<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:tahoma, new york, times, serif;font-size:10pt"><div><span>David, I was mixing up apples and oranges here to a certain extent. There are holocaust deniers who are conspiracy theorists, who obviously are not worth our time. There are those who think that holocaust deniers may themselves be part of a conspiracy to destroy Israel and exterminate Jews; they should be worth our time, because unlike holocaust deniers, they have the power to further their agenda; e.g., Daniel Pipes (who wrote a book criticizing conspiracy theorists in order to justify being a conspiracy theorist in regard to Islam); Islamophobia has become central to the "paranoid style" in our political culture for the past 20-30 years. Cointelpro, etc., are of course well worth our time; that's a real conspiracy. And of course there has always been a cover-up of the genuine <var id="yui-ie-cursor"></var>roots of
9/11, and the nature of the immediate response, although I'm not sure that's any more a conspiracy then all the nonsense we have to endure about the "debt crisis" and the "fiscal cliff." It's just what elites and the corporate media do.</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13.33px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span></span> </div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13.33px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><a href="http://mondoweiss.net/2010/09/a-higher-racism-the-new-justifications-for-islamophobia-and-pre-emptive-violence.html">http://mondoweiss.net/2010/09/a-higher-racism-the-new-justifications-for-islamophobia-and-pre-emptive-violence.html</a></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13.33px; font-style: normal;
background-color: transparent;"><span></span> </div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13.33px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span></span> </div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13.33px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span>DG</span></div><div><br><blockquote style="padding-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid;"> <div style="font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 10pt;"> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <div style="margin: 5px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); height: 0px; line-height: 0; font-size: 0px;" class="hr" contentEditable="false" readonly="true"></div>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> David Johnson <dlj725@microsoft.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Peace-discuss <peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net>; David Green <davegreen84@yahoo.com> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, November 23, 2012 12:21 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Peace-discuss] a note on Holocaust denial<br> </font> </div> <br>
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<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span>"
Spending 15 years studying Holocuast denial, JFK conspiracy theories & 9/11
conspiracy theories, etc. should be seen as a waste of time and a distraction by
anyone who is serious about the real problems in the world. "</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><font size="4" face="Arial"><b>Norman Finkelstein has written extensively about this
phenomena, that being " The Holocaust Industry ", that has not only made
certain people money but has more importently, as you described David, been used
to distract and justify the nazi like behaviour of the Israeli
government.</b></font></span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><b><font size="4" face="Arial"></font></b></span> </div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><b><font size="4" face="Arial">In terms of the JFK assasination and the 9/11 attack FACTS, as
opposed to theories or governmant cover-ups like the Bush appointed 9/11
commision and the Warren commission, I would respectfully
disagree.</font></b></span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><b><font size="4" face="Arial">Kennedy assasination, M.L. King assasination, Malcolm
X assasination, and the 9/11 attack FACTS should be studied and
discussed along with documented facts of : COINTELPRO, CIA sponsored coups and
assasinations, rigged electons, false flag
actions, etc..</font></b></span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><b><font size="4" face="Arial">The importence is two fold ;</font></b></span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><b><font size="4" face="Arial">1) To know what the U.S. government has done in the
past on behalf of the 1 %, so that the American people will know and hence
not believe the lies of weapons of mass destruction, etc.. to justify military
actions and the abuse of civil liberties.</font></b></span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><b><font size="4" face="Arial">2) When dealing with any group of criminals like the U.S,
ruling class 1%, one must know their M.O., which will also allow the American
people to know what to expect and hopefully how to prevent / deal with it in the
future.</font></b></span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><b><font size="4" face="Arial"></font></b></span> </div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><b><font size="4" face="Arial">Of course since 9/11 2001 the ruling class and the corporate
media has done an extensive propoganda campaign to convince many people in the
U.S. that any accusation ( no matter how well documented )
of collaboration / misdeeds by the wealthy and powerful is "
conspiracy theory " and hence not true.</font></b></span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><b><font size="4" face="Arial">As if the wealthy and the powerful don't coordinate actions or
even talk to each other.</font></b></span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><b><font size="4" face="Arial">I do agree David that one should not spend too much time
dwelling on these sort of things, however</font></b> <b><font size="4" face="Arial">to ignore the criminal history and past practices of the
1 % ruling class is at our own peril.</font></b></span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><b><font size="4" face="Arial">David Johnson</font></b></span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span> </span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><b><font size="4" face="Arial"></font></b></span> </div></div>
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<div style="font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228); font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a title="davegreen84@yahoo.com" href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com">David
Green</a> </div>
<div style="font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b> <a title="peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss</a> </div>
<div style="font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:47
PM</div>
<div style="font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Peace-discuss] a note on
Holocaust denial</div>
<div><br></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 10pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<div><span>The denial that I'm worried about is, among many other things,
regarding the willful and planned Israeli ethnic cleansing of the
Palestinians, begun in earnest in 1947 and continuing at the present time.
It's important, because it's widespread and politically
consequential.</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span>The
small cult of Holocaust denial has had to be exaggerated out of all
proportion, partly in order to justify Israeli depredations, as well as to
distract attention from ongoing American-sponsored atrocities around the
world.</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span>Chomsky
says that in the U.S., we have done the right thing by not suppressing
Holocaust denial, as they have in some countries in Europe. Suppression and
illegality only attracts more attention to the phenomenon. In the U.S., people
are allowed to deny the Holocaust, they're recognized as lunatics, and nobody
cares except a few individuals like Deborah Lipstadt who have made careers out
of exaggerating the problem.</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span>Spending
15 years studying Holocuast denial, JFK conspiracy theories & 9/11
conspiracy theories, etc. should be seen as a waste of time and a distraction
by anyone who is serious about the real problems in the world.</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span>But
Holocaust denial has served well those who continue to deny what Israel has
become--of course, only with the help of American support.<var id="yiv1863016950yui-ie-cursor"></var></span></div>
<div><br>
<blockquote style="padding-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid;">
<div style="font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 10pt;">
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<div style="margin: 5px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); height: 0px; line-height: 0; font-size: 0px;" class="yiv1863016950hr"></div><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> David Gehrig
<david-cu@nukulele.org><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net
<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, November
22, 2012 2:37 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
[Peace-discuss] a note on Holocaust denial<br></font></div><br>Folks, some
thoughts on Holocaust denial, from someone who's studied it for fifteen
years. It's going only to peace-discuss.<br><br>I think some background
would be helpful here.<br><br>Holocaust denial is a conspiracy theory of
neo-Nazi origins claiming that literally millions of Jews have secretly
collaborated on a global fraud orders of magnitude larger and more complex
than any James Bond villain could even dream of.<br><br>Intellectually, it's
on par with the folks who think that NASA and Stanley Kubrick faked the moon
landing. But on top of its idiocy, it adds a thick, wide, and inescapable
layer of antisemitic wackdoodlism.<br><br>Here's what I mean. The Watergate
scandal involved under fifty conspirators, was protected by the most
powerful man in the world, but it still rattled apart in just two years. The
conspiracy theory that Holocaust deniers push requires not fifty Jews, not
five hundred Jews, not five thousand Jews, not fifty thousand Jews, not five
hundred thousand Jews, but five million Jews -- roughly a quarter of the
world's Jewish population -- to stick impeccably to a criminal script
flawlessly for over sixty years. As such, it ascribes to the Jews an
inexplicable and inhuman capacity for criminality of the largest imaginable
dimensions.<br><br>What would you say to someone who tells you that one
quarter of all people of Italian descent are active in the Cosa Nostra? You
would rightly assail his idiocy, his paranoia, and his bigotry. Yet this is
not that different from what Holocaust deniers claim about the world's
Jews.<br><br>It is like a burning cross. There is no dignified way to turn
your eyes and pretend you didn't see it when it happens in your own
town.<br><br>If there is interest, I'd be happy to give a talk on the topic
-- its neo-Nazi origins, and its attempt in the mid-2000's to repaint itself
as "anti-Zionist" rather than "pro-Adolf" in order to try recruiting on the
progressive left, while telling exactly the same lies. Few on the left have
been fooled. But, as we have learned locally, few is not none.<br><br>David
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