<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>I thought the point of his piece was precisely that we should avoid simple rankings or short hands for analysis that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." In this case it may be that "a pox on all their houses" is a better supposition. Certainly, in the case of the Ukraine, the Russians are the ones with troops on the ground and active explicit threats against the current Ukrainian government. I don't think that we must wait until the Russian sins equal those of the US before we deign to criticize their aggression, as Mort's comparison seems to imply.</div><div><br></div><div>Again, though, I haven't studied the situation enough to yet make measured judgements on each action. However, "this is complicated, and there may be several bad actors who share blame in different ways" strikes me as a good working hypothesis.</div><div><div><br></div>Andrew<div>--<div>Dr. Andrew Ó Baoill</div><div><a href="mailto:andrew@obaoill.net">andrew@obaoill.net</a></div></div></div><div><br>On 6 Márta 2014, at 19:11, "Brussel, Morton K" <<a href="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu">brussel@illinois.edu</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<span style="display:none"> </span>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;">
<div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-text">
<p>
Seymour seems to (want to) equate Russian foreign policy with that of the U.S., Russian imperialism (today?) to that of the U.S. (and its partners). Consider his quote: <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size: 15px;"><i>there
is more than one imperialism operating in Ukraine</i></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size: 15px;">.</span>
</p><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 15px;"><br>
</span></font>
<div>So which nation is a graver threat to world peace/equilibrium? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Consider what has happened to Iraq, Afghanistan, Central America, Yugoslavia, …, military bases spread around the world (and ringing Russia), to what the Russians are responsible for (Chechnya?, Ukraine). Consider military budgets?
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I find Seymour complaisant, apologetic, to western (U.S.) propaganda regarding that evil, corrupt, Russia and its intentions. I believe his current bete noir, Lindsay German, is closer to reality then his dense and labored ratiocinations. </div>
<div><br>
<div>Incidentally, does he consider what happened in Kiev a coup? Is it a existential threat to Russia? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--mkb</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Mar 6, 2014, at 10:37 AM, Ricky Baldwin wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="background-color: #fff;"><span> </span>
<div id="ygrp-text">
<div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size: 12pt;">
<div>The following article, IMHO, makes some excellent points. Still doesn't take a clear position on the Ukraine, unfortunately, but it seems to be a pretty no-nonsense account of pitfalls to avoid. -Ricky B.<br>
</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size: 16px;font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;background-color: transparent;font-style: normal;">
<br>
</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size: 16px;font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;background-color: transparent;font-style: normal;">
<a href="http://links.org.au/node/3749">http://links.org.au/node/3749</a></div>
<h1>Against infantile realpolitik: Richard Seymour on some left reactions to Ukraine</h1>
<div style="font-size: 11pt;">By <b>Richard Seymour</b></div>
<div style="font-size: 11pt;">March 5, 2014 -- <a href="http://www.leninology.com/2014/03/ukraine-against-infantile-realpolitik.html" target="_blank">
<i>Lenin's Tomb</i></a>, posted at <a href="http://links.org.au/node/3749" target="_blank">
<i>Links International Journal of Socialist Renewal</i></a> with the author's permission -- The enemy of your enemy might still be your enemy. Because, complexity. Because, nuance. Because, concrete analysis of concrete situations. How much do I really need
to underline this?</div>
<div style="font-size: 11pt;">I raise the point because the tendency to try to distil the situation in Ukraine into one or at most two relatively simple contradictions is apparent in abundance. Lindsey German's
<a href="http://stopwar.org.uk/news/ten-things-to-remember-about-the-crisis-in-ukraine-and-the-crimea#.UxQxQty6UYV" target="_blank">
article</a> for Stop the War Coalition (UK) is a classic instance of this. It attempts a "clarification" of the political stakes, largely by way of clearing away complicating clutter and allowing people to see the interests of US imperialism and its allies
at work. But in so doing, German's article resorts to utter nonsense and embarrassingly crude reductions.</div>
<div style="font-size: 11pt;">For example, the article reduces the "colour revolutions" to simple acts of US orchestrated client-installation. This is crass. That the US has intervened in, and attempted to shape the outcome of these revolts is hardly in question.
That in some of these revolts, they have played a far more significant role than in others is also not in question. That in Ukraine, this took the form of funding a series of lobbies, think-tanks and "civil society" groups, is also uncontroversial.</div>
<div style="font-size: 11pt;">However, one would think that socialists, and particularly Marxists, would have more interest in: why masses begin to move; why they respond to particular slogans; why they assemble around particular political leaderships and organisations;
and why certain influential layers are able to take <i>command</i> of a situation they neither
<i>created</i> nor <i>control</i>. One would expect, surely, some attempt to work out why anyone thought to form "people's councils" and "self-defence forces" in such a situation; why a parallel government was formed in Kiev; why the symbolic targets of popular
rage should be a statue of Lenin; why the popular demands should include for a time integration into the EU; and so on. (<a href="http://roarmag.org/2014/02/euromaidan-protests-ukraine-contradictions/">This</a> is a rather good interview on that subject.)
Lindsey German evinces no such interest.</div>
<div style="font-size: 11pt;">Indeed, while German gestures toward the complexity of the situation, the effect of what she actually says ("historical divisions ... complex and difficult to overcome ... highly contested" etc) is to evoke that complexity
<i>as a barrier to understanding</i>. It is so summary, so glancing, that she may as well have said, " it is, after all, a country far away, of which we know little ...". It is not analysis, and it is not internationalism.
</div>
<div style="font-size: 11pt;">And if imperialism is really the only factor that deserves analysis, then the power of Russia and Russian-allied oligarchs in the east to help put Yanukovich in power in the first place, and its considerable economic leverage over
that government, ought not to be ignored. Masked Russian troops occupying the Crimea, likewise. Because, and of course this also applies to Syria in ways that German's article obscures,
<i>there is more than one imperialism operating in Ukraine</i>.</div>
<div style="font-size: 11pt;">A logical corollary of the above error, however, is to then reduce the overthrow of Yanukovich to something which the US "oversaw". If all that matters is the analysis of US imperialism in the situation, then the key in this situation
is to work out the ways in which the US has power over the situation. Yet there is simply no evidence that the US has had a very significant role, let alone the executive, overseeing role, in deciding the outcome of these struggles.
</div>
<div style="font-size: 11pt;">As Volodymyr Ischenko <a href="http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/28/ukraine-genuine-revolution-tackle-corruption" target="_blank">
writes</a>, what we have seen is a genuine mass uprising, "overwhelmingly supported in western and central Ukraine without majority support in the eastern and southern regions, leading to a change of political elites". This change of political elites has led
to a right-wing government, fusing neoliberals and nationalists who have no interest in fulfilling any of the class demands of the popular layers of the rebellion. This could and most likely would have happened without the US government lifting a finger.</div>
<div style="font-size: 11pt;">Perhaps as serious an analytical error as the above, though, is to reduce US imperialist strategy to the manoeuvrings of "neo-cons" who, supposedly, are desperate "for war with the Russians". This is simply vulgar populist drivel
on German's part. The neo-conservatives are hardly the currently dominant force within the US government. The dominant foreign policy elites in the Pentagon and State Department are a mixture of realpolitikers and liberal imperialists. Robert Gates and John
Kerry are the leading personnel here, and only by the most tortuous logic does either of these two qualify as a neo-conservative. This sort of polemical focus on "neo-cons" doesn't simply evade the question of Russian dominance in Ukraine, but actually
<i>shifts the focus away from any analysis of US imperialism</i>. It is <i>soft on imperialism</i>.</div>
<div style="font-size: 11pt;">A subordinate aspect of this over-simplification of imperialist motives in the region, incidentally, is that the relationship representation of Ukraine's fascists as uncomplicatedly "allies" of the European Union (EU). The major
fascist organisation to have gained in these protests, the Svoboda Party, is far from simply pro-EU. It has pro-European to the extent that it is white supremacist, and linked to a series of European fascist parties which are bitter opponents of the EU, and
<a href="http://searchlightmagazine.com/archive/the-old-and-new-european-friends-of-ukraine%E2%80%99s-far-right-svoboda-party" target="_blank">
is itself quite explicitly hostile to the EU</a>. The geopolitics of the situation are such that a protest against Russian domination initially took the form of a pro-EU protest (remarkable as that is), but the fascists were always a minority current in it,
are a minority in the new government (reactionary though it is), and are most likely
<i>not</i> the allies and instruments of the EU agenda in the country.</div>
<div style="font-size: 11pt;">The key reduction, though, which lies behind everything else, is to limit the analytical and political imperatives to the British left to those of identifying and combating imperialism on the part of the US and its allies. One
would think that socialists had never protested the Soviet invasions of Hungary or Czechoslovakia. The rationale for this reduction is bizarre. Lindsey German says that those who want to oppose Russian imperialism in Ukraine and Crimea are "ignoring the history
and present reality" of the region. She does not say how, but goes on instead to offer this non-sequitur:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style="font-size: 11pt;"><i>The B52 liberals only oppose wars when their own rulers do so, and support the ones carried out by our governments. The job of any anti-war movement is to oppose its own government's role in these wars, and to explain what that
government and its allies are up to.</i></div>
</blockquote>
<div style="font-size: 11pt;">The "job" of an anti-war movement, on this account, is thus to precisely mirror the attitude of the B52 liberals. This goes much further than the old saw that "the main enemy is at home", which obviously would not preclude international
solidarity. Ruling out analysis of and opposition to Russian imperialism in this context simply doesn't follow. Perhaps it is a version of the tactic known as "bending the stick", or exaggerating a point in order to counteract entrenched ideas. If this is
the case, then it is a particularly debased form of realpolitik, relying as it does upon an extremely cynical view of people as essentially manipulable objects of an elite political strategy. After all, what happens when the situation changes, the imperative
changes, and you must suddenly start exaggerating in the other direction? Will people simply accept it, credulously, and forget about how much this new exaggeration jars with previous exaggerations? You see, even as realpolitik, it doesn't work. If everything
you say is a predictable exaggeration, then people stop listening to you; you stop being effective.</div>
<div style="font-size: 11pt;">Presumably, however, there is a theoretical edifice sustaining all this. Lindsey German is, apparently, a Marxist and not some simple-minded libertarian, nor a bombastic
<i>Russia Today</i> analyst. But since the theory is impossible to infer from German's polemic, it unfortunately comes across as facile opportunism, and any theory that does now emerge to bolster it -- even should it direct us to seize the 'key link in the
chain' -- will tend to look like a <i>post hoc</i> rationalisation.</div>
<div style="font-size: 11pt;">This is a serious problem, precisely to the extent that US imperialism continues to be the dominant global force that German says it is. There will be further wars, further interventions. But Stop the War, which is at present still
the only significant antiwar organisation in the country, is beginning to make a habit of fucking up. Its decision to invite 'Mother Agnes' to its conference, withdrawn under pressure,
<a href="http://stopwar.org.uk/statements/stop-the-war-statement-mother-agnes-and-the-international-anti-war-conference-on-30-november-2013" target="_blank">
gracelessly and without a serious political explanation</a>, was one example of such. It resulted in a politically disastrous picket of the same conference by Syrian opposition supporters. Now, Lindsey German has publicly aligned Stop the War with a position
that is analytically vacuous, politically derelict, and soft on imperialism. And to expend so much political capital on that, quite unnecessarily, when Russian military intervention is a far more pressing reality than any potential US military intervention...
well, that isn't smart realpolitik either.</div>
</div>
<div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
</div>
</div>
<!-- end group email --></blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p></p>
</div>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div>
<div style="clear:both"> </div>
<table cellspacing="4px" style="margin-top: 20px; margin-bottom: 10px;">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; font-weight: bold; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #FFF; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA ">
<a style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD" href="https://groups.yahoo.com/group/sf-core/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJwNWpyM2x2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzc4OTI2NjMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BG1zZ0lkAzQ3NzQEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxMzk0MTUxMDk3?act=reply&messageNum=4774">Reply via web post</a>
</td>
<td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #FFF; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA; ">
<a href="mailto:brussel@illinois.edu?subject=Re%3A%20%5Bsf-core%5D%20oversimplifying%20Ukraine%20does%20not%20serve%20the%20people" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD;">
Reply to sender </a>
</td>
<td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #FFF; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA; ">
<a href="mailto:sf-core@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5Bsf-core%5D%20oversimplifying%20Ukraine%20does%20not%20serve%20the%20people" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD">
Reply to group </a>
</td>
<td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #FFF; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA; ">
<a href="https://groups.yahoo.com/group/sf-core/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlYjlnbXR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzc4OTI2NjMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM5NDE1MTA5Nw--" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD">Start a New Topic</a>
</td>
<td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #2D50FD; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA; ">
<a href="https://groups.yahoo.com/group/sf-core/message/4771;_ylc=X3oDMTM0cXNvZjhnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzc4OTI2NjMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BG1zZ0lkAzQ3NzQEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDdnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMzk0MTUxMDk3BHRwY0lkAzQ3NzE-" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD;">Messages in this topic</a>
(3)
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<!------- Start Nav Bar ------>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #f2f2f2; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;">
<span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; "><a href="https://groups.yahoo.com/group/sf-core;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNHM4dnBjBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzc4OTI2NjMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM5NDE1MTA5Nw--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a></span>
<ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;">
</ul>
</div>
<div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;">
<a href="https://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZXBmdXFlBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzc4OTI2NjMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzk0MTUxMDk3" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/ru/static/images/yg/img/email/new_logo/logo-groups-137x15.png" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! Groups" style="border: 0;"></a>
<div style="color: #747575; float: right;"> • <a href="https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html" style="text-decoration: none;">Privacy</a> • <a href="mailto:sf-core-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe" style="text-decoration: none;">Unsubscribe</a> • <a href="https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/" style="text-decoration: none;">Terms of Use</a> </div>
</div>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div> <!-- ygrp-msg -->
<!-- Sponsor -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:160px; float:right; clear:none; margin:0 0 25px 0; background: #fff;">
<!-- Start Recommendations -->
<div id="ygrp-reco">
</div>
<!-- End Recommendations -->
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div>
</div>
<img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=7892663/grpspId=1705060375/msgId=4774/stime=1394151097" width="1" height="1"> <br>
<div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__,_._,___</div>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
<!-- end group email -->
</div></blockquote></body></html>