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For what it's worth, I intend to spend some of my Sunday to go and
listen to what the speakers at this conference have to say, and
maybe ask a few questions.<br>
<br>
I haven't taken the 9/11-truth movement very seriously, for the
following sort of reason: It may be interesting-if-true that a gov't
conspiracy was behind the destruction of the towers. But it's at
best hard to prove - as Ricky explained well - and I'd suggest that
it really doesn't change the situation much even if it *is* true.
A better framing might be: we already know that our gov't is
perfectly willing to use arbitrary violence on people all over the
world - and on people in prison, here. That should be a big deal
for us. Would it really change our position that much if we were
more confident that that willingness extended to "free" people
within the US, too?<br>
<br>
Regardless of who was behind those attacks, the lasting gov't
*response* to them - the GWOT, the vast expansion of the "security"
state, the cultivation of fear and dismantling of civil liberties -
is uncontested. I don't much care whether that was a matter of
taking advantage of an opportunity, or creating their own.<br>
<br>
In any case, some good friends of mine on this list do take the 9/11
truth issue seriously. It doesn't cost me much to spend a few
hours listening to people talk about it. <br>
<br>
A few years ago Wayne Johnson and some others organized a Liberty
Fest in southern IL, bringing together a bunch of
not-too-conventional people, many of whom might identify themselves
with the Tea Party if asked, but others as well, including some
Green Party candidates like Rich Whitney. I went to hear what they
had to say. Some people were appallingly off the wall (e.g. one
guy who claimed that no part of the US was short of water, that
environmental regulation was a liberal plot, etc.), with some I
could see common ground, some I liked a lot. I had good
conversations with people I wouldn't normally have tried to talk
with. That's how I see this conference. I'm looking forward to
it.<br>
<br>
Stuart<br>
<br>
<br>
(P.S. If anyone proposes disbelieving the significance of the
holocaust, I'll (a) be surprised that it'd be raised in a 9/11
conference and (b) incredulous but certainly (c) unconvinced. Fear
not.)<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/20/13 12:37 PM, James Fetzer
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CADMXGzbBG9TvKpozD2m-Bdzy9dqT5VTFEX1WRo6EGOkPWmxWZg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Ricky,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>How many of my books or articles have you bothered to read?</div>
<div>I am dumbfounded that so many here seem to think that they</div>
<div>can judge these issues WITHOUT BOTHERING TO STUDY</div>
<div>THEM. I am at a loss over the apparent lack of
rationality.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If you can show I have something wrong, THEN PROVE IT!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Jim</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>P.S. I thought your comments were at least
quasi-reasonable.</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Ricky
Baldwin <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:baldwinricky@yahoo.com" target="_blank">baldwinricky@yahoo.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman,new
york,times,serif">
<div><span>I haven't read Fetzer's book on the evolution
of intelligence, which does interesting, but if I
have read Chomsky's writings on the Kennedy
assassination and 9/11, as well as a decent amount
about Chomsky's linguistics, and I have to say I
think Fetzer mischaracterizes Chomky's
arguments badly. </span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>...although not as badly as
the offhand remark by Wayne below that Chomsky
supposedly seems to support 'big government.' And
you can't really talk about an idea unless you have
a fair representation of it.</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Just for a brief example, Chomsky argues that US
policy was fairly consistent on some major concerns
before, during, and after the Kennedy Administration.
Fetzer points to what Kennedy may have been going to
do. Think about the difference. Ultimately, of
course, I do not know what happened to Kennedy in 1963
for sure, but Chomsky makes a compelling case and not
just about the supposed effect on policy. I'm not
going through it all here. You can read it for
yourself. Fetzer's comment at the end of this "rabbit
hole" interview is a good one - he encourages people
to find out what's going on for themselves, as does
Chomsky. They also both encourage critical thinking,
which is needed in this thread.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Another important argument worth mentioning,
though, about some of this type of what are generally
known as 'conspiracy' theories - although Fetzer is
correct that the official story about who brought down
the Twin Towers is also a conspiracy, in fact - is the
number of people who would be needed to keep it quiet
and running smoothly. Andrew O Baoill mentions it
below.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The number of people who would have to be involved
in keeping quiet the alleged faking of the moonshots
is astronomical (no pun intended). But more
importantly, the number of people Fetzer describes as
keeping quiet about 9/11 is pretty incredible,
too. First would the planning and execution of such
an act - a hoax, mind you, on a scale that has never
before been attempted as far as we know (and much
smaller ones, like the Gulf of Tonkin and the weapons
factory/baby formula destroyed by US cruise missile
attack, have been found out). Such an undertaking
would require an extensive network of conspirators in
various part of the world just to get certain
individuals on the planes, create phone conversations
that could be intercepted, etc., hijack the planes and
make it through various levels of security, and either
load huge amounts of explosives and such into the
towers past security (or with their collaboration,
too?) or develope a theoretical version of
nanothermite which includes unknown stuff at the
atomic level or use an unknown material or keep all
kinds of super weapons quiet. Such a thing could be
just possible, but no good evidence of it exists, and
since it's a pretty big claim, we'd want some pretty
good evidence. There's an awful lot of speculation
here mixed in with the questions about the official
story.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Everything would have to come off pretty much
without a hitch, too, which defies experience with so
many previous schemes that it's hard to even see how
anyone could buy it. (The official story, by
contrast, does include the ordinary human error we
have come to expect. The third plane was diverted the
hijackers couldn't control the passengers, a couple
calls got out, fighters scrambled but didn't know
where to go, etc.)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Fetzer also claims in the "rabbit hole' interview
that any structural or mechanical engineer with any
training to speak of, or words to that effect, should
know that the official account can't be even remotely
correct - and that they are virtually ALL (thousands
of people) keeping quiet because they are afraid
they'll lose government contracts and the like. The
'truthers' are alway saying the official story is "not
possible." Well, so was flight, breaking the sound
barrier, and so on. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But
which story is more feasible, the official story that
a small conspiracy was able to crash three planes -
two into their intended targets - and destroy big
buildings and kill lots of people, or a much much
larger conspiracy was able to not only do all that as
well as fake such an event in plain view of the entire
world, with the addition of engineering whatever is
actually supposed to have brought the towers down?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Given how many spy operations have been exposed
recently - British spying on Belgian phones in the
news today, reporters hacking famous people's phones,
all the way back to Watergate and before - it seems
hard to believe that there wouldn't be a squealer or
just a little hard evidence of some of these things.
OK, that's just a really big pile of questions, not
proof that Fetzer's wrong. But for my 2c what he and
the 9/11 'truthers' are asking us to believe is a lot
bigger with a lot less evidence than the official
story. That leaves me, anticlimatically, with the
official story. We all saw it on TV. It sure looked
like what the officials tell us. I read and watch
Youtube to get what the 'truthers' say, and it just
isn't good enough.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Absent something better than what I've seen so far,
I'd have to include the 'truther' movement with the
'birther' movement that is severely under-convincing. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Ricky Baldwin</div>
<div>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>"Speak your mind, even if your voice shakes." -
Maggie Kuhn<br>
</div>
<br>
<div style="font-family:times new roman,new
york,times,serif;font-size:12pt">
<div style="font-family:times new roman,new
york,times,serif;font-size:12pt">
<div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial"> <b><span
style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b>
James Fetzer <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jfetzer@d.umn.edu"
target="_blank">jfetzer@d.umn.edu</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
E. Wayne Johnson 朱稳森 <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ewj@pigsqq.org" target="_blank">ewj@pigsqq.org</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b>
Stephen Francis <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a>>;
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:andrew@funferal.org"
target="_blank">andrew@funferal.org</a>" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:andrew@funferal.org"
target="_blank">andrew@funferal.org</a>>; "<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com"
target="_blank">sftalk@yahoogroups.com</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com"
target="_blank">sftalk@yahoogroups.com</a>>;
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
target="_blank">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
target="_blank">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>>;
David Gehrig <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org"
target="_blank">david-cu@nukulele.org</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
Thursday, September 19, 2013 11:37 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Peace-discuss] [sftalk] [OccupyCU] News
Gazette article on 9/11 Truth Conference, Sept.
22, Urbana Free Library<br>
</font> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="im">
<div dir="ltr">It actually very simple. I am
interested in evidence-based history.
<div>I resent the lies and the lying liars
who feed them to the public,</div>
<div>where they are aided and abetted by
many exactly like Gehrig.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse">
<div>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td
style="margin:0px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"
colspan="2">
<h3><a moz-do-not-send="true"
style="color:rgb(17,85,204)"
href="http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D2gFB4VjcmJw&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CBsQtwIwAA&sig2=Y3d6Ng9d6rzMZJhpTO7D3g&usg=AFQjCNGem6eKja7dt5Kg7fN7bpzhbDc48w"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank"><b>Fetzer
on Chomsky</b>:
Linguistics & 9/11 - <b>YouTube</b></a></h3>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td
style="margin:0px;padding:4px
8px 0pt
0pt;font-family:arial,sans-serif"
valign="top" width="1">
<div
style="width:116px;min-height:65px">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
style="color:rgb(17,85,204)"
href="http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D2gFB4VjcmJw&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CBwQuAIwAFAB&sig2=Y3d6Ng9d6rzMZJhpTO7D3g&usg=AFQjCNGem6eKja7dt5Kg7fN7bpzhbDc48w"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">
<div>
<img
moz-do-not-send="true"
alt="" width="116"
align="middle"
border="0"></div>
<div style="padding:1px
3px;text-align:right;color:rgb(255,255,255);font-size:11px;font-weight:bold;text-decoration:none;background-color:rgb(34,34,34)">►
7:15</div>
</a></div>
</td>
<td
style="margin:0px;padding-top:1px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"
valign="top"><cite>www.<b>youtube</b>.com/watch?v=2gFB4VjcmJw</cite><span><span><span>Aug
2, 2007</span> - <span>7
min</span> - <span>Uploaded
by Yoryevrah</span></span><br>
James H. <b>Fetzer</b>,
prof. of philosophy (U.of
Minnesota, Duluth, ret.),
critiques Noam <b>Chomsky's</b> <b>...</b></span></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td
style="margin:0px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"
colspan="2">
<h3><a moz-do-not-send="true"
style="color:rgb(17,85,204)"
href="http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DWKKDmuqMOaA&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CCAQtwIwAQ&sig2=ei2yazg-wnPPI_iUwo63kA&usg=AFQjCNFdupSrkUFN1s3Ft1sIY29AmgrGfA"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">Dr. Jim <b>Fetzer</b>/
Noam <b>Chomsky's</b> faulty
LINGUISTICS <b>...</b> - <b>YouTube</b></a></h3>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td
style="margin:0px;padding:4px
8px 0pt
0pt;font-family:arial,sans-serif"
valign="top" width="1">
<div
style="width:116px;min-height:65px">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
style="color:rgb(17,85,204)"
href="http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DWKKDmuqMOaA&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CCEQuAIwAVAB&sig2=ei2yazg-wnPPI_iUwo63kA&usg=AFQjCNFdupSrkUFN1s3Ft1sIY29AmgrGfA"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">
<div>
<img
moz-do-not-send="true"
alt="" width="116"
align="middle"
border="0"></div>
<div style="padding:1px
3px;text-align:right;color:rgb(255,255,255);font-size:11px;font-weight:bold;text-decoration:none;background-color:rgb(34,34,34)">►
27:21</div>
</a></div>
</td>
<td
style="margin:0px;padding-top:1px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"
valign="top"><cite>www.<b>youtube</b>.com/watch?v=WKKDmuqMOaA</cite><span><span><span>Apr
27, 2007</span> - <span>27
min</span> - <span>Uploaded
by paulagloria</span></span><br>
Noam <b>Chomsky</b> has let
down many truth activists
and given clear indication
of working with <b>...<br>
<br>
</b></span></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="im">On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at
10:44 PM, "E. Wayne Johnson 朱稳森" <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ewj@pigsqq.org"
rel="nofollow" target="_blank">ewj@pigsqq.org</a>></span>
wrote:
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<div>
<div class="im">
Mr. Gehrig, like his idol and mentor
Mr. ne' Heidler/Schickelgruber,
is a really nice guy actually,
just poorly understood as such.
It is not appropriate to generalize
from Gehrig
and make somebody else's Kampf our own
kampfire.
But-
The sinking of the Maine.
The Kennedy assassination(s).
The Gulf of Tonkin incident.
The murder of MLKJr.
The various nefarious acts of the CIA
The 9/11 questions.
etc., etc., etc.
Mother, should I trust the Government?
Chomsky et al seem to want better
Government.
Some of us think that no Government at
all would be better,
but it seems that Men are not ready
for that. People like Fetzer do serve
a useful function in the Society.
They throw out a net and get many
fishes, some good some bad.
It's not up to veebleFetzer to sort
them out. That's up to
you the reader.
Mr. Francis has seen the Government at
some of its worst,
up close, and personal-like.
It's reasonable for him to mistrust
it.
The mime of disease in the amerikan
society is something
like the persistent infection produced
by Pestiviruses. The host cant quite
get pissed off enough to get rid of
the infection, and the bug doesnt kill
the host. The host
gives birth to diseased and deformed
and weakened offspring
a percentage of which become
persistently infected and maintain
the infection through generations.
Somehow the amerikan society gains
various benefits from the memes
and clings to the them, even defends
the virus from threats.
<div>
<div>
On 09/20/13 10:52, Stephen Francis
wrote:
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div class="im">
<div><span>You've confirmed my
point by making light of
it...you have
no idea what those
experiences bring to a
person.</span></div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div style="font-size:12pt">
<div dir="ltr"> <font
face="Arial"> <b><span
style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> David Gehrig
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org</a><br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
Stephen Francis
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a>
<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com</a>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com</a>;
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:andrew@funferal.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mailto:andrew@funferal.org</a>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:andrew@funferal.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mailto:andrew@funferal.org</a>;
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>;
Jim Fetzer
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jfetzer@d.umn.edu" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mailto:jfetzer@d.umn.edu</a>
<br>
<div>
<div class="h5"> <b><span
style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Thursday,
September 19, 2013
7:07 PM<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [sftalk]
[OccupyCU] News
Gazette article on
9/11 Truth
Conference, Sept.
22,
Urbana Free Library<br>
</div>
</div>
</font> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div>What's
disgraceful,
Fetzer, is you. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>I'd like to
believe that at
some point Steve
will figure out
why. But as long
as you keep him
barking-mad up
the wrong tree,
I don't
expect it. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Also, by the
way, Dr O-boyo,
can I shoot at
you? That will
render all of
your opinions
correct,
apparently.
Cheaper than a
second
PhD!</div>
<div>
@%<</div>
<div>
On Sep 19, 2013,
at 8:52 PM,
Stephen Francis
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote: </div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div>
<div
class="h5">
<div
style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-size:12px">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>From
James Fetzer
Ph.D. </div>
It is
disgraceful to
see an
academician
abuse his
position to
curtail </div>
debate on the
most important
event of the
21st C. by
"installing </div>
filters". He
dismisses my
research
WITHOUT EVEN
STUDYING </div>
THE EVIDENCE.
I am quite
confident he
has not read
any of the
links that I
have provided
about 9/11 or
Sandy Hook or
the Boston
bombing, for
example. By
embracing the
moon landings
without </div>
considering
the arguments,
he is
embracing the
occurrence of
a
series of
events that
are neither
physically nor
aerodynamically
possible--very
much as THE
9/11
COMMISSION
REPORT was
based upon any
number of
additional
impossibilities.
This is the
easy way out:
avoid the
evidence and
the issues at
all cost since
they may show
that beliefs
he has
entertained
are
indefensible.
</div>
He does not
even
appreciate the
hypocrisy in
attacking me
without
bothering to
study any of
my arguments
on any of
these
questions.
I am
overwhelmed
with contempt
for the
contemptible
fashion in
which he
obviates the
standards of
reason and
rationality by
the
expedient of
cutting off
discussion and
debate and
adopting the
ostrich
policy. When
there is too
much heat, he
shuts down the
kitchen. The
man is a
perfect
example of an
intellectual
bully
and a coward
who abuses his
position to
give a false
impression
of principle,
when he is
demonstrating
that he
possesses
none.
And that is
manifest in
his
infatuation
with Noam
Chomsky,
where
he seems
oblivious of
his mentor's
gross
intellectual
deficiencies:
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-size:12px">
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<h3
style="margin:1em
0px;padding:0px"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
style="color:rgb(40,98,197);outline-width:0px;outline-style:none"
href="http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D2gFB4VjcmJw&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CBsQtwIwAA&sig2=Y3d6Ng9d6rzMZJhpTO7D3g&usg=AFQjCNGem6eKja7dt5Kg7fN7bpzhbDc48w"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank"><b>Fetzer
on Chomsky</b>:
Linguistics
& 9/11 - <b>YouTube</b></a></h3>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td
style="padding:4px
8px 0pt
0pt;border-spacing:2px"
valign="top"
width="1">
<div
style="width:116px;overflow:hidden;min-height:65px"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
style="color:rgb(40,98,197);outline-width:0px;outline-style:none"
href="http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D2gFB4VjcmJw&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CBwQuAIwAFAB&sig2=Y3d6Ng9d6rzMZJhpTO7D3g&usg=AFQjCNGem6eKja7dt5Kg7fN7bpzhbDc48w"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">
<div><img
moz-do-not-send="true"
style="border-width:0px" alt="" width="116" align="middle" border="0"></div>
<div
style="padding:1px
3px;text-align:right;color:rgb(255,255,255);font-size:11px;font-weight:bold;text-decoration:none;background-color:rgb(34,34,34)">►
7:15</div>
</a></div>
</td>
<td
style="padding-top:1px;border-spacing:2px"
valign="top"><cite>www.<b>youtube</b>.com/watch?v=2gFB4VjcmJw</cite><span><span><span>Aug
2, 2007</span> - <span>7
min</span> - <span>Uploaded
by Yoryevrah</span></span><br>
James H. <b>Fetzer</b>,
prof. of
philosophy
(U.of
Minnesota,
Duluth,
ret.),
critiques
Noam <b>Chomsky's</b> <b>...</b></span></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<table
style="padding:0px">
<tbody
style="width:641px">
<tr>
<td
style="border-spacing:2px"
colspan="2">
<h3
style="margin:1em
0px;padding:0px"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
style="color:rgb(40,98,197);outline-width:0px;outline-style:none"
href="http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DWKKDmuqMOaA&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CCAQtwIwAQ&sig2=ei2yazg-wnPPI_iUwo63kA&usg=AFQjCNFdupSrkUFN1s3Ft1sIY29AmgrGfA"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">Dr.
Jim <b>Fetzer</b>/
Noam <b>Chomsky's</b> faulty
LINGUISTICS <b>...</b> - <b>YouTube</b></a></h3>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td
style="padding:4px
8px 0pt
0pt;border-spacing:2px"
valign="top"
width="1">
<div
style="width:116px;overflow:hidden;min-height:65px"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
style="color:rgb(40,98,197);outline-width:0px;outline-style:none"
href="http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DWKKDmuqMOaA&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CCEQuAIwAVAB&sig2=ei2yazg-wnPPI_iUwo63kA&usg=AFQjCNFdupSrkUFN1s3Ft1sIY29AmgrGfA"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">
<div><img
moz-do-not-send="true"
style="border-width:0px" alt="" width="116" align="middle" border="0"></div>
<div
style="padding:1px
3px;text-align:right;color:rgb(255,255,255);font-size:11px;font-weight:bold;text-decoration:none;background-color:rgb(34,34,34)">►
27:21</div>
</a></div>
</td>
<td
style="padding-top:1px;border-spacing:2px"
valign="top"><cite>www.<b>youtube</b>.com/watch?v=WKKDmuqMOaA</cite><span><span><span>Apr
27, 2007</span> - <span>27
min</span> - <span>Uploaded
by paulagloria</span></span><br>
Noam <b>Chomsky</b> has
let down many
truth
activists and
given clear
indication of
working with <b>...<br>
<br>
</b></span></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-size:12px">
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-size:12px">Jim
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-size:12px">James
H.
Fetzer, Ph.D.
McKnight
Professor
Emeritus
University of
Minnesota
Duluth </div>
<div><span></span></div>
<div
style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-size:12px"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
style="color:rgb(40,98,197);outline-width:0px;outline-style:none"
href="http://www.d.umn.edu/%7Ejfetzer" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.d.umn.edu/~jfetzer</a></div>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div
style="font-size:12pt">
<div
class="im">
<div dir="ltr">
<font
face="Arial">
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b>
Stephen
Francis <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a>><br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
"<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">sftalk@yahoogroups.com</a>"
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">sftalk@yahoogroups.com</a>>
<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b>
"<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">david-cu@nukulele.org</a>"
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">david-cu@nukulele.org</a>>;
"<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>"
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>>;
Jim
Fetzer <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jfetzer@d.umn.edu" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">jfetzer@d.umn.edu</a>>
<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
Thursday,
September 19,
2013 5:34 PM<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re:
[sftalk]
[OccupyCU]
News Gazette
article on
9/11 Truth
Conference,
Sept. 22,
Urbana Free
Library<br>
</font> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><span> </span>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div
class="im">
<div><span>You
(Mr. </span><span
style="font-family:Arial;font-size:13px">Ó Baoill) speak so
eloquently in
your lofty
address to the
issues of the
day. You and
all
your fellow
Chomskyites
speak the same
language in
that your
really not
communicating
ideas but
rather
reinforcing
each others
Chomskyism. It
must feel good
and you are
all so proud
of yourselves
as you flitter
amongst prose
that glitters
in the eye.
You've
probably never
been
handcuffed and
thrown down on
the floor of a
cage inside a
dangerous
prison because
of your
glittery
flittery.
You've never
been shot at
with rifles
held by
moronic souls
who knew no
better than to
do what
their daddy
told em.
You've never
been hungry or
felt the mad
pounding
in your chest
as your
heartbeat
races knowing
that your next
word will
mean freedom
or jail.
You've never
seen the look
on a grown
man's face
looking into
the sentence
on a official
looking piece
of paper that
says Vietnam
is your next
home. You've
never heard
the screams of
nightmares of
groan men as
they fight
back the
demons of
heroin.
Please
continue with
your Chomsky
bedside manner
and keep your
eyes in
the clouds of
academic loft,
because we
know where the
comfort of
your
words come
from. </span></div>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div
style="font-size:12pt">
<div
class="im">
<div dir="ltr">
<font
face="Arial">
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b>
Dr Andrew Ó
Baoill <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:andrew@funferal.org" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">andrew@funferal.org</a>><br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">sftalk@yahoogroups.com</a>
<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">david-cu@nukulele.org</a>;
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>;
Jim Fetzer
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jfetzer@d.umn.edu" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">jfetzer@d.umn.edu</a>>
<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
Thursday,
September 19,
2013 4:14 PM<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re:
[sftalk]
[OccupyCU]
News Gazette
article on
9/11 Truth
Conference,
Sept. 22,
Urbana Free
Library<br>
</font> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><span> </span>
<div>
<div
class="im">
<div>I was
travelling, so
my response on
this is
delayed.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I've kept
out of Truther
threads for a
variety of
reasons, but
I feel
compelled to
interject, in
case silence
be taken as
implying
consent and
complicity. On
9/11
Trutherism,
I've largely
agreed with
Chomsky's
analysis -
that
the
implication of
a 'massive
conspiracy'
has too many
moving parts
to
pass Occam's
razor, and
that in any
event, it
distracts from
actually
useful
politics, as
it heads down
a rabbit hole.
(Incidentally,
I
understand
that there
will be
responses
claiming that
the the
Truthers
are agnostic
on the
question of a
central
conspiracy,
that it's a
grouping of
analyses, etc.
I'm not going
to try to get
into any of
that
because,
frankly, I
have neither
the time nor
interest.
Hence, my
silence until
now, like, I
suspect, many
if my comrades
on the list.)</div>
<div>
However, with
this latest
thread we move
into both
offensive and
ridiculous
territory.
Ridiculous
first: Stephen
says that
James 'Jim'
Fetzer
represents his
views on every
issue he can
think of.
Fetzer's
summary of his
own
beliefs
include a
claim that
Sandy Hook was
staged to
garner support
for gun
control.
That's
actually more
offensive than
ridiculous. I
trust the sane
members of
this list
don't need me
to elaborate.
On a
lighter note
Fetzer, bless
his soul,
clings to his
belief that
the moon
landings were
staged. That
one I did
laugh at. I'll
jump to my
main point:
I'm
implementing
filters to
block and
'send
to trash' all
future mail
from Mr.
Francis (and,
pre-emptively,
Mr.
Fetzer). It
saps my time,
energy, and
the value I
get from the
Socialist
Forum lists. I
suspect that
others have
done
similarly.
This
mail is not an
attempt or
offer to enter
into dialogue
with Francis
or
his like. The
method of
debate of
professed
generalized
conspiracy
theorists
fails several
of the basic
rules of
debate,
including the
building of
trust with
other
participants,
a desire to
reach
consensus
with those of
disparate
approaches,
and a rational
approach to
argument. I
feel it
important,
though, to
first go on
record, so Mr.
Francis and
his ilk not be
able read
silence as
acceptance.
Fetzer's
Holocaust
'revisionism'
is
anti-semitic
(and, more
broadly,
anti-humanist),
in that it
distracts from
central
questions
about the
totalizing
violence and
hatred that
drove the
'final
solution' with
evasive and
quibbling side
issues that
provide a nod
and a wink to
fellow
anti-semites,
while leaving
just enough
room for
deniability.
Fetzer is
gracious
enough to
acknowledge
'abuse' by the
Nazis, but
notably goes
no further -
and this is
his own
defense to a
critical
audience.
There are some
attempts to
muddy the
water, to
mimic actual
scholarship
that seeks to
add nuance and
critical
analysis to
narratives of
the period,
but to my
mind, after
viewing
Fetzer's own
summary of his
approach, the
distinction is
clear. In
addition, as
Belden
helpfully
noted, it is
possible (and,
I'd suggest,
important) to
distinguish
criticism of
Israel from
anti-semitism.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I know
there are
those on this
list whose
families have
directly
suffered in
the Holocaust.
My own son's
family lost
many
members - and
as genocides
are intended
to, those who
survived were
displaced and
lost any
connection to
the land that
had been their
home.
I cannot help
but wonder -
briefly, but
not enough to
desire a
response
from
Fetzer/Francis/etc.
- if these
'revisionists'
would apply a
similar logic
to the Irish
experience,
and seek to
erase the
violence
that we were
subjected to
through the
colonial
experience.</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="im">
<div><span
style="border-collapse:separate"><span
style="text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;white-space:normal;border-collapse:separate">
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>Andrew</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Dr.
Andrew Ó
Baoill <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:andrew@funferal.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">andrew@funferal.org</a></div>
</div>
</span></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="im">
<div>On 17
MFómh 2013, at
23:20, Stephen
Francis <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
</div>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div><span> </span>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div
class="im">
<div
style="font-size:10pt"><span>I'm
passing Jim's
response to
David Gehrig
on to the
group(s)...</span></div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><span>and
would
like to
reiterate my
enthusiastic
support for
James Fetzer.
I
have much to
learn from
him. He and I
are on the
same page
every issue
that I can
think of.</span></div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><span>I
again take
exception to
remarks like
the one below:</span></div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><span><span>"Steve
Francis, by
his selection
of Jim Fetzer
and Kevin
Barrett, has
made it clear
that he has
aligned
himself with
the
Jew-hating
wing of
trooferdom."</span><br>
</span></div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><span><span
style="font-size:16px">I
reiterate my
support for
the following
JEWISH
organizations.</span></span></div>
<div><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
style="color:rgb(0,51,102);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px;text-decoration:none"
href="http://www.nkusa.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">NKUSA</a><span
style="color:rgb(53,53,53);font-size:16px">, </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
style="color:rgb(0,51,102);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px;text-decoration:none"
href="http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/satmar.htm" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">JewsNotZionists</a><span
style="color:rgb(53,53,53);font-size:16px">, </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
style="color:rgb(0,51,102);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px;text-decoration:none"
href="http://www.inminds.co.uk/jews-against-zionism.html" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">JewsAgainstZion</a><span
style="color:rgb(53,53,53);font-size:16px">,
</span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
style="color:rgb(0,51,102);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px;text-decoration:none"
href="http://rense.com/general54/thank.htm" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">JewsAgainstZionism</a><span
style="color:rgb(53,53,53);font-size:16px">, </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
style="color:rgb(0,51,102);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px;text-decoration:none"
href="http://www.ijsn.net/home/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">International
Jewish
AntiZionist
Network</a><span
style="color:rgb(53,53,53);font-size:16px">, </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
style="color:rgb(0,51,102);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px;text-decoration:none"
href="https://www.facebook.com/pages/American-Jews-Solidarity-Against-Zionism/318506794911703"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">American
Jews
Solidarity
Against
Zionism</a><span
style="color:rgb(53,53,53);font-size:16px">, </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
style="color:rgb(0,51,102);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px;text-decoration:none"
href="http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=762" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Rabbis
Against
Zionism</a><span
style="color:rgb(53,53,53);font-size:16px">, </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
style="color:rgb(0,51,102);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px;text-decoration:none"
href="http://www.israelversusjudaism.org/" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">IsraelVersusJudaism</a><font
color="#353535">. These people created their organizations for a
specific
reason of
which they are
highly
dedicated. </font>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><span
style="color:rgb(53,53,53);font-size:16px"><span style="font-size:13px">See
Jim's response
below:</span><br>
</span></div>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div
style="font-size:12pt">
<div>
<div
class="h5">
<div dir="ltr">
<font
face="Arial">
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b>
James Fetzer
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jfetzer@d.umn.edu" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">jfetzer@d.umn.edu</a>><br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
Stephen
Francis <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a>> <br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
Tuesday,
September 17,
2013 7:34 PM<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re:
[OccupyCU]
News Gazette
article on
9/11 Truth
Conference,
Sept. 22,
Urbana Free
Library<br>
</font> </div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Steve,
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="h5">Kindly
post this as
my response to
the completely
unwarranted
claims made
by: </div>
</div>
<span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse">
<table
style="border-collapse:collapse"
cellpadding="0">
<tbody>
<tr
style="min-height:16px">
<td
style="text-align:left;font-family:arial,sans-serif;vertical-align:top;white-space:nowrap">
<table
style="border-collapse:collapse;table-layout:fixed"
cellpadding="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>
<div><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-weight:bold;vertical-align:top;white-space:nowrap"><br>
David Gehrig</span> <span
style="vertical-align:top"><font color="#555555"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">david-cu@nukulele.org</a>>
appears
to be the
epitome of
arrogance <br>
driven by
ignorance. I</font><font
color="#555555">n his completely gratuitous dismissal of my positions,
which <br>
<div>
<div
class="h5">
he supports
exclusively by
a very odd
quote taken </div>
</div>
</font><font
color="#555555">out
of context.
Does he not <br>
<div>
<div
class="h5">
know that the
figure
6,000,000 was
being bandied
about as early
as 1890</div>
</div>
</font> <font
color="#555555">and has <br>
<div>
<div
class="h5">
'a theological
or ideological
origin. It
has nothing to
do with the
history of
WWII, <br>
including of </div>
</div>
</font><font
color="#555555">course
the Holocaust,
which he may
not realized
would
not take place
<br>
<div>
<div
class="h5">
for another 40
or 50 years.
But spare me
more about the
Holocaust!<br>
<br>
I </div>
</div>
</font><font
color="#555555">have
spelled
out my
position on a
very wide
range of
complex and
controversial
<br>
subjects,
about which it
</font><font
color="#555555">appears
he knows
nothing at
all. If he
would like to
show <br>
<div>
<div
class="h5">
me wrong, THEN
SHOW ME WRONG.
Pick the
subject on </div>
</div>
</font>which
he
thinks I am <br>
<div>
<div
class="h5">
most likely to
be wrong.
Explain my
position and
why I hold
it, then
spell out what
<br>
he thinks I
have wrong and
why. I find
it completely
insulting
to everyone
whom he <br>
addresses that
he can make
pompous
pronouncements
with no
proof! <br>
<br>
<font
color="#555555">Here
is a thumbnail
sketch of my
positions on
issues
that have
arisen on the
thread: </font><br>
<font
color="#555555"> <br>
</font></div>
</div>
<span
style="color:rgb(53,53,53);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;white-space:normal;border-collapse:separate"><font>
<div>
<div
class="h5">9/11
was not
committed by
19
Islamic
terrorists who
hijacked four
commercial
airliners and
outfoxed
the most
sophisticated
air-defense
system in the
world;
<div>the
Wellstone
plane crash
was not an
accident,
as the NTSB
reported, but
was very
carefully
contrived for
the GOP to
take control
of the Senate
and launch
wars;</div>
<div>the
Holocaust has
been
exaggerated
for political
reasons,
including war
crimes by the
allies in the
form of
collective
punishment of
German cities,
which they
needed to
conceal;</div>
<div>JFK was
hit four
times--in the
throat from in
front, in the
back from
behind, and
twice in the
head (from
behind and
from the
right-front)--where
Lee Oswald
didn't do it;</div>
<div>the moon
landing was
easier to pull
off than
most realize,
as the film,
"Capricorn I",
releals, where
Stanly Kubrick
seems to have
faked the
landings for
the
government;</div>
<div>the
Boston bombing
was an obvious
fraud, where
the Craft
International
perps had been
outed by the
alternative
press
already the
evening of the
event itself;
and,</div>
<div>the Sandy
Hook event was
staged to
promote gun
control, which
fell short but
not for a lack
of trying. </div>
<div>Check
out <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="http://www.veteranstoday.com/author/fetzer/"
style="color:rgb(0,51,102);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;text-decoration:none"
href="http://www.veteranstoday.com/author/fetzer/" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">http://www.veteranstoday.com/author/fetzer/</a> for
my
and other's
articles about
them. </div>
<div>If anyone
thinks I am
wrong about
any of this,
just take a
look at the
evidence and
tell me what I
have wrong and
how
you know, so I
can take your
arguments into
account. </div>
<div>Most of
us don't have
the luxury or
the
background or
the ability to
take this on,
but I am a
professional
scholar who
has been
devoting
himself to
their study
since my
retirement.</div>
<div>I am not
happy with
what we have
found, but the
core of
rationality is
to adapt your
beliefs to the
available
relevant
evidence. For
an explanation
of how this
can be
done, consider</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>"Thinking
about
'Conspiracy
Theories':
9/11 and
JFK", which
provides an
introduction
to "inference
to the best
explanation"
in reasoning
about cases
like these at <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
style="color:rgb(0,51,102);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;text-decoration:none"
href="http://www.d.umn.edu/%7Ejfetzer/fetzerexpandedx.pdf"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">http://www.d.umn.edu/~jfetzer/fetzerexpandedx.pdf</a></div>
<div>
<div
class="h5">
<div>I have
benefited from
collaborating
with
authorities in
different
domains, such
as a world
authority on
the
human brain
and expert on
wound
ballistics, a
Ph.D. in
physics who is
also an M.D.
and board
certified in
radiation
oncology;</div>
<div>an M.D.
who was
present when
JFK was
brought
into Trauma
Room #1 and
two days later
was
responsible
for the
treatment of
his alleged
assassin in
Trauma Room
#2, a
legendary
photo
analyst and
another Ph.D.
in
electromagnetism.</div>
<div>In
relation to
9/11, I have
similarly
benefitted
from
collaboration
with
physicists,
pilots,
engineers
(structural,
mechanical,
aeronautical,
and chemical),
which has
enabled me to
sort
things out on
the basis of
experts in
areas where I
am not.</div>
<div>Since
David insists
that I have
"put my
reputation
through a wood
chipper", as
he so
cavalierly
puts it, let
him choose the
subject among
those I've
listed and
SHOW WHAT I
HAVE
WRONG. He can
pick the
subject and
explain what I
say about it
and
why, then
explain what I
have wrong and
how he knows.
I don't think
he
can prevail on
any of these
subjects and
if he cannot,
then we will
have proof
positive he is
the ignoramus
who has no
idea what he's
talking about,
which is
already
apparent to
me. So he can
take up my
challenge or
crawl back
into the hole
he came out
of. The world
will
know he's a
total fraud.</div>
<div>Jim</div>
</div>
</div>
</font></span></span></div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</span> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="h5">On
Tue, Sep 17,
2013 at
8:15 PM, David
Gehrig <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">david-cu@nukulele.org</a>></span>
wrote: </div>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<div>
<div
class="h5">
<div>I'm not
going to get
caught up in a
tedious cycle
of reply
to reply to
reply, mostly
because Jim
Fetzer has
already done
me the
favor of
putting his
reputation
here through
the wood
chipper, so
thoroughly in
fact that
there are
hardly any
large chunks
left that
need
addressing. So
here's my sole
reply to this
thread.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I long
ago decided
that there was
an upper limit
to the
politeness a
Holocaust
denier can
expect, so I
hope you don't
expect
that through
some sense of
faux
collegiality I
will pretend I
don't
notice how
Fetzer's
remarks reek
of eau
d'Naziboy.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>What is
Fetzer's
argument about
the number of
Holocaust
dead based on?
He points to a
website
article of the
form "What is
it
with the lying
Jews and their
fetish about
the number six
million?
They're
polluting the
minds of white
children."
Here's a
direct quote
from the
article Fetzer
found so
persuasive: </div>
<div> </div>
<div>"The
primary
function of
this insidious
global
propaganda
campaign is to
-- quite
simply --
brainwash
non-Jews into
a state of
abject fear
and paralysis
while we are
ideologically,
economically,
and
physically
enslaved by
the Jewish
tribe."</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Now,
remember,
that's an
article that
Fetzer not
only
doesn't find
racially
problematic,
not only finds
agreeable, not
only
doesn't set
off his racism
alarm, but
finds so
sunnily
agreeable to
his
worldview that
he actually
recommended it
to the rest of
this list as
an example of
the sort of
thing that
shapes his
thoughts on
the topic.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I've long
felt that 9/11
trooferdom,
while always
quite
stupid, was
not inherently
antisemitic.
It has its
Jew-haters,
sure,
but that
doesn't mean
everyone.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Steve
Francis, by
his selection
of Jim Fetzer
and Kevin
Barrett, has
made it clear
that he has
aligned
himself with
the
Jew-hating
wing of
trooferdom. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>The sad
part is, I
don't think
that Steve
Francis is
motivated by
antisemitism.
I just think
he's so
completely
credulous,
he doesn't do
the most
rudimentary
gut-check of
the
antisemitic
slop
people like
Fetzer feed
him.</div>
<div>
@%<</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="h5">
<div>
On Sep 17,
2013, at 3:29
PM, Stephen
Francis <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote: </div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div>
<div
class="h5">
<div><span>This
is James
Fetzer's
response to
David Gehrig's
post (below)</span></div>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div
style="font-size:12pt">
<div>
<div
class="h5">
<div dir="ltr">
-----
Forwarded
Message -----
<font
face="Arial">
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b>
James Fetzer
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jfetzer@d.umn.edu" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">jfetzer@d.umn.edu</a>><br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
Stephen
Francis <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a>> <br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
Tuesday,
September 17,
2013 12:49 PM<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re:
Fw: [OccupyCU]
News Gazette
article on
9/11 Truth
Conference,
Sept. 22,
Urbana Free
Library<br>
</font> </div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div
class="h5">
<div> </div>
<div>Someone
is willfully
misinterpreting,
but that ain't
me.
I am a
Holocaust
REVISIONIST,</div>
<div>because I
believe we
have inherited
a grossly
exaggerated
account of the
events that</div>
<div>are
alleged to
have taken
place at the
end of WWII.
The
number of
alleged
"victims" of</div>
<div>the
Holocaust,
6,000,000, for
example,
appears to be
a
number that
has
theological or</div>
<div>ideological
origins and is
not
historically
accurate.
See, for
example, a
study
discussing</div>
<div>the
origins of the
6,000,000 myth
at <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://zioncrimefactory.com/the-six-million-myth/" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">http://zioncrimefactory.com/the-six-million-myth/</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Moreover,
the Nuremberg
Tribunals
appear to have
presented a
biased case to
convey</div>
<div>the
impression
that the Nazis
were
responsible
for the
extensive
starvation of
inmates</div>
<div>at
internment
camps, when,
as Robert
Faurisson,
"Against
Hollywoodism, Revisionism", </div>
<div><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://robertfaurisson.blogspot.com/2012/02/against-hollywoodism-revisionism.html"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">http://robertfaurisson.blogspot.com/2012/02/against-hollywoodism-revisionism.html</a>
has</div>
<div>explained,
that was a
consequence of
Allied bombing
of
German cities,
which
interdicted</div>
<div>railroad
lines and made
it impossible
to resupply
the
camps, leading
to mass
starvation.</div>
<div>Ironically,
the Tribunals
found that
collective
punishment is
a war crime,
which the
Allies</div>
<div>appear to
have been keen
to cover-up by
attributing
the
starvation to
the Nazis
instead.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>There are
many other
reasons to
doubt the
"official
account" of
the Holocaust.
I do not</div>
<div>DENY that
Jews, gypsies
and the
mentally and
physically
infirm were
abused by
Nazis,</div>
<div>but the
nature of that
abuse appears
to have been
exaggerated
for political
purposes. It</div>
<div>is no
coincidence
that the
allegation of
being a
"Holocaust
denier" is
raised against
any</div>
<div>one who
is remotely
critical of
the actions or
policies
of the
government of
Israel, which</div>
<div>may
qualify as
"anti-Zionist"
but does not
qualify as
"anti-Semitic".
For more, I
have a</div>
<div>
half-dozen or
more
interviews on
"The Real
Deal"
discussing
Holocaust
mythology at</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://radiofetzer.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://radiofetzer.blogspot.com/</a>.
Anyone can go
there and do a
search on
"Holocaust".</div>
<div>
<div
class="h5">
<div> </div>
<div>I
published an
article about
this question,
"Is 9/11
research
'anti-Semitic'?"
in 2009. It</div>
<div>is offensive
that Zionist
organizations
and
individuals
continue to
attack all of
us who</div>
<div>are
trying to make
sense of the
evidence about
the
Holocaust and
to counter the
false</div>
<div>account
of history
that these
exaggerated
attacks
entail, which
play upon a
sense of</div>
<div>Western
guilt to
manipulate the
public to
promote the
political
agenda of
Israel. There</div>
<div>is more
that could be
said here, but
I would like
to
think this is
enough. I
have most</div>
<div>recently
laid out my
views on these
questions in
an
article in
Veterans Today
2013:</div>
<div><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/06/04/anti-anti-semitism-and-the-search-for-historical-truth/"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/06/04/anti-anti-semitism-and-the-search-for-historical-truth/</a>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="h5">
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><span
style="font-size:12pt">----- Forwarded Message -----</span> </div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div
style="font-size:12pt">
<div dir="ltr">
<font
face="Arial">
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b>
David Gehrig
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">david-cu@nukulele.org</a>><br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
Stephen
Francis <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a>> <br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b>
occupycu
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:occupyCU@lists.chambana.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">occupyCU@lists.chambana.net</a>>;
"<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>"
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>>;
sftalk
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">sftalk@yahoogroups.com</a>>
<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
Tuesday,
September 17,
2013 8:40 AM<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re:
[OccupyCU]
News Gazette
article on
9/11 Truth
Conference,
Sept. 22,
Urbana Free
Library<br>
</font> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Is that
the same Jim
Fetzer who
says the Nazis
only
killed 600,000
Jews in the
Holocaust,
based on his
willful
misinterpretation
of an ICRC
document? Why,
yes it is. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>You're
not doing a
very good job
disentangling
yourself from
the Holocaust
denial
movement, are
you. </div>
<div>
@%<</div>
<div>
On Sep 17,
2013, at 6:28
AM, Stephen
Francis <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">stephenf1113@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote: </div>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<h2
style="color:rgb(53,53,53);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif"><br>
</h2>
<h2
style="color:rgb(53,53,53);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:13px">
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td
valign="top">
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:16px;font-weight:normal"><span
style="font-size:13px">Hello all,</span></div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-weight:normal"><span
style="font-size:13px">The News Gazette has published an <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2013-09-16/sunday-conference-focus-911-attacks.html#comment-516074"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">article</a> (and
below) on The
Midwest 9/11
Truth
Conference
this Sunday at
the Urbana
Free Library,
in the
auditorium
from
1:30-4:45pm.
Again, the
speakers
are </span><span
style="font-size:13px">three highly knowledgeable
experts on
9/11 Truth
including
James Fetzer
Ph.D. (founder
of </span><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,127);font-size:16px"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
style="font-size:13px;outline-width:0px;outline-style:none"
href="http://911scholars.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Scholars
for 9/11 Truth</a><span
style="font-size:13px">)</span></span><span
style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-size:13px">,</span><span
style="font-size:13px"> Wayne Madsen (editor of </span><span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
style="color:rgb(0,0,127);font-size:13px;outline-width:0px;outline-style:none"
href="http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">WayneMadsenReport.com</a>,<span
style="color:rgb(0,0,127);font-size:16px"> </span><span
style="font-size:13px">Washington
D.C.</span><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,127);font-size:13px">)</span></span><span
style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-size:13px">
</span><span
style="font-size:13px">and
Kevin Barrett
(co-founder of
the</span><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,127);font-size:13px"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
style="color:rgb(0,0,127);font-size:13px;outline-width:0px;outline-style:none"
href="http://www.mujca.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Muslim
Jewish
Christian
Alliance for
9/11 Truth</a><span
style="font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,127)">). </span><span>The
conference
is hosted by <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/uc911truth/"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">UC
9/11 Truth
Urbana-Champaign</a>
and <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://newsfollowup.com/midwest_911_truth_conference_champaign-urbana_september_2013_newsfollowup.htm"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">NewsFollowUp.com</a> ...
see Facebook <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.facebook.com/events/394502717338293/"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">Event</a> </span></span><span> email: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:info@midwest911truth.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">info@midwest911truth.com</a></span></div>
<div
style="font-size:16px;font-weight:normal"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,127)"><span style="font-size:13px"><br>
</span></span></div>
<div
style="font-size:16px;font-weight:normal"><span><span
style="font-size:13px">
<div
style="background-color:transparent">The
world
has changed
dramatically
since 9/11.
Citizens of
the U.S. have
seen a
precipitous
erosion in
basic
Constitutional <span
style="background-color:transparent">rights since 9/11. This
usurpation of
rights has
been directly
tied to the
creation of
government
entities and
legislation, such
as the </span><span
style="background-color:transparent">Department of </span><span
style="background-color:transparent">Homeland
Security, the
Patriot
Act, the
Military
Commissions
Act, the NDAA
and revelation
of massive
surveillance
of the
American
people</span><span
style="background-color:transparent"> by NSA.</span></div>
<div
style="background-color:transparent"><span
style="background-color:transparent"><br>
</span></div>
<div
style="background-color:transparent"><span
style="background-color:transparent">The first component of the
conference
will be to
view the
widely
distributed
and acclaimed
documentary
film by the
Architects
& </span><span
style="background-color:transparent">Engineers for 9/11 Truth, '</span><span
style="font-style:italic;background-color:transparent">Explosive
Evidence:
Experts Speak
Out</span><span
style="background-color:transparent">'. Because </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
style="outline-width:0px;outline-style:none;background-color:transparent"
href="http://www.ae911truth.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">AE911Truth.org</a><span
style="background-color:transparent"> is a highly significant leader
in the 9/11 </span></div>
<div
style="background-color:transparent"><span
style="background-color:transparent">Truth movement, its influential
documentary
deserves
careful </span><span
style="background-color:transparent">scrutiny insofar its</span><span
style="background-color:transparent"> conclusions
are widely
regarded as
providing
crucial
evidence for
future legal
action</span>. </div>
<div
style="background-color:transparent"><span
style="background-color:transparent"><br>
</span></div>
</span></span></div>
</td>
<td
valign="top"><span><img
moz-do-not-send="true"><br>
</span></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</span></h2>
<div>
<table
style="color:rgb(53,53,53);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-weight:bold">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td
valign="top">
<div
style="font-size:16px;font-weight:normal"><span><span
style="font-size:13px"><span style="background-color:transparent">James
Fetzer, Ph.D.,
will assess
the A&E</span><span
style="background-color:transparent"> documentary and report the
latest
scientific
findings about
how it was
done, where
all sides
agree
that</span> the
Twin Towers
could not have
been brought
down by the
impact of
airliners and
resulting
fires.. His
analysis of
the science
of 9/11 will
be
complemented
by Wayne
Madsen's
analysis of
who was
responsible
and why. Kevin
Barrett will
moderate and
add his
perspective to
all of these
issues. <br>
<div
style="background-color:transparent"><span><span
style="background-color:transparent">We seek to </span><span
style="background-color:transparent">find
answers to
legitimate
questions
about 9/11</span><span
style="background-color:transparent"> and
to enable
credible
prosecutors to
bring the
perpetrators
for these acts
to </span></span></div>
<div
style="background-color:transparent"><span><span
style="background-color:transparent">justice. </span><span
style="background-color:transparent">There
is a vast
amount of
evidence
gathered to
support </span><span
style="background-color:transparent">this belief and has led to the
conclusion
that neo-cons
in the US were
aided by the
intelligence
services of
other
countries.
Supporters</span><span
style="background-color:transparent"> of the 9/11 Truth </span><span
style="background-color:transparent">movement,
including
local
members of UC
9/11 Truth
Urbana
Champaign, </span><span
style="background-color:transparent">demand a new independent and
international
investigation
of 9/11.</span></span></div>
<br>
We invite all
to attend. The
conference is
free and open
to the public.
Thank youSteve
Francis
<div
style="background-color:transparent"><span><span
style="background-color:transparent">UC 9/11 Truth Urbana-Champaign
email: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:info@midwest911truth.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">info@midwest911truth.com</a></span></span></div>
<br>
<br>
News Gazette
article:
<div
style="color:rgb(69,69,69);background-color:transparent"><span
style="background-color:transparent">
<h2
style="color:rgb(53,53,53)">Sunday
conference
to focus on
9/11 attacks</h2>
</span></div>
<div
style="color:rgb(69,69,69)"><span
style="background-color:transparent"><br>
</span></div>
</span></span></div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(53,53,53);font-size:16px"><span
style="color:rgb(119,119,119)">
<div><span>Mon,
09/16/2013 -
7:40pm</span> | <span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
style="color:rgb(0,51,102);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;text-decoration:none"
href="http://www.news-gazette.com/author/news-gazette" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">The
News-Gazette</a></span></div>
</span>
<div>
<div>URBANA —
A conference
planned this
weekend in
Urbana
will explore
issues
surrounding
the attacks on
Sept. 11,
2001.</div>
<div>The
Midwest 9/11
Truth
Conference
will be held
at
1:30 p.m.
Sunday in the
auditorium of
the Urbana
Free Library,
210 W.
Green St.</div>
<div>The event
is sponsored
by UC 9/11
Truth
Urbana-Champaign.
(<span
style="font-style:italic">see
Facebook</span>)</div>
<div>Admission
is free and
open to the
public.</div>
<div>People
who have been
studying the
events of
Sept. 11
will talk
about their
perspectives
on the
attacks.</div>
<div>"According
to national
and
international
polls,
nearly 30
percent of the
population is
skeptical of
the 'official'
version of the
events of
9/11," said
Steve Francis
of UC 9/11
Truth
Champaign-Urbana.
"The 9/11
Commission
Report is
viewed as a
cover-up
by a
significant
percentage of
citizens and
the 9/11 Truth
Movement
seeks to find
answers to
these
questions
about the real
cause of those
atrocities."</div>
<div>The
conference
will begin the
presentation
of a
documentary
film,
"Explosive
Evidence:
Experts Speak
Out."</div>
<div>James
Fetzer, the
founder of
Scholars for
9/11
Truth, will
comment on the
documentary
and report on
scientific
findings.</div>
<div>Wayne
Madsen, editor
of <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://waynemadsenreport.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">WayneMadsenReport.com</a>,
will provide
an analysis of
who may have
been
responsible
for the
attacks and
why.</div>
<div>Kevin
Barrett,
co-founder of
the
Muslim-Jewish-Christian
Alliance for
9/11 Truth,
will serve as
moderator and
will add his
perspective on
the issues.</div>
<div>For more
information on
the event,
call Fetzer at
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow">608-354-4280</a>.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
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<pre><fieldset></fieldset>
_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________Peace-discuss
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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