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<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>From a list-serve discussion list I am on in the
U.K.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>They find the Zimmerman case of not-guilty of
anything unbelievable.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>David J.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=RSilver100@aol.com href="mailto:RSilver100@aol.com">RSilver100@aol.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=socialistdiscussion@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:socialistdiscussion@yahoogroups.com">socialistdiscussion@yahoogroups.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 15, 2013 3:07 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialistdiscussion] The Zimmerman case</DIV></DIV>
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<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Thanks to John,
Stu and others for all the shocking examples they have given of the
monstrously biased, corrupt, racist and sexist judicial system in the
USA.<O></O></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><O></O></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I was puzzled by
an earlier remark of John's: "<B><I>Zimmerman is a racist who provoked Martin by
stalking him. But this was legally irrelevant. And in different circumstances,
socialists would want similar issues to be considered irrelevant.... In a system
whose state is rightfully considered the enemy of the masses of people, you have
to keep every safeguard possible against state persecution in the courts. The
problem is that this means that violent racists like Zimmerman will also often
go free.</I></B>" <O></O></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><O></O></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Obviously, John
didn't intend to imply that the exoneration of a racist murderer is part of the
price we have to pay for a legal system which allows safeguards
against persecution of workers; but it seems to me that that formulation could
be open to misinterpretation. <O></O></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><O></O></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Even under
Florida's notoriously corrupt legal system, surely Zimmerman's bad faith could
have been challenged with reference to his repeated racist comments, even (I
believe) only minutes before the killing? And couldn't any CCTV evidence,
or forensic evidence, be found to refute his claim that he was under attack? And
even if Martin did attack him, could it not have been successfully
argued that Martin himself was only "standing his ground", believing (quite
rightly, as it turned out) that his own life was in danger? Since we know
that the police were adamant that they weren't going to bring charges
against Zimmerman, isn't it crystal clear that they must have withheld evidence
that would have damaged his case (for instance, disproving his claim that he was
the victim of an attack) and fabricated evidence in his
favour? <O></O></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><O></O></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">This case brings
to mind the Rodney King case, when absolutely definitive video proof of the
police officers' guilt was wilfully ignored by a white jury; let alone the cases
of Joe Hill, Sacco and Vanzetti, the Black Panthers and a long list of heroic
martyred militants. <O></O></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><O></O></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I am surprised
that so far there have been no outright riots, as followed the Rodney King
verdict and the murder of Martin Luther King. Maybe they will still come. But I
am interested in knowing how far public outrage at this travesty extends to the
non-black population.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Roger
Silverman</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><O></O></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 15/07/2013 19:30:41 GMT Daylight Time,
1999wildcat@gmail.com writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2
face=Arial><SPAN> </SPAN>
<DIV id=ygrp-text>
<P>
<DIV dir=ltr>This country is going absolutely insane. <A
title=http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/06/06/2117161/jury-acquits-texas-man-for-murder-of-escort-who-refused-sex/?mobile=nc
href="http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/06/06/2117161/jury-acquits-texas-man-for-murder-of-escort-who-refused-sex/?mobile=nc">Here</A> is
a case of a man in Texas who was acquitted of murder after he shot a woman who
was a paid escort who refused to have sex with him. He assumed that being a
paid escort meant having sex and after she said she was leaving and refused to
give him his money back he shot and killed her.</DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:29 AM, stu <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A title=mailto:stuart60625@yahoo.com
href="mailto:stuart60625@yahoo.com"
target=_blank>stuart60625@yahoo.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid" class=gmail_quote><U></U>
<DIV><SPAN> </SPAN>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P></P>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman,new york,times,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV><SPAN>John is right about the limits of the capitalist legal system. It
says justice is blind and it shouldn't be. Example: your house is
broken into and some valuables are taken. The burglar is caught and you find
out (a): they had lost their job and did this because their kids were hungry
or (b): they were trying to get money to party with or (c): they did it to
show their friends they are big shots. Capitalism treats them all the same
at least for guilt ( the first one may have mitigation for sentencing). A
socialist system wouldn't.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: 'times new roman','new york',times,serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>As
for Zimmerman, I am not familiar with Florida law but in Illinois the
defense is not allowed. You can't use deadly force to confront non-deadly
force.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>When John says "<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; FONT-SIZE: 13px">I
think that what this shows is the limitations of the capitalist legal
system. Zimmerman is a racist who provoked Martin by stalking him. But this
was legally irrelevant. And in different circumstances, socialists would
want similar issues to be considered irrelevant." He is right although under
certain circumstances that information would be brought out at
trial.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; FONT-SIZE: 13px"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; FONT-SIZE: 13px">John says: "</SPAN><SPAN>If
somebody had a history of conflict with police and had demonstrated a
dislike of police and was at one point attacked and beaten by the cops,
socialists (and others) wold want this victim's past to be kept out of the
case. " It might be kept out unless there was an issue of who attacked whom.
We also can, under certain circumstances bring in a cop's record for
attacking people or false arrest. There are greater protections for the
defendant as to what can be introduced against her.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'times new roman','new york',times,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'times new roman','new york',times,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<HR SIZE=1>
<FONT face=Arial><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> John
Reimann <<A title=mailto:1999wildcat@gmail.com
href="mailto:1999wildcat@gmail.com"
target=_blank>1999wildcat@gmail.com</A>><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> socialist discussion <<A
title=mailto:socialistdiscussion@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:socialistdiscussion@yahoogroups.com"
target=_blank>socialistdiscussion@yahoogroups.com</A>> <BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, July 15, 2013 8:19
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B>
[socialistdiscussion] The Zimmerman case<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=h5>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN> </SPAN>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>I'd like to raise some points about the Zimmerman case.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>In the US court system, the accused is innocent until proven guilty,
and he or she must be so proven "beyond a reasonable shadow of doubt."</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Zimmerman's claim was that he was attacked by Martin, who had him down
on the ground and was hitting him. Under Florida law, in that situation he
had a right to use a gun to defend himself. His claim was never
disproven.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I think that what this shows is the limitations of the capitalist legal
system. Zimmerman is a racist who provoked Martin by stalking him. But this
was legally irrelevant. And in different circumstances, socialists would
want similar issues to be considered irrelevant.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>If somebody had a history of conflict with police and had demonstrated
a dislike of police and was at one point attacked and beaten by the cops,
socialists (and others) wold want this victim's past to be kept out of the
case. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I think that the deeper problem, therefore, is that in a system whose
state is rightfully considered the enemy of the masses of people, you have
to keep every safeguard possible against state persecution in the courts.
The problem is that this means that violent racists like Zimmerman will also
often go free.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>John<BR clear=all>
<DIV><BR></DIV>-- <BR>
<DIV dir=ltr>"Poems don't belong to those who write them; they belong to
those who need them" - from movie "Il Postino"<BR>Check out:https:<A
title=http://oaklandsocialist.com/ href="http://oaklandsocialist.com/"
rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://oaklandsocialist.com</A> and //<A
title=http://www.facebook.com/WorkersIntlNetwork?ref=stream
href="http://www.facebook.com/WorkersIntlNetwork?ref=stream" rel=nofollow
target=_blank>www.facebook.com/WorkersIntlNetwork?ref=stream</A>
<DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P></P></DIV>
<DIV style="COLOR: #fff"></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all>
<DIV><BR></DIV>-- <BR>
<DIV dir=ltr>"Poems don't belong to those who write them; they belong to those
who need them" - from movie "Il Postino"<BR>Check out:https:<A
title=http://oaklandsocialist.com/ href="http://oaklandsocialist.com/"
target=_blank>http://oaklandsocialist.com</A> and //<A
title=http://www.facebook.com/WorkersIntlNetwork?ref=stream
href="http://www.facebook.com/WorkersIntlNetwork?ref=stream"
target=_blank>www.facebook.com/WorkersIntlNetwork?ref=stream</A>
<DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P></P></DIV>
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