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<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>I agree 100 % Mort,</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>Seymour engages in some pretty incredible
intellectual contortion acts, to try and downplay and distract from the
fact of $ 5 BILLION dollars being sent to the opposition groups in the
Ukraine from the U.S. State Department.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>Not to mention the U.S. history and
techniques of destabalization campaigns since the late 1940's starting with
post-war Greece, then Iran 1953, Guatemala 1954, Chile 1973, etc., etc,. etc.,
the documentation is abundent.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>One only has to look at what is currently
happening in Venezuela and the PROVEN U.S. role there to see the
pattern.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>Seymour also tries to " split some mighty
fine hairs " in saying that there is some great difference between
U.S. neo-cons and U.S. neo-liberals. and the so called </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>" realpolitikers ". They are essentially
the same animal only with a different pattern of
spots.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>Seymour is one of many neo-liberals trying to
pretend he is a </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>" Leftist ", with the object of trying to
distract from the direct and YES, SUBSTANTIAL influence the U.S.
governments has had on events in the Ukraine.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>David Johnson</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=brussel@illinois.edu href="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu">Brussel,
Morton K</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=baldwinricky@yahoo.com
href="mailto:baldwinricky@yahoo.com">Ricky Baldwin</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net
href="mailto:peace-discuss@lists.chambana.net">peace discuss</A> ; <A
title=sf-core@yahoogroups.com href="mailto:sf-core@yahoogroups.com">socialist
core</A> ; <A title=occupyCU@lists.chambana.net
href="mailto:occupyCU@lists.chambana.net">occupycu</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 06, 2014 6:11
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [sf-core] oversimplifying
Ukraine does not serve the people</DIV>
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<P>Seymour seems to (want to) equate Russian foreign policy with that of the
U.S., Russian imperialism (today?) to that of the U.S. (and its partners).
Consider his quote: <SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 15px"
class=Apple-style-span><I>there is more than one imperialism operating in
Ukraine</I></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 15px"
class=Apple-style-span>.</SPAN>
<DIV><FONT class=Apple-style-span
face="HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 15px" class=Apple-style-span><BR></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV>So which nation is a graver threat to world
peace/equilibrium? </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Consider what has happened to Iraq, Afghanistan, Central America,
Yugoslavia, …, military bases spread around the world (and ringing Russia), to
what the Russians are responsible for (Chechnya?, Ukraine). Consider
military budgets?
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I find Seymour complaisant, apologetic, to western (U.S.) propaganda
regarding that evil, corrupt, Russia and its intentions. I believe his current
bete noir, Lindsay German, is closer to reality then his dense and labored
ratiocinations. </DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>Incidentally, does he consider what happened in Kiev a coup? Is it a
existential threat to Russia? </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>--mkb</DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Mar 6, 2014, at 10:37 AM, Ricky Baldwin wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff"><SPAN> </SPAN>
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<DIV>The following article, IMHO, makes some excellent points. Still
doesn't take a clear position on the Ukraine, unfortunately, but it seems to
be a pretty no-nonsense account of pitfalls to avoid. -Ricky
B.<BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><A
href="http://links.org.au/node/3749">http://links.org.au/node/3749</A></DIV>
<H1>Against infantile realpolitik: Richard Seymour on some left reactions to
Ukraine</H1>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">By <B>Richard Seymour</B></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">March 5, 2014 -- <A
href="http://www.leninology.com/2014/03/ukraine-against-infantile-realpolitik.html"
target=_blank><I>Lenin's Tomb</I></A>, posted at <A
href="http://links.org.au/node/3749" target=_blank><I>Links International
Journal of Socialist Renewal</I></A> with the author's permission -- The
enemy of your enemy might still be your enemy. Because, complexity. Because,
nuance. Because, concrete analysis of concrete situations. How much do I
really need to underline this?</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I raise the point because the tendency to try
to distil the situation in Ukraine into one or at most two relatively simple
contradictions is apparent in abundance. Lindsey German's <A
href="http://stopwar.org.uk/news/ten-things-to-remember-about-the-crisis-in-ukraine-and-the-crimea#.UxQxQty6UYV"
target=_blank>article</A> for Stop the War Coalition (UK) is a classic
instance of this. It attempts a "clarification" of the political stakes,
largely by way of clearing away complicating clutter and allowing people to
see the interests of US imperialism and its allies at work. But in so doing,
German's article resorts to utter nonsense and embarrassingly crude
reductions.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">For example, the article reduces the "colour
revolutions" to simple acts of US orchestrated client-installation. This is
crass. That the US has intervened in, and attempted to shape the outcome of
these revolts is hardly in question. That in some of these revolts, they
have played a far more significant role than in others is also not in
question. That in Ukraine, this took the form of funding a series of
lobbies, think-tanks and "civil society" groups, is also
uncontroversial.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">However, one would think that socialists, and
particularly Marxists, would have more interest in: why masses begin to
move; why they respond to particular slogans; why they assemble around
particular political leaderships and organisations; and why certain
influential layers are able to take <I>command</I> of a situation they
neither <I>created</I> nor <I>control</I>. One would expect, surely, some
attempt to work out why anyone thought to form "people's councils" and
"self-defence forces" in such a situation; why a parallel government was
formed in Kiev; why the symbolic targets of popular rage should be a statue
of Lenin; why the popular demands should include for a time integration into
the EU; and so on. (<A
href="http://roarmag.org/2014/02/euromaidan-protests-ukraine-contradictions/">This</A>
is a rather good interview on that subject.) Lindsey German evinces no such
interest.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Indeed, while German gestures toward the
complexity of the situation, the effect of what she actually says
("historical divisions ... complex and difficult to overcome ... highly
contested" etc) is to evoke that complexity <I>as a barrier to
understanding</I>. It is so summary, so glancing, that she may as well have
said, " it is, after all, a country far away, of which we know little ...".
It is not analysis, and it is not internationalism. </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">And if imperialism is really the only factor
that deserves analysis, then the power of Russia and Russian-allied
oligarchs in the east to help put Yanukovich in power in the first place,
and its considerable economic leverage over that government, ought not to be
ignored. Masked Russian troops occupying the Crimea, likewise. Because, and
of course this also applies to Syria in ways that German's article obscures,
<I>there is more than one imperialism operating in Ukraine</I>.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">A logical corollary of the above error,
however, is to then reduce the overthrow of Yanukovich to something which
the US "oversaw". If all that matters is the analysis of US imperialism in
the situation, then the key in this situation is to work out the ways in
which the US has power over the situation. Yet there is simply no evidence
that the US has had a very significant role, let alone the executive,
overseeing role, in deciding the outcome of these struggles. </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">As Volodymyr Ischenko <A
href="http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/28/ukraine-genuine-revolution-tackle-corruption"
target=_blank>writes</A>, what we have seen is a genuine mass uprising,
"overwhelmingly supported in western and central Ukraine without majority
support in the eastern and southern regions, leading to a change of
political elites". This change of political elites has led to a right-wing
government, fusing neoliberals and nationalists who have no interest in
fulfilling any of the class demands of the popular layers of the rebellion.
This could and most likely would have happened without the US government
lifting a finger.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Perhaps as serious an analytical error as the
above, though, is to reduce US imperialist strategy to the manoeuvrings of
"neo-cons" who, supposedly, are desperate "for war with the Russians". This
is simply vulgar populist drivel on German's part. The neo-conservatives are
hardly the currently dominant force within the US government. The dominant
foreign policy elites in the Pentagon and State Department are a mixture of
realpolitikers and liberal imperialists. Robert Gates and John Kerry are the
leading personnel here, and only by the most tortuous logic does either of
these two qualify as a neo-conservative. This sort of polemical focus on
"neo-cons" doesn't simply evade the question of Russian dominance in
Ukraine, but actually <I>shifts the focus away from any analysis of US
imperialism</I>. It is <I>soft on imperialism</I>.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">A subordinate aspect of this
over-simplification of imperialist motives in the region, incidentally, is
that the relationship representation of Ukraine's fascists as
uncomplicatedly "allies" of the European Union (EU). The major fascist
organisation to have gained in these protests, the Svoboda Party, is far
from simply pro-EU. It has pro-European to the extent that it is white
supremacist, and linked to a series of European fascist parties which are
bitter opponents of the EU, and <A
href="http://searchlightmagazine.com/archive/the-old-and-new-european-friends-of-ukraine%E2%80%99s-far-right-svoboda-party"
target=_blank>is itself quite explicitly hostile to the EU</A>. The
geopolitics of the situation are such that a protest against Russian
domination initially took the form of a pro-EU protest (remarkable as that
is), but the fascists were always a minority current in it, are a minority
in the new government (reactionary though it is), and are most likely
<I>not</I> the allies and instruments of the EU agenda in the country.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The key reduction, though, which lies behind
everything else, is to limit the analytical and political imperatives to the
British left to those of identifying and combating imperialism on the part
of the US and its allies. One would think that socialists had never
protested the Soviet invasions of Hungary or Czechoslovakia. The rationale
for this reduction is bizarre. Lindsey German says that those who want to
oppose Russian imperialism in Ukraine and Crimea are "ignoring the history
and present reality" of the region. She does not say how, but goes on
instead to offer this non-sequitur:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I>The B52 liberals only oppose wars when
their own rulers do so, and support the ones carried out by our
governments. The job of any anti-war movement is to oppose its own
government's role in these wars, and to explain what that government and
its allies are up to.</I></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The "job" of an anti-war movement, on this
account, is thus to precisely mirror the attitude of the B52 liberals. This
goes much further than the old saw that "the main enemy is at home", which
obviously would not preclude international solidarity. Ruling out analysis
of and opposition to Russian imperialism in this context simply doesn't
follow. Perhaps it is a version of the tactic known as "bending the stick",
or exaggerating a point in order to counteract entrenched ideas. If this is
the case, then it is a particularly debased form of realpolitik, relying as
it does upon an extremely cynical view of people as essentially manipulable
objects of an elite political strategy. After all, what happens when the
situation changes, the imperative changes, and you must suddenly start
exaggerating in the other direction? Will people simply accept it,
credulously, and forget about how much this new exaggeration jars with
previous exaggerations? You see, even as realpolitik, it doesn't work. If
everything you say is a predictable exaggeration, then people stop listening
to you; you stop being effective.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Presumably, however, there is a theoretical
edifice sustaining all this. Lindsey German is, apparently, a Marxist and
not some simple-minded libertarian, nor a bombastic <I>Russia Today</I>
analyst. But since the theory is impossible to infer from German's polemic,
it unfortunately comes across as facile opportunism, and any theory that
does now emerge to bolster it -- even should it direct us to seize the 'key
link in the chain' -- will tend to look like a <I>post hoc</I>
rationalisation.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">This is a serious problem, precisely to the
extent that US imperialism continues to be the dominant global force that
German says it is. There will be further wars, further interventions. But
Stop the War, which is at present still the only significant antiwar
organisation in the country, is beginning to make a habit of fucking up. Its
decision to invite 'Mother Agnes' to its conference, withdrawn under
pressure, <A
href="http://stopwar.org.uk/statements/stop-the-war-statement-mother-agnes-and-the-international-anti-war-conference-on-30-november-2013"
target=_blank>gracelessly and without a serious political explanation</A>,
was one example of such. It resulted in a politically disastrous picket of
the same conference by Syrian opposition supporters. Now, Lindsey German has
publicly aligned Stop the War with a position that is analytically vacuous,
politically derelict, and soft on imperialism. And to expend so much
political capital on that, quite unnecessarily, when Russian military
intervention is a far more pressing reality than any potential US military
intervention... well, that isn't smart realpolitik either.</DIV></DIV>
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