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<DIV>You will excuse me if I do not get involved in the substance of this debate
since I do not proclaim to be a lawyer, know first hand all the facts, or asses
the consequences of jury instructions on the members of the jury. However,
I do wish to raise some questions for discussion and consideration. First,
if the language that is part of the standard jury instruction that refers to
stand your ground” is not substantively different from the standard
definition of self-defense, why is it included as part of the standard jury
instruction? If it is different, how is it different and why would one
assume that this difference would not have any impact on the jury members
deliberations and interpretations of the evidence or defense presented – even if
no direct reference or use of that defense was being made by the defense?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Second, it is my understanding from an press conference held by the defense
lawyers after the decision was handed down that the members of the jury found
the instructions given them to be confusing, at best, and contradictory, at
worst, that the jury asked for clarifications as to what the language meant and
implied with respect to the various charges, and that the defense lawyers were
asked to do the clarification. Given this, I have to wonder what impact
the standard language including that which refers to the “stand your ground”
defense as well as the defense lawyers clarifications may have impacted on
the jury decision-making, how it may have added to the jury’s confusion
concerning what they saw themselves as being asked to determine, and to whether
or not they gave due consideration to all the possibilities with respect to
guilt on each of the charges including the lesser ones.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thirdly, while it would be at this point a counterfactual thought
experiment, I have to wonder what they outcome might have been if the
prosecution had turned the “stand your ground” defense on its head and argued
that Martin felt that he was being stalked and threatened by the white male
stranger and fearing for his safety and life was standing his ground by
defending himself against what he perceived to be a threat when he fought with
Zimmerman; and thus, it was Zimmerman that presented the threat and not Martin,
making Zimmerman’s claims of self defense questionable at best.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Fourthly, the “if he reasonably believed” part of your description of the
standard self-defense argument obviously revolves around the rather vague and
arbitrary notion of “reasonable.” Since there is no formal criteria or
standards for “reasonableness” and only a reliance on some common-law
notion of what the “normal everyman” would regard as reasonable, the decision by
a jury that an act was self-defense would have to be dependent on the contextual
situation as to who was the aggressor and who was defending themselves as well
as on biographically determined historic experience of those on the jury.
Thus, a jury whose life experiences are skewed one way would interpret the
situation differently than those whose life experiences were skewed in another
way and may not be able to “objectively” empathize with the perceptions and
experiences of one or both of the actual participants as to what a “reasonable
belief” would be.</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=cge@shout.net
href="mailto:cge@shout.net">C. G. Estabrook</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> July 15, 2013 3:00 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=paulmueth@yahoo.com
href="mailto:paulmueth@yahoo.com">Paul Mueth</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=rachelstrm@gmail.com
href="mailto:rachelstrm@gmail.com">Rachel Storm</A> ; <A
title=peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace Discuss</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Peace-discuss] Organize!</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none; DISPLAY: inline">The
written instructions to the jury (released after the note below was written)
used the phrase, but the law wasn't part of the defense:
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was
attacked in anyplace where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and
had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly
force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death
or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a
forcible felony."<BR><BR><<A href="http://reason.com">reason.com</A>>
writes, "That language is part of the standard jury instruction [3.6(f)] in
cases where the defendant claims his use of deadly force was justified. But it
is hard to see how it applies to the facts of this case, since Zimmerman claimed
he was unable to retreat and therefore did not base his defense on the right to
stand your ground. The fact that a legal provision was mentioned in the
instructions does not necessarily mean it was relevant in reaching a verdict.
For example, the instructions also mentioned accidental killings and attacks on
dwellings, neither of which applies to the circumstances of the encounter
between Zimmerman and Martin." <BR>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>--CGE<BR>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Jul 15, 2013, at 1:09 PM, Paul Mueth <<A
href="mailto:paulmueth@yahoo.com">paulmueth@yahoo.com</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>
<DIV>This is wrong,</DIV>
<DIV>"stand your ground" was referred to in instructions to the jury, ck Dem
Now today. </DIV>
<DIV>It may be standard op in FL, I guess particularly when the accused prep
is the son of a judge, </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There should be an argument about whether Z used the word "coon"
on<BR>The 911 call or not.</DIV>
<DIV>Chew on this for a while,</DIV>
<DIV>Everything is fine in FL</DIV>
<DIV><A
href="http://mobile.alternet.org/alternet/#!/entry/black-woman-gets-20-years-for-firing-shot-at-wall,51b7609bda27f5d9d0dd3c29">http://mobile.alternet.org/alternet/#!/entry/black-woman-gets-20-years-for-firing-shot-at-wall,51b7609bda27f5d9d0dd3c29</A></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Sent from my iPhone 3GS, It doesn't chat!</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Jul 14, 2013, at 11:16 AM, "C. G. Estabrook" <<A
href="mailto:cge@shout.net">cge@shout.net</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>'...State of Florida v. Zimmerman is a
straight up traditional self defense case. It has never been pled as a Stand
Your Ground defense case, irrespective of all the press coverage, attention
and attribution to Stand Your Ground. It’s never been Stand Your Ground, and
certainly is not now that the evidence is all in on the trial record. It is
a straight self defense justification defense, one that would be pretty much
the same under the law of any state in the union including that which you
are in, and that I am in, now (so don’t blame “Florida
law”)...'</SPAN><BR><SPAN></SPAN><BR><SPAN>- See more at: <A
href="http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/07/11/uncomfortable-truth-the-state-of-evidence-in-the-george-zimmerman-prosecution/#sthash.j89tcZbp.dpuf">http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/07/11/uncomfortable-truth-the-state-of-evidence-in-the-george-zimmerman-prosecution/#sthash.j89tcZbp.dpuf</A></SPAN><BR><SPAN></SPAN><BR><SPAN>On
Jul 14, 2013, at 10:31 AM, "E. Wayne Johnson 朱稳森" <<A
href="mailto:ewj@pigsqq.org">ewj@pigsqq.org</A>>
wrote:</SPAN><BR><SPAN></SPAN><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>The Martin/Zimmerman incident is not like
the </SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>Champaign Police shootings of young black
men.</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>Zimmerman may be an asshole or not. I
am not sure.</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>Most but not all cops and wannabee cops are
</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>indeed quasi-assholes. Not
all.</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>But clearly Zimmerman was attacked, and on
that basis he </SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>has been set free, because of the
self-defense argument.</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>The cause of the dispute betwen Martin and
Zimmerman</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>becomes irrelevant when Zimmerman is
attacked.</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>It's not like Zimmerman just pulled out his
gun and </SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>Oba-nam Style executed him because he was
wearing a hoodie.</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>The law permits people to have encounters
and disagreement.</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>When it erupts into physical violence
particularly life-threatening</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>violence, then a line is crossed. The
situation was</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>examined very clearly.</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>Justice my ass.</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>It's not justice that they are crying
for. </SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>It's blood.</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>They want an eye for an eye and a tooth for
a tooth</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>They want blood for
bloodshed.</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>Well, actually what they want is
Money.</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>But since there isn't any money
available,</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>they'll settle for a few pints of
blood,</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>and several ounces of testicular flesh if
that</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>becomes available.</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>It is really a disgusting distraction for a
noble movement</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>like Occupy! to get down and grub for
cooties</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>with the blood-lust
crowd.</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>On 07/14/13 22:02, Karen Aram
wrote:</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>Rachel</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>After today's AWARE meeting at 5:00, I
will be attending the protest, bringing a neighbor as well.
</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>Trayvon Marvin represents the many young
black men from Emmet Till, Jimmie Lee Jackson, Robert Hall etc., etc.
murdered because of their race, with the perpetrators so obviously being
acquitted by unjust laws and or decisions.
</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>Karen
Aram</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>From: <A
href="mailto:rachelstrm@gmail.com">rachelstrm@gmail.com</A></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2013 03:51:39
-0500</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>To: <A
href="mailto:sdas-current@googlegroups.com">sdas-current@googlegroups.com</A>;
<A
href="mailto:sdas-list@googlegroups.com">sdas-list@googlegroups.com</A>;
<A
href="mailto:occupyCU@lists.chambana.net">occupyCU@lists.chambana.net</A>;
<A
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</A>;
<A
href="mailto:peace@anti-war.net">peace@anti-war.net</A></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss]
Organize!</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>Hey folks---If anyone has heard of another
demo being planned, I'm happy to send notices out, cancel this one, and
redirect people there. I've contacted a number of African-American led
organizations in town and can't seem to tell if something is already in
the works. Either way, I'm happy to help try and get the word out and
then redirect if need be.</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>Okay, here's what I got to start. <A
href="https://www.facebook.com/events/206857249471575/?context=create">https://www.facebook.com/events/206857249471575/?context=create</A></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>Please forward widely.
</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>No Justice, No Peace x Protest the
Verdict</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>Sunday, July 14th, 2013 |
6pm-8pm</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>Douglass Park | 512 E. Grove St.
Champaign</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>"George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch
volunteer who fatally shot Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teenager,
igniting a national debate on racial profiling and civil rights, was
found not guilty late Saturday night of second-degree murder." We will
stand together in Champaign-Urbana to demand accountability, to stand
against racial injustice, and to protest the verdict that proved the
injustice of the system. We stand with Trayvon’s family and we know that
we are called to act---to fight for civil rights and for the removal of
Stand Your Ground laws in every state, and we will not rest until racial
profiling in all its forms is outlawed. Today we mourn, but tomorrow we
organize. #blacklivesmatter</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>Bring your friends, your family, your
children, your neighbors. We stand together as a community--all of us.
Art, protest signs, candles, and messages of
outrage/hope/love/solidarity are encouraged.
</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>Share on Facebook: <A
href="https://www.facebook.com/events/206857249471575/?context=create">https://www.facebook.com/events/206857249471575/?context=create</A></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 2:36 AM, Rachel
Storm <<A
href="mailto:rachelstrm@gmail.com">rachelstrm@gmail.com</A>>
wrote:</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>I think we need an emergency demonstration
tomorrow in response to the Zimmerman verdict to show that Urbana
community members/activists/folks in solidarity do not stand for this
outrageous demonstration of injustice.</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>Can we plan to meet somewhere very public
tomorrow (Sunday) at 6pm-ish?</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN>WHERE?</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE
type="cite"><SPAN>Rachel</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN></SPAN><BR><SPAN></SPAN><BR><SPAN>_______________________________________________</SPAN><BR><SPAN>Peace-discuss
mailing list</SPAN><BR><SPAN><A
href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</A></SPAN><BR><SPAN><A
href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss">https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</A></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>Peace-discuss
mailing list<BR><A
href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</A><BR>https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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