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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>David,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>What puzzles me, and maybe you can enlighten me on
this, is how </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>neo-liberal /neo-conservative Israeli
government apologists like Gehrig, can honestly with a straight face, call
Jewish people who are critical of the actions of the government of Israel "
self-hating Jews " and " anti-semites " ???</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I guess if Gehrig accuses you of either, that would
put you in the noble and honored category as Norman Finkelstein and several of
the survivors / fighters of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising who spoke out against the
bombing of Gaza.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>David Johnson</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=davegreen84@yahoo.com href="mailto:davegreen84@yahoo.com">David
Green</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=david-cu@nukulele.org
href="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org">David Gehrig</A> ; <A
title=peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 23, 2012 8:53
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Peace-discuss] a note on
Holocaust denial</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; COLOR: #000; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<DIV><SPAN>"It has its own local Patient Zero."</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px"><SPAN>Who
might that be?</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px"><SPAN>I've
been quite clear (per Chomsky & Finkelstein) about the fact that
inappropriate emphasis on the power of the Israel Lobby borders on
anti-semitism--not the kind that will actually bring harm to Jews, but the
kind that will discredit the Palestinian cause, as well as distract Americans
interested in that cause from the nature of the workings of their own support
for Israel in the Middle East.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px"><SPAN>There
are some on the left who can be fairly accused of professing "the socialism of
fools." </SPAN><SPAN>Nevertheless, there is an overwhelming tendency to
carefully separate criticism of Israel from criticism of Jews--to a
fault.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times,
serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px"><SPAN>Then
there are those who profess the liberalism of fools. In the 1960s, some of
these were honest enough to begin to call themselves neoconservatives, and
display their imperial mentality for all to see. Others cling to the hope that
the existence of the "new anti-semitism" on the left will vindicate their
support for Israel, and U.S. foreign policy in general, as some sort of a
humanitarian mission.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px"><SPAN>Most
liberal Jews, now repelled by Netanyahu and those to his right, find
themselves confused and silenced. They vote for Obama on the basis of identity
politics.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px"><SPAN>Please
keep me informed on how the witchhunt for anti-semites on the left is
proceeding. From what I hear, the fascists in Greece, Hungary, and Florida
like to wave the Israeli flag. That isn't at all surprisng, given the legacy
of Israel's relationship with apartheid South Africa. When it comes to digging
up some non-Muslim anti-semites, the left is pretty much all that's left. They
won't find many, so they'll have to invent them. Maybe the F.B.I. can train
some informants to pay mentally ill leftists to say nasty things about
Jews.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px"><SPAN>I
would add that David Gehrig has stooped so low as to enter comments using my
name on the Daily Illini website to try to frame me as an anti-semite. On that
basis, even beyond his comments here, he can't be taken
seriously.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px"><SPAN>I
predict that you won't be hearing from him on this list anymore, and not be
because of any censorship.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px"><SPAN>David
Green</SPAN></DIV><SPAN></SPAN>
<DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; MARGIN-TOP: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px">
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px"
class=hr contentEditable=false readonly="true"></DIV><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> David Gehrig
<david-cu@nukulele.org><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net
<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, November 23,
2012 6:12 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[Peace-discuss] a note on Holocaust denial<BR></FONT></DIV><BR>All I can say
is, wow.<BR><BR>Folks, it's really very simple.<BR><BR>There is a
forty-year-old strain of antisemitic propaganda which started with the
fascist right and is now reshaping itself to build an audience on the
left.<BR><BR>It has made its first appearance on the left here in
CU.<BR><BR>It has its own local Patient Zero.<BR><BR>I was hoping for at
least one response that actually addressed the topic directly, but
apparently I was being too optimistic.<BR><BR>If I were asked, point blank,
whether this list actually cares about antisemitism in CU as anything other
than a trigger for pre-cooked tirades, at this point I'd have to say no, not
to any noticeable degree, except apparently as a springboard to launch into
a discussion about the JFK assassination.<BR><BR>Like I said --
wow.<BR><BR>@%<<BR><BR>On 2012-11-23 12:21, David Johnson wrote:<BR>>
" Spending 15 years studying Holocuast denial, JFK conspiracy<BR>>
theories & 9/11 conspiracy theories, etc. should be seen as a waste
of<BR>> time and a distraction by anyone who is serious about the
real<BR>> problems in the world. "<BR>> <BR>> NORMAN FINKELSTEIN
HAS WRITTEN EXTENSIVELY ABOUT THIS PHENOMENA,<BR>> THAT BEING " THE
HOLOCAUST INDUSTRY ", THAT HAS NOT ONLY MADE CERTAIN<BR>> PEOPLE MONEY
BUT HAS MORE IMPORTENTLY, AS YOU DESCRIBED DAVID, BEEN<BR>> USED TO
DISTRACT AND JUSTIFY THE NAZI LIKE BEHAVIOUR OF THE ISRAELI<BR>>
GOVERNMENT.<BR>> <BR>> IN TERMS OF THE JFK ASSASINATION AND THE 9/11
ATTACK FACTS, AS<BR>> OPPOSED TO THEORIES OR GOVERNMANT COVER-UPS LIKE
THE BUSH APPOINTED<BR>> 9/11 COMMISION AND THE WARREN COMMISSION, I
WOULD RESPECTFULLY<BR>> DISAGREE.<BR>> KENNEDY ASSASINATION, M.L. KING
ASSASINATION, MALCOLM X ASSASINATION,<BR>> AND THE 9/11 ATTACK
FACTS SHOULD BE STUDIED AND DISCUSSED ALONG WITH<BR>> DOCUMENTED
FACTS OF : COINTELPRO, CIA SPONSORED COUPS AND<BR>> ASSASINATIONS, RIGGED
ELECTONS, FALSE FLAG ACTIONS, ETC..<BR>> THE IMPORTENCE IS TWO FOLD
;<BR>> 1) TO KNOW WHAT THE U.S. GOVERNMENT HAS DONE IN THE PAST
ON BEHALF OF<BR>> THE 1 %, SO THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL KNOW AND
HENCE NOT BELIEVE<BR>> THE LIES OF WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, ETC.. TO
JUSTIFY MILITARY<BR>> ACTIONS AND THE ABUSE OF CIVIL
LIBERTIES.<BR>> 2) WHEN DEALING WITH ANY GROUP OF CRIMINALS LIKE THE U.S,
RULING<BR>> CLASS 1%, ONE MUST KNOW THEIR M.O., WHICH WILL ALSO ALLOW THE
AMERICAN<BR>> PEOPLE TO KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT AND HOPEFULLY HOW TO PREVENT
/ DEAL WITH<BR>> IT IN THE FUTURE.<BR>> <BR>> OF COURSE SINCE 9/11
2001 THE RULING CLASS AND THE CORPORATE MEDIA<BR>> HAS DONE AN EXTENSIVE
PROPOGANDA CAMPAIGN TO CONVINCE MANY PEOPLE IN<BR>> THE U.S. THAT ANY
ACCUSATION ( NO MATTER HOW WELL DOCUMENTED )<BR>>
OF COLLABORATION / MISDEEDS BY THE WEALTHY AND POWERFUL IS
"<BR>> CONSPIRACY THEORY " AND HENCE NOT TRUE.<BR>> AS IF THE WEALTHY
AND THE POWERFUL DON'T COORDINATE ACTIONS OR EVEN<BR>> TALK TO EACH
OTHER.<BR>> <BR>> I DO AGREE DAVID THAT ONE SHOULD NOT SPEND TOO MUCH
TIME DWELLING ON<BR>> THESE SORT OF THINGS, HOWEVER TO IGNORE THE
CRIMINAL HISTORY AND PAST<BR>> PRACTICES OF THE 1 % RULING
CLASS IS AT OUR OWN PERIL.<BR>> <BR>> DAVID JOHNSON<BR>>
<BR>>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>>> FROM: David
Green<BR>>> TO: peace-discuss<BR>>> SENT: Thursday, November 22,
2012 2:47 PM<BR>>> SUBJECT: Re: [Peace-discuss] a note on Holocaust
denial<BR>>> <BR>>> The denial that I'm worried about is, among
many other things, regarding the willful and planned Israeli ethnic
cleansing of the Palestinians, begun in earnest in 1947 and continuing at
the present time. It's important, because it's widespread and politically
consequential.<BR>>> <BR>>> The small cult of Holocaust denial
has had to be exaggerated out of all proportion, partly in order to justify
Israeli depredations, as well as to distract attention from ongoing
American-sponsored atrocities around the world.<BR>>> <BR>>>
Chomsky says that in the U.S., we have done the right thing by not
suppressing Holocaust denial, as they have in some countries in Europe.
Suppression and illegality only attracts more attention to the phenomenon.
In the U.S., people are allowed to deny the Holocaust, they're recognized as
lunatics, and nobody cares except a few individuals like Deborah Lipstadt
who have made careers out of exaggerating the problem.<BR>>>
<BR>>> Spending 15 years studying Holocuast denial, JFK conspiracy
theories & 9/11 conspiracy theories, etc. should be seen as a waste of
time and a distraction by anyone who is serious about the real problems in
the world.<BR>>> <BR>>> But Holocaust denial has served well
those who continue to deny what Israel has become--of course, only with the
help of American support.<BR>>> <BR>>>> FROM: David Gehrig
<<A href="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org"
ymailto="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org">david-cu@nukulele.org</A>><BR>>>>
TO: <A href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</A><BR>>>>
SENT: Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:37 PM<BR>>>> SUBJECT:
[Peace-discuss] a note on Holocaust denial<BR>>>> <BR>>>>
Folks, some thoughts on Holocaust denial, from someone who's studied it for
fifteen years. It's going only to peace-discuss.<BR>>>>
<BR>>>> I think some background would be helpful
here.<BR>>>> <BR>>>> Holocaust denial is a conspiracy
theory of neo-Nazi origins claiming that literally millions of Jews have
secretly collaborated on a global fraud orders of magnitude larger and more
complex than any James Bond villain could even dream of.<BR>>>>
<BR>>>> Intellectually, it's on par with the folks who think that
NASA and Stanley Kubrick faked the moon landing. But on top of its idiocy,
it adds a thick, wide, and inescapable layer of antisemitic
wackdoodlism.<BR>>>> <BR>>>> Here's what I mean. The
Watergate scandal involved under fifty conspirators, was protected by the
most powerful man in the world, but it still rattled apart in just two
years. The conspiracy theory that Holocaust deniers push requires not fifty
Jews, not five hundred Jews, not five thousand Jews, not fifty thousand
Jews, not five hundred thousand Jews, but five million Jews -- roughly a
quarter of the world's Jewish population -- to stick impeccably to a
criminal script flawlessly for over sixty years. As such, it ascribes to the
Jews an inexplicable and inhuman capacity for criminality of the largest
imaginable dimensions.<BR>>>> <BR>>>> What would you say
to someone who tells you that one quarter of all people of Italian descent
are active in the Cosa Nostra? You would rightly assail his idiocy, his
paranoia, and his bigotry. Yet this is not that different from what
Holocaust deniers claim about the world's Jews.<BR>>>>
<BR>>>> It is like a burning cross. There is no dignified way to
turn your eyes and pretend you didn't see it when it happens in your own
town.<BR>>>> <BR>>>> If there is interest, I'd be happy to
give a talk on the topic -- its neo-Nazi origins, and its attempt in the
mid-2000's to repaint itself as "anti-Zionist" rather than "pro-Adolf" in
order to try recruiting on the progressive left, while telling exactly the
same lies. Few on the left have been fooled. But, as we have learned
locally, few is not none.<BR>>>> <BR>>>> David
@%<<BR>>>>
_______________________________________________<BR>>>>
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href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
ymailto="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</A><BR>>>>
<A href="http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss"
target=_blank>http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</A>
[1]<BR>>> <BR>>> -------------------------<BR>>>
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target=_blank>http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</A><BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> Links:<BR>> ------<BR>> [1] <A
href="http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss"
target=_blank>http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</A><BR>>
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