<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv=Content-Type></HEAD>
<BODY dir=ltr bgColor=#ffffff text=#000000>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>I believe that the view that you present is a very oversimplified one with
respect to the role and power of juries in practice. Jurors are not instructed
about the possibility of engaging in jury nullification nor encouraged to engage
in jury nullification. Most members of jury pools as well as those
actually selected for juries either do not support jury nullification actions or
are reluctant to engage in them even if they are aware that it is
possible. Just as many support policies like the Patriot Act and programs
that have minimized – if not done away with – civil rights and privacy in favor
of security and national defense, many would willingly accept – for whatever
reason – changing the jury system if jury nullification became wide
spread. Thus, in practice, I am not very optimistic about the jury system
being any sort of protection that can be counted on.</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none; DISPLAY: inline">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=ewj@pigsqq.org
href="mailto:ewj@pigsqq.org">"E. Wayne Johnson 朱稳森"</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> July 18, 2013 10:11 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=carl@newsfromneptune.com
href="mailto:carl@newsfromneptune.com">C. G. Estabrook</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=ls1000@live.com href="mailto:ls1000@live.com">Laurie
Solomon</A> ; <A title=Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net
href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss List</A> ; <A
title=occupycu@lists.chambana.net
href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net">ocCUpy</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Peace-discuss] More differential application of
SYG</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none; DISPLAY: inline">Klimmen
und dalen. <BR><BR>Art by Escher. Concept by Penrose.<BR><BR><IMG
id=itemImage alt="Ascending, Descending Created by MC Escher"
src="cid:82CE5D95697947B483B069558A845AFD@TOSHIBALAPTOP" width=428
height=531><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>On 07/18/13 22:46, "E. Wayne Johnson 朱稳森" wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:51E7FFB3.1040109@pigsqq.org type="cite">The Jury is the
last line of defence of the People against the State.<BR>The Jury can Nullify
bad laws.<BR><BR>In the present situation in the US, it should be clear to all
that the State<BR>is one of the most effective tools of the 1%.<BR><BR>The
Jury is one of the few remaining ways in which the People, accused,<BR>can
escape from the grasp of the State (and the 1%, who are the prime
benefactors<BR>of the state).<BR><BR>One can't say that Occupy! has gone home
and hid because they all got tired.<BR>They went home because the 1%,
particularly the banksters, doesnt like Occupy!,<BR>and used the authority of
the State to clear Occupy! out.<BR><BR>The 1%, because <U>some</U> of Occupy!
members <I>really do love Big Sibling</I>,<BR>have also been able to co-opt
Occupy! into support of policies that<BR>are either neutral, relatively
harmless, or beneficial to the 1%.<BR><BR>Far better that Occupy! and the
co-opted Left wear themselves out<BR>going round and round on an
Penrose-Escher staircase than to <BR>actually go after the man behind the
curtain, get him by the toe,<BR>and make him holler.<BR><BR><BR>On 07/18/13
22:15, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:91345194-6CF6-455B-A845-4CBD19E68334@newsfromneptune.com
type="cite"><PRE wrap="">'This' refers to the jury system.
On Jul 18, 2013, at 12:23 AM, Laurie Solomon <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:ls1000@live.com" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:ls1000@live.com</A> wrote:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap=""> The point is almost a truism and the same can be said for a non-jury system although the benefits may not always be identical; but I do fail to see why one has to invoke or quote William Kunstler to make the point. His statement make the point in a highly obtuse way when just saying "that the jury system retains values that occasionally benefit even enemies of the state" is a much more pointed and clearer articulation of the point.
As for your statement, "For an account of how this and other hard-won peoples' victories are being destroyed in the 21st c. by the minions of the 1%, see Peter Linebaugh, "The Magna Carta Manifesto: Liberties and Commons for All" (Cal UP 2008)," I have no idea what the reference of the "this" in "how this and other hard-won peoples' victories...." is. Does it refer to "the jury system," "the retained values," "the occasional benefits it furnishes to even enemies of the state," all of the above, or some combination of the above? Or are you saying that this publication gives an account of how " the jury system retains values that occasionally benefit even enemies of the state" is a hard won people's victory which is being destroyed by the minions of the 1%.
-----Original Message----- From: C. G. Estabrook
Sent: July 17, 2013 9:22 PM
To: Laurie Solomon
Cc: Peace-discuss List ; ocCUpy
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] More differential application of SYG
The point is that the jury system retains values that occasionally benefit even enemies of the state.
For an account of how this and other hard-won peoples' victories are being destroyed in the 21st c. by the minions of the 1%, see Peter Linebaugh, "The Magna Carta Manifesto: Liberties and Commons for All" (Cal UP 2008).
And in this campaign Neoliberalism seems sometimes to be aided by well-meaning Liberals.
On Jul 17, 2013, at 11:33 AM, Laurie Solomon <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:ls1000@live.com" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:ls1000@live.com</A> wrote:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">I find it interesting, telling, and disappointing that you feel little or no restraint in falling back on the use of racist terms, such as”Chink,” and terms colored by a biased and emotion-invoking spin, e.g., the “injustice” system when you could just as easily engaged in a rational civil discussion without having employing those tactics. I also find that many of your posts of recent on this and other topics have tended to become very disjointed and elliptical, making them hard to follow and understand. I attribute some of this to your use of your iPhone and in part to your attempt to multi-task in which you are giving little attention to any of the tasks you are performing but feel compelled to respond even if you cannot give the time to any detail.
While I am not a big fan of CGE, I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt here and assume that he was not focusing on invoking William Kunstler as much as invoking the Counterpunch article that he supplied a link to which does invoke Kunstler’s remark as an occasion for articulating the points of the article. Personally, I fail to see what Kunstler’s comments or positions (actual or presumptively attributed to him) on the jury system or ALEC orchestrated reforms have to do with anything. To do what a lot of people – including myself – seem to be doing these days, I will ask a counterfactual question: What if Kunstler has said that he had no opposition to and even supported the ALEC orchestration of reforms of the judicial system and SYG; how would that change anything including your position? I would suggest that it would not change anything and even suggest that the cognitive dissonance that this would create would result in his comments being dismissed
as irrelevant, senile, or misinformed. It is for that reason that I think invoking Kunstler or his comments is a distracting irrelevancy and totally unnecessary.
From: Paul Mueth
Sent: July 17, 2013 6:15 AM
To: Peace-discuss List
Cc: ocCUpy
Subject: [Peace-discuss] More differential application of SYG
The injustice system is rigged, another case in point
<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="http://mobile.thegrio.com/thegrio/#%21/entry/71yearold-black-man-found-guilty-of-manslaughter-jury-rejects-stand,5124f9c5d7fc7b56703b5d2f" moz-do-not-send="true">http://mobile.thegrio.com/thegrio/#!/entry/71yearold-black-man-found-guilty-of-manslaughter-jury-rejects-stand,5124f9c5d7fc7b56703b5d2f</A>
The Alternet article I circulated at the beginning of this string has the stats on how the Florida SYG is applied depending on the race of the stander.
William Kunstler invoked by CGE on the jury system would be fundamentally
opposed, I'm sure, to the ALEC orchestrated "reforms" of the judicial system, of which SYG is only one. And I guess perhaps the most deadly, at least in terms of individuals.
(Their tort reforms effectively releasing big Pharma further from liability could possibly cause more damage in the long run, societally. . . )
Sent from my iPhone 3GS, It doesn't chat!
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap=""> </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap="">_______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
<A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" moz-do-not-send="true">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</A>
<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</A>
_______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
<A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" moz-do-not-send="true">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</A>
<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</A>
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap="">_______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
<A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" moz-do-not-send="true">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</A>
<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</A>
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><PRE wrap=""><FIELDSET class=mimeAttachmentHeader></FIELDSET>
_______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
<A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</A>
<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss">https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</A>
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<P>
<HR>
_______________________________________________<BR>Peace-discuss mailing
list<BR>Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net<BR>https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>