshole. </div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Sarah
Lazare <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sarah.lazare@gmail.com" target="_blank">sarah.lazare@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Rachel,<br>
<br>
We've very much appreciated your comments on this thread. Thanks for
your strong feminist voice and leadership. We've often found that it's
the moments when we're trying the hardest and putting ourselves out
there the most that we face the greatest attack. I hope everyone who's
had the good luck to work with Rachel can find your own way of showing
her your love and appreciation. Here's to building a culture of
liberatory, respectful debate and discussion within our movements.<br>
<br>
In Solidarity,<br>
Sarah Lazare and Brook Celeste<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Rickman, Aimee N <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:arickman@illinois.edu" target="_blank">arickman@illinois.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<div>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Times New Roman;">Whoah.<br>
<br>
<div><br>
<div style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 13px;">
<div style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 13px;">
<div style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 13px;">
<div style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 13px;">
<div style="font-size: 13px;">
<div style="font-size: 13px;">
<div style="font-size: 13px;">
<div style="direction: ltr;">
<div style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 13px;"><span
style="font-family: Courier New;">**************</span><font size="1">Apologies
for any random question marks my system has weirdly added to this email<font><span
style="font-family: Courier New;">********************</span></font></font></div>
<div style="font-size: 13px;"><font face="'Times New Roman'"><br>
</font></div>
<font color="#000000" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:occupycu-bounces@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank">occupycu-bounces@lists.chambana.net</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:occupycu-bounces@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank">occupycu-bounces@lists.chambana.net</a>]
on behalf of E. Wayne Johnson [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ewj@pigsqq.org" target="_blank">ewj@pigsqq.org</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 12, 2012 3:58 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Rachel Storm<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net" target="_blank">peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>;
David Green; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank">occupycu@lists.chambana.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [OccupyCU] [Peace-discuss] [sf-core]
Another Guantánamo prisoner death highlights Democrats' hypocrisy<br>
</font><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px; font-family: Times New Roman;">
<div>How does silly and childish compare with shrewish and
bitchy on the value scale?<br>
<br>
<br>
On 9/13/2012 3:08 AM, Rachel Storm wrote:
<blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><font><font
face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">David,</font></font></font>
<div><font color="#000000"><font><font
face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</font></font></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><font><font
face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I sent this email to Occupy, not
Peace Discuss and your question illustrates precisely what I seek to
illuminate. Listservs are designed for the people on them. Not others
and the assumption isn't that they will be forwarded willy nilly to
folks off of the list. I expect that from people typically, but not
from people I am trying to build movements with--we can do better. I'm
not going to engage with you, when you seek no understanding and only
want to ignite debate. It's silly and childish.</font></font></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><font><font
face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</font></font></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><font><font
face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Rachel<br>
</font></font></font><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:46 PM,
David Green <span dir="ltr">
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">davegreen84@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<div
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: tahoma,new york,times,serif;">
<div>
<div><span>"There is nothing revolutionary about
conversations here. I can listen to white men man'splain in desperate
pissing contests virtually anywhere--that's what patriarchy continues
to afford me."</span></div>
<div
style="font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent; font-family: tahoma,new york,times,serif;">
<span></span> </div>
</div>
<div
style="font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent; font-family: tahoma,new york,times,serif;">
<span>Rachel, do you think that an individual's views can
be reduced and/or dismissed on account of their age, race, and/or
gender?</span></div>
<div
style="font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent; font-family: tahoma,new york,times,serif;">
<span></span> </div>
<div
style="font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent; font-family: tahoma,new york,times,serif;">
<span>David Green<var></var></span></div>
<div><br>
<blockquote
style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">
<div
style="font-family: tahoma,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div
style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial">
<div readonly=""
style="border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 5px 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: 0pt; min-height: 0px; font-size: 0px;"></div>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> C.
G. Estabrook <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:carl@newsfromneptune.com" target="_blank">carl@newsfromneptune.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
Rachel Storm <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rachelstrm@gmail.com" target="_blank">rachelstrm@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net"
target="_blank">
peace-discuss@anti-war.net</a>; "<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank">occupycu@lists.chambana.net</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:occupyCU@lists.chambana.net"
target="_blank">occupyCU@lists.chambana.net</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Wednesday, September 12, 2012 8:24 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] [sf-core] Another Guantánamo prisoner
death highlights Democrats' hypocrisy<br>
</font></div>
<div>
<div><br>
I thought the local Occupy group supported the efforts of AWARE against
US war and racism abroad - even to participating in our demonstrations.<br>
<br>
That's why I posted to the "OccupyCU" list information about the
ongoing scandal of Guantanamo, which is scanted in the corporate media
(as is Manning's persecution, etc.).
<br>
<br>
--CGE<br>
<br>
On Sep 12, 2012, at 12:16 AM, Rachel Storm <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rachelstrm@gmail.com" target="_blank">rachelstrm@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> I must share this...<br>
> <br>
> I've been both terribly bored and fairly annoyed at how this
Occupy listserv is being used. I am someone that cannot regularly
attend Occupy meetings and for me, it's important to be able to stay
connected, but what is Occupy here--in this communication space? What
is worth occupying? There is nothing revolutionary about conversations
here. I can listen to white men man'splain in desperate pissing
contests virtually anywhere--that's what patriarchy continues to afford
me. I'm tired of having to ask men in the movement to check their
privilege. It shouldn't have to be asked-- I hear men in the movement
say they want revolution, but I don't see willingness to do the work.
We are failing to model what we seek. We need more imagination than
this. We can do better.
<br>
> <br>
> • We can value dialogue over debate. Modeling that we're a
community of people seeking understanding, rather than trying to get
their word in edgewise. Those with privilege in the movement (men,
white folks, etc.) can step back, make space, talk less/listen more.
This isn't hard to do and makes a world of difference. (Just count the
number of women, people of color, etc. actively engaged on these C-U
activist lists or being listened to at meetings and you'll see how deep
this problem is.)<br>
> • We can "check each other" in an act of care. Knowing that
we're not perfect, but we're trying and we have a responsibility to
help one another grow where possible. We can tell those who are
dominating conversation to step back, to ask for clarification, and to
listen.<br>
> • We can reject "occupation" as our language in solidarity
with native peoples all over North America. We can privilege people of
color and women's voices--knowing these voices ought to drive the
movement that seeks decolonization and an end to marginalization.
<br>
> • We can spend more time imagining what we want, alternatives,
and raging where it matters!<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> In the past month alone, I've witnessed a silencing conversation
around the rape allegations facing Assange that signals to me--as a
woman--that the same men that say they care about women in the movement
are no where to be found when it comes time to stand up against
violence against women. I've been to meetings where women's voices were
rarely heard--and I know my sisters had plenty to say!
<br>
> I am reminded of Adrienne Rich who cautioned a white-led feminist
movement, "Without addressing the whiteness of white feminism, our
movement will turn in on itself and collapse."
<br>
> <br>
> There are other voices we need in this space. This local
organizing will not last unless we turn our attention to these matters.
<br>
> <br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_s3X0uW9Ec&feature=player_embedded"
target="_blank">
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_s3X0uW9Ec&feature=player_embedded</a><br>
> <br>
> love and rage,<br>
> <br>
> RS<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<pre><hr width="90%" size="4">
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</pre>
</blockquote>
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<div><br>
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<span><font color="#888888">-- <br>
Scott Kimball
<div>Project Organizer</div>
<div>American Federation of Teachers<br>
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<div>Higher Education Project</div>
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<div><br>
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-- <br>
</div>
</div>
==========================================<br>
Ingbert Schmidt<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://ingbert.org/" target="_blank">http://ingbert.org/</a>
|| skype/twitter/etc.: spacesoon<br>
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"Dream in a pragmatic way."<br>
-Aldous Huxley<br>
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