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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Gee,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I have no problems stating my opinions about any
subject or topic.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>This is a Peace Discuss list so I consider my
questions to be very appropriate.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>David Johnson</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rwhelbig@gmail.com href="mailto:rwhelbig@gmail.com">Roger Helbig</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=davidjohnson1451@comcast.net
href="mailto:davidjohnson1451@comcast.net">David Johnson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 23, 2013 4:21
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU]
News Gazette article on 9/11 TruthConference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free
Library</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>What the hell do your questions have to do with a) the 9/11 Truther
nonsense or b) Holocaust denial? You are being a bully and you ought to
have grown out of that stage of your Kindergarten experience. Grow up
and get some brains!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Roger</DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 4:41 PM, David Johnson <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:davidjohnson1451@comcast.net"
target=_blank>davidjohnson1451@comcast.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>Huh ?<BR><BR>What the fuck are you talking about
?<BR><BR>As usual, you are avoiding my questions by trying to change the
subject !<BR><BR>Answer my questions Mr. Gehrig !........<BR><BR>"So I will
ask you Mr. Gehrig, do you or do you not support the past
Bush<BR>administration and the current Obama administration's foreign policy
in<BR>regards to ; "<BR>1) The invasion of Afganistan<BR>2) The invasion of
Iraq<BR>3) Targeted Drone assinations of U.S. citizens<BR>4) the Patriot
Act, the Defense Authorization Act, and the Edward
Snowden<BR>affair<BR>???????????????<BR>Myself and others who have spoken
privately off-list would really like to<BR>know.<BR><BR>David
Johnson<BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- From: "David Gehrig" <<A
href="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org"
target=_blank>david-cu@nukulele.org</A>><BR>To: "Fields, A Belden" <<A
href="mailto:a-fields@illinois.edu"
target=_blank>a-fields@illinois.edu</A>><BR>Cc: "David Johnson" <<A
href="mailto:davidjohnson1451@comcast.net"
target=_blank>davidjohnson1451@comcast.net</A>><U></U>; <<A
href="mailto:peace-bounces@lists.chambana.net"
target=_blank>peace-bounces@lists.chambana.<U></U>net</A>>; <<A
href="mailto:sf-core@yahoogroups.com"
target=_blank>sf-core@yahoogroups.com</A>>; <<A
href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net"
target=_blank>occupycu@lists.chambana.net</A>><BR>Sent: Sunday, September
22, 2013 4:33 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [OccupyCU] [Peace-discuss] News Gazette
article on 9/11 TruthConference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free
Library<BR><BR><BR>Beldon gets it. Bigots like Fetzer have the right to
speak. But would you invite Henry Kissinger to speak to your group about
holiday photography? And if you did, and your inviting Kissinger got you
blowback, would a response, "but but but we're only talking about
photography, why do you keep bringing up Cambodia" really satisfy
anyone?<BR><BR>@%<<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>On Sep 20, 2013, at 6:03 PM, "Fields, A Belden" <<A
href="mailto:a-fields@illinois.edu"
target=_blank>a-fields@illinois.edu</A>>
wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR>David,<BR><BR>I hate to say it, but the questions
you pose to David at the end of your email are are off point and
insulting. This is very much like Carl's tactic--i.e., when you are
trying to make a point critical of something, then ask the person if they,
e.g., support a war or beating their wife. If Socialist Forum or any other
group to which I belong were ever to bring a racist who happened to
agree with me on a subject other than racism, I would quit that
organization in a flash. This is because I would have little faith
in the both the analytical capacity and the commitment to humanity
of such a person. While such a person certainly has the right to
speak , I, or a group to which I belong, would never
facilitate it. If this is what David Gehrig is questioning,
then I am right by his side on this.<BR><BR>I am a democratic
socialist, and it is my understanding that Socialist Forum is committed
to democratic socialism.<BR>I am certain that it would never
facilitate the the propaganda of national socialists (i.e., Nazis or
neo-Nazis), even if on certain points we might find ourselves in
agreement.<BR><BR>Disappointedly
yours,<BR><BR>Belden<BR><BR>______________________________<U></U>__________<BR>From:
David Johnson [<A href="mailto:davidjohnson1451@comcast.net"
target=_blank>davidjohnson1451@comcast.net</A>]<BR>Sent: Friday, September
20, 2013 4:14 PM<BR>To: Peace-discuss; <A
href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net"
target=_blank>occupycu@lists.chambana.net</A>; C. G. Estabrook<BR>Subject:
Re: [Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on 9/11
TruthConference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library<BR><BR>Good point
Carl,<BR><BR>BUT, the conference on Sunday is NOT about anti-semitism,
despite the<BR>efforts of David Gehrig to equate the two, it is about
questioning the "<BR>official " Bush administration story about the
9-11-2001 attacks.<BR><BR>Mr. Fetzer's views on other subjects are
irrelevant in regards to the 9-11<BR>conference.<BR><BR>Even IF Mr. Gehrig
is correct about Mr. Fetzer being " anti-semetic ", the<BR>subject of the
Holocaust and anti-semitism will NOT be the subject of
the<BR>conference.<BR><BR>But just to set the record straight, did you
notice how quick Mr. Gehrig was<BR>in trying to equate AWARE with
anti-semitism, just because there was a<BR>debate on the Peace Discuss
list ?<BR>And also, ever since I can remember Mr. Gehrig's postings to
Peace Discuss,<BR>NOT ONCE has he EVER posted an article or an opinion
against the neo-con /<BR>neo-liberal wars of corporate empire.<BR>Which
makes me question Mr. Gehrigs TRUE purpose and agenda for being on<BR>this
list.<BR><BR>So I will ask you Mr. Gehrig, do you or do you not support
the past Bush<BR>administration and the current Obama administration's
foreign policy in<BR>regards to ;<BR>1) The invasion of Afganistan<BR>2)
The invasion of Iraq<BR>3) Targeted Drone assinations of U.S.
citizens<BR>4) the Patriot Act, the Defense Authorization Act, and the
Edward Snowden<BR>affair<BR><BR>Myself and others who have spoken
privately off-list would really like to<BR>know.<BR><BR>David
Johnson<BR><BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "C. G.
Estabrook" <<A href="mailto:carl@newsfromneptune.com"
target=_blank>carl@newsfromneptune.com</A>><BR>To: "David Gehrig"
<<A href="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org"
target=_blank>david-cu@nukulele.org</A>><BR>Cc: "sftalk" <<A
href="mailto:sftalk@yahoogroups.com"
target=_blank>sftalk@yahoogroups.com</A>>; "Stephen Francis"<BR><<A
href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com"
target=_blank>stephenf1113@yahoo.com</A>>; <<A
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
target=_blank>peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<U></U>net</A>>; "Jim
Fetzer"<BR><<A href="mailto:jfetzer@d.umn.edu"
target=_blank>jfetzer@d.umn.edu</A>><BR>Sent: Friday, September 20,
2013 3:23 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] News Gazette
article on 9/11<BR>TruthConference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free
Library<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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class=gmail_quote>David-- Did you read my note? AWARE is against
racism. I set out some<BR>specifics.<BR><BR>You seem to suggest
anti-Semites should be prevented from "coming to<BR>town," or
speaking.<BR><BR>If you don't believe in free speech for people you
despise, you don't<BR>believe in it at all.<BR><BR>--CGE<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>On Sep 20, 2013, at 11:48 AM, David Gehrig <<A
href="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org"
target=_blank>david-cu@nukulele.org</A>> wrote:<BR><BR>Carl handily
demonstrates the problem. Fetzer is a flood of Holocaust<BR>denial, an
inherently antisemitic enterprise. Francis, while not<BR>motivated by
antisemitism, does not have any basic problem with passing<BR>along
the antisemitic crap from Fetzer, including the claim that
the<BR>Jewish dead of the Holocaust has been intentionally inflated by
a factor<BR>of ten.<BR><BR>Did Carl notice any of this? I mean, hey,
only a notably and nationally<BR>known antisemitic speaker -- and
Barrett is just as bad -- come to town,<BR>is all. Why on earth would
a self-proclaimed anti-racist organization<BR>have a problem with
antisemites coming to town?<BR><BR>Why would AWARE care that a
nationally known Holocaust denier is coming<BR>to town?<BR><BR>Well,
that depends. Which kinds of racism is AWARE actually
against?<BR><BR>"Nazi - schmatzi" AWARE sez, "we don't care, as long
as he's not a<BR>neo-liberal!"<BR><BR>@%<<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>On Sep 20, 2013, at 10:43 AM, "C. G.
Estabrook"<BR><<A href="mailto:carl@newsfromneptune.com"
target=_blank>carl@newsfromneptune.com</A>> wrote:<BR><BR>"...The
more interesting question at this point, of course, is this
...<BR>where does AWARE stand?"<BR><BR>Why does David consider that
"the more interesting question"? AWARE has<BR>not been involved in
the Gehrig/Francis contretemps, other than having<BR>its listserv
<peace-discuss> the locus of the debate.<BR><BR>There are
members and friends of AWARE who think that the 9/11
Truth<BR>Movement is on to something - indeed, that it is perhaps
the most<BR>important political question in the US
today.<BR><BR>There are others (I'm one) who think that Chomsky has
it right: "its<BR>major impact has been to draw off energy from
trying to do anything<BR>about the problems that have arisen" -
i.e., Obama's ongoing wars.<BR><BR>AWARE, the Anti-War Anti-Racism
Effort of C-U, was founded immediately<BR>after the attacks of
September 11, 2001, by residents of<BR>Champaign-Urbana and members
of the University of Illinois, who saw that<BR>the U.S. government
would use those crimes (whether or not it had guilty<BR>knowledge of
them) as an excuse to carry on and expand its decades-long<BR>wars
for the control of Middle East energy resources.<BR><BR>For a dozen
years now, members and friends of AWARE have worked
in<BR>Champaign-Urbana to end the killing by the Bush & Obama
administrations,<BR>by informing their fellow citizens of the real
nature of the "war on<BR>terrorism," in opposition to the largest
and most sophisticated<BR>propaganda campaign in history, conducted
by the US government, and<BR>directed at the American
people.<BR><BR>In fact, the US has been carrying on wars in the
Middle East for more<BR>than two generations, practically since the
end of the Second World War.<BR>(The reason is not far to seek: if
the principal product of the Mideast<BR>were asparagus, we wouldn't
have half the American military there.)<BR>AWARE is directed against
the ongoing (and expanding) wars for economic<BR>control by the
American 1%. (See the recently published "On Western<BR>Terrorism:
From Hiroshima to Drone Warfare," by Noam Chomsky and
Andre<BR>Vltchek.)<BR><BR>AWARE has from its beginning been
concerned about the racism bound up<BR>with those wars, viz.,<BR>(1)
the US government's use of anti-Arab (and anti-Muslim)
propaganda,<BR>even though a principal US client is the world's most
reactionary Muslim<BR>state, Saudi Arabia;<BR>(2) the US
government's support for an officially racist state, Israel,<BR>its
other principal client in the region, as a "stationary
aircraft<BR>carrier" in its Mideast crimes; and<BR>(3) the US
government's employment as soldiers and mercenaries of
poor<BR>African-Americans and Latina/os (although a recent study
suggests that,<BR>controlled for class [so to speak], the
exploitation of these<BR>communities is not
disproportionate).<BR><BR>It's also been argued within AWARE that
anti-racism (and identity<BR>politics in general) has been a
fall-back position of an American<BR>liberalism unable to counter
the vicious class war carried on by<BR>neoliberalism for more than a
generation - and to that extent it's a<BR>distraction from the
sources of the ongoing "Western terrorism." (For<BR>the opposite
view, see Dave Roediger's contribution to this list.)<BR><BR>The
efforts of AWARE and many similar groups across the country
have<BR>recently produced a victory for the only enemy the president
and the<BR>neoliberal parties fear - the US populace. Opposition
from the Left and<BR>Right (and from all races) is growing outside
the control of the<BR>Republicans and Democrats; it's stymied for
the moment Obama's expansion<BR>of the war.<BR><BR>--CGE<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>On Sep 18, 2013, at 8:47 AM, David Gehrig <<A
href="mailto:david-cu@nukulele.org"
target=_blank>david-cu@nukulele.org</A>><BR>wrote:<BR><BR>Steve,
your unwillingness to address Fetzer's now
well-established<BR>antisemitism does not magically negate that
antisemitism. Neither does<BR>it negate your personal moral
culpability for inviting a nationally<BR>known Holocaust denier to
come speak.<BR><BR>The more interesting question at this point, of
course, is this. Now<BR>that Fetzer's made it clear that he is
motivated by antisemitism, that<BR>he does pillage white power
sites looking for goodies to use against<BR>The Jew -- where does
AWARE stand?<BR><BR>Does AWARE oppose antisemitism this
blatant?<BR><BR>Do only some kinds of anti-racism result in AWARE
action?<BR><BR>Is AWARE anti-racist, or only anti-racist with an
asterisk?<BR><BR>Is AWARE's position "Nazi-schmatzi, who cares, as
long as he's not a<BR>neo-liberal"?<BR><BR>@%<<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>On Sep 18, 2013, at 8:23 AM, Stephen Francis
<<A href="mailto:stephenf1113@yahoo.com"
target=_blank>stephenf1113@yahoo.com</A>><BR>wrote:<BR><BR>Just
to remind everyone, The Midwest 9/11 Truth Conference is
about<BR>focusing on the evidence of the crime committed on 9/11
and not about<BR>defending ourselves from attacks of
anti-Semitism....and will be<BR>conducted as
such...<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>______________________________<U></U>_________________<BR>Peace-discuss
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
target=_blank>Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<U></U>net</A><BR><A
href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss"
target=_blank>https://lists.chambana.net/<U></U>mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>______________________________<U></U>_________________<BR>OccupyCU
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:OccupyCU@lists.chambana.net"
target=_blank>OccupyCU@lists.chambana.net</A><BR><A
href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/occupycu"
target=_blank>https://lists.chambana.net/<U></U>mailman/listinfo/occupycu</A>
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>______________________________<U></U>_________________<BR>Peace-discuss
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net"
target=_blank>Peace-discuss@lists.chambana.<U></U>net</A><BR><A
href="https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss"
target=_blank>https://lists.chambana.net/<U></U>mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>