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<DIV><FONT size=4 face=Arial>Absolutely !</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ewj@pigsqq.org href="mailto:ewj@pigsqq.org">"E. Wayne Johnson
朱稳森"</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=stuartnlevy@gmail.com
href="mailto:stuartnlevy@gmail.com">Stuart Levy</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net
href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, January 08, 2013 3:35
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Peace-discuss] drones and
the human cost of war</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>There may be 'bad guys' in some of those foreign lands,<BR>but
seriously folks, the 'worst guys' are some where around<BR>Washington DC and
New York City.<BR><BR><BR>On 01/09/13 1:18, Stuart Levy wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:50EC5501.8080701@gmail.com type="cite">Hello Mr.
Helbig. Glad you are on this list, to push the discussion beyond the
choir preaching to ourselves.<BR><BR>The article you post makes a familiar
point - this seems to be the heart of it:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">pinpoint strikes kill terrorist chieftains<BR>and
their immediate adherents (or, at worst, their willing hosts)
while<BR>sparing the family next door.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Who could object to
killing only the truly deserving bad guys? We heard this kind of
line during the Iraq War's use of "precision weapons", during the Israeli
bombardments of Gaza, etc.<BR><BR>But there are big problems with
it. <BR><BR> - The "intelligence" system, which is
supposed to identify those deserving bad guys, is flawed.
Remember how Guantanamo prison got filled with the worst of the worst, many
of whom turned out to be just ordinary people in Afghanistan who'd been
turned in by other Afghanis for the bounties we were offering? That
same corruption can apply to the targeting of people for drone strikes, as
for example here. Note the comment that the bounty system
actually encourages turning in innocent people, since they're less likely to
have peers who can retaliate.<BR><BR> <A
href="http://www.alternet.org/story/155723/i_met_a_16-year-old_kid._3_days_later_obama_killed_him?page=entire"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.alternet.org/story/155723/i_met_a_16-year-old_kid._3_days_later_obama_killed_him?page=entire</A><BR><BR><BR>
- The job of a bureaucracy is to hide faults in the work it does.
John Brennan, nominated yesterday for head of the CIA (!), said
publicly in 2011 that there had not been a single collateral death due to
drone strikes. In April, 2012, he corrected that to "exceedingly
rare". Independent estimates suggest that several hundred civilians
had been killed among the 2500-3300 killed by drone strikes since 2004 in
Pakistan - a sixth or more - and that the numbers of "high level" militants
killed was only about 2% of the total.<BR><BR> <A
href="http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/04/30/11475659-us-official-acknowledges-drone-strikes-says-civilian-deaths-exceedingly-rare"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/04/30/11475659-us-official-acknowledges-drone-strikes-says-civilian-deaths-exceedingly-rare</A><BR><BR>
- Drones aren't necessarily used in the sparing way this article leads you
to think. (If they're extremely precise, and the job's not
getting done, why not just use more of them?) Robert Naiman of
Just Foreign Policy, who was part of a delegation to Pakistan which spoke to
the US ambassador there, wrote about it (and posted it on this list last
October 5th):<BR> <A
href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-naiman/americans-press-us-ambass_b_1941919.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-naiman/americans-press-us-ambass_b_1941919.html</A><BR><BR>
He cites several studies looking into "double tap" drone strikes, where,
after having bombed some supposed militant, the operators wait for rescuers
to rush to the site and then bombs it again. Presumably the theory is
that fellow militants might be among those rushing to the aid of injured
people, but <BR><BR> - Who is the "enemy"
anyway?<BR> A few months ago we learned that
the Obama administration has adopted a high standard for identifying
militants killed: any male of military age in an area where hostilities are
going on is deemed a militant unless there's compelling reason to think
otherwise.<BR><BR> Just last week, a drone
strike in Pakistan killed a number of militants including a high-level
Taliban commander, Mullah Nazir. Who is he? Well, he had a
truce with the Pakistani government, and had been actively working for a
peace treaty.<BR><BR> <A
href="http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/letters/06-Jan-2013/drones-killing-our-allies"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/letters/06-Jan-2013/drones-killing-our-allies</A><BR><BR>This
letter notes, "According to observers the timing of the recent drone attacks
is very significant; only days ago militants had offered peace negotiations
to government and the government and Pakistan Army were also seeing peaceful
solution to end the ten years of bloodshed in the country and had agreed to
negotiate with the militants to control growing militancy and raising
suicide attacks in the country. This untimely drone attack, and killing of
Mullah Nazir will affect these peace negotiations." - and points out that
there had been a similar drone attack in the past killing another militant
engaged in peace talks.<BR><BR><BR> This behavior is
consistent with an imperial US that thrives on endless war. It's not
so consistent with the story of the peace-loving US, fighting reluctantly
against implacable enemies, which you'd be led to imagine from reading this
New York Post article.<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>On 1/8/13 6:06 AM, Roger Helbig wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
cite=mid:CALZ0NqXsmK4rJErkETCu1VpdOkozv0uycKWj9zN200N7OXrQBg@mail.gmail.com
type="cite">
<DIV>just saw this - he writes better than me - sorry that he works for
Fox, but he still makes sense despite my strong bias against Fox thanks to
my watching (paid admission both times) Outfoxed twice!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">16) Drone
Cold Truth--LTC Ralph Peters, USA (Ret.) </SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">New York
Post</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">January 7,
2013 </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Pg.
19</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Drone Cold
Truth</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Sparing
innocents, not terrorists</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">By Ralph
Peters</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">The
inexhaustible America-haters on our domestic left are absolutely correct
that drones — unmanned aerial vehicles, or UAVs — are morally ambiguous
weapons. All weapons of war are morally ambiguous, as are even “just wars”
waged for purely defensive purposes. All wars violate a universal
commandment: Thou shalt not kill.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">But in this
imperfect world, we sometimes must kill if we are to survive. In developed
societies (such as our own) that strive toward moral behavior, killing
enemies in a conflict is regulated by laws, conventions and ethics. At
times, as in the city bombings of World War II, we cast our strictures
aside in a desperate hour. But we really do our best to spare the
innocent.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Warfare is
imprecise, though, shaped by confusion and emotion as much as by plans.
It’s unlikely that humans will ever eliminate war or find a way to wage it
so “cleanly” that every noncombatant will be safe.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">But —
contrary to the reflexive claims of the left — UAVs mark a significant in
sparing the innocent: morally ambiguous still, but less so than an
artillery shell or a cruise missile.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Never
before has a state been able to target its deadly enemies with such
precision. And contrary to one of the countless myths of the left, we’re
trigger-happy. Under rules adopted in the Bush years and broadly retained
now, targets must be screened and approved at multiple levels in a process
so rigorous that, frequently, our enemies escape. It’s hard to see how we
could fight more ethically.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Instead of
bombing a city or invading yet another country where terrorists have found
refuge, pinpoint strikes kill terrorist chieftains and their immediate
adherents (or, at worst, their willing hosts) while sparing the family
next door. But our critics, foreign and domestic, hold us to an impossible
standard, questioning whether we have the right to kill enemies proud of
their resolve to murder us. Those same critics revel in the rare drone
strikes that go awry as evidence of our alleged savagery.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">But there
will always be mistakes in war, because war is waged by human beings, even
if they command brilliant machines (which themselves may err). What should
be deemed remarkable is how few innocents have become casualties in
proportion to the number of confirmed terrorists eliminated. That ratio is
without precedent in warfare.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">What should
trouble all of us — especially those of genuine conscience on the left —
is the hard left’s willful blindness to the atrocities of the terrorists
we hunt.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">These men
slaughter teachers, doctors and aid workers, anonymous shoppers in the
marketplace and elementary-school students, especially girls. (In Islamist
terror’s homelands, Newtown is everywhere.)</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Yet
leftists romanticize America’s enemies, excusing their sins while
exaggerating our missteps. And when other accusations fall short, they
trot out the N-word of security affairs, “assassination,” equating
terrorist chieftains with JFK.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">The hard
left’s position is ultimately simple: America is bad, our troops are
monsters and attacks on our known enemies are criminal. And drones are
hateful because they not only make our military more effective, but also
because they spare the innocent: For leftists, it’s better if we kill more
civilians, since that reinforces their dogma.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">It’s also
interesting that, while the left personalized every action of President
George W. Bush, President Obama largely gets a pass, as if he’s being
duped by bloodthirsty generals. But Obama has learned to stop worrying and
love that drone: For him, UAVs are effective, politically convenient,
diplomatically defensible and (given the cost of ground interventions)
cheap.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Yes, there
are moral questions. There always will be in warfare. Practical issues
arise, as well, such as the limits of sovereignty in a world of porous
borders. And, yes, there are legal and ethical matters that remain
unresolved.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">But there’s
one more point that the left and its fellow travelers in the commentariat
get wrong: their claim that drone strikes only create more
terrorists.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Well, no.
Drone attacks deprive terror organizations of experienced leaders and
fanatical executors. And a village kid mad that his goat ran away from the
blast doesn’t automatically turn into a suicide bomber.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Do drone
strikes excite anger? You bet: not least, among the terrorists and their
supporters (including sympathizers here at home). For the rest of us,
terrorists slain by UAVs mean soldiers and Marines come home alive — and a
safer world.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Ralph
Peters is Fox News’ strategic analyst and a retired US Army
officer.</SPAN><BR><BR></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 9:30 PM, Roger Helbig <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:rwhelbig@gmail.com" target=_blank
moz-do-not-send="true">rwhelbig@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>since when are you a judge in an international court
of law - maybe if we had had armed drones in 2000, Bin Laden would have
been taken out and 9/11 would not have happened. You and most of
the so-called peace establishment believe the propagandists and ignore
reality. <BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Karen Medina
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:kmedina67@gmail.com" target=_blank
moz-do-not-send="true">kmedina67@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>> But the US has no right to wage war in the
first place.<BR><BR>That is, of course, very true. But it is the hard
to convince enough<BR>people of
this.<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Peace-discuss
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
target=_blank
moz-do-not-send="true">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</A><BR><A
href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss"
target=_blank
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR>
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