<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Mike--<div><br></div><div>In the original (suppressed) preface to Animal Farm, George Orwell wrote, "If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear."</div><div><br></div><div>Was he right? </div><div><br></div><div>Regards, Carl<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>On Mar 21, 2013, at 10:20 PM, Mike Lehman <<a href="mailto:rebelmike@earthlink.net">rebelmike@earthlink.net</a>> wrote:</div><div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Carl,<br>
Just going to answer this one reply, figgerin' we're both just
covering well-plowed ground already...<br>
<br>
BTW, no need to personally CC me a copy, either. I read SF just
fine. For now.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 3/21/2013 9:14 PM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:<br>
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<div>Shouldn't we be discussing why it is the case that, ten years
after the largest antiwar demonstrations in history, the USG is
able to spread murder and torture around the world -
particularly in the Mideast and North Africa - without let or
hindrance, except from its victims?</div>
<br>
</blockquote>
Yeah, that is a big problem. Not sure what I have to contribute,
given this is hardly a pre-revolutionary situation or one where the
nth angry email is likely to help. The one thing I won't do is
continuously harangue the people willing to listen to me about an
issue.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:0D6ED048-34B6-471C-B6FC-16472B933FE4@newsfromneptune.com" type="cite">How has the domestic anti-war movement been so
neutralized? The article* referred to in the subject line provides
part of the answer, and yes, identity politics provides some more.
("Opposition to Obama is racist!") <br>
</blockquote>
Quite aware that Obama is still a hero or symbol to some. If my
folks were dragged to this country in chains, etc, etc, and somehow
a fellow that looks remotely like me, who might have a clue about
what white skin privilege is, but who can also see things from my
point of view....in a country where the politics of just about
anything hardly rises above the level of fighting over the roadkill
possum we need for dinner because we can't come to terms officially
with the idea that food and a warm spot out of the weather might be
a human right...got elected, then I might still be celebrating,
whatever the heck you think I should be making my first priority.<br>
<br>
I am sure that some opposition to Obama is racist. Do you really
think that's not the case? On the other hand, sometimes it's a
matter of priorities at a personal level. Frankly, I'm glad that so
many folks are starting to awaken to the need to protect their own
interests. When they all get to the state of doctoral degrees,
plenty of decent healthcare, and the luxury of time and resources
often needed to start worrying about others, then maybe you'll have
better luck communicating with the people you're blamin'...jus
saying.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:0D6ED048-34B6-471C-B6FC-16472B933FE4@newsfromneptune.com" type="cite"><br>
The child-killer in the White House will not be restrained until
enough Americans become aware of the crimes their government is
committing in their name, though not in their interest. It will
take a movement like that for civil rights or against the SE Asian
war to reverse the Bush-Obama war policy. <br>
</blockquote>
I would suggest you aim a little higher in term of eyeballs on the
screen counts than SF or Peace-D. You're obviously not working hard
enough or maybe you need a media consultant to help you shape your
message so it's a little more, ummm, digestible.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:0D6ED048-34B6-471C-B6FC-16472B933FE4@newsfromneptune.com" type="cite"><br>
The Obama administration is aware of that - see Obama's discussion
of the Vietnam war in The Audacity of Hope - and determined that
such an opposition shall not develop. They'll stop at very little
- note their actions in regard to Wikileaks and the Occupy
movement, the assassination program and indefinite detention
without trial.<br>
<br>
We should be working on ways to stop them. --CGE<br>
</blockquote>
If your personal failure to communicate in a way that compels people
to come together and act against evil, then it's awfully hard to
work on ways to stop anything we'd rather not happen. If you were
really worried about political effectiveness, I wouldn't be wasting
my time to write this right now. <br>
<br>
May I suggest your very own email list, where you can pontificate to
all willing to listen? <br>
<br>
I'd be happy to make arrangements, give you the keys and walk away
and let you do your thing. Just let me know. The only thing I want
is for you to take the 98% of stuff that you repost here and has
shown to be of so little interest that you'd get more reaction by
dropping a pebble in a well. I think you're a smart guy and realize
that most of these folks simply aren't interested in talking with
you so long as you continue your sanctimonious, grinding, graceless,
annoying, counter-productive, ineffective, and, yes, increasingly
vapid tone. So I guess it's just more important to you to condemn
the most likely people to do something about what you care about.
Not sure how that advances things. Maybe you need a nice long
retreat, plenty of prayer and abstention, sweat out all the bad
stuff?<br>
<br>
Maybe it's just me. I'm a tad sensitive this week to this sort of
thing. I just went through an ugly divorce with two lists I've been
deeply involved with, in one case for 16+ years. It involved one
crotchety old geek who had a personal beef with a list member. For a
long time, he stayed on the one list and my friend stayed on the
other. They'd had words before offlist and the old fart just would
not keep this tangentially related conflict off-list. The problem
was the list owner of both lists kind of thought the jerk's right to
be off-topic, insulting, and yes, even a clumsy-stupid blackmail
attempt that turned virtually everybody who hadn't already made up
their mind to say I'm outta here -- all clearly against list rules
BTW -- was more important than the right of the rest of us not to
hear about his obsession with abusing my friend everyday. <br>
<br>
Well, as it turns out, the jerk and the owner are pretty tight. Most
of the folks who actually post on one or both lists thought the
owner was bat-shit crazy (I won't go into details, trust me, your
stuff may been intended to be incredibly irritating, but you still
have some anchor in reality) to keep him around after that and,
well, we've made other arrangements. No need for further details
except this...<br>
<br>
I will not be the one to subject my fellow listmembers to crap that
they clearly aren't interested in and which as far as I can tell is
posted here mostly to annoy and irritate. Trust me on this, Carl,
these folks have their own computers and are smart enough to use
Google to find out more what interests them -- and to figure out
that you've drawn ever closer to outright bullying. Are we really
all accomplices to murder? Heck, I've been working against this sort
of stuff since I was 15. "I could've been a contender!" if not for
all this radical shit. That never bothers me except when I have to
listen to your guff, so tuning you out will likely solve this
personal failing of mine. This is not to say that I or they aren't
interested in Palestine, warmongering presidents elected under false
pretenses, or even abortion and the pope -- but I'm pretty sure at
this point they aren't interested in engaging with you on these
matters.<br>
<br>
Do you want to know how bad it is? You being here right now is about
like Hamas hiring (resurrecting?) bin-Laden and making him their
press secretary. Anyone who know the players knows how ridiculous
that is. If the shoe fits, wear it.<br>
<br>
So why is there some sort of line in the sand looming? Because I'm
the list owner here and I don't want to be a jerk like the guy I was
just telling you about and insist on subjecting list members to the
latest revisions of the same old arguments I know I've heard many
times before. So why is this a problem?<br>
<br>
SF has a long and proud history of not purging people. It's
something I'm proud of and don't want to change. But I find myself
increasingly tempted to send your membership info to the SF list
File 13 as a personal failing of mine. Since I don't want to do
that, I'd appreciate it if you take me up on my offer of your own
list for general biting and scratching at that powers that be and
refrain from doing so here.<br>
Thanks,<br>
Mike<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:0D6ED048-34B6-471C-B6FC-16472B933FE4@newsfromneptune.com" type="cite">_______________________<br>
*<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/03/15/the-progressive-movement-is-a-pr-front-for-rich-democrats/">http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/03/15/the-progressive-movement-is-a-pr-front-for-rich-democrats/</a>>
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On Mar 21, 2013, at 7:30 PM, Mike Lehman <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:rebelmike@earthlink.net">rebelmike@earthlink.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">On 3/21/2013 6:30 PM, C. G. Estabrook
wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">The leaflet is attached; it was
circulated by members of AWARE.<br>
The objections were directed (as my article describes) at
those of us who had earlier circulated a flyer critical of
Obama at his "town meeting."<br>
The substance of that flyer is contained in the article:
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.counterpunch.org/2005/09/29/illinois-anti-warriors-and-the-attractive-senator/">http://www.counterpunch.org/2005/09/29/illinois-anti-warriors-and-the-attractive-senator/</a>>.<br>
Everyone is not/was not mad at me. Identity politics was
(and is) an issue...<br>
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<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Carl,<br>
Yeah, that could be a long discussion. In fact, it was a
discussion <br>
probably started around 1969. Looks like we're making quick
work of that <br>
one as the American left, which I presume is different from
them durn' <br>
"liberals."<br>
<br>
In its latest iteration here, at least you're only trying to
settle <br>
things from 2005, when Obama was still wiping the moisture
from behind <br>
his ears as the very junior senator from the Land of
Lincoln.<br>
<br>
How is being firmly stuck in the past going to win us
victory tomorrow? <br>
I think even Lenin would be starting to look around and
think more about <br>
when the seminar will be dismissed so he can get a beer than
listen to <br>
the instructor recount his own grad school ideological
conflicts for the <br>
nth time.<br>
Mike<br>
<br>
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