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    David, thanks for this.   I'd worked on this one, and struggled to
    bring enough facets together to suggest how the cycle of
    interventions (a) sustains itself and (b) fails to live up to the
    humanitarian goals used to sell them ("our military saves lives")
    while (c) keeping enough supporting text to back up its own
    arguments better than a bunch of bumper stickers would, to make it
    harder to dismiss what we're saying as just coming from a bunch of
    cranks.<br>
    <br>
    Maybe this is too much to ask of a 2-page flyer?   Do you see pieces
    it would have been better to leave out of this one, to make more
    room for the rest and for eye-leading white space?<br>
    <br>
    I do like the question-and-answer form, especially if we can answer
    questions that people are actually tempted to raise, as with the
    recent article about use of drones.<br>
    <br>
    I don't mean this to sound snarky - I'd really like for our flyers
    to be eye-catching enough that casual readers will want to read
    through them.   <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/3/13 11:37 AM, David Johnson
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:8533FE77FB034D479ECCBC0F5211C19A@owneryr3fp4mcb"
      type="cite">
      <title>flyer2013-02-02-greenwald</title>
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      <div><strong><font face="Arial">It's good information but it is
            too much information for a flyer.</font></strong></div>
      <div><strong></strong> </div>
      <div><strong><font face="Arial">In my opinion, it would be better
            to have less information and larger font, maybe even a photo
            or graphic, and then an AWARE web-site address for more
            detailed info.</font></strong></div>
      <div><strong><font face="Arial">Practice answers to questions or
            statements from people  would be good as well.</font></strong></div>
      <div> </div>
      <div><strong><font face="Arial">David Johnson</font></strong></div>
      <div> </div>
      <blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT:
        5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
        <div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
        <div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color:
          black"><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            title="galliher@illinois.edu"
            href="mailto:galliher@illinois.edu">Carl G. Estabrook</a> </div>
        <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
            moz-do-not-send="true" title="stuartnlevy@gmail.com"
            href="mailto:stuartnlevy@gmail.com">Stuart Levy</a> </div>
        <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b> <a
            moz-do-not-send="true" title="peace-discuss@anti-war.net"
            href="mailto:peace-discuss@anti-war.net">Peace Discuss</a> </div>
        <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 03,
          2013 10:56 AM</div>
        <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re:
          [Peace-discuss] AWARE - Sat's demo (& flyer,for re-view)
          and Sunday's meeting at White Horse</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        Nice work. 
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>The flyer provides practically the only serious information
          about the war in town - certainly not the N-G or radio/TV
          news.
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>As the administration works desperately to distract
            attention from its expanding war, we should redouble our
            efforts to publicize it. </div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>And we should work to find fora in which to answer
            comments like the ones posed here. A report on the demo
            & the comments on AOTA is a place to start.</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>--CGE</div>
          <div><br>
            <div>
              <div>On Feb 3, 2013, at 10:32 AM, Stuart Levy <<a
                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:stuartnlevy@gmail.com">stuartnlevy@gmail.com</a>>
                wrote:</div>
              <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">First: yes we do
                  plan to meet at the White Horse bar again.<br>
                  <br>
                  Yesterday's demonstration - well I see Karen just
                  wrote about it too.  Thanks to everybody!<br>
                  <br>
                  I thought the most interesting comment was from a
                  woman who said, "Everybody's against war - no one goes
                  to war because they *want* to."  As if war were one of
                  those winds that blows nobody good.  I offered some
                  examples of people who might see war as a great way to
                  promote their own interests.<br>
                  <br>
                  Maybe hers is a common way of thinking - one we should
                  keep directly confronting as we talk about war.<br>
                  <br>
                  No ground hogs came by, but our new mascot mouse --
                  hardly the size of the last joint of your thumb -- was
                  awfully cute.  Scrabbling hard for seeds in the
                  austerity of winter.<br>
                  <br>
                  We handed out a bunch of flyers, using fragments from
                  Glenn Greenwald's and Seumas Milne's recent Guardian
                  articles on Mali and the cycle of endless war.   Sorry
                  these weren't passed around in advance, but please see
                  attached.<br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  -------<br>
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                        <p align="center"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Georgia'; FONT-SIZE: 23pt; FONT-WEIGHT:
                            700">Mali? Libya? The Phillippines? Somalia?<br>
                            Yemen? Iraq? Afghanistan? Pakistan?<br>
                          </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia';
                            FONT-SIZE: 24pt; FONT-WEIGHT: 700">Haven't
                            we been here before? </span></p>
                        <p><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Arial'; FONT-SIZE: 15pt">(excerpts below
                            from Glenn Greenwald writing in The
                            Guardian, Jan 14th </span><span
                            style="FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Arial'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; VERTICAL-ALIGN:
                            4pt">1</span><span style="FONT-STYLE:
                            italic; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; FONT-SIZE:
                            15pt">)</span></p>
                        <p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT';
                            FONT-SIZE: 12pt">As </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt; FONT-WEIGHT: 700">French war planes
                            bomb Mali, </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                            'ArialMT'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">there is one
                            simple statistic that provides the key
                            context: </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Arial'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-WEIGHT: 700">this
                            west African nation of 15 million people is
                            the eighth country in which western powers -
                            over the last four years alone - have bombed
                            and killed Muslims - after Iraq,
                            Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Libya, Somalia
                            and the Philippines </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt">(that does not count the numerous
                            lethal tyrannies propped up by the west in
                            that region). For obvious reasons, the
                            rhetoric that the west is not at war with
                            the Islamic world grows increasingly hollow
                            with each new expansion of this militarism.
                            But within this new massive bombing
                            campaign, one finds most of the vital
                            lessons about western intervention that,
                            typically, are ignored. </span></p>
                        <p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt; FONT-WEIGHT: 700">First, </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt">as this NY Times' account makes clear,
                          </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial';
                            FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-WEIGHT: 700">much of
                            the instability in Mali is the direct result
                            of Nato's intervention in Libya. </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt">[...] As Owen Jones wrote in an
                            excellent column in the Independent: </span></p>
                        <blockquote>
                          <p><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                              'TimesNewRomanPSMT'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">“This
                              intervention is itself the consequence of
                              another. The Libyan war is frequently
                              touted as a success story for liberal
                              interventionism. Yet the toppling of
                              Muammar Gaddafi's dictatorship had
                              consequences that Western intelligence
                              services probably never even bothered to
                              imagine. Tuaregs – who traditionally
                              hailed from northern Mali – made up a
                              large portion of his army. When Gaddafi
                              was ejected from power, they returned to
                              their homeland: sometimes forcibly so as
                              black Africans came under attack in
                              post-Gaddafi Libya, an uncomfortable fact
                              largely ignored by the Western media. . .
                              . [T]he Libyan war was seen as a success .
                              . . and here we are now engaging with its
                              catastrophic blowback.” </span></p>
                        </blockquote>
                        <p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt; FONT-WEIGHT: 700">Over and over,
                            western intervention ends up - whether by
                            ineptitude or design - sowing the seeds of
                            further intervention. </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt">Given the massive instability still
                            plaguing Libya as well as enduring anger
                            over the Benghazi attack, how long will it
                            be before we hear that bombing and invasions
                            in </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Arial'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-WEIGHT: 700">that
                          </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT';
                            FONT-SIZE: 12pt">country are - once again -
                            necessary to combat the empowered "Islamist"
                            forces there: forces empowered as a result
                            of the Nato overthrow of that country's
                            government? </span></p>
                        <p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt; FONT-WEIGHT: 700">Second, the
                            overthrow of the Malian government was
                            enabled by US-trained-and- armed soldiers
                            who defected. </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt">From the NYT: “commanders </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT';
                            FONT-SIZE: 12pt">of this nation's elite army
                            units, the fruit of years of careful
                            American training, defected when they were
                            needed most — taking troops, guns, trucks
                            and their newfound skills to the enemy in
                            the heat of battle, according to senior
                            Malian military officials.” </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt">Then: </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT'; FONT-SIZE:
                            13pt">“an </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                            'TimesNewRomanPS'; FONT-SIZE: 13pt;
                            FONT-WEIGHT: 700">American-trained officer
                            overthrew Mali's elected government, </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT';
                            FONT-SIZE: 12pt">setting the stage for more
                            than half of the country to fall into the
                            hands of Islamic extremists.” [...] </span></p>
                        <p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt; FONT-WEIGHT: 700">Third, western
                            bombing of Muslims in yet another country
                            will obviously provoke even more
                            anti-western sentiment, the fuel of
                            terrorism. </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                            'ArialMT'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Already, as the
                            Guardian reports, French fighter jets in
                            Mali have killed "at least 11 civilians
                            including three children". France's long
                            history of colonialization in Mali only
                            exacerbates the inevitable anger. In
                            December, after the UN Security Council
                            authorized the intervention in Mali, Amnesty
                            International's resea</span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt">rcher on West Africa, Salvatore
                            Saguès, warned: "An international armed
                            intervention is likely to increase the scale
                            of human rights violations we are already
                            seeing in this conflict." ... </span></p>
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                        <p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT';
                            FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Indeed, at the same time
                            that the French are now killing civilians in
                            Mali, a joint French-US raid in Somalia
                            caused the deaths of "at least eight
                            civilians, including two women and two
                            children". </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Arial'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-WEIGHT: 700">To
                            believe that the US and its allies can just
                            continue to go around the world, in country
                            after country, and bomb and kill innocent
                            people - Muslims - and not be targeted with
                            "terrorist" attacks is, for obvious reasons,
                            lunacy. </span></p>
                        <p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt; FONT-WEIGHT: 700">Fourth, </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt">for all the self-flattering rhetoric
                            that western democracies love to apply to
                            themselves, it is extraordinary how these
                            wars are waged without any pretense of
                            democratic process. [...] </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt; FONT-WEIGHT: 700">The Obama
                            administration has, of course, draped its
                            entire drone and global assassination
                            campaign in an impenetrable cloth of
                            secrecy, ensuring it remains beyond the
                            scrutinizing reach of media outlets, courts,
                            and its own citizens. </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt">The US and its western allies do not
                            merely wage endless war aimed invariably at
                            Muslims. They do so in virtually complete
                            secrecy, without any transparency or
                            accountability. Meet the western
                            "democracies". </span></p>
                        <p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt; FONT-WEIGHT: 700">Finally, </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt">the propaganda used to justify all of
                            this is depressingly common yet wildly
                            effective. </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Arial'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-WEIGHT: 700">Any
                            western government that wants to bomb
                            Muslims simply slaps the label of
                            "terrorists" on them, and any real debate or
                            critical assessment instantly ends before it
                            can even begin. </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt">[...] There is no doubt that the
                            Malian rebels have engaged in all sorts of
                            heinous atrocities ("amputations, flogging,
                            and stoning to death for those who oppose
                            their interpretation of Islam"), but so,
                            too, have Malian government forces -
                            including, as Amnesty chronicled,
                            "arresting, torturing and killing Tuareg
                            people apparently only on ethnic ground." As
                            Jones aptly warns: "don't </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt; FONT-WEIGHT: 700">fall for a narrative
                            so often pushed by the Western media: a
                            perverse oversimplification of good fighting
                            evil, just as we have seen imposed on
                            Syria's brutal civil war." </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt">[...] </span></p>
                        <p><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Arial'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt">(and, from a Jan
                            22nd article by Seumas Milne, also in The
                            Guardian2) </span></p>
                        <p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT';
                            FONT-SIZE: 12pt">[...] </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt; FONT-WEIGHT: 700">All this is anyway
                            about a good deal more than terrorism. </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt">Underlying the growing western
                            military involvement in Africa – from the
                            spread of American bases under the US Africa
                            Command to France's resumption of its
                            post-colonial habit of routine armed
                            intervention – is </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt; FONT-WEIGHT: 700">a struggle for
                            resources and strategic control, in the face
                            of China's expanding economic role in the
                            continent. </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                            'ArialMT'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">In north and
                            west Africa, that's not just about oil and
                            gas, but also uranium in countries like
                            Niger – and Mali. </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; FONT-SIZE:
                            12pt; FONT-WEIGHT: 700">Terrorism has long
                            since become a catch-all cover for
                            legitimizing aggressive war. </span></p>
                        <p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT';
                            FONT-SIZE: 12pt">[1] </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT'; FONT-SIZE:
                            11pt"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/14/mali-france-bombing-intervention-libya">http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/14/mali-france-bombing-intervention-libya</a><br>
                            [2] <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/22/mali-fastest-blowback-war-on-terror/">http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/22/mali-fastest-blowback-war-on-terror/</a>
                          </span></p>
                        <p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; FONT-SIZE:
                            11pt; FONT-WEIGHT: 700">It doesn't have to
                            be this way. Let your elected
                            representatives know you oppose the pattern
                            of endless intervention and war. </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT'; FONT-SIZE:
                            11pt">In this area: </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; FONT-SIZE:
                            11pt; FONT-WEIGHT: 700">US Rep. Rodney Davis
                          </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT';
                            FONT-SIZE: 11pt">(R IL-13), </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica'; FONT-SIZE:
                            11pt">(202) 224-3121, and </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica'; FONT-SIZE:
                            11pt; FONT-WEIGHT: 700">US Senators Richard
                            Durbin </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Helvetica'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">(D-IL) </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT'; FONT-SIZE:
                            11pt">(202) 224-2152, </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica'; FONT-SIZE:
                            11pt">and </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Helvetica'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-WEIGHT:
                            700">Mark Kirk </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica'; FONT-SIZE:
                            11pt">(R-IL) </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT'; FONT-SIZE:
                            11pt">(202) 224-2854. </span></p>
                        <p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT';
                            FONT-SIZE: 11pt">This flyer comes from
                            AWARE, the Anti-War, Anti-Racism Effort of
                            Champaign-Urbana – on Facebook at: </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; FONT-SIZE:
                            11pt; FONT-WEIGHT: 700"><a
                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                              href="http://on.fb.me/WHYaje">http://on.fb.me/WHYaje</a>   
                          </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'ArialMT';
                            FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Watch our weekly Urbana
                            Public TV (channel 6) program, “AWARE on the
                            Air”, Tuesdays at 10PM – or join us in the
                            Urbana City Council Chambers for the live
                            unrehearsed recordings at noon Tuesdays. </span><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica'; FONT-SIZE:
                            11pt">Meetings? 5PM Sunday evenings. Write
                            us at </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Helvetica'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-WEIGHT:
                            700"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                              class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                              href="mailto:aware@anti-war.net">aware@anti-war.net</a>
                          </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica';
                            FONT-SIZE: 11pt">for more info. </span></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <br>
                </div>
                <span><flyer2013-02-02-greenwald+milne.pdf></span>_______________________________________________<br>
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            </div>
            <br>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p> </p>
        <hr> _______________________________________________<br>
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      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</pre>
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