<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">The official story (the US is fighting terrorism/promoting freedom and democracy, etc.) is a tissue of lies designed to convince the US populace that Obama's terrorism should continue - and, as we've seen, it's wearing thin. <div><br></div><div>US citizens need to be awakened to the real reasons for US imperial war - the economic and geopolitical benefits that accrue to the 1%. </div><div><br></div><div>Note "On Western Terrorism: From Hiroshima to Drone Warfare," by Noam Chomsky and Andre Vltchek, published this week by Pluto Press - a good corrective to the official story. </div><div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On Sep 20, 2013, at 7:34 PM, "E. Wayne Johnson 朱稳森" <<a href="mailto:ewj@pigsqq.org">ewj@pigsqq.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
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I think that poking holes in the official story has benefits,<br>
and particularly now that public opinion is shifted due to the<br>
Snowden affair and the Syria debacle and the declining economic <br>
situation and the collapsing of support for the Obamacare theft.<br>
<br>
There are a lot of people not yet woke up about things.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 09/21/13 8:00, Brussel, Morton K wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:D99981D3-2E6F-404C-A347-911E349510B7@illinois.edu" type="cite">
Unfortunately, the official story also has many holes: it was
unsatisfactory. The composition of the investigating panel didn't help.
One does not have to believe in a grand conspiracy, but a small
conspiracy hiding information which should have been revealed is not
implausible. Much still lies in the dark. (Why were the Saudis flown
out so quickly?) That is why continual questioning is useful in my
view.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--mkb</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Sep 20, 2013, at 11:29 AM, Ricky Baldwin wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
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<div><span>I haven't read Fetzer's book on the evolution of
intelligence, which does interesting, but if I have read Chomsky's
writings on the Kennedy assassination and 9/11, as well as a decent
amount about Chomsky's linguistics, and I have to say I think Fetzer
mischaracterizes Chomky's arguments badly. </span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>...although not as badly as the offhand remark by Wayne
below that Chomsky supposedly seems to support 'big government.' And
you can't really talk about an idea unless you have a fair
representation of it.</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Just for a brief example, Chomsky argues that US policy was
fairly consistent on some major concerns before, during, and after the
Kennedy Administration. Fetzer points to what Kennedy may have
been going to do. Think about the difference. Ultimately, of course,
I do not know what happened to Kennedy in 1963 for sure, but Chomsky
makes a compelling case and not just about the supposed effect on
policy. I'm not going through it all here. You can read it for
yourself. Fetzer's comment at the end of this "rabbit hole" interview
is a good one - he encourages people to find out what's going on for
themselves, as does Chomsky. They also both encourage critical
thinking, which is needed in this thread.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Another important argument worth mentioning,
though, about some of this type of what are generally known as
'conspiracy' theories - although Fetzer is correct that the official
story about who brought down the Twin Towers is also a conspiracy, in
fact - is the number of people who would be needed to keep it quiet
and running smoothly. Andrew O Baoill mentions it below.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The number of people who would have to be involved in keeping
quiet the alleged faking of the moonshots is astronomical (no pun
intended). But more importantly, the number of people Fetzer describes
as keeping quiet about 9/11 is pretty incredible, too. First would the
planning and execution of such an act - a hoax, mind you, on a scale
that has never before been attempted as far as we know (and much
smaller ones, like the Gulf of Tonkin and the weapons factory/baby
formula destroyed by US cruise missile attack, have been found out).
Such an undertaking would require an extensive network of conspirators
in various part of the world just to get certain individuals on the
planes, create phone conversations that could be intercepted, etc.,
hijack the planes and make it through various levels of security, and
either load huge amounts of explosives and such into the towers past
security (or with their collaboration, too?) or develope a theoretical
version of nanothermite which includes unknown stuff at the atomic
level or use an unknown material or keep all kinds of super weapons
quiet. Such a thing could be just possible, but no good evidence of it
exists, and since it's a pretty big claim, we'd want some pretty good
evidence. There's an awful lot of speculation here mixed in with the
questions about the official story.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Everything would have to come off pretty much without a hitch,
too, which defies experience with so many previous schemes that it's
hard to even see how anyone could buy it. (The official story, by
contrast, does include the ordinary human error we have come to
expect. The third plane was diverted the hijackers couldn't control
the passengers, a couple calls got out, fighters scrambled but didn't
know where to go, etc.)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Fetzer also claims in the "rabbit hole' interview that any
structural or mechanical engineer with any training to speak of, or
words to that effect, should know that the official account can't be
even remotely correct - and that they are virtually ALL (thousands of
people) keeping quiet because they are afraid they'll lose government
contracts and the like. The 'truthers' are alway saying the official
story is "not possible." Well, so was flight, breaking the sound
barrier, and so on. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But which story is
more feasible, the official story that a small conspiracy was able to
crash three planes - two into their intended targets - and destroy big
buildings and kill lots of people, or a much much larger conspiracy was
able to not only do all that as well as fake such an event in plain
view of the entire world, with the addition of engineering whatever is
actually supposed to have brought the towers down?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Given how many spy operations have been exposed recently -
British spying on Belgian phones in the news today, reporters
hacking famous people's phones, all the way back to Watergate and
before - it seems hard to believe that there wouldn't be a squealer or
just a little hard evidence of some of these things. OK, that's just a
really big pile of questions, not proof that Fetzer's wrong. But for
my 2c what he and the 9/11 'truthers' are asking us to believe is a lot
bigger with a lot less evidence than the official story. That leaves
me, anticlimatically, with the official story. We all saw it on TV.
It sure looked like what the officials tell us. I read and watch
Youtube to get what the 'truthers' say, and it just isn't good enough.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Absent something better than what I've seen so far, I'd have
to include the 'truther' movement with the 'birther' movement that is
severely under-convincing. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Ricky Baldwin</div>
<div><br>
<br>
</div>
<div>"Speak your mind, even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn<br>
</div>
<br>
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<font face="Arial" size="2"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
James Fetzer <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jfetzer@d.umn.edu">jfetzer@d.umn.edu</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> E. Wayne Johnson
朱稳森 <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ewj@pigsqq.org">ewj@pigsqq.org</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> Stephen Francis
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com">stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a>>;
"<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:andrew@funferal.org">andrew@funferal.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:andrew@funferal.org">andrew@funferal.org</a>>;
"<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com">sftalk@yahoogroups.com</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com">sftalk@yahoogroups.com</a>>;
"<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>>;
David Gehrig <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org">david-cu@nukulele.org</a>> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday,
September 19, 2013 11:37 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[Peace-discuss] [sftalk] [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on 9/11 Truth
Conference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library<br>
</font></div>
<div class="y_msg_container"><wbr>
<div id="yiv3073299626">
<div dir="ltr">It actually very simple. I am interested in
evidence-based history.
<div>I resent the lies and the lying liars who feed them to the
public,</div>
<div>where they are aided and abetted by many exactly like Gehrig.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="yiv3073299626" style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; border-collapse: collapse;">
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<h3><a moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);" href="http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D2gFB4VjcmJw&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CBsQtwIwAA&sig2=Y3d6Ng9d6rzMZJhpTO7D3g&usg=AFQjCNGem6eKja7dt5Kg7fN7bpzhbDc48w" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><b>Fetzer on Chomsky</b>: Linguistics
& 9/11 - <b>YouTube</b></a></h3>
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<div style="width: 116px; min-height: 65px;"><a moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);" href="http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D2gFB4VjcmJw&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CBwQuAIwAFAB&sig2=Y3d6Ng9d6rzMZJhpTO7D3g&usg=AFQjCNGem6eKja7dt5Kg7fN7bpzhbDc48w" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">
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► 7:15</div>
</a></div>
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<td style="margin: 0px; padding-top: 1px; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" valign="top">
<cite>www.<b>youtube</b>.com/watch?v=2gFB4VjcmJw</cite><span><span><span>Aug
2, 2007</span> - <span>7 min</span> - <span>Uploaded by Yoryevrah</span></span><br>
James H. <b>Fetzer</b>, prof. of philosophy (U.of Minnesota, Duluth,
ret.), critiques Noam <b>Chomsky's</b> <b>...</b></span></td>
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<h3><a moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);" href="http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DWKKDmuqMOaA&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CCAQtwIwAQ&sig2=ei2yazg-wnPPI_iUwo63kA&usg=AFQjCNFdupSrkUFN1s3Ft1sIY29AmgrGfA" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr. Jim <b>Fetzer</b>/ Noam <b>Chomsky's</b> faulty
LINGUISTICS <b>...</b> - <b>YouTube</b></a></h3>
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<div style="width: 116px; min-height: 65px;"><a moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);" href="http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DWKKDmuqMOaA&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CCEQuAIwAVAB&sig2=ei2yazg-wnPPI_iUwo63kA&usg=AFQjCNFdupSrkUFN1s3Ft1sIY29AmgrGfA" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">
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► 27:21</div>
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<cite>www.<b>youtube</b>.com/watch?v=WKKDmuqMOaA</cite><span><span><span>Apr
27, 2007</span> - <span>27 min</span> - <span>Uploaded by paulagloria</span></span><br>
Noam <b>Chomsky</b> has let down many truth activists and given clear
indication of working with <b>...<br>
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<div class="yiv3073299626gmail_extra"><wbr><wbr>
<div class="yiv3073299626gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 10:44
PM, "E. Wayne Johnson 朱稳森"
<span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ewj@pigsqq.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:ewj@pigsqq.org">ewj@pigsqq.org</a>></span> wrote:<wbr>
<blockquote class="yiv3073299626gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>Mr. Gehrig, like his idol and mentor<wbr> Mr. ne'
Heidler/Schickelgruber,<wbr> is a really nice guy actually,<wbr> just
poorly understood as such.<wbr>
<wbr>It is not appropriate to generalize from Gehrig<wbr> and
make somebody else's Kampf our own kampfire.<wbr>
<wbr>But-<wbr> <wbr>The sinking of the Maine.<wbr> The Kennedy
assassination(s).<wbr> The Gulf of Tonkin incident.<wbr> The murder of
MLKJr.<wbr> The various nefarious acts of the CIA<wbr> The 9/11
questions.<wbr>
<wbr>etc., etc., etc.<wbr> <wbr>Mother, should I trust the
Government?<wbr> <wbr>
Chomsky et al seem to want better Government.<wbr> <wbr>Some of us
think that no Government at all would be better,<wbr> but it seems that
Men are not ready for that.
<wbr><wbr>People like Fetzer do serve a useful function in the
Society.<wbr> They throw out a net and get many fishes, some good some
bad.<wbr> It's not up to veebleFetzer to sort them out. That's up to<wbr>
you the reader.<wbr>
<wbr>Mr. Francis has seen the Government at some of its worst,<wbr>
up close, and personal-like.<wbr> It's reasonable for him to mistrust
it.<wbr>
<wbr>The mime of disease in the amerikan society is something<wbr>
like the persistent infection produced by Pestiviruses.
<wbr>The host cant quite get pissed off enough to get rid of the <wbr>infection,
and the bug doesnt kill the host. The host<wbr> gives birth to
diseased and deformed and weakened offspring<wbr> a percentage of which
become persistently infected and maintain<wbr> the infection through
generations.<wbr> <wbr>Somehow the amerikan society gains various
benefits from the memes<wbr> and clings to the them, even defends the
virus from threats.
<div>
<div class="yiv3073299626h5"><wbr><wbr><wbr><wbr>On 09/20/13
10:52, Stephen Francis wrote:
</div>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div class="yiv3073299626h5">
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<div><span>You've confirmed my point by making light of
it...you have no idea what those experiences bring to a person.</span></div>
<div><wbr></div>
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<font face="Arial"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
David Gehrig
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org">mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Stephen
Francis <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com">
mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com">
mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com</a> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com">
mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com</a>; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:andrew@funferal.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:andrew@funferal.org">
mailto:andrew@funferal.org</a> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:andrew@funferal.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:andrew@funferal.org">
mailto:andrew@funferal.org</a>; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">
mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">
mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>; Jim Fetzer <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jfetzer@d.umn.edu" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jfetzer@d.umn.edu">
mailto:jfetzer@d.umn.edu</a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday,
September 19, 2013 7:07 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[sftalk] [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on 9/11 Truth Conference,
Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library<br>
</font></div>
<div><wbr>
<div>
<div>
<div>What's disgraceful, Fetzer, is you. </div>
<div><wbr></div>
<div>I'd like to believe that at some point Steve will figure
out why. But as long as you keep him barking-mad up the wrong tree, I
don't expect it. </div>
<div><wbr></div>
<div>Also, by the way, Dr O-boyo, can I shoot at you? That will
render all of your opinions correct, apparently. Cheaper than a second
PhD!</div>
<div><wbr>@%<</div>
<div><wbr>On Sep 19, 2013, at 8:52 PM, Stephen Francis <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com">stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<wbr>
<wbr></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
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<div>
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<div>
<div>From James Fetzer Ph.D.<wbr> <wbr></div>
It is disgraceful to see an academician abuse his position to curtail<wbr>
</div>
debate on the most important event of the 21st C. by "installing<wbr> </div>
filters". He dismisses my research WITHOUT EVEN STUDYING<wbr> </div>
THE EVIDENCE. I am quite confident he has not read any of the<wbr>
links that I have provided about 9/11 or Sandy Hook or the Boston<wbr>
bombing, for example. By embracing the moon landings without<wbr>
</div>
considering the arguments, he is embracing the occurrence of a<wbr>
series of events that are neither physically nor aerodynamically<wbr>
possible--very much as THE 9/11 COMMISSION REPORT was<wbr> based upon
any number of additional impossibilities. This is the<wbr> easy way
out: avoid the evidence and the issues at all cost since<wbr> they may
show that beliefs he has entertained are indefensible.<wbr>
<wbr></div>
He does not even appreciate the hypocrisy in attacking me without<wbr>
bothering to study any of my arguments on any of these questions.<wbr>
I am overwhelmed with contempt for the contemptible fashion in<wbr>
which he obviates the standards of reason and rationality by the <wbr>
expedient of cutting off discussion and debate and adopting the<wbr>
ostrich policy. When there is too much heat, he shuts down the<wbr>
kitchen. The man is a perfect example of an intellectual bully <wbr>
and a coward who abuses his position to give a false impression<wbr> of
principle, when he is demonstrating that he possesses none.<wbr> And
that is manifest in his infatuation with Noam Chomsky, where <wbr> he
seems oblivious of his mentor's gross intellectual deficiencies:<wbr>
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<h3 style="margin: 1em 0px; padding: 0px;"><a moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(40, 98, 197); outline-width: 0px; outline-style: none;" href="http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D2gFB4VjcmJw&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CBsQtwIwAA&sig2=Y3d6Ng9d6rzMZJhpTO7D3g&usg=AFQjCNGem6eKja7dt5Kg7fN7bpzhbDc48w" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><b>Fetzer on Chomsky</b>: Linguistics
& 9/11 - <b>YouTube</b></a></h3>
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► 7:15</div>
</a></div>
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<td style="padding-top: 1px; border-spacing: 2px;" valign="top"><cite>www.<b>youtube</b>.com/watch?v=2gFB4VjcmJw</cite><span><span><span>Aug
2, 2007</span> - <span>7 min</span> - <span>Uploaded by Yoryevrah</span></span><br>
James H. <b>Fetzer</b>, prof. of philosophy (U.of Minnesota, Duluth,
ret.), critiques Noam <b>Chomsky's</b> <b>...</b></span></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
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<h3 style="margin: 1em 0px; padding: 0px;"><a moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(40, 98, 197); outline-width: 0px; outline-style: none;" href="http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DWKKDmuqMOaA&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CCAQtwIwAQ&sig2=ei2yazg-wnPPI_iUwo63kA&usg=AFQjCNFdupSrkUFN1s3Ft1sIY29AmgrGfA" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr. Jim <b>Fetzer</b>/ Noam <b>Chomsky's</b> faulty
LINGUISTICS <b>...</b> - <b>YouTube</b></a></h3>
</td>
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<div style="overflow: hidden; width: 116px; min-height: 65px;"><a moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(40, 98, 197); outline-width: 0px; outline-style: none;" href="http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DWKKDmuqMOaA&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CCEQuAIwAVAB&sig2=ei2yazg-wnPPI_iUwo63kA&usg=AFQjCNFdupSrkUFN1s3Ft1sIY29AmgrGfA" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">
<div><img moz-do-not-send="true" style="border-width: 0px;" alt="" width="116" align="middle" border="0"></div>
<div style="padding: 1px 3px; text-align: right; color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 11px; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none; background-color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">
► 27:21</div>
</a></div>
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<td style="padding-top: 1px; border-spacing: 2px;" valign="top"><cite>www.<b>youtube</b>.com/watch?v=WKKDmuqMOaA</cite><span><span><span>Apr
27, 2007</span> - <span>27 min</span> - <span>Uploaded by paulagloria</span></span><br>
Noam <b>Chomsky</b> has let down many truth activists and given clear
indication of working with <b>...<br>
<br>
</b></span></td>
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<div style="color: rgb(69, 69, 69); font-size: 12px;"><wbr></div>
<div style="color: rgb(69, 69, 69); font-size: 12px;">Jim<wbr>
<wbr></div>
<div style="color: rgb(69, 69, 69); font-size: 12px;">James
H. Fetzer, Ph.D.<wbr> McKnight Professor Emeritus<wbr> University of
Minnesota Duluth<wbr>
</div>
<div><span></span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(69, 69, 69); font-size: 12px;"><a moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(40, 98, 197); outline-width: 0px; outline-style: none;" href="http://www.d.umn.edu/%7Ejfetzer" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.d.umn.edu/~jfetzer</a></div>
<div><wbr></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<div style="font-size: 12pt;">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="hr" style="border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 5px 0px; padding: 0px; height: 0px; line-height: 0pt; font-size: 0px;" readonly="true" contenteditable="false"></div>
<font face="Arial"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
Stephen Francis <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com">stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> "<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com">sftalk@yahoogroups.com</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com">sftalk@yahoogroups.com</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> "<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org">david-cu@nukulele.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org">david-cu@nukulele.org</a>>;
"<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>>;
Jim Fetzer <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jfetzer@d.umn.edu" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jfetzer@d.umn.edu">jfetzer@d.umn.edu</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Thursday, September 19, 2013 5:34 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[sftalk] [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on 9/11 Truth Conference,
Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library<br>
</font></div>
<div><wbr>
<div>
<div><span> </span>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<div><span>You (Mr. </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 13px;">Ó Baoill) speak so
eloquently in your lofty address to the issues of the day. You and all
your fellow Chomskyites speak the same language in that your really not
communicating ideas but rather reinforcing each others Chomskyism. It
must feel good and you are all so proud of yourselves as you flitter
amongst prose that glitters in the eye. You've probably never been
handcuffed and thrown down on the floor of a cage inside a dangerous
prison because of your glittery flittery. You've never been shot at
with rifles held by moronic souls who knew no better than to do what
their daddy told em. You've never been hungry or felt the mad pounding
in your chest as your heartbeat races knowing that your next word will
mean freedom or jail. You've never seen the look on a grown man's face
looking into the sentence on a official looking piece of paper that
says Vietnam is your next home. You've never heard the screams of
nightmares of groan men as they fight back the demons of heroin.
Please continue with your Chomsky bedside manner and keep your eyes in
the clouds of academic loft, because we know where the comfort of your
words come from. </span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<div style="font-size: 12pt;">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="hr" style="border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 5px 0px; padding: 0px; height: 0px; line-height: 0pt; font-size: 0px;" readonly="true" contenteditable="false"></div>
<font face="Arial"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
Dr Andrew Ó Baoill <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:andrew@funferal.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:andrew@funferal.org">andrew@funferal.org</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com">
sftalk@yahoogroups.com</a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org">
david-cu@nukulele.org</a>; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">
peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>; Jim Fetzer <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jfetzer@d.umn.edu" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jfetzer@d.umn.edu">jfetzer@d.umn.edu</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Thursday, September 19, 2013 4:14 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[sftalk] [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on 9/11 Truth Conference,
Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library<br>
</font></div>
<div><wbr>
<div>
<div><span> </span>
<div>
<div>I was travelling, so my response on this is delayed.</div>
<div><wbr></div>
<div>I've kept out of Truther threads for a variety of
reasons, but I feel compelled to interject, in case silence be taken as
implying consent and complicity.<wbr>
<wbr>On 9/11 Trutherism, I've largely agreed with Chomsky's
analysis - that the implication of a 'massive conspiracy' has too many
moving parts to pass Occam's razor, and that in any event, it distracts
from actually useful politics, as it heads down a rabbit hole.
(Incidentally, I understand that there will be responses claiming that
the the Truthers are agnostic on the question of a central conspiracy,
that it's a grouping of analyses, etc. I'm not going to try to get into
any of that because, frankly, I have neither the time nor interest.
Hence, my silence until now, like, I suspect, many if my comrades on
the list.)</div>
<div><wbr>However, with this latest thread we move into both
offensive and ridiculous territory.<wbr>
<wbr>Ridiculous first: Stephen says that James 'Jim' Fetzer
represents his views on every issue he can think of. Fetzer's summary
of his own beliefs include a claim that Sandy Hook was staged to garner
support for gun control. That's actually more offensive than
ridiculous. I trust the sane members of this list don't need me to
elaborate. On a lighter note Fetzer, bless his soul, clings to his
belief that the moon landings were staged. That one I did laugh at.<wbr>
<wbr>I'll jump to my main point: I'm implementing filters to
block and 'send to trash' all future mail from Mr. Francis (and,
pre-emptively, Mr. Fetzer). It saps my time, energy, and the value I
get from the Socialist Forum lists. I suspect that others have done
similarly. This mail is not an attempt or offer to enter into dialogue
with Francis or his like. The method of debate of professed generalized
conspiracy theorists fails several of the basic rules of debate,
including the building of trust with other participants, a desire to
reach consensus with those of disparate approaches, and a rational
approach to argument.<wbr>
<wbr>I feel it important, though, to first go on record, so
Mr. Francis and his ilk not be able read silence as acceptance. <wbr>
<wbr>Fetzer's Holocaust 'revisionism' is anti-semitic (and,
more broadly, anti-humanist), in that it distracts from central
questions about the totalizing violence and hatred that drove the
'final solution' with evasive and quibbling side issues that provide a
nod and a wink to fellow anti-semites, while leaving just enough room
for deniability. Fetzer is gracious enough to acknowledge 'abuse' by
the Nazis, but notably goes no further - and this is his own defense to
a critical audience. There are some attempts to muddy the water, to
mimic actual scholarship that seeks to add nuance and critical analysis
to narratives of the period, but to my mind, after viewing Fetzer's own
summary of his approach, the distinction is clear. In addition, as
Belden helpfully noted, it is possible (and, I'd suggest, important) to
distinguish criticism of Israel from anti-semitism.</div>
<div><wbr></div>
<div>I know there are those on this list whose families have
directly suffered in the Holocaust. My own son's family lost many
members - and as genocides are intended to, those who survived were
displaced and lost any connection to the land that had been their home.
I cannot help but wonder - briefly, but not enough to desire a response
from Fetzer/Francis/etc. - if these 'revisionists' would apply a
similar logic to the Irish experience, and seek to erase the violence
that we were subjected to through the colonial experience.</div>
<div>
<div><span style="border-collapse: separate;"><span style="text-transform: none; text-indent: 0px; letter-spacing: normal; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; white-space: normal; border-collapse: separate;">
<div>
<div><wbr></div>
<div>Andrew</div>
<div><wbr></div>
<div>Dr. Andrew Ó Baoill<wbr> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:andrew@funferal.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:andrew@funferal.org">
andrew@funferal.org</a></div>
</div>
</span></span></div>
<wbr>
<div>
<div>On 17 MFómh 2013, at 23:20, Stephen Francis <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com">stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<wbr>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><span> </span>
<div>
<div><wbr></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<div style="font-size: 10pt;"><span>I'm passing Jim's
response to David Gehrig on to the group(s)...</span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;">
<span>and would like to reiterate my enthusiastic support
for James Fetzer. I have much to learn from him. He and I are on the
same page every issue that I can think of.</span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;">
<span>I again take exception to remarks like the one below:</span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;">
<span><span>"Steve Francis, by his selection of Jim Fetzer
and Kevin Barrett, has made it clear that he has aligned himself with
the Jew-hating wing of trooferdom."</span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;">
<span><span style="font-size: 16px;">I reiterate my support
for the following JEWISH organizations.</span></span></div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(0, 51, 102); font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;" href="http://www.nkusa.org/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">NKUSA</a><span style="color: rgb(53, 53, 53); font-size: 16px;">, </span><a moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(0, 51, 102); font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;" href="http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/satmar.htm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">JewsNotZionists</a><span style="color: rgb(53, 53, 53); font-size: 16px;">, </span><a moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(0, 51, 102); font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;" href="http://www.inminds.co.uk/jews-against-zionism.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">JewsAgainstZion</a><span style="color: rgb(53, 53, 53); font-size: 16px;">, </span><a moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(0, 51, 102); font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;" href="http://rense.com/general54/thank.htm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">JewsAgainstZionism</a><span style="color: rgb(53, 53, 53); font-size: 16px;">, </span><a moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(0, 51, 102); font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;" href="http://www.ijsn.net/home/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">International
Jewish AntiZionist Network</a><span style="color: rgb(53, 53, 53); font-size: 16px;">, </span><a moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(0, 51, 102); font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;" href="https://www.facebook.com/pages/American-Jews-Solidarity-Against-Zionism/318506794911703" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">American Jews Solidarity Against Zionism</a><span style="color: rgb(53, 53, 53); font-size: 16px;">, </span><a moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(0, 51, 102); font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;" href="http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=762" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Rabbis
Against Zionism</a><span style="color: rgb(53, 53, 53); font-size: 16px;">, </span><a moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(0, 51, 102); font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;" href="http://www.israelversusjudaism.org/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">IsraelVersusJudaism</a><font color="#353535">. These
people created their organizations for a specific reason of which they
are highly dedicated. </font><wbr>
</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;">
<span style="color: rgb(53, 53, 53); font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">See Jim's response below:</span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<div style="font-size: 12pt;">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="hr" style="border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 5px 0px; padding: 0px; height: 0px; line-height: 0pt; font-size: 0px;" readonly="true" contenteditable="false"></div>
<font face="Arial"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
James Fetzer <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jfetzer@d.umn.edu" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jfetzer@d.umn.edu">jfetzer@d.umn.edu</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Stephen
Francis <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com">stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Tuesday, September 17, 2013 7:34 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[OccupyCU] News Gazette article on 9/11 Truth Conference, Sept. 22,
Urbana Free Library<br>
</font></div>
<div><wbr>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Steve,
<div><wbr></div>
<div>Kindly post this as my response to the completely
unwarranted claims made by: <span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; border-collapse: collapse;">
<table style="border-collapse: collapse;" cellpadding="0">
<tbody>
<tr style="min-height: 16px;">
<td style="text-align: left; font-family: arial,sans-serif; vertical-align: top; white-space: nowrap;">
<table style="border-collapse: collapse; table-layout: fixed;" cellpadding="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>
<div><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-weight: bold; vertical-align: top; white-space: nowrap;"><br>
David Gehrig</span> <span style="vertical-align: top;"><font color="#555555"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org">david-cu@nukulele.org</a>>
appears to be the epitome of arrogance
<br>
driven by ignorance. I</font><font color="#555555">n his completely
gratuitous dismissal of my positions, which
<br>
he supports exclusively by a very odd quote taken </font><font color="#555555">out of context. Does he not
<br>
know that the figure 6,000,000 was being bandied about as early as 1890</font> <font color="#555555">and has
<br>
'a theological or ideological origin. It has nothing to do with the
history of WWII,
<br>
including of </font><font color="#555555">course the Holocaust, which
he may not realized would not take place
<br>
for another 40 or 50 years. But spare me more about the Holocaust!<br>
<br>
I </font><font color="#555555">have spelled out my position on a very
wide range of complex and controversial
<br>
subjects, about which it </font><font color="#555555">appears he knows
nothing at all. If he would like to show
<br>
me wrong, THEN SHOW ME WRONG. Pick the subject on </font>which he
thinks I am <br>
most likely to be wrong. Explain my position and why I hold it, then
spell out what
<br>
he thinks I have wrong and why. I find it completely insulting
to everyone whom he
<br>
addresses that he can make pompous pronouncements with no proof! <br>
<br>
<font color="#555555">Here is a thumbnail
sketch of my positions on issues that have arisen on the thread: </font><br>
<font color="#555555"> <br>
</font><span style="color: rgb(53, 53, 53); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; white-space: normal; border-collapse: separate;"><font>9/11
was not committed by 19 Islamic terrorists who hijacked four commercial
airliners and outfoxed the most sophisticated air-defense system in the
world;
<div>the Wellstone plane crash was not an
accident, as the NTSB reported, but was very carefully contrived for
the GOP to take control of the Senate and launch wars;</div>
<div>the Holocaust has been exaggerated for
political reasons, including war crimes by the allies in the form of
collective punishment of German cities, which they needed to conceal;</div>
<div>JFK was hit four times--in the throat from
in front, in the back from behind, and twice in the head (from behind
and from the right-front)--where Lee Oswald didn't do it;</div>
<div>the moon landing was easier to pull off
than most realize, as the film, "Capricorn I", releals, where Stanly
Kubrick seems to have faked the landings for the government;</div>
<div>the Boston bombing was an obvious fraud,
where the Craft International perps had been outed by the alternative
press already the evening of the event itself; and,</div>
<div>the Sandy Hook event was staged to promote
gun control, which fell short but not for a lack of trying. </div>
<div>Check out <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="http://www.veteranstoday.com/author/fetzer/" style="color: rgb(0, 51, 102); font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; text-decoration: none;" href="http://www.veteranstoday.com/author/fetzer/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.veteranstoday.com/author/fetzer/</a> for my
and other's articles about them. </div>
<div>If anyone thinks I am wrong about any of
this, just take a look at the evidence and tell me what I have wrong
and how you know, so I can take your arguments into account. </div>
<div>Most of us don't have the luxury or the
background or the ability to take this on, but I am a professional
scholar who has been devoting himself to their study since my
retirement.</div>
<div>I am not happy with what we have found,
but the core of rationality is to adapt your beliefs to the available
relevant evidence. For an explanation of how this can be done, consider</div>
<div>"Thinking about 'Conspiracy Theories':
9/11 and JFK", which provides an introduction to "inference to the best
explanation" in reasoning about cases like these at <a moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(0, 51, 102); font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; text-decoration: none;" href="http://www.d.umn.edu/%7Ejfetzer/fetzerexpandedx.pdf" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.d.umn.edu/~jfetzer/fetzerexpandedx.pdf</a></div>
<div>I have benefited from collaborating with
authorities in different domains, such as a world authority on the
human brain and expert on wound ballistics, a Ph.D. in physics who is
also an M.D. and board certified in radiation oncology;</div>
<div>an M.D. who was present when JFK was
brought into Trauma Room #1 and two days later was responsible for the
treatment of his alleged assassin in Trauma Room #2, a legendary photo
analyst and another Ph.D. in electromagnetism.</div>
<div>In relation to 9/11, I have similarly
benefitted from collaboration with physicists, pilots, engineers
(structural, mechanical, aeronautical, and chemical), which has enabled
me to sort things out on the basis of experts in areas where I am not.</div>
<div>Since David insists that I have "put my
reputation through a wood chipper", as he so cavalierly puts it, let
him choose the subject among those I've listed and SHOW WHAT I HAVE
WRONG. He can pick the subject and explain what I say about it and
why, then explain what I have wrong and how he knows. I don't think he
can prevail on any of these subjects and if he cannot, then we will
have proof positive he is the ignoramus who has no idea what he's
talking about, which is already apparent to me. So he can take up my
challenge or crawl back into the hole he came out of. The world will
know he's a total fraud.</div>
<div>Jim</div>
</font></span></span></div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</span> </div>
</div>
<div><wbr><wbr>
<div>On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 8:15 PM, David Gehrig <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org">david-cu@nukulele.org</a>></span>
wrote:<wbr>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);">
<div>I'm not going to get caught up in a tedious cycle of
reply to reply to reply, mostly because Jim Fetzer has already done me
the favor of putting his reputation here through the wood chipper, so
thoroughly in fact that there are hardly any large chunks left that
need addressing. So here's my sole reply to this thread.</div>
<div><wbr></div>
<div>I long ago decided that there was an upper limit to
the politeness a Holocaust denier can expect, so I hope you don't
expect that through some sense of faux collegiality I will pretend I
don't notice how Fetzer's remarks reek of eau d'Naziboy.</div>
<div><wbr></div>
<div>What is Fetzer's argument about the number of
Holocaust dead based on? He points to a website article of the form
"What is it with the lying Jews and their fetish about the number six
million? They're polluting the minds of white children." Here's a
direct quote from the article Fetzer found so persuasive: </div>
<div><wbr></div>
<div>"The primary function of this insidious global
propaganda campaign is to -- quite simply -- brainwash non-Jews into a
state of abject fear and paralysis while we are ideologically,
economically, and physically enslaved by the Jewish tribe."</div>
<div><wbr></div>
<div>Now, remember, that's an article that Fetzer not
only doesn't find racially problematic, not only finds agreeable, not
only doesn't set off his racism alarm, but finds so sunnily agreeable
to his worldview that he actually recommended it to the rest of this
list as an example of the sort of thing that shapes his thoughts on the
topic.</div>
<div><wbr></div>
<div>I've long felt that 9/11 trooferdom, while always
quite stupid, was not inherently antisemitic. It has its Jew-haters,
sure, but that doesn't mean everyone.</div>
<div><wbr></div>
<div>Steve Francis, by his selection of Jim Fetzer and
Kevin Barrett, has made it clear that he has aligned himself with the
Jew-hating wing of trooferdom. </div>
<div><wbr></div>
<div>The sad part is, I don't think that Steve Francis is
motivated by antisemitism. I just think he's so completely credulous,
he doesn't do the most rudimentary gut-check of the antisemitic slop
people like Fetzer feed him.</div>
<div><wbr>@%<</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><wbr>On Sep 17, 2013, at 3:29 PM, Stephen Francis
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com">stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<wbr>
<wbr></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<div><span>This is James Fetzer's response to David
Gehrig's post (below)</span></div>
<div><wbr></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<div style="font-size: 12pt;">
<div dir="ltr">----- Forwarded Message -----<wbr> <font face="Arial"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
James Fetzer <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jfetzer@d.umn.edu" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jfetzer@d.umn.edu">jfetzer@d.umn.edu</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
Stephen Francis <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com">stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Tuesday, September 17, 2013 12:49 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: Fw: [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on 9/11 Truth Conference, Sept.
22, Urbana Free Library<br>
</font></div>
<div><wbr>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><wbr></div>
<div>Someone is willfully misinterpreting, but that
ain't me. I am a Holocaust REVISIONIST,</div>
<div>because I believe we have inherited a grossly
exaggerated account of the events that</div>
<div>are alleged to have taken place at the end of
WWII. The number of alleged "victims" of</div>
<div>the Holocaust, 6,000,000, for example, appears to
be a number that has theological or</div>
<div>ideological origins and is not historically
accurate. See, for example, a study discussing</div>
<div>the origins of the 6,000,000 myth at <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://zioncrimefactory.com/the-six-million-myth/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">
http://zioncrimefactory.com/the-six-million-myth/</a></div>
<div><wbr></div>
<div>Moreover, the Nuremberg Tribunals appear to have
presented a biased case to convey</div>
<div>the impression that the Nazis were responsible for
the extensive starvation of inmates</div>
<div>at internment camps, when, as Robert Faurisson,
"Against Hollywoodism, Revisionism", </div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://robertfaurisson.blogspot.com/2012/02/against-hollywoodism-revisionism.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://robertfaurisson.blogspot.com/2012/02/against-hollywoodism-revisionism.html</a>
has</div>
<div>explained, that was a consequence of Allied
bombing of German cities, which interdicted</div>
<div>railroad lines and made it impossible to resupply
the camps, leading to mass starvation.</div>
<div>Ironically, the Tribunals found that collective
punishment is a war crime, which the Allies</div>
<div>appear to have been keen to cover-up by
attributing the starvation to the Nazis instead.</div>
<div><wbr></div>
<div>There are many other reasons to doubt the
"official account" of the Holocaust. I do not</div>
<div>DENY that Jews, gypsies and the mentally and
physically infirm were abused by Nazis,</div>
<div>but the nature of that abuse appears to have been
exaggerated for political purposes. It</div>
<div>is no coincidence that the allegation of being a
"Holocaust denier" is raised against any</div>
<div>one who is remotely critical of the actions or
policies of the government of Israel, which</div>
<div>may qualify as "anti-Zionist" but does not qualify
as "anti-Semitic". For more, I have a</div>
<div>half-dozen or more interviews on "The Real Deal"
discussing Holocaust mythology at</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://radiofetzer.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://radiofetzer.blogspot.com/</a>.
Anyone can go there and do a search on "Holocaust".</div>
<div><wbr></div>
<div>I published an article about this question, "Is
9/11 research 'anti-Semitic'?" in 2009. It</div>
<div>is offensive that Zionist organizations and
individuals continue to attack all of us who</div>
<div>are trying to make sense of the evidence about the
Holocaust and to counter the false</div>
<div>account of history that these exaggerated attacks
entail, which play upon a sense of</div>
<div>Western guilt to manipulate the public to promote
the political agenda of Israel. There</div>
<div>is more that could be said here, but I would like
to think this is enough. I have most</div>
<div>recently laid out my views on these questions in
an article in Veterans Today 2013:</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/06/04/anti-anti-semitism-and-the-search-for-historical-truth/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/06/04/anti-anti-semitism-and-the-search-for-historical-truth/</a><wbr>
</div>
<div><wbr></div>
<div><wbr></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);">
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">----- Forwarded Message -----</span><wbr> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<div style="font-size: 12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> David Gehrig <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org">david-cu@nukulele.org</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
Stephen Francis <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com">stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b>
occupycu <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:occupyCU@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:occupyCU@lists.chambana.net">occupyCU@lists.chambana.net</a>>;
"<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>>;
sftalk <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com">sftalk@yahoogroups.com</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Tuesday, September 17, 2013 8:40 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on 9/11 Truth Conference, Sept. 22,
Urbana Free Library<br>
</font></div>
<div><wbr>
<div>
<div>Is that the same Jim Fetzer who says the Nazis
only killed 600,000 Jews in the Holocaust, based on his willful
misinterpretation of an ICRC document? Why, yes it is. </div>
<div><wbr></div>
<div>You're not doing a very good job disentangling
yourself from the Holocaust denial movement, are you. </div>
<div><wbr>@%<</div>
<div><wbr>On Sep 17, 2013, at 6:28 AM, Stephen
Francis <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com">stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<wbr>
<wbr></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<h2 style="color: rgb(53, 53, 53); font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif;"><br>
</h2>
<h2 style="color: rgb(53, 53, 53); font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign="top">
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">Hello all,</span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">The News Gazette has published an
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2013-09-16/sunday-conference-focus-911-attacks.html#comment-516074" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">article</a> (and below) on The Midwest
9/11 Truth Conference this Sunday at the Urbana Free Library, in the
auditorium from 1:30-4:45pm. Again, the speakers are </span><span style="font-size: 13px;">three highly knowledgeable experts on 9/11
Truth including James Fetzer Ph.D. (founder of </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 127); font-size: 16px;"><a moz-do-not-send="true" style="font-size: 13px; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: none;" href="http://911scholars.org/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Scholars
for 9/11 Truth</a><span style="font-size: 13px;">)</span></span><span style="color: rgb(69, 69, 69); font-size: 13px;">,</span><span style="font-size: 13px;"> Wayne Madsen (editor of </span><span><a moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 127); font-size: 13px; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: none;" href="http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">WayneMadsenReport.com</a>,<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 127); font-size: 16px;"> </span><span style="font-size: 13px;">Washington D.C.</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 127); font-size: 13px;">)</span></span><span style="color: rgb(69, 69, 69); font-size: 13px;">
</span><span style="font-size: 13px;">and
Kevin Barrett (co-founder of the</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 127); font-size: 13px;"> </span><a moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 127); font-size: 13px; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: none;" href="http://www.mujca.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Muslim
Jewish Christian Alliance for 9/11 Truth</a><span style="font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 127);">). </span><span>The
conference is hosted by
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/uc911truth/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">UC 9/11 Truth Urbana-Champaign</a> and <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://newsfollowup.com/midwest_911_truth_conference_champaign-urbana_september_2013_newsfollowup.htm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">
NewsFollowUp.com</a> ... see Facebook <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.facebook.com/events/394502717338293/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">
Event</a> </span></span><span> email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:info@midwest911truth.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:info@midwest911truth.com">
info@midwest911truth.com</a></span></div>
<div style="font-size: 16px; font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 127);"><span style="font-size: 13px;"><br>
</span></span></div>
<div style="font-size: 16px; font-weight: normal;"><span><span style="font-size: 13px;">
<div style="background-color: transparent;">The
world has changed dramatically since 9/11. Citizens of the U.S. have
seen a precipitous erosion in basic Constitutional <span style="background-color: transparent;">rights since 9/11. This
usurpation of rights has been directly tied to the creation of
government entities and legislation, such as the </span><span style="background-color: transparent;">Department of </span><span style="background-color: transparent;">Homeland Security, the Patriot
Act, the Military Commissions Act, the NDAA and revelation of massive
surveillance of the American people</span><span style="background-color: transparent;"> by NSA.</span></div>
<div style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="background-color: transparent;">The first component of the
conference will be to view the widely distributed and acclaimed
documentary film by the Architects & </span><span style="background-color: transparent;">Engineers for 9/11 Truth, '</span><span style="font-style: italic; background-color: transparent;">Explosive
Evidence: Experts Speak Out</span><span style="background-color: transparent;">'. Because </span><a moz-do-not-send="true" style="outline-width: 0px; outline-style: none; background-color: transparent;" href="http://www.ae911truth.org/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">AE911Truth.org</a><span style="background-color: transparent;"> is a highly significant leader
in the 9/11 </span></div>
<div style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="background-color: transparent;">Truth movement, its influential
documentary deserves careful </span><span style="background-color: transparent;">scrutiny insofar its</span><span style="background-color: transparent;"> conclusions are widely
regarded as providing crucial evidence for future legal action</span>. </div>
<div style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><br>
</span></div>
</span></span></div>
</td>
<td valign="top"><span><img moz-do-not-send="true"><br>
</span></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</span></h2>
<div>
<table style="color: rgb(53, 53, 53); font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-weight: bold;">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign="top">
<div style="font-size: 16px; font-weight: normal;"><span><span style="font-size: 13px;"><span style="background-color: transparent;">James
Fetzer, Ph.D., will assess the A&E</span><span style="background-color: transparent;"> documentary and report the
latest scientific findings about how it was done, where all sides agree
that</span> the Twin Towers could not have been brought down by the
impact of airliners and resulting fires.. His analysis of the science
of 9/11 will be complemented by Wayne Madsen's analysis of who was
responsible and why. Kevin Barrett will moderate and add his
perspective to all of these issues.
<br>
<div style="background-color: transparent;"><span><span style="background-color: transparent;">We seek to </span><span style="background-color: transparent;">find answers to legitimate
questions about 9/11</span><span style="background-color: transparent;"> and
to enable credible prosecutors to bring the perpetrators for these acts
to </span></span></div>
<div style="background-color: transparent;"><span><span style="background-color: transparent;">justice. </span><span style="background-color: transparent;">There is a vast amount of
evidence gathered to support </span><span style="background-color: transparent;">this belief and has led to the
conclusion that neo-cons in the US were aided by the intelligence
services of other countries. Supporters</span><span style="background-color: transparent;"> of the 9/11 Truth </span><span style="background-color: transparent;">movement, including local
members of UC 9/11 Truth Urbana Champaign, </span><span style="background-color: transparent;">demand a new independent and
international investigation of 9/11.</span></span></div>
<br>
We invite all to attend. The conference is free and open to the public.
Thank youSteve Francis
<div style="background-color: transparent;"><span><span style="background-color: transparent;">UC 9/11 Truth Urbana-Champaign
email:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:info@midwest911truth.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:info@midwest911truth.com">info@midwest911truth.com</a></span></span></div>
<br>
<br>
News Gazette article:
<div style="color: rgb(69, 69, 69); background-color: transparent;"><span style="background-color: transparent;">
<h2 style="color: rgb(53, 53, 53);">Sunday
conference to focus on 9/11 attacks</h2>
</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(69, 69, 69);"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><br>
</span></div>
</span></span></div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
<div style="color: rgb(53, 53, 53); font-size: 16px;"><span style="color: rgb(119, 119, 119);">
<div><span>Mon, 09/16/2013 - 7:40pm</span> | <span><a moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(0, 51, 102); font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; text-decoration: none;" href="http://www.news-gazette.com/author/news-gazette" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">The News-Gazette</a></span></div>
</span>
<div>
<div>URBANA — A conference planned this weekend in
Urbana will explore issues surrounding the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001.</div>
<div>The Midwest 9/11 Truth Conference will be held
at 1:30 p.m. Sunday in the auditorium of the Urbana Free Library, 210
W. Green St.</div>
<div>The event is sponsored by UC 9/11 Truth
Urbana-Champaign. (<span style="font-style: italic;">see Facebook</span>)</div>
<div>Admission is free and open to the public.</div>
<div>People who have been studying the events of
Sept. 11 will talk about their perspectives on the attacks.</div>
<div>"According to national and international
polls, nearly 30 percent of the population is skeptical of the
'official' version of the events of 9/11," said Steve Francis of UC
9/11 Truth Champaign-Urbana. "The 9/11 Commission Report is viewed as a
cover-up by a significant percentage of citizens and the 9/11 Truth
Movement seeks to find answers to these questions about the real cause
of those atrocities."</div>
<div>The conference will begin the presentation of
a documentary film, "Explosive Evidence: Experts Speak Out."</div>
<div>James Fetzer, the founder of Scholars for 9/11
Truth, will comment on the documentary and report on scientific
findings.</div>
<div>Wayne Madsen, editor of <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://waynemadsenreport.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">
WayneMadsenReport.com</a>, will provide an analysis of who may have
been responsible for the attacks and why.</div>
<div>Kevin Barrett, co-founder of the
Muslim-Jewish-Christian Alliance for 9/11 Truth, will serve as
moderator and will add his perspective on the issues.</div>
<div>For more information on the event, call Fetzer
at <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="x-msg://301/" rel="nofollow">
608-354-4280</a>.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><span>_______________________________________________</span><wbr>
<span>OccupyCU mailing list</span><wbr>
<span><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:OccupyCU@lists.chambana.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:OccupyCU@lists.chambana.net">OccupyCU@lists.chambana.net</a></span><wbr>
<span><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/occupycu" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/occupycu</a></span><wbr>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<wbr><wbr></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<wbr></div>
</div>
<wbr><wbr></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<wbr></div>
</div>
<wbr><wbr></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><wbr></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<wbr></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<wbr><wbr></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255); min-height: 0pt;">__._,_.___</div>
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