<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Carl,</div><div><br></div><div>An interesting, even and informative, response… My thoughts:<div><br></div><div>It is more than possible that <b>some</b> of the objectors to Obama do have a racist agenda. It is not clear (to me) that Carol Ammons believes that <b>all</b> objections to Obamas reign are racist, as you seem to imply. Pertinent questions would be to ask what Carol thinks about Obama's health plans (as opposed to a universal medicare-like (or other single payer plan), whether she supported Obama's surge into Afghanistan, about his drone war on supposed terrorists (not to speak about American citizens), about his implied compromises(?) on social security, about his defense of the NSA, about his defense of the Patriot Act, about his not closing down Guantanamo, about his persecution of Snowden, Assange, Manning, about his continuing imperialistic actions (Cuba, Venezuela, …), about the military budget, etc., etc. Those are not Primary issues, but they are primary issues.</div><div><br></div><div>It seems to me that the differences David Johnson noted—how large a minimum wage ought to be, what the corporate tax rate ought to be— are not trivial in the context of this state primary, but are clues to the mental approaches the candidates really have. </div><div><br></div><div>My impression is that one candidate is the Democratic establishment candidate with money, one presumably backed by Madigan; the other is not. Significant?</div><div><br></div><div>Carl's last paragraph, first sentence, is less than convincing (to me), likely wrong speculation.</div><div><br></div><div>--mkb</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On Feb 11, 2014, at 9:01 AM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>Jenifer--<br><br>Contrary to your periphrastic imaginings, I’ve seen no indication that the Democratic candidates for the 103rd IL House seat differ on abortion: it’s not an issue in the primary. <br><br>The fact is that there are few if any issues in the campaign - and that’s the problem. A local political website wrote, “…it is important to remember that Rosenberg and Ammons are largely the same on the issues – something else that came out during last week’s debate." <br><br>David Johnson, an acute observer, found two "major differences" in their debate: the nature of corporate tax cuts, and the dollar amount of a minimum wage rise. I suggested these differences are minimal - if they exist at all.<br><br>I’ve mentioned my dismay at hearing Carol suggest that opposition to the policies of the Obama administration is racist: I think on the contrary that there are excellent reasons to oppose Obama. Her recent contretemps with the mayor of Champaign suggested that opposition to her is racist. Surely her supporters are not arguing that she should be elected because she’s African-American.<br><br>We are famously called upon to be “a nation where [candidates] will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character” - and it’s here that questions have been raised about her cutting corners in the advancement of her electoral career.<br><br>On her record and her position on the issues, I see little reason to think that she will vote as anything other than a reliable member of the pro-business Democratic majority in the Illinois House (as would her opponent) - a majority even less progressive than the governor. I’d rather vote for someone - a Green, say - who would oppose that anti-democratic majority: who would vote for paying the state bills by taxes on wealth, who would vote for a state single-payer system, etc. But Carol is part of a system that ensures that that is not being offered. <br><br>Regards, Carl<br><br><br>On Feb 11, 2014, at 2:22 AM, Jenifer Cartwright <<a href="mailto:jencart13@yahoo.com">jencart13@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">The principal objector's thinking about women's issues is well known, so regardless of the excuses he's come up with, I'm guessing the real reason is that Carol Ammons supports Planned Parenthood.<br></blockquote><br><br><br><blockquote type="cite">From: Brussel Morton K. <<a href="mailto:mkbrussel@comcast.net">mkbrussel@comcast.net</a>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">To: C. G. Estabrook <<a href="mailto:carl@newsfromneptune.com">carl@newsfromneptune.com</a>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Cc: "Barrett, James R" <<a href="mailto:jrbarret@uiuc.edu">jrbarret@uiuc.edu</a>>; Peace-discuss <<a href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net</a>>; sf-core <<a href="mailto:sf-core@yahoogroups.com">sf-core@yahoogroups.com</a>>; "<a href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net">occupycu@lists.chambana.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net">occupycu@lists.chambana.net</a>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Sent: Thursday, February 6, 2014 3:01 PM<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [sf-core] Re: [OccupyCU] AMMONS vs. ROSENBERG<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Debate Results<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I find it curious that you appear to be putting all " progressive, ostentatiously pro-labor viable Black candidate(s)" into the same bag (as M. Obama). What do you have against Carol Ammons (as against her opponents) aside from the fact that she has the same color as Obama (which could mislead us in our choice). <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">--mkb<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">On Feb 6, 2014, at 12:33 PM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">The national Democrats offered "a progressive, ostentatiously pro-labor viable Black candidate who is willing to speak in Terms of class inequality" for president, and his mendacity got us an administration of assassination and austerity. <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Doesn't that suggest that we should ask what "progressive, ostentatiously pro-labor viable Black candidate[s]" on the local level actually propose, rather than voting for them out of debased identity politics?<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">--CGE<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">On Feb 6, 2014, at 12:22 PM, Barrett, James R <<a href="mailto:jrbarret@uiuc.edu">jrbarret@uiuc.edu</a>> wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Very discouraging. I doubt anyone agrees with all of her<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">views, but we have a progressive, ostentatiously <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">pro-labor viable Black candidate who is willing to speak in <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Terms of class inequality and we're supposed<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">to invest our limited time into attacking her? That's sick.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Jim Barrett<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">________________________________________<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">From: <a href="mailto:sf-core@yahoogroups.com">sf-core@yahoogroups.com</a> [sf-core@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of C. G. Estabrook [carl@newsfromneptune.com]<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 9:39 AM<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">To: David Johnson<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Cc: sf-core; Peace-discuss; <a href="mailto:occupycu@lists.chambana.net">occupycu@lists.chambana.net</a><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Subject: Re: [sf-core] Re: [OccupyCU] AMMONS vs. ROSENBERG Debate Results [1 Attachment]<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">[Attachment(s) from C. G. Estabrook included below]<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">David--<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">As you know, "enterprise zones" are a neoliberal technique, originally proposed by 'supply-side' economists. Their current proponents acknowledge successful criticism by looking for newer, more marketable names - e.g., "technology zones."<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">It's not clear that states and municipalities should be competing to give breaks to corporate entities on the threat that they might move away and take jobs - or on the promise to bring them. See e.g., Durl Kruse' letter (attached) regarding the Champaign City Council's "Tax Increment Financing District" that will give Kraft "a $3.6 million tax subsidy to build a new warehouse."<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Durl writes, "One must wonder if this TIF project represents the flexing of corporate muscle by threatening the community 'not to build if not approved,' and when given the opportunity, to directly manipulate TIF laws for corporate gain at taxpayers' expense."<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Clearly, the supposed benefits of such a program should generalize. You can make an argument for "an across the board corporate tax cut" to promote trade and employment. Such business taxes should be replaced with taxes on concentrated wealth and speculation - i.e., taxes on investable assets, and Tobin taxes.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Given the entrenched (non-democratic) political power of capital, wealth taxes and Tobin taxes are not on the horizon in Illinois, unfortunately. (The Democrats should of course be opposed on this point.) The best we can do in the near future seems to be a progressive income tax and social subsidies, including perhaps the state single-payer system that you've been working for.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Regards, CGE<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">On Feb 5, 2014, at 10:21 PM, David Johnson <<a href="mailto:davidjohnson1451@comcast.net">davidjohnson1451@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">The differnce is that Rosenberg supports an across the board corporate tax cut with no conditions.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Carol Ammons " Technology Zone Program " gives a tax break to a company ONLY if a company ;<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">1) increases employment by the greater of 10 % of its current workforce or a minimum of 3 new full-time employees<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">2) Pays wages of 20 % or more above the median income of Champaign County<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">3) Employ a minimum of 5 full-time employees<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Not to mention that Rosenberg is an attorney who works for Carle Clinic and takes poor and elderly people to court for not paying hospital bills.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Carol has been a community activist for over a decade, opposing the : Police, States Attorney and other local officials / vested interests at times when necessary in the pursuit of social justice.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Again, the choice is clear to me who would be the better advocate for Working people in the 103rd District<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">David Johnson<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">----- Original Message -----<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">From: C. G. Estabrook<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">To: David Johnson<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Cc: <"Undisclosed-Recipient:;"@mail0.frost.chambana.net><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 9:29 PM<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Subject: Re: [OccupyCU] AMMONS vs. ROSENBERG Debate Results<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Didn't Carol support 'enterprise zones' (under another name), which are even more substantial corporate tax cats - for favored corporations?<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:24 PM, David Johnson <<a href="mailto:davidjohnson1451@comcast.net">davidjohnson1451@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I just returned from the Ammons vs. Rosenberg debate, for the Illinois 103rd State Rep Democratic Primary race.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">The major differences between the two candidates were ;<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Rosenberg SUPPORTS cutting corporate taxes and OPPOSES the $ 15.00 per hour minimum wage.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Carol Ammons in contrast OPPOSES cutting corporate taxes and SUPPORTS the $ 15.00 per hour minimum wage.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Rosenberg also stated that Carol Ammons experience in local government on the County Board and the Urbana City Council does NOT make her more qualified than him in terms of experience.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">He stated that ;<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">" Springfield is a different BEAST than local government and I am more qualified to deal with that."<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">The difference could not be any clearer to me.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">What was also interesting was that I submitted TWO questions for the candidates, first via e-mail several days before the debate and early on at the debate.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Neither question was asked !<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">The questions were ;<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">1) Would you be willing to co-sponsor the current House Bill to enact a universal health care system in Illinois ( H.B. 942 ).<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">and<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">2) Would you co-sponsor House Bill H.B. 3754 that would dissolve the Illinois Charter School Commision<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I wonder why the Moderators avoided asking these questions ?<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">David Johnson<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><br><br><br>------------------------------------<br><br>Yahoo Groups Links<br><br><*> To visit your group on the web, go to:<br> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sf-core/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sf-core/</a><br><br><*> 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